Ooh, another book to tear apart.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yes, we'll finally find out for sure that Qo'noS is only 1.2 light-years away from Earth, and that the Enterprise can make it 100 light-years away in only six months!
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
*Whips out his seldom-used twin portable chroniton torpedo launchers*
Bring it on. Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Im thinking I'm avoiding this one like the plague
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Why, might I ask?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
See Minutiae Man's post.. there's no way this could ever make sense.. its just going to be a rather prodigious misuse of glossy paper
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, of course it won't make sense. But neither do starship registries, and we dry-hump them all the same.
Besides, since when has a Trek reference book had to be utterly free from any inherent errors in the Trek universe in order to be good? Yes, it'll never be a rock-solid map of the galaxy that the writers will religiously adhere-to, and most likely it'll never explain away all the inconsistencies Trek's accrued in its geography over 35 years. So fucking what. That's certainly not the author's fault and shouldn't be a slight against the book. I'm expecting a very pretty-looking, very interesting little read, that as much as any map ever could gain semicanon status, will. And if anyone's qualified to write this thing, it's Mandel.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I agree with the_Tom. It'll be a good read. Give us something else to argue about at the very least Posted by Dan Stack (Member # 516) on :
I agree that Mandel, having authored the original Star Trek Maps, is definitely a good person to author this one. He came up with chi factors back around 1980, perhaps he'll write an explanation for the quick trip to the Klingons... Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
What the fuck is this? The charts in october, Unseen Frontier in November and Nemesis in December? What the hell am I supposed to do this summer? Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Masturbate?
Posted by YrdMehc (Member # 417) on :
Dang it Snayer, that was the ecact thought to tell him when I read the post......
or you could visit the 'real world' V2.0.....
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snayer: Masturbate?
Kill all the deers you want, but leave the kittens alone.
I'm strangely drawn to the book, even though I know that it'll be fighting a losing battle against the Trek Inconsistency Demon.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snayer: Masturbate?
All the summer?
quote:Originally posted by YrdMehc: or you could visit the 'real world' V2.0.....
Tried it. Don't like it. Think I go masturbate then...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Remember though, UF has been delayed...
Mark
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Well, the new Trek RPG stuff starts coming out **tomorrow** and a new book will be out almost every month.
Star Trek RPG Player's Guide April 2002 Star Trek RPG Narrator's Guide May 2002 Narrator's Screen June 2002 Limited Edition Set June 2002 Starfleet Operations Manual July 2002 Personal Log Aug. 2002 Starships Sept. 2002 Aliens Oct. 2002 Creatures Nov. 2002 Worlds Jan. 2003 The Mirror Universe Feb. 2003
I know it ain't canon, but it looks as though it'll be pretty interesting anyway.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Perhaps I was a bit harsh-sounding in my first comment. I'm still definitely interested in this book, and I'd love to take a look at some "official" rationalizations for various cartographical elements of the Trek universe.
I know that not everything can be rationalized or easily explained... but then, it's not the mapmaker's fault that the NX-01 only goes Warp 5 for four days -- it's the writers.
I'd be more concerned about portraying three-dimensional space on a two-dimensional page. Stellar cartography is really something that should wait for viable holographic technology. Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Regarding the seeming onscreen inconsistency with regard to the trip to Kronos:
The official Paramount rules are that onscreen is canon and everything else is official (except for everything that isn't official). Hence, while it is perfectly acceptable to include anything Star Trek with a Paramount logo on it -- novels, tech manuals, whatever -- nothing from that set can override canon. Not even Okuda/Sternbach. Since it's canon that warp factors change speeds, they change speeds.
It's damaging to argue with Paramount about their canon policy. After all, they have a right to say what Star Trek ought to be, as Star Trek is their property. The whole point of these discussions should be to improve the Star Trek universe. To make it internally consistent and rational, to analyse it as a historian would, using present-day analogies and known laws of physics where these apply. It also means including any official Paramount sources where they fit. Any fandom sources will stand or fall by the virtue of how well they explain the canon.
That's why I think is stupid to blame the writers for things like reaching Warp 10 just because the TNGTM said it's infinite speed. Before the TNGTM came out, TNG mentioned twice that reaching or passing Warp 10 is not simply reaching infinite speed (Geordi: "we have passed Warp 10", Riker: "Warp 10 is necessary for time travel" or something like that). Even if it's an artifact of warp drive that Warp 10 requires infinite energy (hence speeding you up incredibly as you add more energy), remember that it's an artifact of impulse drive that lightspeed requires infinite energy. In transwarp terms, Warp 10 may well be a finite speed.
In this case, we've seen that warp factors change speeds numerous times. It could easily be 30 million km/s one minute, and 10 billion in another. Ron D. Moore has even said so. Yet people still cling to TNGTM as if Okuda and Sternbach were the executive producers of Star Trek.
Anyone who does that is creating their own vision of Star Trek, and while that's everybody's right, the side effect is that such person is in competition with the all-powerful licensed Star Trek, which strives to a consistency of its own. If, on the other hand, we focus our energies to work within the scope of licensed Star Trek (meaning that the theories are consistent with the show first and any official books second), the result is a consistency between the official sources -- such as novels and tech manuals -- and the show. Which can't be that bad.
[ April 23, 2002, 21:30: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
In brief: Cover background, minus galaxy drawing and NX-01 pic, is the 35 ly or so around Earth in Archer's time (with what I assume is the founding border of the Federation shaded in). I've retouched the names as best as my eyes can discern. A few surprises (Andoria), buttloads of Ent-era planets, and a home for Deneva, among other things.
What I think is "Rigel" X appears to be 32 ly away. Kronos is at least 40.
I don't think I'll ever get invited to a party again.
[ April 24, 2002, 02:11: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'd say "Andoria" is a big surprise. Mandel seemed to be going the route of using as much fan stuff / his own old stuff as possible, and then he makes Epsilon Indi some two-bit no-name world... Unless he's privy to something the Enterprise writing staff knows about Andorians, and nobody else does yet!
The Rigel X positioning looks okay to me, although at one point Mandel pondered using an alternate spelling to make clear that this star had nothing to do with Beta Orionis. "Ryjal" might have been cool...
40 ly per four days is about ten times as fast as the Okuda tables would have us believe. A fudge factor of ten either way doesn't mean squat when one discusses distances and travel times within the Alpha quadrant (there are acceleration and deceleration times to consider, and the trips are so short that even a 1000% error doesn't necessarily show). But it does mean that Voyager's maximum speed as quoted by Janeway must be "erroneously interpreted" by Okuda/Sternbach - on a 75-year trip, a factor-of-ten error would certainly show prominently.
Then again, I've always wanted to adjust the higher end of the Okuda scale - although usually up, not down...
Timo Saloniemi
P.S. The Deneva placement is as per yours truly. Nyah, nyah. I put it there mainly because I had a location for Ingraham B (from the "Conspiracy" wall map - to the far right, beyond Romulus) and wanted to draw a nice line that would lead the flying pancake things from outside the known galaxy through Ingraham B and the other worlds of "Operation: Annihilate!" into a traffic hub within the UFP, and the only way I could do that practically was to put Deneva to the lower right of Earth. And Mandel then took a thing or two from my map, with permission. Not that the straight-line assumption made much sense, mind you...
[ April 24, 2002, 05:30: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: What the fuck is this? The charts in october, Unseen Frontier in November and Nemesis in December? What the hell am I supposed to do this summer?
Ahem...STAR WARS?
-MMOM Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Cursed two words of my existence. The bane of my life, I hate it and avoid it like the plague. never ever bring those two words near me again. Real Life... I mean... Star Wars.
Star Wars will not do was well as it should due to the SW TMP crap. If you notice its nothing like it was a few years ago. I mean even though it was like that because a moive like that hasn't been made for years.
Plus in addition there are very strong competition near E-2. Spider Man, etc.
It will do good, just not as much as Star Wars should do.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Ahem...STAR WARS?
-MMOM
Oh, good idea.
Left of the 'S' from Star Charts is a yellow spot: Zeta Bootis. Where the right pylon and the nacelle meet, there's Barnard's Star Below your 'Quadrant' from Alpha Quadrant: Ma Cassiopeiae (?) Below 82 Eridani: Gamma Eridani (?) Below Deneva Prime: Gamma 404 (Also known as the 'Access forbidden'-colony, right?) Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Yeah... a lot of legible ones with little bearing on Trek I left unmarked.
BTW, Tenebia was declared to be Alpha Comae Beres. just by process of elimination of names that could fit. I couldn't find a site that would tell me how far away from Earth it is... Anyone know if that's actually the right location?
The dotted lines linking worlds seem a little weird. I'm not sure if they're just well-worn spacelanes or have something to do with Chi-factoring or what. Colour may have something to do with it... white ones seem to correspond to routes undertaken by Boomers, for instance. The NX-01's route is in green en route to Kronos (there's a double-headed arrow that makes me scratch my head a bit) but then doesn't seem to appear anywhere near Terra Nova, unless the whole shading process from the galaxy image on top makes the lines look the wrong colour.
Weren't we given a timeframe by Travis for a trip to the Vega Colony from Draylax by boomer freighter? By the map it looks close to 23 ly. Might give an idea how much low-warp factors are being inflated, if anything.
The ultimate fanboy project may well be reconstructing this book in some kind of 3D app.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Below Deneva Prime: Gamma 404 (Also known as the 'Access forbidden'-colony, right?)"
Error Gamma-404: The colony you requested could not be found in this sector. The course you followed may be out-of-date. Please inform the commanding officer of the referring starbase.
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
quote:Kill all the deers you want, but leave the kittens alone.
I wasn't suggesting I was going to do it ... besides, I've got a kitten. She's so cute. I can't masturbate. How would I feel if she died? "NOoooOOooOOooooOooOoO!"
[ April 24, 2002, 11:28: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snayer ]
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: In this case, we've seen that warp factors change speeds numerous times. It could easily be 30 million km/s one minute, and 10 billion in another. Ron D. Moore has even said so. Yet people still cling to TNGTM as if Okuda and Sternbach were the executive producers of Star Trek.
Dude, I hate it when people do this. You aren't reading all of the TNG TM, and it's in the same paragraph. The TNG TM specifically states that the Warp Scale shown in it is a BASE SCALE ["The actual values are dependent upon interstellar conditions... and fluctuations in the subspace domain"]! It's like an engine that runs on x gas gives y speed on a flat plane. It's a base scale.
If there is a bad flux in subspace then what is shown on the TNG TM scale as warp one might only get you to .5c for the same power level as warp 1 [which is what, 10 to the fourth power?]. If there is a good flux in subspace then the same amount of power might actually get you up to 2c.
It's a cop out in some ways, but Warp Highways basically help explain all those time differentials we've heard so much about.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:It's a cop out in some ways, but Warp Highways basically help explain all those time differentials we've heard so much about.
In a way, they also help explain Voyager's frequent changing of routes and apparently inconsistent travel times.
The obvious solution to get home would be to travel in a straight line directly from Ocampa to Earth. What's quicker than a straight line?
However, if they could actually chart these "warp highways" by using the astrometrics sensors (which were treated as a major help when first unveiled in season four) then that would help them chart a path that was longer in distance but shorter in travel time.
Other examples would include Q giving Janeway a slightly faster route home in the hated "Q2", and Starfleet sending Voyager some astrometrics/cartographical data in that data stream from season four.
Yeah, the idea of inconsistent warp factors is a cop-out, but who cares? It's actually a kind of fun idea, IMO.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I didn't hate Q2...
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I didn't hate Q2...
...but there could have been a better farewell for Q.
Remember TNG. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
More or less a ship should be able to plot the subspace topography of an area of space at least 20 light-years out in varying detail. However, the problem with this is you might be going down a narrow corridor for 50 light years and then all of the sudden it will end, and you have to go through normal or *gasp* *horror* you might have to start going up hill.
Astrometrics might have increased sensor resolution some, and helped predict the future subspace topography... but it would never be able to totally map out the route home. I would place my money on Starfleet sending out data from long range probes being of great help in "Message in a Bottle" I would also say that the Hirogen arrays would have helped if Seven could have hacked into their sensors. --- Trading with alien species that have been around before would have been helpful too.
It would have been really nice to be able to transport away teams to different planets using that long range transporter from one of the early season episodes [Seska, Torres, and Tuvok tried to steal it... can't remember the name of the ep though]. Those away teams could set up sensor arrays on those far off planets [even planets that are uninhabitable could be transported too from what I could gather about the technology].
Something else I don't get is why they didn't set up a communications relay on the furthest possible location [even if that was space]. It could be possible that a message sent from that location could reach Earth much sooner than "Message in a bottle."
Oh well, I'm digressing too much... I got my point across, no matter how much refitting to Voyager's system, I doubt they could make resolution better after 20 ly.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
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Nyah, nyah. I put it there mainly because I had a location for Ingraham B (from the "Conspiracy" wall map - to the far right, beyond Romulus) and wanted to draw a nice line that would lead the flying pancake things from outside the known galaxy through Ingraham B and the other worlds of "Operation: Annihilate!" into a traffic hub within the UFP, and the only way I could do that practically was to put Deneva to the lower right of Earth. And Mandel then took a thing or two from my map, with permission. Not that the straight-line assumption made much sense, mind you...![[Frown]](frown.gif)