not long ago, I read in this forum a suggestion about a so far not identified ship in the Wolf 359 graveyard scene.
I am talking about the ship that is right above the Kyushu in the opening shot. For me it looks like a Miranda class starship – with one nacelle (the right) and the roll bar missing, photographed from behind.
I admit that the ship is very small in the screenshot, but here are my arguments:
1. The last time a Miranda class starship was seen in an episode of TNG was in “Unnatural Selection”. This one was the “USS Lantree”, which has no roll bar.
2. The most information about the ships we have are from the model makers itselfs. They never mentioned a Miranda class starship. A contradiction? Not necessarely, because the model of the Reliant already existed. Maybe there is a comment from somebody who actually witnessed the shooting of the models.
3. The missing nacelle. If I recall it right, the exploding nacelle in STTWOK was the right one. Since we saw the Reliant-Model intact in later films, I assume that it is possible to detaches and attaches the nacelle without harming the model (like the roll bar). Due to the distance I think that in this case the Miranda was filmed without the right nacelle or with the damaged one from STTWOK so it looks like a bit battle damaged.
4. On the picture there is nothing to see where the shuttlebay and the impuls engine should be. Maybe the light is coming from the front, leave the bay and the engine in the dark.
These are my thoughts. So, what are you thinking? Did we have identified another ship of the battle of Wolf 359?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hi o2! Try not to take it personally when some of the older Flareites jump on you in a few minutes...
Although the Wolf 359 battle is probably THE biggest discussion in the history of Flare, you have some interesting arguments. However, from what I know, I believe there are a couple of flaws.
First, there were TWO models of the Reliant created for "Wrath of Khan." One for the pristine shots, and one for the battle damage. But it IS possible that the damaged one was used.
Second, Bernd and company already have dug up some comments from several of the people involved in the Wolf 359 models. I don't think they include first-hand shots of the actual filming, but from what I know, Michael Okuda supervised most of the modelmaking and preparations himself.
It's an interesting perspective, though!
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Being one of the original people who helped with the Wolf 359 analysis, I can tell you with about a 95% certainty that no Miranda model was used in the scene. The incredibly distant object you are referring to can certainly be observed as a one-nacelled Miranda, but like most of the indistinct blobs on the screen, it can also be observed as just about anything else until you see the actual model used.
Plus, a model as highly detailed as the Reliant would have been shown at the forefront (just like the STIII Enterprise was), instead of in the far background.
Also, as the scenes change, you can observe that this object moves around, and looks less and less like a one-nacelled Miranda as it goes. And I think the missing nacelle on the Reliant model was the left one (when viewing the ship from the rear). The thing that looks like a nacelle to you is on the left, where the missing Reliant nacelle should be.
Posted by o2 (Member # 907) on :
According to this source, Dukhat, the damaged nacelle is indeed the right (and missing) one:
quote: Plus, a model as highly detailed as the Reliant would have been shown at the forefront (just like the STIII Enterprise was), instead of in the far background.
Yeah, but obvious they didn't shown it in the forefront!!! So, why not make use of it in the background, nevertheless? Maybe they don't want us to spot a familiar ship. Or why was there no use of other existing classes like the Excelsior, the Oberth, the Constallation?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Obviously the picture you are referring to comes from an evil parallel universe where everything is it's opposite.
And the reason why there's no Mirandas, Oberths, or Constellations in the shot is because the producers didn't want to damage their expensive studio models just for one episode. That's why the kitbashes were made in the first place.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
a Miranda class ship has never, ever, ever, ever, ever been mentioned by anyone involved in making and preparing the models for the episode. my guess would be that there is no Miranda class ship present.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Whee! More 359 discussion!
The Excelsior/Oberth/Constellation models were not seen simply because they were pristine, and would have to be battle-damaged in order to be seen. It was much cheaper to wreckbash a bunch of kits than to show ships which at best would be missing whole pieces. I'm further certain that the size of the models and their subsequent difficulties in shooting would have a factor. Case in point: the whole reason we had a modified E-B in the first place was so that they could build battle damage into the model without actually wrecking it.
In hindsight, imagine how much we WOULDN'T be talking about Wolf 359 if all we'd been treated to was a cloud of random debris..! Up until that point, that's mostly all we'd known.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I've noticed this possible Miranda before and as Dukhat correctly points out, it's too fuzzy to tell for sure. However, in theory it could well be the damaged Reliant and there needn't be any reason to re-shoot model because they already have perfectly useble footage already shot for TWoK. All they needed to do was to obtain the raw footage of the miniature and recomposite it into the graveyard scene, which may be a valid reason why it's off in the distance instead of being in the foreground with all the detailed stuff, meaning that the original footage was too grainy and wouldn't hold up well next to the new stuff.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The blown away nacelle from the Reliant was the port nacelle. Watch the movie, dammit. But, yes it could have appeared in the sequence in the background. As Reverend pointed out, old footage could have been composited in with new footage. In addition, the old footage could have been flipped around so it appears the starboard nacelle is missing.
But to me, it had always appeared to be the damaged shuttle Kotoi from the Liberator.
Posted by Trimm (Member # 865) on :
Just thought I would add that I just rewatched TWOK, and the Reliant does indeed lose her port, not starboard nacelle. The image that shows otherwise looks like a publicity shot I saw once, because nowhere in the Mutara battle is the Enterprise over the Reliant like that after Reliant gets blasted to a wreck.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
On the back of the last VHS copy released, all the photos from the film are reversed. I didn't realize until one day I noticed that Khan's wounds were on the wrong side of his face.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I reckon that 'reversed' pic of the Enterprise from the rear with the right nacelle of the Reliant blown off is not actually from the movie, but looks like a promo pic - i.e. done later - sorta like those lovely clear pics of the inside of Space Dock or the one where the Enterprise is approaching Regula 1 station.
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