Placeholder, as I just got home and missed the opening two minutes of the episode. But suffice it to say for now - BOOOOM! That's one big chunk of saucer they blew off!
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yup, this is one tech-heavy episode. This'll take a while.
-There are only two crew working full-time down in the armory. Reed asserts that adding a third will allow one of them to work on the upgrades to the torpedo launchers. Upgrades?
-England has made it to the finals in the 2152 World Cup for soccer. Huzzah.
-The fun begins when they orgbit a new M-class planet. They're going to start exploring in 'pods when BOOOOM (and I repeat for emphasis: BOOOOOM!!!)! A large hunk of the fore port section of the saucer gets blown to pieces.
-Damage is to C and D decks; this may not jive with the damage seen. It looks a lot lower. 17 casualties reported in the initial blast, including Hoshi.
-Okay, the mines ARE cloaked. So are the Romulan ships that show up later. This sucks. Anyway, a second mine soon latches itself close to the starboard impulse saucer impulse engine. It's armed with tricobalt explosives - apparently not much, as yield is later determined to be a quarter kiloton. I think they really meant MEGAton. Anyway, letting it blow so close to the impulse manifold is considered a Bad Thing, so Reed heads out to fix it.
-Figuring a minefield can't have only two mines, Archer breaks out the quantum beacons still attached to the grappler arm (back in "Shockwave Part I"). Soon enough, they break through the cloak (already?! Yeesh!) and detect 'em.
-New set gimmick: The side airlock, opening upwards, No idea where it comes out.. Probably under a slideaway plate. I'd have liked it if they'd used those ventral/dorsal doors where the robot arms are supposed to be kept.
-New set gimmick #2: the steering wheel at the conn has been replaced by a joystick. Looks better than the wimpy control sticks used on the E-E or Delta Flyer. Travis may need a little more practice with it, though, as we see soon enough.
-The mines may have been there for some time - they're scorched with micrometeorite impacts. A pretty nifty prop, actually, though it doesn't really "look" Romulan. And this is a Good Thing. Along the way, Reed gets speared through the leg with one of its magnetic mooring legs - luckily, the suit seems to be equipped with a self-dispensing sealant, which is also a Good Thing, but something apparently forgotten by the time Worf goes Borg-hacking in "First Contact".
-Oh, and the detonator is similar to one seen on a Triton-class spatial torpedo, whatever that means. It's got lots and lots of tech yaddas to disarm, though no one seems to suggest the transporter (I may have missed it - but it's pretty obvious).
-Ooh, the Romulan ship is spiffy. They apparently have a more advanced version of the mine's cloaking field, as the quantum beacon couldn't penetrate it. There is at least one weapons mount, in the nose, and fires a typically Romulan green pulse blast.
-They broadcast in Romulan, which Hoshi has to translate as the UT can't handle it. Huh? Given that the Romulans are off-shootish from the Vulcans, shouldn't their languages share at least a little commonalities? But I guess it's not THAT bad, since English/Latin is pretty different from almost any African language, and we're all on the same planet - there could be something like that working with the Romulans (not to mention thousands of years apart). Can anyone remember any Romulan language references in any TNG series?
-Let's talk about the Romulans themselves for a minute. Archer does remember the book he saw when he was stuck in the future two episodes back, and true enough can't offer anything because of it. T'Pol knows of them, and reports that the Vulcans know them to be an "aggressive, territorial species" that they've never made direct contact with. Sure. In any case, that's about all we learn about them this time around. By the end of the episode, Hoshi has figured out their language and the UT translates accordingly.
-Relevant character bits: Reed was trained not to "chat", which is part of the reason he sits in his shell most of the time. He's not perfectly comfortable with the relatively lax attitude Archer has on the bridge, or with his relative lack of caution in security matters. Adding to all that we know of his family (he's the most developed of the characters in that area, no?) he's got a great uncle who served in the Royal Navy, but who was aquaphobic like him (one reason he chose Starfleet instead), but served on, and gave his life for the crew of, the RN sub HMS Clement. Reed was raised on the water, and loved the Navy, but was always afraid of drowning.
-Archer mentions at one point that "they could be out here for years", referring to their mission. Interesting - do they have an open-ended mission? No "five-year" stuff? Are they scheduled to return to Earth at SOME point, or just whenever they feel they need to?
-We see a little more of the spacesuits later on, when Archer attaches a spare air hose to Reed's suit after Malcolm tries to make like his uncle. Apparently, Starfleet has been using the same magnetic boot technology for a while: the SFX used for the suit boots are the same as for the FC suits (but not those in the comparitively silent boots of Star Trek VI).
-Crew counting... When the Romulans show up again (this time with two ships), they say that there are 82 people in Enterprise, plus Archer and Reed outside. At last count we were at 87; counting Daniels, we seem to have lost two people. No mention is made of this, or if they were lost in the blast.
-I'll leave the resolution of the episode for you guys to see yoursleves, 'cuz it's pretty neat. I WILL say however that it involves the use of two shuttlepod doors.
-At the end of the show, Enterprise leaps into warp with all the damage on the port side still there (and a large plate of hull missing from the starboard side-- oops, did I say too much?). Possible glitch: Voyager apparently has trouble going to warp with a Kazon shuttle sticking out of its hull. Enterprise has NO trouble with large sections of ship missing. Hm.
Fingers tired. Other people fill in rest.
Mark
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
God bless IRC
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: [QB]Yup, this is one tech-heavy episode. This'll take a while.
-England has made it to the finals in the 2152 World Cup for soccer. Huzzah.
Which, peculiarly enough, should be a World Cup year, right?
quote: -The fun begins when they orgbit a new M-class planet. They're going to start exploring in 'pods when BOOOOM (and I repeat for emphasis: BOOOOOM!!!)! A large hunk of the fore port section of the saucer gets blown to pieces.
-Damage is to C and D decks; this may not jive with the damage seen. It looks a lot lower. 17 casualties reported in the initial blast, including Hoshi.
Yeah, I noticed this as well. Looked more like D and E got nailed. No fatalities.
quote: -New set gimmick #2: the steering wheel at the conn has been replaced by a joystick. Looks better than the wimpy control sticks used on the E-E or Delta Flyer. Travis may need a little more practice with it, though, as we see soon enough.
I'm pretty sure it was always there in the middle of the steering wheel apparatus. Might need to check some pictures to be sure.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: -Figuring a minefield can't have only two mines, Archer breaks out the quantum beacons still attached to the grappler arm (back in "Shockwave Part I"). Soon enough, they break through the cloak (already?! Yeesh!) and detect 'em.
This is a little disconcerting... on the one hand, it forms the basis for a weak explanation of why the cloak was new in "Balance of Terror." Humans cracked the old cloak (eventually including the one on the ships), making it useless. On the other hand, we're looking at temporal contamination. Why hasn't Daniels retrieved all of the anachronistic paraphernalia yet? The only two asnwers I can think of are predestination and the possibility that quantum beacons would naturally be developed around this time, but Enterprise got a leg up. They might be useless on other forms of cloak.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: -They broadcast in Romulan, which Hoshi has to translate as the UT can't handle it. Huh? Given that the Romulans are off-shootish from the Vulcans, shouldn't their languages share at least a little commonalities? But I guess it's not THAT bad, since English/Latin is pretty different from almost any African language, and we're all on the same planet - there could be something like that working with the Romulans (not to mention thousands of years apart). Can anyone remember any Romulan language references in any TNG series?
In "Unification," a Romulan boy has the syllabic nucleus of the Vulcan language on some toys, keeping it alive on Romulus. In any case, I'm taking linguistics this semester, and there are languages on Earth that linguists haven't yet figured out, or have only a rudimentary understanding of, after years of study. It's not unreasonable at all to have dramatically different languages after 2000 years of seperation. Two other possibilities:
1.) At the Time of Awakening, Vulcan didn't have one world-wide language. The Romulans were of one ethnic group or nation with a very unique language, and when they left, their modern language evolved from that, and not "Standard Vulcan." Also explains their high occurrence of forehead ridges.
2.) As in Diane Duane's novels, they designed their own language (as well as society) aboard their departing ships as a social protest of what they were leaving behind.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Actually that is interesting reguarding the Romulans... is there any possibility that Romulans and Vulcans were two dominant species on the one planet - like in that VERY GOOD Phlox episode - where the more 'advanced' race was dying - or the B5 season 5 episode with Franklin revealing that one of the Races from the League of Non-aligned Worlds had committed genocide on another species that co-evolved on their planet.
So are the Romulans original "Vulcans" - i.e. from Vulcan but of a slightly different species? Doesn't gel? Oh well.
And as for a (canon) example of Romulan language... "Jolan Tru".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"-England has made it to the finals in the 2152 World Cup for soccer. Huzzah."
"Which, peculiarly enough, should be a World Cup year, right?"
The World Cup is every four years, isn't it? And there was just one this year? Then there should be World Cup tournaments in 2150 and 2154, not 2152.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Maybe World War III fucked up the schedule for soccer World cups.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
In the "Paradise Syndrome", Spock speaks of the languages of the Vulcan colonies. Their language is founded on musical notes.
Though largely forgotten in the development of Star Trek history, the original story of the Romulans is found in "Balance of Terror". In the era prior to Surak, Vulcans were colonizing other worlds. The Romulans were part of one such colonizing mission and over the thousands of years the Romulans and the Vulcans became two distinct species with their own languages and customs.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
The World Cup is every 4 years, so it should be 2150 and 2154, BUT, the Woman's World Cup is also every 4 years and offset by 2 years, so the Women's World Cup was in 2000, and therefore would also be in 2152...
So maybe England's women's team made it to the finals.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: In the "Paradise Syndrome", Spock speaks of the languages of the Vulcan colonies. Their language is founded on musical notes.
Well, he actually said that "some Vulcan offshoots" use musical notes, not that it was common to all Vulcan colonies, or to Vulcan itself.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
AFAICT, there was absolutely no mention of using the transporter to save Reed. While I applude B&B for this small attempt at technological self-restriction, it's pretty bloody stupid in this case. They could have beamed Reed off, patched him back up, and have him back out to disarm the damned thing in half the time. Or simply beamed him off the detached hull plating. No, let's go with Archer's stupid plan. At 20m, even with something solid between you and the blast, a 1/4 kiloton yield should have sent out enough energy to scramble your brains and internal organs with sheer kinetic force, especially when it's got a flating to vaporize into gas for use as an energy transfering medium. I'm guessing Reed lacks guts to scramble, and Archer brains.
Something that bothered me, by giving an actual explosive yield like that, we're gonna have Warsies swarming all over the fact that something that small opened up the ship. Are they going to care that it was done to an old and unprepared ship, with hull plating less than half a foot thick? No, they'll just make up some crazy crap to diss Trek tech as us.... *is shot*
Ahem, now that fanatical ranting Dave is dead, the final point of this point is how no one dead. B&B seem to be going out of their way to make sure that no nameless crewmen buys it on what is a very dangerous voyage, probably because they don't want to give Enterprise an excuse to return to Earth. Hell, I don't think this mine impact is going to sent Enterprise home.
"Don't worry Admiral Forrester, it's just a scratch on the paint job. It'll come right off with some elbow grease..."
"Sir, C deck is losing atmospheric pressure again! And someone stole one of our impulse reactors!"
"I'll have to call you back, sir."
^That's more likely to happen then anything else. I'm thinking that by the time the series end, Enterprise's hull-patching ability will rival if not surpass Voyager. Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Hell, I don't think this mine impact is going to sent Enterprise home.
$$$ Spoilers $$$ (mark space below)
You're right. Next episode the Enterprise will find an alien repair station. I'm glad that they don't do it like on Voyager. At the end of the episode the ship is badly damaged but next episode it looks all new.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
We've already ranted about the actual use of the cloaking device vis a vis "Balance of Terror" long enough... so I'll leave that part alone.
I'm no scientist, but wouldn't the very nature of a cloaking device mean that there shouldn't be any "quantum emissions" lying around for Archer's fancy doodad to pick up in the first place?
I'm most curious about Reed's mention of a Royal Navy in which his great-uncle served. If we're generous and assume 35 years between generations, that would still mean that Reed's relative was living in a yellow submarine (or a grey one) around 2080 -- thirty years after World War III. I suppose it's possible that some of the national militaries could be resurrected... but does that really make much sense in a post-First Contact society?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I'm no scientist, but wouldn't the very nature of a cloaking device mean that there shouldn't be any "quantum emissions" lying around for Archer's fancy doodad to pick up in the first place?
many forms of combustion should be "clean" theoretically, but they still produce pollutants. i imagine that the cloaking devide is inefficient and is not good enough to mask all of the emissions produced by the doodad thingamiwop that produces the thingamajiggers.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:They could have beamed Reed off, patched him back up, and have him back out to disarm the damned thing in half the time. Or simply beamed him off the detached hull plating.
You forget that Reed had one of the mine's leg going through one of his own legs. And if you tried to transport Reed out, you'd have to sever the mine's leg that went through Reed. And severing any of the legs would cause the mine to detonate. At that point in time, they had not made any decision to detach the hull plating and Trip had said to do so would take one hour or prep. Also they didn't know the mine would have a delayed detonation. So they didn't take any risks of that nature...assuming Archer even thought of that in the first place.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Old habits die hard.
Another interesting point is that the...tool...(hydrospanner?) that Archer disassembled uses the same power cell as the phase pistols, which was nice.
Reed has some serious issues, though I suppose that's better suited for the "Enterprise" forum.
One thing I am curious about: does the fancy quantum whatsit disable cloaking devices, or does it merely detect them, allowing them to show up onscreen? The mine that attaches itself to the ship is made visible to Reed and Archer, but the cloak might deactivate once it connects, since it is supposed to explode right away.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
My guess is that those beacons penetrate cloaking fields.
No, really. Wouldn't make for a very dramatic vfx sequence if cloaked ships (or mines, in this case) weren't lit up like christmas trees.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: I'm most curious about Reed's mention of a Royal Navy in which his great-uncle served. If we're generous and assume 35 years between generations, that would still mean that Reed's relative was living in a yellow submarine (or a grey one) around 2080 -- thirty years after World War III. I suppose it's possible that some of the national militaries could be resurrected... but does that really make much sense in a post-First Contact society?
I haven't seen the episode so I'm not sure exactly what was said but perhaps there was a temporary global government that was a (constitutional) monarchy? We know from Farpoint that even after FC life in some parts of earth was hard; a monarch would provide a figure for the people of earth to rally around as well as a strong executive. The monarch would also be a something constant for people to look to in a time of immense change. Just a thought....
Posted by Felix the Kzin (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: "Don't worry Admiral Forrester, it's just a scratch on the paint job. It'll come right off with some elbow grease..."
"Sir, C deck is losing atmospheric pressure again! And someone stole one of our impulse reactors!"
"I'll have to call you back, sir."
Thanks for my new signature! Posted by Cadet Sorak (Member # 874) on :
quote: They could have beamed Reed off...they didn't know the mine would have a delayed detonation.
Why not just beam the mine farther out into space? So what if it's scrambled in the transporter, it's just gonna blow up anyway. They could go ahead and sever the mine's metal leg...it wouldn't make any difference.
And no, the beacon didn't decloak any of the mines, it just made them visible on the viewscreen. In the exterior shots, the beacon was still active, but no mines are visible.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Seeing as how it is unsafe to use a 22nd century human transporter in a stiff wind, I don't think I'd be too eager to use it to try and separate Reed from the mine.
"What we got back...exploded! Total gross out, sir. We're gonna need a cleanup team down here on the double. On the bright side, scans show that, instead of tricobalt, the mine's interior is now filled with lungs."
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe the 'subs' were really DY - class vessels with their 'sub'-esque features!?! ;o)
Maybe it was a sub on Europa! Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
"Triton-Class Spatial Torpodoe"
Triton = Greek mythology. A sea god having a man's head and upper body and a dolphin's tail.
Spatial = Of, involving, occupying, or having the nature of space.
So, in my opinion, this class of torpodoe is used on Starfleet ships prior to the introduction of the Enterprise NX-01 .
Which raises a question for me, when and why did Earth ships get armed with weapons? We know from the past examples of Earth ships, the DY-series and others, that they didn't carry weapons prior to the 22nd century. So, what event or events transpired which forced the designers of the newer Earth ships to equip them with weapons and polarized hull plating?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Pirates? Plain old habit? Frankly, given the rather violent nature of Human history, I'm sure that the first spaceship designers simply decided to put weapons on with the assumption that SOMEONE out in the galaxy would be hostile.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Probably the designers saw the Vulcans, Tellarites and whatnot carry weapons on their ships. Especially if the Vulcans were fighting the Andorians in that era.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: We know from the past examples of Earth ships, the DY-series and others, that they didn't carry weapons prior to the 22nd century.
Do we know that? I can't think of a single instance where an older vessel's weapons would have been mentioned. The Botany Bay was adrift in space, the Valiant ran into the Galactic Brrier, the Fiscus sector ships were out on their own. What would any of them have been shooting at? They could have had waepons for all we know, it was just never relevant to mention them.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The Fortunate is our only explicit example of an armed early Earth vessel, really.
Perhaps we could re-fit the Kzinti into the timeline, and say that they provided some minor military entertainment to Earth prior to the events of ENT?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'll only accept the Kzin back into this universe if an Enterprise cast member gets to say the line: "The Kzin are pussycats compared to the Klingons." 8)
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"So, what event or events transpired which forced the designers of the newer Earth ships to equip them with weapons and polarized hull plating?"
Common sense.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
One thing I am curious about: does the fancy quantum whatsit disable cloaking devices, or does it merely detect them, allowing them to show up onscreen?
My guess is that it's some sort of active sensor. Just because the cloak can block all internal emissions doesn't necessarily mean it can stop the thing from reflecting various particles.
Why not just beam the mine farther out into space?
They'd have to rematerialize the thing in the transport chamber, and probably wait for the transporter to cycle. No site-to-site yet, I wouldn't think.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
hmm.. i just thought of something.
In the novel Final Frontier, Diane Carey's Romulans place a mine on the hull of the Enterprise that needs to be pried off carefully by officers in spacesuits, its set to go off if detached.
handy little coincidence, continuity wise.
oh well.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
indeed, matey.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
The cloaked mines do make the cloaked self-replicating mines from two centuries in the "future" slightly less impressive. *shrug*
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I never got the impression that it was the cloak that was supposed to be impressive.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yes, that whole bit where the mine notices its next-door neighbour's just been destroyed and immediately sets about replicating a replacement, that was a corker.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i thought the imprssive part was that they could explode. i mean, we can't get our cloaked self-replicating mines to explode now!
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yeah, Federation mines that explode, I thought they were supposed to be the bad guys.
Can you imagine a Starfleet ground-based minefield? Probably just increasingly-stern warnings not to go any further or else ("or else" not specified) before, in the end, saying that the enemy have gotten through the minefield so they migh as well just carry on, but their ambassador will be receiving a strongly-worded letter of complaint next week.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
EXT: A gloomy field stretches out in front of a Starfleet camp. A Cardassian soldier creeps slowly across it. Suddenly, something leaps up out of the sandy soil and attaches itself to his ankles.
"Hi! I'm a Starfleet Mk. IV Anti-personnel Device! It looks like you're trespassing in Federation territory."
"Uh oh! It looks like you're carrying a Cardassian "Cobra" disrupter rifle. Those aren't allowed within a one point five kilometer radius of Federation facilities. Sorry!"
A wirelike extension slips out from the device and embeds itself in the Cardassian's rifle, causing it to spark and short out.
"Uh oh! You've moved another two meters into Federation territory. Pursuent to General Order 3467, you'll have to be removed. Please remain calm."
The device hums a bit as its antigrav generator kicks in, and the Cardassian is carried away at a brisk but safe speed.
"Thank you for stepping in a Starfleet Restricted Area! Please accept this copy of the complete works of Surak. Best read on any style of PADD. Have a nice day!"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"I wager 400 quatloos on the newcomer"
hmm, I wonder if the Ferengi ever went to Triskelion?
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
probably.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Simon: I assume the Starfleet antipersonnel device is shaped strangely like a large paperclip w/ eyes?
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
Waitaminute...
Tricobalt explosives?? Weren't those very new in the TNG era?? As in, made for destroying the Borg? And didn't just two of those destroy the Caretaker?
I know you can determin the yield of the buggers, but this is ridiculous! Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Naah. Tricobalt weapons (or computer simulations thereof) were used to "destroy" Kirk's ship in TOS "A Taste of Armageddon". Since the Eminians were just another society to be completely subdued and re-educated by a trademark Kirk speech'n'fisticuffs, we got the impression that Eminian weapons tech wasn't all that advanced, either.
The weapons in VOY might have been about as effective as a photon torpedo. Or then slightly less so. It did take two of them to destroy the array, and that through a series of internal explosions instead of instant vaporization. One torp could have destroyed the similarly sized Lysian command center in TNG "Conundrum".
VOY "The Voyager Conspiracy" muddles up the issue somewhat, by listing the tricobalts as "illegal subspace weapons". But that doesn't mean they are supertech. they could be illegal because they represent a "dirty", primitive technology that produces unacceptable collateral damage.
And we've never heard of the tricobalts being used against the Borg, or developed for that purpose. Nor the q-torps or regenerative phasers or any other weapons system, really - save for the original, failed Defiant.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Tricobalt explosives first appeared in the hands of those bothersome Vendikarians (or was it the Eminarians?) in "A Taste of Armageddon," 100 Trek years and 23 or 24 real years before the Borg showed up.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Curse you and your fast response times!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
*bump*
What with summer reruns and all, I thought it'd be neat to revisit these old discussions as they are viewed the second time around. We'll have had months to let the original settle in (and in many cases, be forgotten), so this may add a different perspective to the show.
So, we start with the early season two episode "Minefield". Now that the season is over, does anyone have anythiing additional to say about the technology? Especially the Romulan tech... Considering all the stuff we've seen in the past year, is it really still worth wondering about? And since they haven't shown up again, what about the war we know is coming?
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This is not my own personal view of things, nor is it something I think is a good idea, but consider: A war against the Romulans was fought, according to Kirk and crew, by "Earth and her allies" about a hundred years before "Balance of Terror." Since then, everyone has assumed that this both took place before the founding of the Federation, and was in some way the impetus for the same. However, is this notion, in the strictest sense, canon? Consider that, at the time "Balance of Terror" was written, no one had thought up the Federation yet. Other episodes have references to Earth doing this, or that, and no one assumes this to mean that these events did not involve the Federation. If "Balance of Terror" had appeared in the second season, would the line still read "Earth and her allies"? We've all been assuming that the Romulans were something that Enterprise would have to deal with, but, strictly speaking, are they?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: This is not my own personal view of things, nor is it something I think is a good idea, but consider: A war against the Romulans was fought, according to Kirk and crew, by "Earth and her allies" about a hundred years before "Balance of Terror."
SPOCK:
"Referring to the map on your screens you will note a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone, established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict of over a century ago.
"As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship to ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan or ally has seen the other.
"Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous...and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth.
"The treaty, set by subspace radio, established this neutral zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war."
That's what was the main summary of ther war. This was the only mention of allies. [I edited this last line because I had written exactly the opposte of what I intended...which was this was the only reference to "allies" related to the war.]
[ May 28, 2003, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: MrNeutron ]
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: SPOCK:
"Referring to the map on your screens you will note a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone, established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict of over a century ago.
"As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship to ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan or ally has seen the other. "Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous...and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth.
"The treaty, set by subspace radio, established this neutral zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war."
That's what was the main summary of ther war. I don't recall any mention of allies.
Actually, we've had this discussion before, but you said it yourself - "Therefore, no human, Romulan or ally has seen the other." Obviously somebody had an ally...Earth would seem to be the most likely prospect for this...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives."
Well, "Enterprise" has tossed that one down the shitter, hasn't it?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"...with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives."
Well, "Enterprise" has tossed that one down the shitter, hasn't it?
At the risk of defending the continuity-free B&B duo, one could make the argument that the photon torpedoes will remain sufficiently rare that only a few dozen/hundred would be used in the war, out of the hundreds/thousands of torpedoes fired.
Not that such a concept helps with the whole phase cannon thing. But, then, they had the plasma cannon thingies, too, and Spock didn't mention those. Of course, those sucked as badly as the spatial torps, so it was okay. :-)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There's always the possibility that Spock was comparing the atomic weapons of the 22nd century (phasers, fusion and photon torpedoes) and the atomic weapons of the 23rd (phasers, photon torpedoes), since those were the decisive ones in the conflict. And the atomics of the 22nd would be primitive compared with those of the 23rd, device by device, weapon type by weapon type.
Secondary weapons such as plasma cannon or lasers or kinetic kill missiles or dress swords in turn would not be discussed at all.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Consider that, at the time "Balance of Terror" was written, no one had thought up the Federation yet. Other episodes have references to Earth doing this, or that, and no one assumes this to mean that these events did not involve the Federation.
Indeed, the war was always assumed to involve the Federation in every published novel and manual I am aware of... until the Chronology. What is strange is Okuda's inconsistent use of this "Earth only" idea. It's like he just plain wanted to set the war before the Federation, so he latched onto the Earth idea.
In "A Taste of Armageddon," for instance, the Valiant is said several times to be an Earth vessel, on an Earth mission... but Okuda didn't assume that the Federation must have been founded after 2218, or that the Valiant was part of some special Earth fleet. Why would the Romulan War be any different? We've got fourteen more seasons of Enterprise before the lack of a Romulan War violates canon. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Sort of. After all, it's one of those entries in the chronology that comes under the "we sort of made it up, so it's canon unless a future episode changes it."
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I believe it was D.C. Fontana who originally came up with the idea that the Romulan War precipitated the founding of the Federation. (Earth and her allies banding together for mutual defense against any further threats.) I think the Okudas credit her with this in the Chronology.
-MMoM Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, to explain the Valiant reference, you've really got to draw the line somewhere. After all, "A Taste of Armageddon" does come from the early TOS period, before they'd definitively settled on "Federation" and "Starfleet." Some of the previous references (like UESPA and Combined Service) can be retconned or explained away, others just need to be ignored.
Making the Romulan War a pre-Federation conflict makes sense considering the timetable described in "Balance of Terror," after all -- Spock said "over a hundred years ago," so there's a rough time frame established.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Well, to explain the Valiant reference, you've really got to draw the line somewhere. After all, "A Taste of Armageddon" does come from the early TOS period, before they'd definitively settled on "Federation" and "Starfleet."
"A Taste of Armageddon" was episode #23, while "Balance of Terror" was episode #9.
"Armageddon" referred to the United Federation of Planets and featured Federation Ambassador Fox (identified as such); if I'm not mistaken, they actually called the Enterprise an Earth ship, too! So at that time, the Federation was established, but they used it somewhat interchangeably with Earth... as if it was something of an "Earth Federation," actually. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the original idea at the time, which would tend to support that the terms are interchangeable at least through TOS season 2. That's just speculation, though.
quote: Making the Romulan War a pre-Federation conflict makes sense considering the timetable described in "Balance of Terror," after all -- Spock said "over a hundred years ago," so there's a rough time frame established.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm definitely not saying it should be a Federation conflict. I'm just saying that the idea that it has to be pre-Federation is pretty arbitrary. Even with "over a century," that's six years of Federation time, if one wants to stick it in there.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: There's always the possibility that Spock was comparing the atomic weapons of the 22nd century (phasers, fusion and photon torpedoes) and the atomic weapons of the 23rd (phasers, photon torpedoes), since those were the decisive ones in the conflict. And the atomics of the 22nd would be primitive compared with those of the 23rd, device by device, weapon type by weapon type.
But none of those weapons are really "atomic" as the way people understand atomic (splitting atoms versus total annhilation). If phasers and photon torpedoes are atomic, then so's a poptart.
Though, you do inspire another point. It's atomic, not nuclear. So what, were they throwing kiloton-ranged weapons at each other? That's not much of a fireworks show, even by today's standards.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Have you seen some of the crappy new pop-tart flavors? It would'nt suprise me.
Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
Probably not -- if photon-ic torps in Ent are variable yield just like photon torps later on then that would invalidate the "no quarter in battle" observation.
Personally, I had hoped the Enterprise series would stick with lasers, plasma cannons, nuclear weapons, tri-cobalt fusion weapons but not go anywhere near phaser aka phase cannon, photon-ic or photon torpedoes and leave those just as items mentioned in research papers of the time for both Earth, Klingon and Romulan forces.
Oh well.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: There's always the possibility that Spock was comparing the atomic weapons of the 22nd century (phasers, fusion and photon torpedoes) and the atomic weapons of the 23rd (phasers, photon torpedoes), since those were the decisive ones in the conflict. And the atomics of the 22nd would be primitive compared with those of the 23rd, device by device, weapon type by weapon type.
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Weren't those very new in the TNG era?? As in, made for destroying the Borg? And didn't just two of those destroy the Caretaker?![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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