I was re-watching "Call to Arms" today, and it jsut occurred to me - where'd the runabouts go when Starfleet abandonned the station? They obviously didn't leave with the Defiant and Rotarran, and leaving them on the station doesn't make any sense - leaving them intact to be captured doesn't make sense.
I suppose they could have been used to evacuate the station of non-Bajoran non-combatants prior to the battle, and waited out the intervening months at Starbase 375 (or be used on small-scale missions during the war). Another possibility would be that they were "donated" to Bajor when they took over the station and been somewhere on the planet. Still, no mention is made of what happened to them. Thoughts?
Mark
PS - I also just realized why they never used the station's weapons array as shown in this episode and "Way of the Warrior": they destroyed it! It ain't coming back after that!
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Wasn't this already brought up a while back. Anyway, you're right about the runabouts possibly being on Bajor for the time being. Presumably they were used to help evacuate the Bajorans and simply remained on the planet under Bajoran care. The Dominion can't touch them because it would probably strain the relationship between the Bajorans and the Dominion.
And i assume you're saying that Starfleet destroyed the weapons array to prevent the Dominion from laying hands on it. It could have been rebuilt when Starfleet returned. Still we won't ever see it again simply because they no longer make DS9.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah... this was brought up before. It may have even been me that brought it up....
I don't know, I remember thinking the same thing though. I think the general concensus was that they were stored on Bajor. Another possibility is that the crew totally wiped their computers rendering them large hunks of metal. Sure, the dominion could've pulled out some tech for study, but it's doubtful that a runabout's defensive systems would be a huge security problem.
Still... it just doesn't seem right that they would leave the vessels on the station. So my vote is for the big U-Store-It in the Kendra Province on Bajor.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It's been awhile since I've seen it, but surely we saw lots of Starfleet personnel who weren't leaving on the Defiant board other ships through airlocks (Robert Wolfe, for one). Why weren't some of these runabouts? The things are warp capable after all. It seems most likely to me that they were among the ships evacuating offscreen before the hammer dropped, as it were.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Problem with the runabouts leaving with the Defiant and the Rotaran is that they're much slower, making themselves a liability.
As for the weapons array, I always figure that the special "Sisko" program fried every major computing-related system onboard the station. The hardware of the phasers and torpedoe launchers are there, but all their control systems are fried. Manufacturing Dominion or Cardassian replacement parts, spares, and consumables (torpedoe casings, phaser capacitors) would have been prohibitively expensive and time consuming (might not even be possible, especially with torpedoes), but so would replacing all those weapons completely. So they sat on the decision until Starfleet made it for them.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Don't forget the fact that the runabouts can't cloak.
Also, I clearly remember Dukat ordering the station to open fire on the Defiant as it approached the wormhole in "Sacrifice of Angels." Only its weapons had been disabled by Rom's sabotage.
Presumably the Cardassians replaced the weaponry -- first, DS9/Terok Nor was a Cardassian-designed station in the first place, and second, the Dominion was there to assist. Not to mention that they had a greatly improved industrial base, and especially that the station had become a crucial military outpost, instead of a backwater mining facility.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Another reason for never using the "WotW" extra weapons after "Call to Arms" would be that the station never came under attack that would have required the use of such weapons...
I doubt the limited speed of the runabouts would have mattered much in the evacuation. As long as they could do warp 5 or so, the Dominion forces would have had no interest in pursuing them. They had a station to occupy and a wormhole to secure.
Taking potshots at the runabouts just out of spite would have been very much unlike the disciplined Jem'Hadar, especially if it required a warp-speed pursuit (even if at low warp). And Dukat no doubt wanted to dedicate his Cardassian forces to securing the station, since it would have been very bad symbolically to let the Jem'Hadar do the liberating.
Later on, the runabouts would naturally have headed for a safe harbor, since their value to the big battlefleet would have been nil. And the way they filmed the end of "Call to Arms", it appeared as if the fleet were immediately heading for a combat engagement of some sort, with the two DS9 vessels joining in. So the runabouts would have gone their separate ways.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yes.. the weapons (if they had been disabled by the Sisko program) had been replaced. The problem they were having was not using the weapons, it was how to destroy the mine field. Destroying even several at a time would've done no good since the mines could replicate.
But the weapons themselves had been repaired.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
^Some of the weapon systems have no doubt been restored, but all of it? I don't think so. We only saw one beam head out to destroy the mine field, and that could easily have come from one of the original weapons sails. They're the easiest part of the weapon systems to replace, since they can swap out the Federation gear for their own easily (O'Brian had always been trying to modify Starfleet equipement to work with the Cardassian station, not the other way around). As for everything else, probably not. It took a over a year to get DS9's enhanced weapons running, and the Dominion had less than 6 months.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm of the opinion that program "Sisko-197" destroyed nearly EVERYTHING of value; this speculation is all but confirmed in the dialogue:
WEYOUN: I assume Captain Sisko removed or destroyed everything of value? DUKAT: It can be repaired.
To leave even the superstructure that supports all those weapons intact would not make any real military sense. The shield technology in particular must have been destroyed, so as to keep the Dominion scratching their heads a bit longer. All the other weaponry would probably be of little value to them, but leaving intact and operable (or repairable) weapons in a strategically important place, for your enemy to waltz in and just use, doesn't seem too smart IMO.
What probably happened was that the station was repaired mostly by Cardassians and Bajorans to a point where it was better-armed than the original spec, but probably not super-duper armed as one may expect. In "Sacrifice of Angels" Dukat notes that the Defiant is no match for the station; obviously it had been re-armed with Cardassian weapons and probably a few Dominion ones in the interm. Given the Dominion's low regard for keeping much of their technology a secret (they LET Sisko essentially walk away with that attack ship in "The Ship") I'm willing to be that they left all that stuff in place when they abandonned the station in turn.
Afterwards, I'm further going to surmise that regardless of the state of weaponry on the station, there was probably little effort to improve it back to super duper levels. Following "Sacrifice", DS9 became one of the centres of the war; headquarters for the ninth fleet, and so forth. We almost never saw an exterior shot of DS9 without some starships closeby. What with all the ships around, there was less need for DS9 to be rebuilt to a mega battlestation anymore - and so it's probably less urgent a priority as it became for the Federation to get every ship flying and to keep it that way.
So in summation, I think that the super duper weapons array we saw on DS9 was destroyed in "Call to Arms", replaced by a lesser, possibly very inferior Cardassian/Dominion edition by "Sacrifice of Angels", and basically never used thereafter because DS9 became an almost unreachable target with all the starships she had around her.
Mark
[ June 20, 2002, 16:55: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Siwiak (Member # 842) on :
I'm with those who think that the runabouts helped evacuate station personnel. There's no way that all of the Starfleet officers on DS9 could fit on just a BOP and Defiant, and those cozy little runabouts have been seen countless times traveling through hostile territory and holding their own, like the episode with Odo and the defective Weyoun. The runabouts could have easily escaped well-before the Dominion made their advance on the station itself.
As for the weapons being disabled, it would appear that the station did have more then just the weapons disabled. All those electrical effects and so forth in Ops when the program was activated seems to imply that the computer system was being fried. An overload in the phaser emitters, as well as many other systems, would more then likely fuse several key components or simply burn out. Kinda like a car with flood damage... sure, the shell looks fine, but it's worthless because nothing inside works and its cheaper to replace. Hmm... subsitute "flood" with "EMP pulse" for better effect... yeah.
[ June 20, 2002, 17:42: Message edited by: Siwiak ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Y'know... maybe the Runabouts simply vacated the area before the Dominion fleet arrived. The only problem with that is that Starfleet didn't begin to evacuate the station (AT ALL) until after the minefield had been activated.
Let's consider how much room there is on the Defiant... I generally consider that 50 crewmen is a bit on the light side, but she's still a small ship. Could the Defiant have evacuated 300 Starfleet officers from the station? Maybe.
Regarding DS9's weapons capabilities, I'd also like to point out that DS9's original super-duper weapons array was installed when the actual threat was much lower than after "Sacrifice of Angels." Yeah, the Dominion was threatening to enter the Alpha Quadrant, but full-scale war was still considered to be a long way off.
The Cardassians and Dominion, on the other hand, would have poured as many resources as they could into getting the station repaired quickly after "Call to Arms." As would Starfleet after "Sacrifice of Angels." DS9 was no longer the backwater outpost that it was in the first three seasons.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Ok... I have a question here. Where the super duper weapons that we saw in Way of the Warrior (the spinning torpedo / phaser turrets and the rising phaser platforms) totally design, constructed and installed by Starfleet personnel? Or were they merely modified and updated from existing Cardassian equipment?
I've always been under the impression that O'Brien supervised the first option. I think those weapons were completely new systems. Unless I missed something in dialouge, it would seem unlikely that the Cardies would equip an unchallenged mining station in neutral territory with all that fire power.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
IIRC, the DS9TM says it's a Starfleet-built system (they even claim those phasers are from the old Soyuz hulls.. yeah right).
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
If they are from the Soyuz hulls... I've assumed that to mean that they used the parts from those old ships and rearranged them into the new design... so the turrets and such as we see them are unique to DS9.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
If the Sisko-197 program was basically a EMP pulse, then anything that involves computer systems will be damaged or destroyed. But anything like mechanical would not be affected. Just all the systems connected to it, so when a Tactical officer presses a button it works.
All the Super-Duper-Quadruple-Duper Weapons will still be there, just all the systems that make them work, will not.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:If the Sisko-197 program was basically a EMP pulse, then anything that involves computer systems will be damaged or destroyed. But anything like mechanical would not be affected. Just all the systems connected to it, so when a Tactical officer presses a button it works.
Could you by chance make any less sense?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Ok, when he go Sisko 197, the big thing in space went boom and the glowy thingies when sparky, and it broke. But it was a nukie emp boomy thingy that went boom so things that round and side to side, and up and down, don't go boom.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
But don't you need hardware and dedicated subsystems to create an EM pulse? My belief is that the Sisko program caused a variety of things to happen that would in fact make things WORSE than when the Cardassians left the station the first time.
When a starship self-destructs, fandom holds it that you can either release the seals on the antimatter storage bottles and instantly vaporize the ship, or do a variety of other things. These include demolition charges, overloading phaser arrays, computer cores, and anything else with a charge in it, venting atmosphere, etc.
I believe that Sisko-197 caused a lot of the latter to happen. Matrix's idea is basically like leaving a car to your bully neighbor but taking away the keys; your neighbor has the car, but can't do anything with it that he'd find really useful. If you really didn't want your neighbor to be able to use your car while you're away, you'd not only have the keys melted down, but you'd remove the CD player, empty out the gas tank, and smash the dashboard. It could all be repaired eventually, but it'd really cost alot and piss your neighbor off while you're at it.
So I think Sisko-197 accomplished all of that, without needing an EMP device. Removing the regulator taps on the phaser arrays would cause them to overload and explode. Ditto for the launch mechanisms on the torpedo launchers, shield generators, and computer core. At the same time, the computer program would have left certain critical systems intact, or at least easily repairable - stuff like the lights and backup life support system would be working. An EMP device (or something like what Matrix is suggesting) would not be so discriminating. We just didn't see certain things blow up because it would have been very expensive to show - note that following the departure of the Defiant and Rotarran, there were no exterior shots of the station. For all we know, when Dukat's ship docked, DS9 didn't look so hot.
I realize that some people just want to believe that DS9 still has its super duper weapons array. But from a practical standpoint, I really don't think it survived "Call to Arms", and whatever weapons it had afterwards just weren't the same.
Mark
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Exactly, a term I was going for was destroyig the dashboard, and steering wheel. That's what I meant with the EMP pulse. It would destroy everything that made it work, but the actual mechanical parts would be left untouched.
The Sisko-197 program would destroy everything useful including the mechanical parts. So it would be destroying the dashboard, steering wheel, tires, brakes, gas tank, engine, and so on just leaving the body of the car.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
..Which was the point, no?
When Dukat walked into the promenade, the only things working were the (emergency?) lights and the gravity. The doors didn't work, there were exploded pipes and conduits everywhere, and all the monitors and control surfaces were smashed or otherwise not working. In Sisko's office, he'd bothered to pack everything up except his baseball, and even take away his Starfleet desktop display thingy. In the next episode, we see that Dukat had replaced it with a Cardassian display.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Um... an electromagnetic pulse on the scale that you're suggesting -- powerful enough to cause explosions in certain bits of hardware and so on -- would also be very likely to fry every living being on board. EMP has some rather nasty effects on living tissue... Let's just say that Kira, Quark, Rom, Jake, Odo, Morn, and everyone else wouldn't last long enough to welcome Dukat and Weyoun onto the station.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm skeptical of that claim. DS9 is big, but it isn't that big. More to the point, you're going to be sending your pulse down the circuits where it will do the damage, not waste it propagating through air and bulkheads and outer space.
At any rate, it would probably have to be more complex than that anyway, as by the 24th century things like DS9 should hopefully be built out of bits hardened against your run of the mill electromagnetic pulse.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I'm sure it's not your run of the mill EMP pulse. It's more like your Super-Duper EMP pulse that did it.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
*wonders what happens if you use an EMP pulse on an ATM machine*
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
First... "Super-Duper-Quadruple-Duper Weapons"?
then... "Ok, when he go Sisko 197, the big thing in space went boom and the glowy thingies when sparky, and it broke. But it was a nukie emp boomy thingy that went boom so things that round and side to side, and up and down, don't go boom."
and finally...
quote:Originally posted by Matrix: I'm sure it's not your run of the mill EMP pulse. It's more like your Super-Duper EMP pulse that did it.
"Super duper EMP pulse"?
First of all, thats like saying the "DOS operating system", "PC computer", or the NSA agency.
Second of all, what is wrong with you?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Yeah, I know I noticed it after I posted it, Electromagnetic pulse. So I am like saying Eletromagnetic pulse pulse.
As for the super duper quadruple duper, whatever it was a joke.
As for kiddie talk, apparently Snay never understands what I write anymore, so I write in kiddie talk so he can understand.
Edit: I just noticed I did throughout the whole topic. I keeping writing EMP pulse.
[ June 22, 2002, 12:41: Message edited by: Matrix ]
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"So I am like saying Eletromagnetic pulse pulse"
For a measure of Great Justice, right?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:apparently Snay never understands what I write anymore
I've never understood what you write. You leave key words out, you put words in funky order, and you often don't use punctuation. At least in "child talk" you're somewhat clear with what you're saying. "Adult talk" seems a bit over your typing capabilities.
quote:"So I am like saying Eletromagnetic pulse pulse"
Now, see, the above is a good example of that.
"Duuude ... like cowabunga, like dude, totally bodacious maaaaan!"
Posted by The New CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Matrix, what is your first language?
Posted by BWC - Phase II (Member # 818) on :
Maybe a English variant like Southern English and British English. Where does he live?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Dude, stop changing your names. And if you want to get in touch with Chucky so bad, why don't you send him an e-mail or something?
Posted by BWC - Phase II (Member # 818) on :
You can relish in the fact that I kept at least one direct reminder of my old name, Jeff.
(It's not like I change it so often... Ok, Ok, anymore.)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Let's see how long you can keep this name. I give you at most one month. And you will still be Boring Wussy Cunt and those other names I said in that "Who the hell are you?" thread.
[ June 22, 2002, 20:59: Message edited by: Dat ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Who cares if he changes his name so many times. I agree but no need for useless insults. You are forgetting two other people on this board almost changes as regularly as BWC does. UM and CM
Edit: I said Eletromagentic Pulse pulse because if you abreviate it, its EMP pulse. Read before you speak.
As for the 'funky word order' so far besides you English Major guys I haven't been stopped for my so called 'funky word order'.
[ June 23, 2002, 11:17: Message edited by: Matrix ]
Posted by The Same Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"Read before you speak."
Remembers something about kettles and pots and other items of note.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
If you really want to be a smart ass, I'll show you where I accidently posted EMP pulse:
quote:Posted by Me If the Sisko-197 program was basically a EMP pulse, then anything that involves computer systems will be damaged or destroyed. But anything like mechanical would not be affected. Just all the systems connected to it, so when a Tactical officer presses a button it works.
quote:Exactly, a term I was going for was destroyig the dashboard, and steering wheel. That's what I meant with the EMP pulse. It would destroy everything that made it work, but the actual mechanical parts would be left untouched.
and a double mistake:
quote:I'm sure it's not your run of the mill EMP pulse. It's more like your Super-Duper EMP pulse that did it.
Now for the explanation:
quote:So I am like saying Eletromagnetic pulse pulse.
If you son't understand what I said, basically after I said about four times in a row before I corrected myself, I said EMP pulse, which is unabreviated: Electromagentic pulse pulse.
[ June 23, 2002, 11:39: Message edited by: Matrix ]
Posted by The Same Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Well, I'm so certainly satisfied now. Because I really did give the "fuck". No, really.
And I absolutely did not have any idea why you said your "like EMPP." Not at all.
[ June 23, 2002, 11:43: Message edited by: The Same Ultra Magnus ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
If you did not care, why'd you post?
Posted by The Same Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Because I'm just that concerned.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Matrix: Like, he was, like, complaining about, like, the fact that, like, you, like, threw, like, the word "like", like, in the middle of your, like, sentence. Not, like, the fact that you, like, said, like, "electromagnetic[, like,] pulse[, like,] pulse". Like, okay?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
ROTFLMAO ... Thanks, TSN Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
changing my PDN name ( ) permanently zero times, temporarily (for more than a day) four times and impermanently (for one post) twice or thrice makes me a frequent name changer?.. considering that, with the exception of about 9 days my name has always been CaptainMike, ive never really thought of it
BTW.. 'but anything like mechanical...'??
[ June 24, 2002, 02:44: Message edited by: Capped In Mic ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I guess it's a sin to say 'like'? I guess no one feels the need to compare something in this world?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If you were using it as a preposition, there'd be no problem. But you weren't. Or if, you were, it made no sense.
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
like, i kinda like know what he's like, saying.. but, like, thats more like a thing you do when you're like, talking and stuff. its really, like, inefficient to read and write like that, like y'know?
there were two times in that phrase when 'like' was used comparatively. the rest were fluff
.. dont worry man, we'll move on to harassing newbies momentarily.. or maybe well start talking about runabouts?
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I bow to all of you English Majors who feel the need to insult over a small little english screw up. I also bow to you who have so much time to harrass newbies and BWC.
[ June 25, 2002, 13:49: Message edited by: Matrix ]
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