Well, I'm suprised that nobody's started a thread on the new Star Charts book yet. It's apparantly been out for a few days. Anyway, here's a fairly detailed look at it (along with some of my fairly incoherent thoughts).
Pg. 8-9 Milky Way Galaxy - Physical
Mostly names the spiral arms of the galaxy, and gives some general facts about the Milky Way.
Pg. 10-11 Milky Way Galaxy - Physical II
Mostly side-view stuff of the Milky Way. Also has a little bit about the region around the Milky Way. Shows Galactic Barrier and Great Barrier.
Pg. 12-13 Milky Way Galaxy - Quadrants
This picture was one of those posted a while back. Mostly stuff like Bajoran Wormhole, Voyager's route home, Borg space, etc.
Pg. 14-15 Milky Way Galaxy - Sectors
This is where Mandel tries to explain all the location systems used in Trek. Subquadrants, sector zones, and sector grids are introduced here.
Pg. 16-17 Milky Way Galaxy - Sectors II
Basically, sector grids are divided into sector quads, which are divided up into sector blocks, which are then divided up into sectors.
Pg. 18-19 Milky Way Galaxy - Sectors III
A 3D look at the sectors nearest Earth.
Pg. 20-21 Stars - Spectral Classes
Classification of stars, and a chart of the main sequence.
Pg. 22-29 Planets - Planetary Classification I-IV
Classification of planets. The Genesis Planet is/was classified at Class Q.
Pg. 32-35 Alpha Quadrant - Worlds and Civilizations I&II
Just lists some planets of interest in the AQ. Although whether or not these planets are actually of interest is up to the reader, I suppose.
Pg. 36-37 Alpha Quadrant - Political
Here's where the superfun stuff begins. We've got most of the Federation, Breen Confederacy, Tholian Assembly, Cardassian Union, Talarian Republic, Ferengi Alliance, First Federation, Tzenkethi Coalition, and the Patriarchy (in the order of size). When in the heck did the Tholians and Breen dwarf the Cardassians? And what's the Patriarchy?
Pg. 38-39 Alpha Quadrant - Sol System
Self-explanatory. Unless you happen to think this is a two-page spread on our own Mr. Sizer.
Pg. 40-41 Talos Star Group & Deneb
Just a look at the two systems.
Pg. 42-43 Bajor & Cardassia
The two systems.
Pg. 44-45 Trade Routes - 22nd Century
Shows Earth, Vulcan, and Denobulan Trade Routes. Why Denobulan? Who knows. It also seems to show the Romulans were pushed back about half a sector during the Romulan Wars. (Mandel's going with a small local space in this book, only about 1500 ly in diameter.)
Pg. 46-47 Alpha Quadrant - Cardassian Union
Cardassians, UFP, Bajor, Badlands, Tzenkethi.
Pg. 48-49 The Dominion War - 2373-2375
I think these are just Okudagrams that have been seen onscreen. I think.
Pg. 52-55 Beta Quadrant - Worlds and Civilizations I&II
Planets of interest in the Beta Quadrant. Again, it's up to you whether you think they're of interest. Andor is listed as Andoria.
Pg. 56-57 Beta Quadrant - Political
More good stuff. Klingon Empire, Romulan Star Empire, what's left of the UFP, Gorn Hegemony, and the Metron Consortium (again, in order of size). Boy, Sisko wasn't kidding when he said the Romulans would be surrounded if the UFP and Klingons fell to the Dominion. The Romulans are practically surrounded by just those two powers! The map shows the Neutral Zone being between the Romulans and Klingons as well, but I was under the impression there was no Neutral Zone between the two. The Nimbus system is kind of in a weird spot. I always assumed it would be approximately where the UFP, Klingons, and Romulans all came together. Instead, the Klingons and Nimbus are on opposite sides of the Romulans.
Pg 58-59 Vulcan & Rigel
The two systems.
Pg. 60-61 Route of NX-01 - 2151-52
Hmm... Enterprise didn't return to Earth after dropping off Klang (or whatever his name was), did they? Because that's what the map shows. We also see where Echo 1-3 were dropped off. And the ship passed really close to Betazed, at least on a 2D map. We also have the final voyage of Zefram Cochrane. Why? Beats me.
Pg. 62-63 Beta Quadrant - Klingon Empire
A close up of the Klingon/UFP border region.
Pg. 64-65 Beta Quadrant - Klingon Empire II
The whole Klingon Empire. That's one huge empire (at least in respect to everybody else in local space).
Pg. 66-67 Beta Quadrant - Romulan Star Empire
Close up of the Romulans. They're still surrounded.
Pg. 70-71 Gamma Quadrant - Worlds and Civilizations
Like the Alpha/Beta entries. Mostly Dominion worlds.
Pg. 72-73 Gamma Quadrant - Political
Fairly empty. You've got a really big Dominion (at least in respect to the Alpha/Beta powers) on the edge of the galaxy, the Bajoran wormhole, the path of the Quadros-1 probe, and some Borg near the Delta Quadrant.
Pg. 74-75 Gamma Quadrant - The Dominion
Ooooooooookay. Where to begin on this one? First of all, remember that Mandel is going with a small local space in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants (1500 ly diameter). The Dominion is shown to be about 13000 ly across. Yup. Secondly, the Dominion more than doubled it's territory between 2275 and what I assume to be the end of DS9. Now, if you can conquer that much space in that amount of time, why bother with having Founders stir up disorder amongst the Alpha/Beta powers. They could crush them quite easily, at least according to this map.
Pg. 78-79 Delta Quadrant - Worlds and Civilizations
Here's where I'm going to start complaining. A bunch. Most of the entries make sense. There's Ocampa, Talax, Vidiia Prime, Malon Prime, Vaadwaur Prime, and Borg Prime (don't ask me, I've never heard of a Borg Prime either, but that's apparantly where Unimatrix One is/was). Devore Prime is listed. It's kind of iffy as to whether I'd put that one in. But we also have Sikaris (From "Prime Factors" - the mean aliens who wouldn't share their ubertransporter), Dinaal (From "Critical Care"), and Uxal (From "Friendship One"). Why they were included is beyond me. Personally, I'd replace those three with the Kazon homeworld, the Krenim homeworld (I may be a bit bias on that one), and maybe the Hierarchy homeworld. Why? Because those aliens were all seen in more than one episode.
Pg. 80-81 Delta Quadrant - Political
Obviously, the Borg take up a lot of room here. We also have a zone where the Hirogen take up their residence these days. We've also got the Kazon Collective, Haakonian Order, Vidiian Sodality, the Swarm, the Northwest Passage, the B'Omar Sovereignty, the Krenim Imperium, the Malon Cooperative, the Devore Imperium, and the Hierarchy (not ranked by size but by order along Voyager's route home). I knew that the Krenim Imperium wasn't going to be shown the massive Delta Quadrant power it was said to be in "Year of Hell," even though it was said to be something like 16000 parsecs across when it was something like 97% restored and it was 100% restored when the weapon/ship went kablooie. But the Krenim Imperium is no bigger than a grain of sand on the Delta Quadrant map. Maybe two grains of sand. Pleh.
Pg. 82-83 Route of USS Voyager - 2371
Season 1. There's one gigantic snafu on this map to say the least. Voyager went to the decimated Talax in "Jetrel." But Talax (inside Haakonian space) is located even further from Earth than Ocampa! And the map doesn't even show the trip.
Pg. 84-85 Route of USS Voyager - 2372
Season 2. Nothing too interesting.
Pg. 86-87 Route of USS Voyager - 2373
Season 3. The Nekrit Expanse is rather large (as it should be). But I don't recall the Swarm taking up that much space...
Pg. 88-89 Route of USS Voyager - 2374
Season 4. Major features are the Alsuran Empire, the Krenim Imperium, the B'Omar Sovereignty, the Hirogen, and the Swallow Nebula. The Swallow Nebula is that nebula from "One." How it got that name is beyond me. More complaining from me about the Krenim: The Krenim have less space than the B'Omar. I mean, really. The B'Omar were stupid aliens with the most rediculous headgear ever. I think I shall cry now. And for those wondering what the Alsuran Empire is, I looked it up. It was apparantly some empire that Annorax wiped out in another timeline.
Pg. 90-91 Route of USS Voyager - 2375
Season 5. You've got the three major jumps that year, along with the Void, the Malon, the Borg, and the Devore. Yes, the Malon seem to be all over the place.
Pg. 92-93 Route of USS Voyager - 2376
Season 6. The two little jumps are shown. We've also got the Turei, the Hierarchy, and some more Borg.
Pg. 94-95 Route of USS Voyager - 2377
Season 7. Hirogen and Hierarchy are the big blobs here.
And then you've got the fold out maps at the end of the book. The first one has a list of UFP members, for those who are interested. The second one has a zoom-out map of local space.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Of all UFP members? Or just some collection of dropped names during the shows?
Is there much new stuff or just *canon* information from the show (besides that, I think I'll decide whether this book is canon or not after I go it, which shouldn't take too long now, according to amazon.de)
Posted by Scott Nixon (Member # 540) on :
I was surprised it took this long for someone to start a thread about the book too. Even though I do not agree with all of Mandel's locations, empire sizes, etc., I still like this book--it's very nicely done, and has extremely beautiful artwork/graphics. Like any other Trek reference book, I look at it as a good starting point for me to develop my own ideas (or, in this case, maps). My one big complaint is: Why no side views?! With the exception of pp. 18-19 (showing the local sectors around Earth), there are only top-down views of everything. What's up with that? I'd like some Z+/Z- perspective! I mean, from a top-down view, Ferenginar looks very close to Cardassia, whereas if, as I've always felt is the case, Ferenginar is pretty far Z+ of Cardassia, then it is a good distance away. But since there are no side-view maps, there's no way for a reader to tell.
Anyway, as for why Zefram Cochrane's final voyage is on the map, I'd say that it (and many other things such as the Cait system) is a carry-over from Star Trek Maps (which, by the way, DID have side-views).
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Yes, it appears to be a complete list of UFP members.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:And what's the Patriarchy?
There's only one Patriarchy I can recall as having ever been mentioned in any Star Trek series...
The Kzinti Patriarchy (TAS: The Slaver Weapon)
Which is great, coz I'm a Kzin fan.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Gah! I did not need to read this... I was going to put this on my Christmas list! Now I'm going to have to go out and buy it ASAP!
Despite the nitpicks that Krenim pointed out, this sounds like a very, very useful book.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The Galaxy is so much smaller now..
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Still waiting for my copy. I seriously hope it's not on its way to Iceland...
Yup, the Patriarchy has to be a covert reference to the Kzinti - who are still very actively banned by Paramount, probably in fear of legal problems (even though Niven has said he doesn't mind). Where are they? (Wild guess - about 50 ly towards the core from Earth?)
The Nimbus III location is somewhat logical in that it took the Klingons longer to get there than it took Kirk to fly there *all the way from Earth*. Granted, Klaa probably also started from near Earth, since he was pigeon-shooting the Pioneer. But he still seemed to be the NEAREST Klingon warrior to that planet! Also, a ship heading towards the Great Barrier from Nimbus III would not easily get help from Earth this way.
A neutral zone between the Klingons and the Romulans *is* mentioned in "Redemption Pt II", isn't it? It probably doesn't make much sense considering how "neutral" Romulans and Klingons usually are. But we can say that the zone was established by humans first, and the Klingons later expanded towards Romulus and ran into this zone. As they could not make progress through the heavily fortified region, the zone remained.
Gotta see that region myself. What was shown about Khitomer?
The Krenim issue is highly interesting. IIRC, the 98% restored empire spanned 5000 parsecs and 849 inhabited worlds. A 100% restored empire would not be significantly larger or smaller, judging by the reactions of Annorax to the 98% figures. This is what should have been restored when the time weapon blew.
However, we don't really know WHEN this happened. Annorax had been to temporal incursions for 200 years. There's doubletalk about how time doesn't pass on his vessel due to its shielding - but clearly, this is bullshit. The interior of the ship is not frozen in stasis. So we could say that the doubletalk actually means that 200 years of galactic time have passed since the first incursion, and Annorax has simply moved across those years a bit faster. The Krenim empire could have been 5000 parsecs wide in the 2170s, and reduced in size by the 2370s.
This would explain why, at the end of the episode, the Krenim again fly small ships and act politely and have a space the Voyager can fly around with minimal fuss. And the VERY final scene in the episode would be a flashback to the 2170s, back when Annorax and his wife were still alive, when the empire was 5000 parsecs wide, and when the Rilnar were their greatest enemy. By the 2370s, all that would be lost and the empire reduced in size if Annorax *didn't* mess with the timeline.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Fans of TAS may be happy to know that the Delta Triangle and the dissappearance of the "S.S. Bonaventure (2079)" are marked on the Beta Quadrant map (Klingon Empire II, page 64, bottom left corner).
Some other interesting points (to me at least).
A fairly large portion of Klingon held worlds are marked as battle sites, Something I find quite ammusing. Some either bear the names of Klingon starships (K'tinga, Neg'Var, Rotarran, Ya'vang, P'Rang to name a few). Of course they're not "really" named after ships, it's the ships that are named after stars.
The "S.S. Kobayshi Maru" is marked as being lost in 2245, near Achanis and Ajilon. Just in time for Kirk to enter the Academy (this is a little sick if you ask me, but hey it's not real).
Tholia is listed as being A Y-Class planet, adding more weight to the assumption that Tholians aren't just humanoids with funky looking helmets.
Bajor is still not yet a member of the UFP, apparently it hasn't been ratified.
Deneb IV has been admitted into the UFP and apparently a new Farpoint Station has been built.
Terra Nova is also a member of the UFP, the Capital being Logan city (wasn't that the name of the Conestoga's captain?).
The S.S.(?) Horizon is a busy bee, making a first landing on Izar in 2183. Presumably this is the birth place of "Garth of Izar" and apparently Starfleet's Tactical School.
The "Enterprise" Rigel is explaned by having 2 Rigel systems, Beta Rigel (the one everyone visits) and Beta Orionis being the "true" Rigel. Apparently Deneb has a similar arrangment.
"E.C.S. North Star" is marked as being lost in 2147 between Wolf 359 and p Eridani.
On the whole the is an excelent book, despite one or two hiccups. I hope that the writers will be using it as reference in the future, something that seams likely given that NX-01's route seams to be heading directly for....
$$$$$$$ Spoiler $$$$$$$
The Romulan Star Empire.
$$$$$$$ Spoiler $$$$$$$
[ October 11, 2002, 11:16: Message edited by: Reverend ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
[This is a totally free interruption and no money has changed hands.]
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: Hmm... Enterprise didn't return to Earth after dropping off Klang (or whatever his name was), did they? Because that's what the map shows. We also see where Echo 1-3 were dropped off. And the ship passed really close to Betazed, at least on a 2D map. We also have the final voyage of Zefram Cochrane. Why? Beats me.
I only looked at the book in the bookstore, so I can't truely confirm this, but I didn't think the book showed that Enterprise travelled all the way back to Earth, only that it followed the path back before diverting away to begin the mission around Axanar. At the end of "Broken Bow," Archer says that they are supposed to begin their mission, which I assume was meant to begin near Earth. A trip of three days to get back to the planned starting point isn't that big of a deal.
One thing I loved was the mention of our old standby "warp highways" (by antoher name that I forgot) to explain the four-day trip to Kronos.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
"...Withe the help of Vulcan charts...early earth vessels were able to take advantage of subspace shortcuts through the Beta Quadrant..."
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:The "Enterprise" Rigel is explaned by having 2 Rigel systems, Beta Rigel (the one everyone visits) and Beta Orionis being the "true" Rigel.
But that's not an explanation, isn't it? No matter how many Rigel systems there are, they should have known the word "Rigel".
Is the Enterprise-A's voyage to the centre of the milky way also explained with subspace shortcuts?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: A neutral zone between the Klingons and the Romulans *is* mentioned in "Redemption Pt II", isn't it?
It's been awhile, but I thought that the lack of any kind of buffer zone was made explicit in the plot? Maybe not.
Going over the list of UFP members with Tom last night reveals that there are at least a couple canon Federation planets/colonies left off. No Signia Minor or Corinth IV, for instance.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: But that's not an explanation, isn't it? No matter how many Rigel systems there are, they should have known the word "Rigel".
Is the Enterprise-A's voyage to the centre of the milky way also explained with subspace shortcuts?
I never said it was a good explanation.
Sha'ka're is marked as being just on the outer edge of the galactic nucleus, which the great barrier surrounds. No mention is made of subspace shortcuts but I suppose it's possible. Again not a perfect solution and it's still a stupidly huge distance for one movie. If only they'd scripted a wormhole sequence then it would have solved so many problems....oh well, that movie was a fuck up from start to finish.
quote: Going over the list of UFP members with Tom last night reveals that there are at least a couple canon Federation planets/colonies left off. No Signia Minor or Corinth IV, for instance.
Perhaps they were eaten by a giant space badger?
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Yup, the Patriarchy has to be a covert reference to the Kzinti - who are still very actively banned by Paramount...
Timo Saloniemi
There's another one...The Tzenkethi...it's been said by several people with "backdoor" connections to the DS9 crew that that referenece was originally going to be "Kzinti" but that it got nixed at the last possible moment by TPTB. Nevertheless, they continued to assume (among themselves) that the Tzenkethi WERE the Kzinti, and if by some miracle they'd been allowed to use them again we would have SEEN that they WERE (for all intents and purposes) Kzinti.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Well, "Tzenkethi" is nearly an anagram for "The Kzinti".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I always liked the idea that the Tzenkethi were the Kzin... or the TNG-era 'evolution' of the Kzin - like the Romulan ridges etc., etc., etc.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"No matter how many Rigel systems there are, they should have known the word 'Rigel'."
Maybe if they were complete idiots. It was a Klingon who said "Rigel". To assume the Klingons use ancient Arabic names for stars would be really dumb. If you were listening to a Klingon speaking his own language and heard the word "apple" crop up, would you assume he had suddenly thrown an English word in, and was talking about red-skinned tree-fruits? Or would you assume that there happens to be a Klingon word that sounds like "apple" that most likely means something completely different?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Borrowing giant cats from Niven stories is the worst idea ever. What next, the Enterprise runs into the fleeing Puppetmasters? Someone tries to steal Picard's organs? I know, let's expand our horizons. The Borg assimilate the Moties! And then Ron Perlman can do a double role as the Reman Viceroy and Vincent from Beauty and the Beast who fell through a timewarp with that Time Trax guy who is fighting the temporal cold war against the Cybermen.
Posted by capt ussintrepid (Member # 807) on :
quote:Originally posted by darkwing_duck1: There's another one...The Tzenkethi...it's been said by several people with "backdoor" connections to the DS9 crew that that referenece was originally going to be "Kzinti" but that it got nixed at the last possible moment by TPTB. Nevertheless, they continued to assume (among themselves) that the Tzenkethi WERE the Kzinti, and if by some miracle they'd been allowed to use them again we would have SEEN that they WERE (for all intents and purposes) Kzinti.
I've seen a few people putting forth this notion. I'm interested to hear it may have some basis in 'fact'. Any idea who leaked this bit of info?
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: [QB]Borrowing giant cats from Niven stories is the worst idea ever.[QB]
Blame Niven...he's the one that agreed to it with "The Slaver Weapon" {TOS:TAS) He's also been quoted as saying he thought it worked out pretty well.
No one is saying that we have to have the Puppetmasters, et al just because we have a VERSION of the Kzinti, so that's just a straw man arguement.
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
quote:Originally posted by capt ussintrepid: I've seen a few people putting forth this notion. I'm interested to hear it may have some basis in 'fact'. Any idea who leaked this bit of info?
It's been awhile, but I heard it got a passing mention in one of the DS9 behind the scenes books. This whole topic got discussed over at TrekBBS awhile back...I'll see if I can dig up a link. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er, I'm well aware of their appearence in the animated show. I'm also well aware that it was the worst idea ever. I don't see the straw man.
Posted by capt ussintrepid (Member # 807) on :
quote:Originally posted by darkwing_duck1: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sol System: [QB] No one is saying that we have to have the Puppetmasters, et al just because we have a VERSION of the Kzinti, so that's just a straw man arguement.
As I recall, in the original story Niven adapted for TAS, didn't SPock replace the puppeteer? Thus,perhaps you could argue that the Vulcans fill that role in general. OK, tenuous argument, but still Posted by capt ussintrepid (Member # 807) on :
quote:Originally posted by darkwing_duck1: This whole topic got discussed over at TrekBBS awhile back...I'll see if I can dig up a link.
Cheers Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
quote:Originally posted by capt ussintrepid:
quote:Originally posted by darkwing_duck1: This whole topic got discussed over at TrekBBS awhile back...I'll see if I can dig up a link.
Cheers
Bad news...the archives over there are down for the forseable future ...as soon as I CAN get into them, I'll look for the threads. Posted by capt ussintrepid (Member # 807) on :
Ah well, no worries. Thanks for the effort anyway Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm... Just learned that my copy of the Charts *was* going to Iceland after all.
Oh, well. Looking forward to getting it within a month anyway. In the meantime, who wants to fire up the scanner?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
How could they send it to you, if they didn't know your address? And, if they did know your address, wouldn't it end w/ "Finland"? Or did they say "oh, that must be a typo" and scratch it out and write "Iceland"?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Perhaps he figured Timo is well known enough that he could just write "To: Timo, in Iceland" on the side of the package and it would inevitably find its way to the right person.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
If he's that famous, why does he feel the need to sign all of his posts? Eh? EH?!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And to be fair, "Children shake their fists and have MAGIC happen" is the worst idea ever. Followed shortly after by "Geordi gets a holodeck woman to solve an engineering problem for him because his staff are out having coffee".
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yeah, well, Mandel's mailing mistake was more of the nature of "Now where did I put the address again? Hey, Timo, is it okay if I just send this over to Reykjavik?"
And the worst plot idea ever was to write "More Tribbles, More Troubles" and destroy all illusion about Gerrold actually having more than one good idea.
Timo Saloniemi FINLAND More information available from vendor as needed
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Hail, hail, fire and snow!
In my elementary school, there was this cheap, small little hardback book about Star Trek. It was sort of a behind the scenes/trivia kind of thing. It didn't strike me as being particularly directed towards children, but I was, like, 8 or 9, so what did I know?
Anyway, that little rhyme was the answer to one of the questions, and I checked it out so often I memorized the chant, despite the fact that I don't think I've ever seen "And The Children Shall Lead." This is, I suspect, uninteresting to everyone but me.
No sign of Star Charts around here, oddly enough. I'm planning an expedition Friday. We shall see. (Maybe I'll pick up volume 30 of the original series DVDs while I'm out.)
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
Sol System, you are SO SO SO lucky not to have seen "And the Children Shall Lead". i envy you.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So how many people have this book? Or have even seen it? As far as I can tell, even the major bookstore chains are only stocking it by special order. This does not, it would seem, bode well.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Through the wonders of Amazon, I received mine in Japan on Wednesday.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ok, Amazon, sure. But besides that.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, my university bookstore, which has had the same piles of ancient Trek reference books dating back to The Trekker's Guide to Deep Space Nine -- Now updated to the end of the Fifth Season!" and to all eyes appears to sell next to nothing has gone from the seven copies it initially stocked down to two. Now, one of those is mine. But, uh, I'd be tempted to say it went over well enough here.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hang-on, yeah - Timo you're from Finland aren't you... what is this talk of Iceland?
Timo, have you read the Kalevala?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Timo does live in Finland. But, in an interview that was posted a while back, Mandel referred to him as "a fan in Iceland".
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
All right, the Charts arrived yesterday! They look good next to my copy of the Kalevala...
Heck, they'd look good no matter what. I guess people might buy this book just for the pretty pictures.
I have mixed feelings about the Alpha/Beta quadrant map art, though. Mainly because it's virtually identical to what I originally drew atop Christian's real stars. No, I'm certainly not bitter about copyright or anything - I'm definitely happy the art is there. I just sigh for the lack of surprises.
I just love what Mandel did with "Sierra" and "Tango" and "Epsilon" and "Gamma" and the assorted seemingly nonstandardly named outposts. And it's a wonderful idea to use known Romulan and Klingon ship names as Romulan and Klingon stellar names. And the various TAS bits are generally really subtle...
Too bad we didn't get a better look at the DS9 war maps before - the legend boxes would have revealed that the dashed lines were indeed supposed to represent prewar borders. Sigh. Then again, only the first map bears close scrutiny - in the later editions, Jem'Hadar formations suddenly start attacking Cardassian space, Ferenginar careens madly across the sector, and AR-558 is more mobile than the Cardassian fleets... Overall, I think Alpha ended up being a pretty good match for those maps.
Some missing highlights there, like the Mutara nebula and Genesis planet, or Benzar. Some of the "freely positionable" things could have been squeezed closer together IMHO, like the Lembatta cluster and Archanis which are tied together by "Nor the Battle". Overall, though, no big complaints... Except for the positioning of Talax/ia!
The "Enterprise" maps look very good. Yes, it seems a mistake to say that the ship returned to Earth after "Broken Bow" - but since Mandel says there was a "warp highway" between Earth and Qo'noS, it would make sense for Archer to use that to return most of the way, even if he didn't return all the way. It's exciting to be in the deep end of the pool, but Qo'noS is a bit TOO deep.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain Stark (Member # 70) on :
I've also been studying the Star Trek Star Charts since I picked up the book last week. I felt that the list of planets was woefully incomplete. Yes the book was very colorful but lacking with out a complete list of planets. When I found the book in the bookstore I was a little suprized to see how small it was.
I don't have the book with me now but another thing I noticed was Sarpedion (IIRC) is listed as being in the Cardassian Union. My question was, didn't Kirk and Company visit it durring the Original Series?
Also http://www.i-sci-fi.com did an interview on one of their shows a few weeks ago with Larry Nemecheck who was credited in the the book as helping out with the content. He mentioned that the The Patriarchy was suppost to be the Kzin but Paramount nixed the reference because of legal concerns with Larry Niven. I did like all of the other TAS references in the book.
Another thing I was hoping for was illustrations of the other maps we have seen on the show. There have been several through out the series.
Overall I enjoyed the book, despite the list of planets I felt was needed.
Captain Stark
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
Sarpidian V was mentioned in S7 of DS9 (The Dogs of War, I think) its the headquarters of the 12th order.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I just got my first look at "Star Charts" as well, and the biggest problems I have are with the Klingons. I was wondering about some of the movie references especially. Look at the route of the Enterprise-A (2293) -- the ship goes from Earth to Qo'noS, then heads out towards nowhere in particular, and then goest to Rura Penthe.
It doesn't make sense for the Enterprise to go all the way to Qo'noS -- they must have met Gorkon's ship at the border. And weren't they going to have the original conference on Earth?
Another weird location: In "Redemption," after Sela's ships breach the tachyon net, Picard orders the fleet to fall back to Gamma Eridon. Why the heck would they do that if Gamma Eridon were fifty light-years away?
Regarding the Dominion War maps, specifically the lower left one: Yeah, it's kinda weird that some of the arrows don't match up head to head. However, in three-dimensional space, it actually kinda makes sense that the Allies would try to attack the rear of an advancing Dominion Fleet. For that one group of red arrows just below Starbase 375, maybe it was a Dominion fleet that had been cut off by Starfleet's advance into the Bajor Sector, and the attacks we see are a follow-up advance. Yeah, DS9 never showed the Federation winning many battles aside from the really important ones, but there had to have been a FEW successful campaigns!
Overall, this was a pretty good book. Excellent artwork, and I can't argue with most of the positioning, though I've had a few different ideas myself.
Oh, I did have ONE major gripe: the map of the Dominion. By a rough estimate the "New Founder Homeworld" is approximately one thousand light-years away from the wormhole. Odo returned to the Great Link at the end of "What You Leave Behind." Are you telling me that a dinky runabout travelled one thousand light-years in the space of a commercial break??
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I've had a bit more time to go through the maps now. I did find the Mutara nebula eventually - it's outside the main map area, right next to Alpha Ceti, which Mandel insists is Ceti Alpha.
I can't agree with that, since it's half a thousand lightyears too far for a sublight ship to travel. Plus SB12 and Gamma 400 aren't the closest things to it now, as required by "Space Seed". I'd have preferred another, nearby and fictional star in the constellation Cetus to stand for Ceti Alpha. Oh, well.
The Gamma Eridon thing is probably done so that the star could be the real Gamma Eridani. It does make for a weird fallback plan, though. OTOH, this could mean Picard wanted to retreat politically and not just tactically - so he'd have to go well behind the front lines of the civil war in order to truly disengage.
I agree that the routes of the E-A and the NX-01 could use some fine-tuning...
I'm not worried about the Founder hideout world issue, though. The runabout could merely have been the vehicle that took Odo through the wormhole, after which he boarded a Jem'Hadar battleship escorted by 500 battlebugs flying in formation. Did we see him use the runabout specifically to beam down to the new hideout planet?
In the Dominion war maps, the attacking arrows in the first map are clearly marked with "CU", "JH" and "RE" letters, obviously meaning Cardassian Union, Jem'Hadar and Romulan Empire/Expedition, respectively. Later on, some of the inward-pointing green arrows get labeled "JH", though...
In any case, if you superimpose the first map on Mandel's map, you get the Romulan action just about where the Romulans are supposed to be. And the main thrust of the Dominion attack goes through Betazed, threatens Vulcan, and hits Benzar and Bolarus in a flanking maneuver, just as it should.
What the Dominion is doing expanding to the left of Cardassia is a mystery, though. Are they fighting the Breen? Or just occupying the empty space in that direction before the Breen can get to it? I'd have done that part differently if I had had a better view of the war maps originally. Inserted UFP space to the left, probably, and moved the Talarians a bit to accommodate this UFP pseudopod.
About the maneuver arrows in general... I think it could be said that the big fleets in the war roamed the sectors quite independently and freely, not really minding the "lines of battle" all that much. Lines of supply would not be all that important if the fleet was only out to raid. But the major flanking attack to the upper right would definitely have required lines of supply, which were an issue in the "Rapture" briefing etc.
I wonder what's up with separate locations for AR-558 and the AR-558 comm relay. Or Argus and the Argus array. Well, the latter could be a simple mistake - my original map toyed with both general locations, and Mandel might have forgotten to erase one. And AR-558 was highly mobile on the war maps, so this might be a rationalization of sorts for that.
Incidentally, Sector Gamma is probably right "below" or "above" the Cardassia sector... Sector Beta could be in the middle of pages 64-65, and Sector Alpha somewhere off the galactic plane but near the quardant border.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
Gripe: The betrekke(a)d nebula is shown to be in federation space. There was a throwaway line in WOTW that the Cardies and the Klingons had a conflict over it.
Another thing, the tong beak (or whatever) nebula is shown to be in Cardassian space. Yet in Soldiers of the Empire, they had to go around the nebula before they reached the border.
End gripe.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Incidently, I watched "Broken Bow" today. And...
T'Pol: "I was under the impression that Enterprise would return me to Earth."
Archer: "That would be...a little out of our way."
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