Talks about numbers of screws/propellers (no comments Monkey) in a ways that seem like we could adapt to nacelles on ST ships. Perhaps even the funky Vulcan ships.
I suppose anything adapted would better fit in the creative forum - but we can start here can't we?
[ May 14, 2002, 04:21: Message edited by: Toadkiller ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
So far all we have seen on Vulcan ships is a single ring perhaps thick or thin, on each ship. I wonder why the Vulcans perfer the ring nacelle better than the single 'rod' nacelle that most species use.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
"Most"? Considering the sheer number of species and ships that Voyager introduced, I really doubt that.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Maybe it's just the first one they thought up, so they stuck w/ it.
Posted by Mirror Bashir (Member # 818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: So far all we have seen on Vulcan ships is a single ring perhaps thick or thin, on each ship. I wonder why the Vulcans perfer the ring nacelle better than the single 'rod' nacelle that most species use.
The logical choice. (Sorry, bad joke.)
Posted by Niytaan (Member # 820) on :
Well, don't know about the rings, but the 'tube' nacelle design probably originates from the design of fuel-combustion rockets.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Why on Earth would those two things have anything in common?
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Warship1.com is certainly getting a good work out.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Crackpot theory & silly analogy #42111:
Perhaps the nacelle is the Trek equivalent of a paddle wheel, and the ring is the screw propeller. The former can be invented with minimal research, and has inherently low efficiency. The latter requires more research or innovation, but can be refined to better ultimate performance.
Except that in the case of warp drives, the properties of "paddle wheel" and "screw propeller" are reversed in one crucial respect: the former is inherently resilient to combat damage, while the latter is highly vulnerable. So the peaceful Vulcans are the only ones to persist with the more efficient "screw" ring, while the more warlike races are more inclined to refine their primitive but durable "wheel" nacelles.
The Borg, of course, have the superior "screw" type drive, housed in the big "First Contact" -style torus inside their nigh-invulnerable ships...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Do we have any valuable theories as to what is going on in the ringwarp engines, anyway?
I see but a few easy possibilities:
1. Extremely large field coils, of the sort one might find in the Galaxy Class, but on a tremendous scale, with analogs to the upper and lower pairs of coils extending all the way around the upper and lower halves of the ring.
2. Numerous pairs of coils, not too different perhaps than even the NX class coils, rigged so that each pair is turned laterally about X degrees from the next pair, all around the ring.
3. Larger curved coils than #2, but in the same basic vein.
4. Some sort of freak-nasty Vulcan coils that are actually entire rings, evidently allowing higher speeds than warp four, but presumably inefficient in some respect (technologically or tactically) beyond a certain warp speed. If nothing else, I'd imagine coil swap-out would be a bitch, since it would involve dismantling the entire ring.
Any other ideas?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: If nothing else, I'd imagine coil swap-out would be a bitch, since it would involve dismantling the entire ring.
This strikes me as being a very interesting approach. Regardless of the internal composition of Vulcan warp coils, the idea that they are much harder to repair would be a good reason for the early Federation to choose the less efficient but (presumably) more easily repaired human/other design. Of course, by the "modern" era, that is, the 23rd and 24th centuries, those efficiency problems will have been solved.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
But - as mentioned above the Vulcans are still using something similiar in the TNG/DS9 era.
Another wild theory might be that there is a difference in acceleration. The ring may provide for a very efficient "smooth" ride but take longer to reach speed and maybe even to stop - OK in a survey/science ship that can map its movements out well in advance. SF (Earth) ships are designed with nacelles which allow them to accelerate more quickly - more important in a ship that plays a more tactical role.
Of course the "combat cruiser" has the rings too but I somehow don't think the Vulcan's really call it that, or optimize their ships solely for combat.
Nacelles must be easier to build as all the primitive ships we've seen have them. The real rub is why the advanced ships like Intrepid class still do....
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
How would the ring work anyway? Any theories?
Obviously the cycliner nacelle might be by the 24th century superior in way to the ring nacelle. I like Timo's idea the best though.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm thinking that the ring nacelle's physical shape has its limits, and probably doesn't do that well above Warp 7-8. The rod nacelle could have been a new concept in the 22nd century, and at its curent state of refinement did not match the efficiency of the Vulcan rings. Given a century ot two though, it eventually became the better choice.
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Pardon my ignorance (DS9 and Voy were unavailable in my area beginning in '96 or so), but besides the three surplus Vulcan ships seen in "Unification", have we seen any other Vulcan ships in the 24th Century? Those three were never observed going very fast at all (though, granted, the situation didn't call for it).
Also, we do perhaps see some evolutionary steps toward the ring-warp system, in regards to the "Darth Maul Infiltrator"-Class Vulcan ship from "Fusion". The partial rings aboard that ship may indicate a warp engine design lineage for the Vulcans.
Perhaps it merely started from ultra-thin nacelles (as compared to the roughly-cylindrical nacelles we're used to). There is precedent for ultra-thin nacelles, given that the Klingons had extremely thin nacelles on the D-7 and K't'inga Class.
((Perhaps one could even posit a technology transfer (intentional or not) between the Klingons and Vulcans at some early date.))
((This, by the way, led to a thought that makes me feel a little better about the portrayal of the Klingons as technologically superior in Enterprise. After all, in TOS the Klingon/Romulan D-7s weren't that much slower than the Enterprise at warp, despite the fact that the Klingon engines were comparatively tiny. Granted, they were pushing less ship to begin with, but I'm fairly certain the ratio of engine-to-ship was substantially superior for the D-7s, though obviously Starfleet had managed to acquire more of the all-important "How to Blow the Hell out of Stuff" knowledge.))
Anyway, back to the point . . . if you stuff enough flat nacelles together, you can get a ring. 3.14159 it ain't, but it's a ring all the same. Or, if you stretch them out and curve them, you get the engines off of the Darth Vulcan class.
The problem with the ring-warp engines may simply rest with the fact that they can't possibly be as cheap to build as a cylindrical nacelle. To make a ring-warp engine, you have to plate the entire inner and outer surface of the thing . . . for the same amount of hull materials, you can make several cylindrical warp engines, which (evidently) will catch up to any engine efficiency gains of the ring-warp system.
Posted by UM . (Member # 239) on :
Does anyone have any pictures of the fancy Darth Maul Sith Vulcan Infiltrator ship?
Also, how would the Warp Sled fit into the nacelle lineology? They start of using crazy stub-nacelles in FC, rings in ENT, nacelles in TMP, and rings again in TNG?
Does anyone have any pictures of the fancy Rick Sternbach-designed-Vulcan-ship-that-was-only-a concept-and-never-realized-on-screen-but-was meant-to-be-an-Apollo-or-somesuch?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Didn't we see a Unification type Vulcan ship in DS9?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
The "Vulcan Shuttle" was always intended to just be the standard shuttle for the ship, as seen in Andrew Probert's hanger deck matte paintings. I don't think it became thought of as a "Vulcan" design until later.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Toadkiller: Didn't we see a Unification type Vulcan ship in DS9?
Yes, but they used it as Tosk's ship.
Posted by pIn'a' Sov (Member # 293) on :
Yeah, but we did se a vulcan merchant ship of that design as well.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It would be interesting to learn if the model was modified in any way for these appearances.
As the Tosk ship, it was photograped as if it were really, really small (it fit entirely between the jaws of one of the docking ring berths), and had cockpit windows that didn't match the original exterior windows. My copy of "Captive Pursuit" isn't sharp enough to reveal modifications. Perhaps TPTB didn't even bother to remove the prominent IDIC signs, and thus didn't do any close-ups?
In "For the Cause", the ship was much larger again, docked to an upper pylon - probably pretty much the same size as in "Unification". Again, I can't tell if there are modifications there, but the aft end of the ship (pointing to the right, and hidden partially by the pylon) seems to have extra bumps on it.
Speaking of the IDIC sign: anybody think that the sign could in fact be a stylized perspective view of a Vulcan warship?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by UM. (Member # 239) on :
"Speaking of the IDIC sign: anybody think that the sign could in fact be a stylized perspective view of a Vulcan warship"
While I was eating Marshmallow Alphabits this morning, (The kind with the swirly numbers), I thought of why TVs are not usually produced in such designer colours. But I also thought of this as well. So, with regards to the quote: Yes.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I thought there was another design by Sternbach. It looked like a more angular Miranda with vulcan nacelles... picture a Sabre going backwards... which I reckon was inspired by the Sternbach Vulcan prototype. I also remember seeing this picture in the Making of DS9 book and Art of Star Trek in some of the quick renderings of possible DS9's with ships docked and about it.
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(Sorry, bad joke.)
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