I know that this is something i should know but the fact of the matter is that im a little rusty in this area. I need to know the placement and station type of every bridge console on the following ships (ei:Tactical, Weapons, Conn, First/Second Officer personal consoles, Engineering, that strange one that is usually right beside conn,ect...) ENT-E,Defiant,Voyager,Galaxy,USS Prometheus,USS Equinox,Akira class and Nebula class. The list is quite long but neccesary, anyhelp would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, you can drop the last two right off the bat. There isn't any such thing as an Akira or Nebula bridge design. (Unless you count that of the Prometheus from "Second Sight." I've never seen that one, as it turns out.)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Go here. This is pretty much all the known bridges, including the Nebula-class.
Awww... I was hoping this would be a discussion on the rationale behind placing the bridge control stations in the positions that they are. Nuts.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Well, I don't think we know the whole bridge station listing and positioning for a lot of the bridges we've seen. We've gotten close enough to the stations to read the labels on the bridges of the Enterprise-D, Stargazer, Defiant, and Voyager. I can't remember if we've gotten a clear shot of the labels for the stations on the ST5:TFF Enterprise-A bridge, the ST6:TUC Enterprise-A bridge, and the ST6:TUC Excelsior bridge.
The rest of the bridges, non-canon sources can fill in the gaps. This was done by Franz Joseph and Shane Johnson in their works, for example. I think ST:The Magazine also filled in some blanks on the Sutherland and a few other incidental starships. But for the rest, there isn't much information. I have yet to see information on the side stations for the Enterprise-E (although I think Nemesis might change this) or what that front starboard-side station on the NX-01 is.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
And in the case of bridges from TNG onwards, it's pointless anyway because the whole point of LCARS-cased terminals is that they can be configured to do anything. The early TNG E-D bridge had certain roles assigned to the rearward 5 stations; when it was felt necessary to give Geordi a place to work from on the bridge once he was made Chief Engineer, they changed the assignments. When Jellico took command he changed the assignments, just like that. . .
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:I have yet to see information on... ...or what that front starboard-side station on the NX-01 is.
I believe it was suggested that it was the Engineering station as a recent episode had Trip there.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:When Jellico took command he changed the assignments
Well, he told Riker to change the assignments. Several times.
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
I'll have you know that i am an inspiring author writing a very complicated novel and that in helping me with this you could in fact be adding to the trek universe. (i am in no way a newbie )
[ March 30, 2002, 08:56: Message edited by: koy'peled Oy'tio ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, I'm guessing that would make you an *aspiring* author then, would it not?
Mark
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I'm less than inspired. Aspire to not claim that you inspire people.
And you're a newbie here.. consider this your initiation. And I hardly consider fanfic to add to the Trek universe very much.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Awww... I was hoping this would be a discussion on the rationale behind placing the bridge control stations in the positions that they are. Nuts.
Well, we can make it one. :-)
Here, try this:
I, for one, think it is odd that NX-01 doesn't have a navigator, both in reference to the character development of Mayweather, and also the simple fact that Mayweather ought to be nicely overloaded with his duties.
Character Development: It's not that I've found Mayweather so interesting so far that I want to see him develop more . . . indeed, in all honesty, I find him the least interesting character. But, if he had a pal sitting next to him, they could have gotten more out of him. Many times did we see Sulu and Chekov talking or sharing a meaningful glance when something was up. Wes even got a few decent moments in simply because he sat right next to Data.
High Workload: By the 24th Century, helm and navigation were duties that could be performed by one person, even if that was Wesley. The person at Ops could assist (Data leveling the saucer's descent in Generations), but in normal situations it could be a one-man show. However, it did require huge consoles on some starships (compare Defiant's pilot station and Voyager's huge pilot station to the diminutive helm station on the E-D).
Though the tactical duties on NX-01 are handled at another station (a la the refit 1701), one must still consider the fact that it took two people on 2270's and 2280's era bridges to handle just the guidance and navigation. This, we may assume, was during an era of higher automation and greater computer assistance in such endeavors.
It seems to me that unless there's a navigation support crew somewhere else on the ship but tied in to his station, Mayweather couldn't hope to plot and execute courses with the rapidity we've seen.
Naturally, a large number of factors would affect such things, and I've left several possibilities out. What do you think?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
WTF is your problem? It makes more sense to come here and *ask* people who would know than go wandering around the freakin' shitload of Trek websites looking for something, when someone here can just point you straight to what you're looking for.
I'm happy to help people find stuff.
-MMoM Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
I don't remember anyone slaggin' me off for asking about the American Police Force ranks and organisational structure(s) a while back, or about Navy/Army uniform markings. Quite the opposite - everyone was extremely helpful and went out of their ways to read my request and give links that were very helpful.
If you don't want to help people, stop slagging them off and don't read their threads Vogon Poet!
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Remind me, you're a Brit, right?
Well, get a clue. I merely said what sort of thread this was. I never said people shouldn't help; I never said he shouldn't post this kind of thread. Koy- Koy-, oh, WhateverThe'FuckHisNameIs so far appears to be making a decent contribution here, most examples of this kind of thread are people like that guy over in the Voyager forum asking what class Voyager is, or something equally imbecilic.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The problem is that, on TOS, splitting helm and navigation seemed to be redundant more often then not. We saw on more than one occasion Sulu do everything the navigation station did, including plotting courses.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
On an unrelated note, I am curious why Lee said "assed", rather than "arsed". Honestly, even as an American, I don't think the phrase sounds right as "assed".
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ah, in theory the stations are placed where they would be most accessible by the crew in emergency or in general situations like scanning an astroid for ten days or fighting a Galor Class. I wouldn't want to be stuck at the science station for that long so it better have a view of the viewscreen or another monitor where I can look up useless facts about starships in the fleet. I don't care even if I'm on the Federation's flagship doing this boring task.
[ March 30, 2002, 20:51: Message edited by: Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Tim: I grew up abroad, "ass" was the way I learnt to spell it. It lead to all kinds of hilarity when, say, talking about "ass" as in "donkey." 8)
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
OK Vogon Poet, so I misinterpreted what you meant.
In any case - I am a Brit and
SHOVE IT UP YOU A-R-S-E!
HEHE!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
lets send the bridge guy to that gilsomething guys website, with way too many blue-on-white blueprints and the such? wheres that at again?
btw, i love how a new members thread about a trek topic can degrade to established members telling each other to shove it in their arses in 22 posts or less. god bless flare
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
quote: I'm less than inspired. Aspire to not claim that you inspire people.
quote: And you're a newbie here. Consider this your initiation. And I hardly consider fanfic to add to the Trek universe very much.
quote: Nope, it's another of those "newbie can't be assed to do his own research" threads. . .
I'm not sure what the hell is wrong with you guys but lay the f*ck off, i'm really sure that you have written a three hundred and fifty-two page novel before. and thats just the begining.
And about that aspiring thing, that was somewhat of a typo…and I know what you’re thinking a typo on a three line paragraph is pretty stupid, but sh*t happens to the best of us.
[ March 31, 2002, 18:05: Message edited by: koy'peled Oy'tio ]
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Koy, calm down. That's how we are all the time. We treat newbies like this and we treat established members like this. You're welcome to contribute to this kind of "attitude"
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Time to hijack this thread for the better...
As far as I can tell, The Original Series use of the helm and navigation stations was always a mish-mash of stuff. It seemed that either person sitting their could pilot the ship on their own. Of course, I think it was always up to the helmsman to engage the flight. Plus, it seemed that fire control duties were under the helmsman's and navigator's jurisdictions. And again, either person seemed capable of firing the weapons.
As far I can tell, it seems that the helm and navigation stations were more like a jack-of-all-trades set of stations. The helm had that pop-up sensor viewer that could mimic some of the science station's duties. Tactical, flight control, and security were routed to the same stations as well. The only stations that haven't really been mimicked there are communications and engineering (at least that I know of). I wonder if this was simply a set of stations used for training command-track officers. After all, most of the time we only saw gold-shirts sitting there (although, in "Errand of Mercy" there was a red-shirt at helm and blue-shirt at navigation).
I had hoped that the area at aft on Enterprise's bridge was a navigation area. Considering the limited nature of the ship's navbanks and star charts (hell, even the Vulcan's maps were missing stuff), there has to be a lab onboard where the stellar cartographers are sipping coffee, eating donuts, and making maps. The TNG tech manual made several references to navigation laboratories onboard, an episode of Voyager had Paris altering commands from a navigation center, and I have a vague recollection of something similar being mentioned in TOS (but I may be wrong).
The thing that gets me most about the Enterprise's bridges is the problem of the magical disappearing and reappearing weapons console. Enterprise has one. The Original Series does not. Movies 1 through 3 have one. Movies 5 and 6 kinda sorta have one. The Next Generation has one. I give ST5 and ST6 a questionable status since the tactical station(s) (one in ST5 and two small ones in ST6) seem to be unmanned like the Master Situation station. In Star Trek 2, weapons were fired by Sulu at the helm except for one instance when Chekov fired torpedoes from the weapons station. In Star Trek 3, Scotty fires the torpedoes from navigation. In Star Trek 6, Chekov fires the weapons from navigation. I would say that the launch of the Enterprise-B seemed to stabilize the dedicated weapons console, but I can't think of where how weapons were controlled on the Enterprise-C.
Another thing about bridges in general is that they seem to be doing a crescendo-decrendo. Enterprise's bridge has five manned stations. TOS Enterprise's bridge had, I believe seven or eight. In the TOS movies, there are about ten stations. In TNG, there are eight stations but only three of which are constantly manned. The Defiant had five stations (as did Voyager) that were always manned. But I think the Enterprise-E ruins this effect by going back to eight stations.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Time to hijack this thread for the better...
As far as I can tell, The Original Series use of the helm and navigation stations was always a mish-mash of stuff. It seemed that either person sitting their could pilot the ship on their own. Of course, I think it was always up to the helmsman to engage the flight. Plus, it seemed that fire control duties were under the helmsman's and navigator's jurisdictions. And again, either person seemed capable of firing the weapons.
As far I can tell, it seems that the helm and navigation stations were more like a jack-of-all-trades set of stations. The helm had that pop-up sensor viewer that could mimic some of the science station's duties. Tactical, flight control, and security were routed to the same stations as well. The only stations that haven't really been mimicked there are communications and engineering (at least that I know of). I wonder if this was simply a set of stations used for training command-track officers. After all, most of the time we only saw gold-shirts sitting there (although, in "Errand of Mercy" there was a red-shirt at helm and blue-shirt at navigation).
There was definitely some of the reconfigurability referred to by Okuda in the TNGTM . . . I'm thinking it was "Balance of Terror" where Uhura was ordered by Kirk to man the navigator's station. She hopped up and sat where Stiles had been, but when Kirk asked for hailing frequencies to be opened, she did it right there, and didn't need to go running back to her own comm station.
Sulu definitely had the nifty pop-up tactical display, but without special effort I doubt it provided much more than what you'd basically need for combat.
I recall also that Chekov's navigator station had some engineering elements to it . . . he got a "red light" on one of the impulse vents in "Obsession", which would seem to have been a warning better suited to the Engineering console.
Naturally, a measure of redundancy is a good thing, not to mention reconfigurability . . . but it still seems damn peculiar for Mayweather to be sitting there all by his wee lonesome.
quote:I had hoped that the area at aft on Enterprise's bridge was a navigation area. Considering the limited nature of the ship's navbanks and star charts (hell, even the Vulcan's maps were missing stuff), there has to be a lab onboard where the stellar cartographers are sipping coffee, eating donuts, and making maps. The TNG tech manual made several references to navigation laboratories onboard, an episode of Voyager had Paris altering commands from a navigation center, and I have a vague recollection of something similar being mentioned in TOS (but I may be wrong).
That's a good idea for what it probably ought to be, though it can be darn near anything.
I'd imagine that, especially on older ships, the bridge stations weren't necessarily rigged for direct control of things, but were the order-giving and information-sharing interface, if that makes any sense.
Hmm . . . it probably didn't.
Let's use an example . . . while Spock is cool and the Enterprise computers no doubt were fabulous, I doubt that he was the one poring over every single bit of information the sensors provided. I would think that underlings at other stations throughout the ship were looking over their little bits of information and flagging them to be sent along. Spock, or someone else along the way, could get the bright idea of "Hey, this could be a so-and-so reading", and either just send it along, or get more information out of the underling working with his particular sensor.
This would, if nothing else, help explain what the hell everyone else is doing all the time. Generally during red alert situations, we see everyone in every colored shirt go running around like they are doing something, but we usually only see the bridge crew, engineers, and sometimes the security people doing something worthwhile in alert situations.
quote:The thing that gets me most about the Enterprise's bridges is the problem of the magical disappearing and reappearing weapons console. Enterprise has one. The Original Series does not. Movies 1 through 3 have one. Movies 5 and 6 kinda sorta have one. The Next Generation has one. I give ST5 and ST6 a questionable status since the tactical station(s) (one in ST5 and two small ones in ST6) seem to be unmanned like the Master Situation station. In Star Trek 2, weapons were fired by Sulu at the helm except for one instance when Chekov fired torpedoes from the weapons station. In Star Trek 3, Scotty fires the torpedoes from navigation. In Star Trek 6, Chekov fires the weapons from navigation. I would say that the launch of the Enterprise-B seemed to stabilize the dedicated weapons console, but I can't think of where how weapons were controlled on the Enterprise-C.
Unless I'm mistaken, Yar took over the tactical station, which was placed where Ops would be aboard the E-D. Of course, given the damage to the ship, any dedicated tactical station may have been down, leading Costillo to reconfigure Ops for tactical duties (since he kinda figured they were about to go get into some shit).
quote:Another thing about bridges in general is that they seem to be doing a crescendo-decrendo. Enterprise's bridge has five manned stations. TOS Enterprise's bridge had, I believe seven or eight. In the TOS movies, there are about ten stations. In TNG, there are eight stations but only three of which are constantly manned. The Defiant had five stations (as did Voyager) that were always manned. But I think the Enterprise-E ruins this effect by going back to eight stations.
Just to add another wrench to the works, Generations showed the Enterprise bridge with ten stations, with at least five (including the two new ones) constantly manned.
Another peculiar aspect about the E-E is that the conn and ops stations are so frickin' tiny. The E-D ops station, for example, had the large flat area, with auxiliary controls running down the left-hand side. The E-E ops station appears to have even less control space than the flat panel area on the E-D, and worse yet, it's all wrapped around, 180 degrees of wee little things to look at. Then, of course, there's the ops station on Voyager, which not only has the space of the E-D, but a little side area and a whole huge wall area for Harry to play in. Makes the tiny E-E ops station seem even more silly.
No wonder, then, that the E-E needs more stations. You've gotta break up the workload among more people when you replace everyone's desktop with a handheld PDA. Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
well thank you Dat it is nice to know that i'm not being singled out.
[ April 01, 2002, 10:19: Message edited by: koy'peled Oy'tio ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
One thing people always seem to forget is that every single person of the 430 on Enterprise must have had a job to do (besides being the unlucky wearer of the red shirt). A lot of people think that a starship could be run by 7 people from the bridge, but the truth is it would just fall apart without the lower decks doing their jobs. (actually it did fall apart.. in 'The Search for Spock', running the ship by automation failed in no time flat)
This includes dozens of grunts who actually run around phaser rooms, to target and fire them (seen in 'Balance of Terror', the yellow jumpsuit guys Tomlinson commanded, analogous to the assorted extra grunts that seemed to be required for torpedo launching in 'The Wrath of Khan'); lots of engineers and probably shuttle pilots, nurses, scientists, etc etc, and probably map technicians (BTW, 'The Corbomite Maneuver' began on the bridge with photographing starcharts, an activity which involved several of the bridge officers.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: btw, i love how a new members thread about a trek topic can degrade to established members telling each other to shove it in their arses in 22 posts or less. god bless flare
Oh goodie! Have I set a new Flare record!??
quote:Originally posted by koy’peled Oy’tio: well thank you Dat it is nice to know that i'm not being singled out.
Naw . . . it's just our way of saying "hello"
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
We keep discussing whether or not to invite him on one of the UK Flareites' nights out, but always decide not to. 8)
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Guardian2000: Actually, I think Sulu's popup tactical scanner did have a fair bit of flexibility to it. In one of the episodes where Kirk and Spock on lost on a planet surface (I think it was "Who Mourns for Adonis?" but I'm not sure) where Sulu is scanning the entire planet surface for their life signs with the scanner. I also believe that "The Lights of Zetar" show it being used for scientific purposes (in this case detecting the navigational hazard coming up: the Zetars). So... the helm/nav unit seemed to be a model for flexibility and redundancy that would come with LCARS.
CaptainMike stole my example of showing what you said as well. The bridge in The Original Series was simply a command center. Orders were giving from the bridge and sent to the crew members operating a particular part of the ship to execute the commands. Case in point, Tomlinson's phaser crew in "Balance of Terror." Plus, I believe targetemployee cited an example from another TOS episode where Spock has the nuclear engineering lab working on a problem. So, basically, every crew member on these ships has a job to do, whether it's manning a torpedo bay, monitoring antimatter pods, plotting navigational routes, or mopping up vomit in the mess hall. So, you make sense.
In many ways, the bridge of The Original Series matchs how I think the stations should be laid out. There's plenty of room for the crew members to sit and the controls and screens are all aligned for comfort. However, things aren't so spaced out that the CO (in a prime location) can't swivel around and read what the screens say (my big complaint with bridges like the Enterprise-D where it's incredibly spacey and where a lot of views are obstructed). For the good layouts also come the bad, though. I really don't like how three important stations -- Communications, Science, and Engineering -- face away from the main viewer. Indeeed, Kirk always had to swivel around a good deal to face them. Star Trek 2 corrected this by placing them more or less even with the command chair on either side. But, for effective of all possible control space, you're going to have someone facing the wrong direction.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I believe the "popup" display on Sulu's console was just that: a display. It was a computer monitor that could show him whatever he wanted. I'm sure he could have watched porn on it if he'd wanted to, assuming there was any in the ship's computer.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Well, with Kirk getting all the woman love on the Enterprise, I'd be willing to bet my life savings that the computer had a massive collection of pornography.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
On the good side, at least Voyager did show a (slightly larger and more voluminous than a) Constitution-sized ship running with far less crew.
Most of the time, though, it seems as if starships are overcrewed, given the constant attention on the center seat and close friends. But, that's just a matter of perspective.
I guess we're sort of in the position of someone who only knew of the United States through the television show West Wing, and was forced to wonder what the hell the other 259,999,900 people in the country were up to all the time.
G2k
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:I guess we're sort of in the position of someone who only knew of the United States through the television show West Wing, and was forced to wonder what the hell the other 259,999,900 people in the country were up to all the time.
Porn. Lots and lots of it.
Really, though, I don't think there's really been a sci-fi series that has actually shown what the rest of the crew does. We've seen background actors playing on consoles, but for all we know they're playing FreeCell or Minesweeper. I suppose that focusing on just the senior staff is a necessary device of the medium. You need focus on a few people, otherwise story-telling gets too bogged down and goes no where.
Of course, Andromeda solved this problem by getting rid of almost all of the 4000+ crew and having a super AI do everything they did.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: We keep discussing whether or not to invite him on one of the UK Flareites' nights out, but always decide not to. 8)
Who? Me? Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yes. 8P
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote: Really, though, I don't think there's really been a sci-fi series that has actually shown what the rest of the crew does. We've seen background actors playing on consoles, but for all we know they're playing FreeCell or Minesweeper.
There is that B5 episode were the whole episode focuses on two maintenence crew "Bo and Mac". They do run into the main cast - but only briefly... They whole episode revolves around their day on B5. GREAT episode.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Yes. 8P
Awwwwwww! I wanna come! Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeas?!?!?!? I promise to be good.
Posted by U//Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Maybe, if, you know, you toned down the whole 'terribly annoying git' thing. Or something.
[ April 05, 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: U//Magnus ]
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by U//Magnus: Maybe, if, you know, you toned down the whole 'terribly annoying git' thing. Or something.
Huh? What? When? How? Why? I wanna cry! Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
That, right there, is what he means.
Oh well, we'll get over it.
Hey lets switch the helm and ops again.. the fanboys heads will spin for a week!
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: That, right there, is what he means.
Oh well, we'll get over it.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Next time, we'll think about it. 'Course, I mean the next next time, because the next time is when (hopefully) a couple of the gang might be able to make it to my wedding. There's a strict "only people we've met" rule that we even applied to my brother's new Brazilian probably-illegal-immigrant girlfriend. 8)
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Right on Monkey man. Many is the time that I have asked people for data. And I've volunteered it a time or two.
Out of all the "tech" fans, we have a wide enough interest base that if someone asked where the "farfangle perpterizer" was mounted, SOMEBODY would end up being an expert on same.
Personally, I don't mind being utilized as a resource, so long as the asker is polite.
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