In the preview for next weeks episode, did anyone else see what I saw? The Romulan bird-of-prey cloaked. Ladies and gentlemen (okay, fine, just gentlemen), I present the first true continuity gaffe of Enterprise. "Acquisition" was just a warm-up. I can't imagine a way to get out of this one...
Just to clarify, "Balance of Terror" made is abundantly clear that the cloaking device was brand-spanking new in 2266. It's what gave the Romulans the balls to cross the Neutral Zone. I suspect that in their tremendous effort to figure out ways not to ever see the Romulans, they completely forgot about the cloak timeline.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
*Smacks head*
*Smacks co-worker's head for good measure*
Damn, damn, damn.
Mark
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Only one phrase comes to mind at the moment: son of a bitch.
And upon finding an actual picture of the new Romulan ship over at TrekWeb, I have to say that I like it, although I know its going to cause problems for some.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
So much for the little training cruise... Um, I mean -- So much for paying attention to continuity...
The little Xyrillian trick back in "Unexpected" was sort of excusable because they were a nobody race. But the Romulans? Son of a bitch.
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
Hey look at Enterprise as not a trek Show but an Alternate Relality of Trek LOL
Maybe Enterprise Takes Place in 2153 (considering the show will last for 7 years and that UFP is made the last year) but thats about 113 years from balance of terror so how can the Romies have a cloak back than unless it was the prototype that was destroyed and they did not retry untill 2266 because of hell i dont know.
[ September 25, 2002, 20:23: Message edited by: Akira ]
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
here is the romulan ship though it looks newer than the old R:BOP
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Uh...huh?
Anyway, do not get me wrong. I'm happy there's a new Romulan ship. I'm happy that it looks similar to the TOS bird of prey instead of being a modified D'Deridex class (although there's little excuse for the ship being the exact same color...). I'm happy it looks more like a Romulan ship than the Valdore does. No, I'm not happy that it can cloak. Nor am I happy that this shows that the Romulans, like the Klingons, are way more technologically advanced than humans, which contradicts previous info. But what really irks me is that apparently, the penchant for using nacelles which look staggeringly similar to Dominion ships' nacelles on a Romulan ship seems to be the norm in these new designs, both 22nd and 24th century-wise.
All that said, I still like the ship.
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
how about this the Romulan BOP in BOT was of older Design that had a new cloak of 2266 but predated the BOP in Enterprise Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Dukhat: those are my sentiments about the Romulan ship as well. The nacelles bug me, and the cloaking ability has me smacking my head. As long as she doesn't have a plasma ball weapon, I'll be okay. I wonder if there's a big bird drawn on the underside?
The only way this cloaking device will work with continuity is if it's a prototype that works like crap for short periods of time. A horrible disaster results from the tests and the entire project is mothballed. Even then, that's stretching belief a little. And I don't remember the dialog from "Balance of Terror," so I may have broken believability.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Okay, dialogue analysis time. Who has the goodies?
I guess the cloak could be an old invention in "Balance of Terror", and the Romulans simply were smart enough not to be caught using it until "BoT". After all, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence when we're talking about invisibility devices - one could even say it's exactly the opposite!
If the Romulans themselves in "BoT" actually mention that this is a new invention, then we can blame the Romulan tradition of secrecy and backstabbing: the crew was simply fed disinformation about their mission.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
My mother as she watched the preview said, "God Damn It!"
Anyway, let's examine the evidence for the ships of this era. The "Balance of Terror" and "A Piece of the Action" gives us a few data points. If I wrong in any of these points, please feel free to correct me.
From "Balance of Terror" *Ships of this era were primitive by the standards of 2260's Starfleet. *Ships of this era employed nuclear weapons. *Romulan ships didn't have cloaking devices. The ship, given the name Gal Gaththong in the Decipher Card Games, seen in "Balance of Terror" was a prototype ship for the cloaking device. This was the flagship of the Romulan Fleet. *Ships of this era didn't have subspace radio. They had normal radio.
From "A Piece of the Action" *Ships didn't have transporters. Crews had to land on planets. Captain Kirk had a difficult time explaining this fact to the leader of the Northern District on Sigma Iotia 4.
These facts have been contradicted by "Enterprise".
However, we are given an escape clause. In the episode "Shockwave", Daniels says in his timeline the colonists of the mining colony weren't dead. In the conclusion to the story, the colonists were still dead. This is an alternate timeline.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm not sure about *all* of those.
1) "Atomic" instead of "nuclear" weapons. Asimov's atomic weapons in Foundation weren't fission bombs - they were handheld or ship-mounted energy weapons which he later described as microwave guns. Heck, an A-bomb is supposed to be the easiest way to power an energy weapon in much of sci-fi. Perhaps the phase cannon is an atomic weapon!
2) Exact dialogue in "BoT" would be needed to confirm that the ship was a prototype for the cloak. She was "the Praetor's finest", but probably not a flagship of any sort (think USN Sea Shadow, a tech testbed that certainly could be called "the finest" yet certainly wouldn't be a centrally important combatant for the USN). For all we know, she was sent out to die in a move of political chess - somebody somewhere deemed the time right for revealing to the Feds that the Romulans possessed this frightening cloaking device, a fact that had been kept hidden for the past 100 (or 3000?) years.
3) A subspace radio was in fact CONFIRMED to exist in "Balance of Terror", as this was the means by which the old treaty was negotiated. No mention was made whether this system was deployed aboard starships. ENT has now shown that it was.
Bear in mind that everything we know about Romulan history from BoT is limited to what the crew of the Enterprise knew. It's entirely possible that the Feds' information was inaccurat/incomplete. The Romulans could have other stuff in 2152, as long as no-one on the ENT sees it. We already know they can't see the Romulans themselves.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: My mother as she watched the preview said, "God Damn It!"
Now, I'm tempted to fake Lee's accent and go on some sort of slithery attack about it being too late, and she having defied the odds and bred, and so on and so forth. But that's just plain mean, and even the Ferengi wouldn't insult someone else's mother.
I am curious, however. If after thirty seconds of footage your mother was infuriated to that degree, how angry would she be if she knew that during the thirty seconds you guys sat on your butts complaining about a TV show that 15 children died of hunger?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I have "Balance of Terror" on DVD. Direct examination is forthcoming.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Oh man... did they really have to f*ck this one up? WHY!? They promised us to keep to the Romulan story established in TOS
The ship.. well... the nacelles are WRONG. The color is a bit iffy, but acceptable. I was kinda hoping someone remembered Greg Jein's Romulan tube model from the first Chronology.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:I was kinda hoping someone remembered Greg Jein's Romulan tube model from the first Chronology.
Well, I knew that wasn't going to happen. The tubeship isn't "cool" enough. Nor did it probably have warp or cloak capabilities, as was hinted at in BoT. What I'd like to know is, if in ENT the Romulans now have advanced, cloaked ships (with presumably better firepower than just atomic weapons), how could they have possibly lost the war against the humans, who have inferior ships?
There's only one possibility...this ship is from...THE FUTURE!!!
Seriously though, here's a transcript from a poster at TrekBBS:
quote:Spock makes the following statement to the entire ship: " As you may recall from your histories this conflict [ Earth / Romulan War] was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels ... there were no ship to ship visuals, therefore no Romulan, Human or ally has ever seen the other. " If cloaking was "old hat" for the Romulans I'd bet Spock would have mentioned it in his intraship communication.
After the Romulan ship appears, fires and disappears the following dialog is spoken: Spock - "I have a blip on the motion sensor, Captian ... Could be the intruder." Kirk to helm - "Go to full magnification" Sulu - "Screen is on full mag, sir." Kirk puzzled - "I don't see anything. [pause] I can't understand it." Spock - "Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain. The selective bending of light, but the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem."
Airtight continuity, my ass.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Now, look: I'm actually really a very nice guy, OK?
Nope, that wasn't very convincing, was it? 8)
Only one person round here watches Star Trek with their mother. Come crawling back (again), Colin?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Actually, I watch Star Trek episodes with my mother on occassion as well.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Biggest Goof First:
Cloaking Device: Apologist Attitude: The Cloaking device mentioned in BoT might be the first of it's kind... but not the first cloaking device. Continuity's Attitude: TPTB SCREWED UP LIKE WE SAID THEY WOULD! I go with the later.
Subspace Radio: We've talked about this before. The only information we have about the subspace radios of this time is that certain ships did not have them, but that they did exist. So something about subspace radios prevent them from being on ships of this era.
I don't really care about going into anything more that this episode is going to bring up till later, all I know is that it will more than likely suck for us continuity seekers.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Actually, since we're all in confession mode, before we move on to the group hug I'd like to admit that I watched one or two eps with my mum when I used to visit her. It was exhausting, I had to explain everything as we went along. Can you imagine explaining altered timelines while trying to watch (& enjoy) "Yesterday's Enterprise" for the first time? 8(
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
Is there some way Archer Meseed up the time line when he seen the Romulan Empire book in Shockwave 2 and thus change the way the empire came about untill archer changed it back maybe in the future Episodes?
[ September 27, 2002, 09:59: Message edited by: Akira ]
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
*doesn't even allow my parents in the room while I'm watching Star Trek...* Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Even worse: I had to go round to theirs to watch Crusade on their satellite. After three eps I was so embarrassed I just gave up and waited for it to appear on a terrestrial channel.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I wanted to make up a transcript of the relavent portions of "Balance of Terror," god damn it! Now what am I going to do this weekend? SURELY NOT THAT.
It is rather clear that the Romulan cloaking device is new (to the Federation) as of TOS. But, you know, we'll see. Quite frankly, in an ideal world, I'd go back and toss out much of the "Balance of Terror" backstory. We didn't know what they looked like? Yeah, sure. Considering that in five or ten years I'll have all the computer power on my desktop (or even palmtop!) necessary to crack any genome handed to me...
Tech speculations aside, I'm interested in how they're going to handle the whole war thing. The Enterprise's speed means she'll be on the frontline of almost any conflict, no matter where it occurs in the human sphere of influence. (As limited as that seems to be.) So are we in for a DS9-like shift of focus? That hardly seems likely, or even, really, desirable. We already had a war show, after all. I guess. I don't know. It would be fun, I suppose.
Of course, really, there isn't necessarily any reason why the war has to occur during Enterprise's run. Spock claimed it was an "Earth/Romulan" conflict, but that's simply because Roddenberry hadn't thought of the Federation yet. And even afterwards, the words Earth and human were used regularly. There's nothing absolutely canon that demands that the Romulan war be the event that finally pushes the UFP into existence.
Posted by Cadet Sorak (Member # 874) on :
quote: Is there some way Archer messed up the time line when he saw the Romulan Empire book in Shockwave 2...
That would be logical. Remeber Daniels told Archer not to worry about that book. (I actually lauged out loud with that line, it was tired and it seemed so darn funny!)
The Romulan ship could more than likely be from an alternate timeline, or from the future. I recall people on the forum speculating that "FutureGuy" was a Romulan, so they might have some diabolical temporal plan.
Did anyone mention in the early 1st-season episodes who the "Temporal Cold War" was being fought against? Daniels mentioned that "his people" (a future evolved Federation?) were fighting against somebody-or-other...did he specifically say the Suliban?
And why are they using time travel so much in this series anyway??? Don't they have any other good show ideas???
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
You kiddin' me? The temporal cold war story is the ONLY time-travel story in the series, and I hope the hell they keep it that way. Voyager had tons of time-travel shenanigans, and while a good temporal story is fun, they did it WAY too much on that series.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If Spock said it is possible but expends great energy - maybe that is what is going on in this ENT episode... They have a PROTOTYPE or something - but it expends WAY too much energy?
OK, I'm the first to crack up about continuity... but watching "Through the Looking Glass" the other night... and remembering "Emperor's New Cloak". Hmmmmm.
Can someone explain that one?
Really the whole problem with Enterprise is they are relying too heavily on what we know about established races TOO much. What else is there about Romulans that could make a show and make them distinct from another race if 1. We don't see them. 2. We don't have them cloak. They are just the same as every other race. This is where the writers/producers should move in and establish a new angle about these races - something that can exist in the 22nd century and still fit with what we already know about the individual races... Klingons, Romulans, Ferengi.
BETTER STILL - why don't they invent NEW Alien threats/their own little universe (we didn't get to see much of the other UFP races in Trek). Andorians are a start. So are the Suliban.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, basically, they can't possibly produce a show people will like, because if they bring in established aliens the fans revolt, and if they invent new aliens the fans revolt.
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
i guess the borg or archer could have messed up the time line and thus messed up the way the romulan's and Earth ships look more advanced.
maybe later in ths show they'll try to change the time line back the way it was before all the interferance from the borg and the change that archer could have done, or the romulns lost the war and lost most of there technology in the war and went back into hiding untill TOS-BOT.
Is it me the romulas only come out when they want something or are trying to take some kind of technology? Like Pegasus , EntC , Enterprise NX-01 or trying to start a war.
To me thats how the romulans got so big in the TNG from TOS
I feel the Romulans Stole all there Technology.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That, uh, doesn't appear to map to the known Romulan MO at all. Romulus fights Earth for reasons unknown. (But personally, I suspect that Vulcan cultivating all these allies probably had something to do it.) Romulus attacks a second time just to see if they could. Then they buddy up with the Klingons, and then the Federation too, only to try to play the two off of each other. Then something happens at Tomed. And then, you know, the Dominion War, and so on.
Were I charged with describing Romulan strategy with regards to the Federation, I'd say it all started as a way to maintain parity with the Vulcans. But instead of driving a wedge between Vulcan and her new allies, they seem to have drove them together. So the plan changes to one of keeping up with the interstellar Joneses, as it were. War with the Klingons. (Though surely the Klingons had something to do with that.) Espionage and infowar with the UFP. And now, post DS9, apparently engagement with both powers.
Sure, we've seen the Romulans try to grab or interfere with Federation technical advances. And we've seen Starfleet doing the exact same thing. These are all components of larger political strategies. The Romulans aren't just privateers or something.
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
quote from Insurection Warp drive changed the romulans from thugs to an Empire so maybe they still are thugs . what do thugs do? i think steal
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yes, just like DS9 had an annual "let's torture O'Brien" show, Enterprise can have a "aliens known to us from the future of Trek, but not to Archer & co, sneak onboard and steal stuff without the crew ever learning this species' name." We've had the Ferengi and the Romulans, we can look forward to the Cardassians, Gorn, Tholians, Kazon, Borg - yeah, that should do us nicely for the remaining 5 seasons.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Captain Archer knows the name of his nemesis in "Minefield". See the preview.
To be honest, I like the backstory as presented in the James Blish adaptation of the "Balance of Terror". According to this backstory, the Romulans were an unknown species to Earth people before the Earth-Romulan war. The war started when the Romulans attacked an Earth outpost. The Earth forces repulsed the invaders and pushed them back to their home system.
For me, now I think about it, I would have liked to see a series where Earth builds alliances with non-Earth species. This is the proto-Federation. We see the build-up to the Earth-Romulan war. Then the war. Then the Federation. (Sounds like B5, doesn't it?)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I forgot about the whole "Romulans didn't have warp drive until 100 years ago" thing - how do this FIT with "Minefield". A Romulan impulse sleeper ship?
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
Didn't we have this debate here before? Warp Rommies vs. Sublight Rommies?
Later... Art
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
In the light of the new "Minefield" evidence?
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Didn't we have this debate here before?"
Too many times.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Well, it's all so messed up that, from a fatalistic viewpoint, a bit more doesn't really hurt. We already know that everyone has subspace radio in those days and quite a few races have holodecks or shapeshifting abilities. And we have seen the Xyrillians and the Suliban cloak. Actually, I would have been surprised to see a Romulan ship without cloak!
From an optimistic viewpoint, we can enjoy a homage to the TOS BoP, and finally the idea that Romulans didn't have warp drive (which would have surprised me too) is dead.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe we just have to chalk it down to the fact that Picard meant to say 'two centuries ago' instead of 'a century ago'.
Andrew
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
you cant do that! the continuity would collapse! whenever a character utters a time reference its because he has chekced and double checked his padd!
if it was 2364 and someone says a hundred years ago it mean 2264! not 2263 or 2265! never! not 2246 thats for sure!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In any case, Picard and Dougherty may not be referring to the introduction of Romulan warp any more when Dougherty says "We can handle them" and Picard retorts "Somebody probably said that about the Romulans a century ago".
I personally think Picard was making a reference to the fact that Romulans and Feds were uneasy allies roughly a century before "Insurrection". This is evident in ST6, and fits well thematically with the Son'a/Fed alliance in "Insurrection".
I'm not at all convinced the writers meant this (they probably just checked the chronology to see that Romulans first made it on screen in the 2260s), but I still think it's a natural explanation for Picard's words. It thus has nothing to do with when and how the Romulans got warp.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
If the authors checked the Chronology, they probably read the reference about them not having warp drive, and Picard's line may have meant exactly that. But we are free to interpret this in that Picard may be either 100 years off, or he actually referred to the Romulans coming out of isolation, using their warp drive to cross the NZ for the first time in 100 years (I assume the latter).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe he was just reffering to when Romulans turned from an Enemy into... thugs?
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
Someone was talking about transcribing the text from "Balance of Terror". Well someone over at TrekBBS did just that, go on to this thread, and look for a post by TRexx:
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)