I had this idea a long time ago, and doodled it... anyway using a starship chart I just threw this together after having my memory jogged.
Do you reckon this could work - useful for the Dominion War.
I.e. The Defiant Class starship wouldn't just sit there - it would dock and undock like a saucer from it's engine section...
Andrew
[ April 12, 2002, 09:20: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
An x in a box? Frightful.
Oh, now it works. Why would the Defiant need a launching system, though? It might make sense as a mobile repair station, to conduct repairs the ship's crew couldn't do on their own ... but, aside for that, I don't think the Defiant needs a "carrier" ... (next, we'll see Galaxy-Class starships getting towed around by other ships, too).
[ April 11, 2002, 08:47: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snayer ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
...fixed!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Nah... The only reason to do something like this would be to extend the operational range of the Defiant. However, we know that this isn't terribly necessary; the Defiant has made multiple trips to Earth without any apparent complaint, and the USS Valiant's mission was in fact to circumnavigate the whole Federation. The class apparently isn't complaining about durability.
I remember some schmoe who designed this ginormous Galaxy variant with a huge internal bay capable of "ferrying 2-4 Defiant-class escorts into battle". That idea didn't last long.
Mark
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
But the surprise punch might have interesting applications..... This should go in to the thread on the Defiant, this would increase endurance.....
But 1 ship being carried is a litle off, at least 4 to make it worth while. Maybe turn some run abouts in to gun boats, or something to like that, for comabt, or, for exploration, turn them in to portable labs/manned sensor pods.....
Carriers are not a bad idea, power projection is a must for even the least military-acting military that wants to be a superpower.....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I could see this being useful with a Defiant-like ship, perhaps. Scale the class down even more, so that it's just a phaser cannon attached to an engine, and you might need some other ship to take your flying gun to where you need it.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Let me guess... the name of the Defiant is 'USS Blind Duck', right?
There was a comic ages ago that showed a Bird of Prey docked at the rear end of the Excelsior (don't ask me how that should work), then we have my infamous 'multiple-holoship-mega-troop-transport-idea' (yes, it's still there, and one day I'll show you how it should look), and someone once attached a large shuttlebay to the pylon, from the pod's position to the bridge of the ship (attached with two smaller pylons there), making the ship a 'modular through-deck cruiser' or whatever you want to call it.
But this idea is...err...different. Maybe the Nebula could act as a supply ship, just like today's air refueling planes. To transfer new torpedos or something like that. Not necessarily a permanent connection, just for stop-and-go's.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
If that's the case, I wouldn't use a Nebula, as much as a simpler logistics ship with rapid service ability (with a smile). Anyone remembert eh Fabrux-class?
Mark
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I just think it's really nifty that I have a ship named after me. Well, my previous pseudonym, anyways... Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
"Captain, the Romulans are closing!" "Launch Attack Starship!"
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Haha! I love it!
This brings an interesting idea about the Nebula class (as some people know, a favorite of mine) and its fabled multiple missions role. Perhaps certain members of the class could be outfitted to act as "mobile starbases". It could pick up ships with major damage and help repair the ship while allowing the crew to stay on board the Nebula and provide medical care.
While this can be done by other large ships like the Galaxy, Starfleet could have these special Nebula class ships manned with more engineers, medical staff, and technical people to help speed up repairs, etc. The ship could also carry extra fuel for other ships (damaged or not) to far away from a starbase or unable to go back to dock due to mission priorities, etc. Another thing we have to remember is that besides the Galaxy, Nebula, Ambassador, and possibly Sovereign and Excelsior, most of the other ships in Starfleet are smaller and might not be able to support, help repair, and provide aid to the distressed ship's crew.
A tanker, medical ship, and repair ship all in one!
[ April 11, 2002, 18:49: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I think this touches the other Defiant-related discussion we're currently having. What kind of support does a starship really require, and how often?
Fueling has never been an issue for the TOS, TNG or DS9 starships on screen. And sometimes, starships appear to plunge into years-long adventures without paying any attention to fuel replenishment. However, Kirk did receive those "fuel consumption reports" to sign whenever the writers needed an excuse to have a pretty little thing on the bridge standing eagerly next to the good captain. So perhaps fuel consumption *was* an issue, and we just never really noticed.
So make fuel replenishment one of the jobs of a tender ship. You don't need a Nebula for that job, but it does make sense to have a large tanker from which several ships can suckle. It wouldn't be smart to build a small tanker that has to catch up with a single starship and then fly back for a refill, catch up the next ship etc. Better let the starships do the catching up and come to one centrally located (and hopefully protectively escorted) tanker.
Crew rotation is something a small ship like an Oberth could handle - and we did see exactly that in TNG. Small ships could also deliver crucial and unreplicable spares or evacuate casualties, or bring aboard new and interesting samples. This assumes the small tenders are about as fast as the big ship, or else the tenders wouldn't expedite anything - they'd just slow things down.
Ammunition replenishment is probably an issue. Torpedo casings or warheads or other components may not be completely unreplicable, but they aren't easily replaced, either - both the Voyager and the Defiant faced torpedo shortages at times when the replicators were producing food and other simple items well enough.
Should a munitions ship be big or small? Should the munitions be carried aboard a tanker? IMHO, it's a good idea to combine ammo and fuel replenishment - both are things that are naturally risky, and would be prime targets to enemy armies or pirates. And both are probably needed equally often in wartime or rarely in peacetime. High fuel consumption could be a feature of intense combat maneuvering, not of calm cruising. Remember that the TNG TM claims the M/ARA "wastes" excess deuterium at low warp factors; perhaps "cruise speed" is the speed at which this "relative wasting" of matter at low speeds and the "absolute consumption" of matter and antimatter at high speeds are best balanced...
What about repairs? Could a tanker/munitions ship be a repair vessel or a tug at the same time? I don't think so - repairs may tie up an auxiliary vessel to her patient for a long time, and towing is something done on only one vessel at a time, both excellent reasons for having numerous small ships instead of few large ones.
I'd say we've seen the spares/crew rotation ship already - it's the Oberth. We haven't seen a tanker/munitions ship yet, but she's probably a dedicated design. The small tug from "Time to Stand" we have seen already, and probably the Ptolemy class is a tug, too. And as for repair ships, we either haven't seen them yet, or then those drydocks are more mobile than they look.
So in general, I wouldn't want to tie up any Nebulas to tender, tanker or repair ship duties. They are ill fitted to that, in some ways too good to be wasted and in other ways too poor to perform the role.
However, a Nebula can do warp 9.6 (or 9.7 with O'Brien enhancements), IIRC. A Defiant barely manages warp 9.5 when on nitrox. So there may be something to using a Nebula as a "carrier" for a Defiant...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
The way that I would design a fuel replenishment system would be to deliver antimatter loaded in containment bottles and transfer bottles from refueling ships to warpships. That would be a lot safer than pumping antimatter from a fuel bunker of a tanker through transfer pipes to a warship. Each part of that long transfer conduit would have to be shielded to prevent inaction with matter and possible supercooled, if antideuterium has to be slushy.
As for torpedoes, they're pretty small, not much bigger than a man. I'd think that ships should be able to carry many more than they supposedly do. Refit Connies carry less than 100, although their total volume is probably less than 200 m^2.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Why less than 100? Didn't we see several hundred implied by the monitor display in ST6?
The small Defiant had "only" 45 torpedoes left in "What We Leave Behind". Perhaps we should treat the "Conundrum" figure of 250 torpedoes for the E-D in the same way - this was what was left out of possibly thousands at the time (or what was carried in peacetime in magazines capable of taking much more), and the memory-deprived Worf simply didn't realize that 250 was a low-end figure. Or, despite the Satarran claims that the memory-wipe preserved the technical skills of the crew, perhaps Worf was simply reading the display wrong.
Or perhaps it's much like WWII, where US submarines sailed out without torpedoes because US torpedoes just couldn't be called "weapons" with a straight face. The torp launchers are there, but Starfleet is still waiting for a weapon worthy of being launched by them.
I agree antimatter should be moved in self-contained pods, which in turn would be held within a second layer of containment aboard the tanker. Deuterium in turn should be stored "in bulk", perhaps in the "slush" form suggested in the TNG TM. So a Trek tanker might be a cross-breed of a container ship (with easy exterior access to the pods, once the outer containment structure or forcefield is retracted) and a classic liquid tanker.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I was thinking more along the lines of the Defiant attachment being a scout ship/separation a la Prometheus from Message in a Bottle - i.e. something to take along in missions to/through hostile territory... or yeah I like the ideas of the Nebbie being some sort of 'mother ship/refueler'.
But basically the Deffie attachment would make one hell of an auxillary craft for that Nebbie!
Docking/connection would be fine - the shuttle bay 'hole' could be used for through access.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
This is my idea of the trrop transport (I mentioned it above), if you like it, maybe I'll expand it and make a real drawing (this one is a 5-minute-sketch, only to show you the basic idea).
Sorry being off-topic, will be back later;
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
For a modern counterpart for the multi-purpose Fast Combat Support Ships, now, in Trek a Nebula-Class would/could fill this roll, especially the combat part......
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Given the modular design of the Nebula, presumeably it wouldn't be too hard for Starfleet to design a transport/armoury/refueling attatchment to go on that pylon. Granted, it would probably be large and ugly but I'm not sure that'd stop Starfleet...
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
When I read in the E-D blueprints booklet that Andy Probert had originally designed the "battle section" to be a small ship that dropped out of the bottom of the saucer like the yacht, I did a bit of thinking & actually incorporated this into a physical model. It worked, & quite well. I should refine the design a bit one day.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
There might have been more screens, but when watching the movie I had assumed this screen represent their full complement.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I've just read one of the Double Helix books (yeah, yeah, I know, not canon) and they describe a Combat Support Tender; it is 200 metres long and has three decks and is described as being a 'heavy-laden, multipurpose vessel made to support more specialised Starfleet vessels. We carry structural and weapons-repair specialists, material, fuel, ammunition and dry stores.' At one point is is also said to have an 'asteroid breaker bow'. Thoughts?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
3 decks and 200 meters would suggest that that kind of ship must be even more crowded than a Defiant class ship.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I also had an idea for a troop transport/planetary assault transport/colony ship. My design tries to focus on dual-use capabilities, because the Federation doesn't like to maintain full time combat support vessels, especially ones of invasive nature, I have to sell the design as a part-time colony ship.
The class would have been a new hull design (a generally box-like structure to maximize internal space), but with certain reused components like Ambassador class nacelles (I'm not kitbashing, simply trying to keep costs down). The length would be somewhere in the 500-600m range.
Defensive shielding comes from uprated shield generators taken off old Ambassador class ships. Same with the weapons and torpedoe launcher to keep cost down. The phasers are modified for better performance against surface targets at the price of being less effective against starships, and are intended for precision ground support in war or drilling for ore or water in peace. The torpedoe launchers would deploy probes in peacetime to help colonists chart and study whatever they need to. In war time... Well, you know. In any case, most of her weapons are located in a position for planetary bombardment, and her shields are focused to protect against planetary defenses. She isn't suppose to fight starships.
Extra hull protection is provided by a layer of resiliant external plating. This plating is not actually standard armor but large sheets of pre-fabricated materials which can be removed and used for construction of orbital facilities or transported down to the planet surface for ground facility constructions. This saves internal cargo space for other things. It also makes the return trip quicker because of the reduced mass.
There would be large internal cargo holds/living areas (they're inter-exchangable with simple modifications) to accommondate either troops or colonists (I'm thinking ~12000 as a good load). Since the vessel is intended for long colony transport voyages, there would be holodecks available to keep the colonists occupied (and would be used for training practice in combat).
She'd have more secondary power than a Galaxy class starship from having many spare fusion reactors onboard, which are hooked up to the ship during transit to help run the extra lifesupport and holodecks, and off-loaded upon reaching her destination to help support newly-established colonies or ground bases. The extra power isn't needed once the colonists/troops are off.
There would be a large shuttle bay that can be used to deploy anything from work bees to strike fighters to assault shuttles to orbital weapons to components for weather control satellites. She can deploy subspace relay stations for colonies she's about to plant herself. There would also be extensive machine shops onboard to help this.
Most of the transporters onboard will be large capacity cargo transporters. The main method of transporting ground troops would be assault shuttles, since it's likely a defending planet would have some sort of transporter scrambler setup. The cargo transporters are also useful for getting bulk equipement and supplies down at the price of being less efficient for transporting people.
There would be also 4-6 special extra large assault/transport shuttles, each capable of ferrying at least one combat hoppers plus ground to the surface (think LCACs). Because of their size, they are stored in special slots on the hull, rather than taking up space in the shuttle bays. In peacetime they can help ferry bulk colonist equipment.
A ship like this is best suited for establishing colonies quickly, or assaulting well-garrisoned enemy holdings.
[ April 14, 2002, 17:54: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:3 decks and 200 meters would suggest that that kind of ship must be even more crowded than a Defiant class ship.
Faulty logic. It would only be crowded if it had a large crew. In the book it had a command crew of maybe a dozen, and a unit of engineers. Figure 25-35 people onboard, and its not too bad. Plus, it wasn't a cruising vessel, and as a (combat) utility ship, it might have been docked when not in use, so the crew 'goes home to sleep' rather than using the quarters aboard often (like the Defiant)
Besides, you dont even know the width.. if it were 500 meters wide, itd have plenty of room Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Given the modular design of the Nebula, presumeably it wouldn't be too hard for Starfleet to design a transport/armoury/refueling attatchment to go on that pylon. Granted, it would probably be large and ugly but I'm not sure that'd stop Starfleet...
Why not just as a dock for the Defiant class... for added security in hostile situations - i.e. the Dominion war... turns one ship into two...
Thinking about the ships that could do this, I think the Defiant is the only on (we've seen) with the shape that could pull this off. I guess it all depends as to what comes out the top of that 'stalk' of the Nebbie.
[ April 14, 2002, 22:13: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
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