Most ships we have seen in Star Trek are classified as cruisers or other kinds of battleships/explorers. Only a few ships have been mentioned as freighters or couriers. Look at a real navy. They use repair ships, tugs, marine carriers, landing craft, espionage ships/planes... Why we have never heard of them in the Star Trek universe? It seems that the Star Trek staffers (or is it the encyclopedia) are creating ships just to have something new in the show now matter if the ship type is realistic. I mean Starfleet has more than two dozens of FF/DD/CG/BB/EX type but no ships with the ability to start cruise missiles, gather information or deliver a load of marines.
---------- "You! Hold my pint while I get the satchel charges. Yes, of course I'm kidding, you stupid bastard - you think I'd trust you with the beer?"
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Teh Norway is a Missle Cruser
-The_Tom "Don't fire till you see the whiets of there eyes!!!"
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
without any launchers.. impressive.
well i daresay the trek universe doesnt have cruise missiles.
and an array of ship types shown can have a lot of purposes.
the Oberth is a scout..
a Galaxy cancarry 5000 troops if needed
the Nebula has always had that big interchangeable pod.. probably could get a lot of mission specific gear in there.
Starfleet does seem to have a lot less specialized ships that a traditional navy.. but why would they need traditional navy applications in space?
Posted by CaptainMaxwell (Member # 932) on :
The Kapetanov-class Attack Carrier (another variant of the Akira) is a landing ship that incorporates all LP/LC ship of a real navy.
But what about the final attack on Cardassia? The Federation/Klingon/Romulan ships tried to destroy the weapons platforms. A simple Tiberius-class Strike Cruiser could start a few quantum missiles and evaporate dozens of this platforms. But Starfleet preferres to sacrifice ships and crews? Not even the "lets bring war to Saddam" US Navy would do this.
Okay, the Nebula (and also Springfield) with its pod is a multimission platform and okay the Galaxy can carry a shitload of Marines but it has only a few transporters and no heavy landing shuttles. Maybe a Oberth would make a good planetary surveyor but with its 150-year old warp geometry it will never be a plenty armed fast scout.
---------- "You! Hold my pint while I get the satchel charges. Yes, of course I'm kidding, you stupid bastard - you think I'd trust you with the beer?"
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Kapetanov? Tiberius? Are we supposed to know these ship classes?
Posted by CaptainMaxwell (Member # 932) on :
I created the Kapetanov (a amphibious carrier based on the Akira-class, like the Navys Wasp-class), Tiberius (a missile cruiser based on the Excelsior-class, like the Navys Ticonderoga-class), Meteor(a missile/torpedoe defense vessel based on the Intrepid-class), Chimera (you know the Portland, a cloaked espionage vessel), Mediterranean (you know the Lalo, a deuterium/antimatter tanker) and several other vessels just for my own pleasure. Sorry guys, despite I'm austrian I'm a fan of the US Navy and its ship types
---------- "You! Hold my pint while I get the satchel charges. Yes, of course I'm kidding, you stupid bastard - you think I'd trust you with the beer?"
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
You're a fan of the US Navy? So am I! Actually I am a Sailor. Check with Hobbes so is he. Also post some of these ships in the Design fourm.
There are parallels between the US Navy and Starfleet, but there's also many things that are different. For one is the amount of officers on board there ships. Every episode we see a load of officers and almost no enlisted members. In the US especially on ships, the ratio of officers to the enlisted is about 1 to 25.
Second, many of these ships are about the same size or far larger than a aircraft carrier, and we are to expect a crew of 500 or so? The Galaxy class has a thounsand and that's not even a full crew but with families as well.
In terms of looking at demographics, Starfleet should have hundreds of millions of officers and enlisted.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Thread hijack time! Actually, this is just the perfect place for my thought.
While at work today, I too was thinking about the parallels between Starfleet & RW navies, but in more of the operational aspects. Specifically, I was thinking about time off. It never occured to me to think about days off. I mean, us working stiffs get on average 2 days off a week to rest & I can't see RW navies doing that aboard ship. So what about Starfleet? They're cities in space...do they give you the weekend off, & if so, how do you go about requesting it?
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
ST armada series?, any1....
well
quote: no ships with the ability to start cruise missiles
Delta Flyer had Photonic missles. 4 of them too.
quote: gather information
Venture Class
quote: deliver a load of marines
Iwo Jima class
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Or, hey, they could deploy the Enchiridion Class to perform a trans-sentient uplift on potential threat species.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"150 year old warp geometry"?
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Starfleet vs. the Real US (or Royal) Navy.
An army fella once told me that there are two things in life an army boy could never understand: Navy ranks and British money.
Well, I rather think that Starfleet ranks is a hellav lot harder to understand than Navy ones.
Is Starfleet a military? Yes, it is. It breathes,acts and behaves like a military. Must be one. Non of this TNG paramilitary organization crap.
Why? The Navy also does exploratory research (in the seas) much like Starfleet. Starfleet, on the other coin, is called when there is a threat-- i.e. V'Ger, the Borg, the Romulans, the Klingons. There may not be any saluting, but everthing else sings of the military.
Star Trek doesn't always get the military aspect right (except for Meyer, DS9, and parts of this last movie). Take a look at Enterprise; the Earth Star Fleet is acting much like the Picard one. Do we really expect to believe this?
However, I've always felt that the old Star Trek, especially the movie-era past TWOK, was more like the old Royal Navy in its heyday before WWII.
There should be different classes of ships; from frigates to destroyers. Franz Joseph in his TOS Tech Manual rationalized this, as did a lot of fandom tech. (See the Starfleet Mueseum website or any of James Dixon's stuff).
As Roddenberry once said, there's a fleet out there but we only really get to see the Enterprise.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
There are a few enlisted out there in the Star Trek Navy, take a look at Star Trek VI they have those two enlisted guys that killed the Chancellor and Worfs father was a Chief Petty Officer and Chief O'Brien was a Chief Warrant Officer.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Since we hardly know what ships like the Akira class or Norway class are good for and what function they served during the DW, there’s nothing concrete to say Starfleet doesn't have troop transports, tugs, or missile destroyers.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Hello, all.
quote: There are a few enlisted out there in the Star Trek Navy, take a look at Star Trek VI they have those two enlisted guys that killed the Chancellor and Worfs father was a Chief Petty Officer and Chief O'Brien was a Chief Warrant Officer.
Indeed. Enlisted really did not appear in Trek until TWOK, or at least didn't have a seperate distinct rank device. There were a few in TOS with Yeoman Rand and a few techs.
However, O'Brien-- who's rank was just a cluster-frack in TNG-- was really a CPO, when he should've been a CWO being the chief of ops for DS9. He says his rank as CPO in an episode of DS9 when they introduced the current NCO ranking system seen in modern Trek.
The writers were never consistant with his promotions in TNG or in DS9.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The first NCO I can remember is the then-Mrs. Shatner as Chief DiFalco, Ilia's replacement in TMP.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: An army fella once told me that there are two things in life an army boy could never understand: Navy ranks and British money.
Was this person slightly retarted when it came to adding stuff up?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Hopefully it wasn't a reference to the current monetary system in Great Britain, considering that it's the same as in the US, except that the names are different (and the values, if you're converting). If it's a reference to the old system, I can understand. Yay, shillings.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: The first NCO I can remember is the then-Mrs. Shatner as Chief DiFalco, Ilia's replacement in TMP.
Uh...Rand?
-MMoM Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"Yeoman" is not a rank or grade, but rather a title like "transporter chief" or "assistant manager in charge of personnel."
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Yeoman (YN)is a enlisted rate in the Navy. Like my rate is AME or Aviation Structural Mechanic Safety Equipment. Therefore she is enlisted in TOS.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
When the triple fucking damn did that happen?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: If it's a reference to the old system, I can understand. Yay, shillings.
Good thing the US doesn't do anything like that. Yay, yards.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
And yet it's still called the English standard.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Well, if it were called the American Standard, people would always be confusing a shitty measurement system with a shit disposal system.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Was this person slightly retarted when it came to adding stuff up?
Retarted? This implies the person was a tart previously, and is once again!
Retarded, on the other hand... Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
If you really want to get into how Starfleet is unlike the regular US Navy then take a look at Commander Riker's beard and Captain Sisko's goatee. That would never been allowed in the US Navy
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Hello, all.
Re: Navy Ranks and British Money
I assume he could add stuff, but he was refering to the currency system of shillings, half-farthings, and two pences (the old system before the Euro) as a joke.
quote: If you really want to get into how Starfleet is unlike the regular US Navy then take a look at Commander Riker's beard and Captain Sisko's goatee. That would never been allowed in the US Navy
That and Riker's refusal of a command I]three[/I] times would have killed his career. Even once would've killed his career. Also, no one in the military stays at a posting for over 15 years or in a position for over 15 years unless there's a problem. (Spolier removed after--my apologies for a greivous error.)
Middy Seafort
[ December 30, 2002, 16:14: Message edited by: Middy Seafort ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Two things: One, well-kept facial hair is permitted in most wet navies today, I think. And two, the aforementioned description of the British monetary system is so ignorant and out-to-lunch I shall shut up and leave either Lee or Liam to make a cutting remark.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: I assume he could add stuff, but he was refering to the currency system of shillings, half-farthings, and two pences (the old system before the Euro) as a joke.
I think you mean before decimalisation, which was in 1970/71, as we still haven't joined the Euro.
The old system was slightly confusing but boiled down to: 1 pound = 20 shillings = 240 pence (so 1 shilling = 12 pence)
When we moved to the decimal system the pound stayed the same, but we replaced shillings and old pence with new pence so that 1 pound = 100 pence. And that's the system we use today.
A farthing was a quarter of an old penny and was withdrawn from use in 1961. I don't think there was ever a half-farthing.
Any other funny terms (such as florin or crown) are just amounts of shillings or pence (2 shillings for the florin, 5 shillings for the crown) and aren't any different to those strange US terms dime and nickel.
Oh and to get really confusing there was also a guinea which was one pound and one shilling. But since 1813 that's only been used as the amount or prize money in horse races.
And I typed all this for a system that died a few yars before I was born? I must be mad.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Dear, sirs.
quote:FROM THE TOM: two, the aforementioned description of the British monetary system is so ignorant and out-to-lunch I shall shut up and leave either Lee or Liam to make a cutting remark.
The Tom,
No need for cutting remarks. I admit I am not too familar with the British monetary system. I only know it in a passing, and from what I vaugly remember from both the Holmes and Hornblower stories and Brit TV such as "Are You Being Served?". Thus, I apologize for my inaccuracy in my previous message.
I was only trying to relay that my Army friend was merely making a joke about how Naval Ranks and British money could be confusing. The point of the joke is that an Army boy could not distingush between the strip ranks and the rank devices (since the devices mean something else in the Army). It was also a play on how us "ignorant yanks" sometimes only pay attention to our own money systems. He told this little joke to me, a Navy Brat.
You could, thus, insert any monetary system or service branch into the line. It could've been told like this:
There are two things that don't make sense Air Force Ranks and the Yen.
All this controversy over a little joke meant to illicit a simple chuckle-- if I had known, I wouldn't have used it.
quote:
From ID Crisis:
I think you mean before decimalisation, which was in 1970/71, as we still haven't joined the Euro.
The old system was slightly confusing but boiled down to: 1 pound = 20 shillings = 240 pence (so 1 shilling = 12 pence)
When we moved to the decimal system the pound stayed the same, but we replaced shillings and old pence with new pence so that 1 pound = 100 pence. And that's the system we use today.
A farthing was a quarter of an old penny and was withdrawn from use in 1961. I don't think there was ever a half-farthing.
Any other funny terms (such as florin or crown) are just amounts of shillings or pence (2 shillings for the florin, 5 shillings for the crown) and aren't any different to those strange US terms dime and nickel.
Thank you, ID Crisis. I am now better informed about British currency. Indeed, it was not the Euro I meant-- then again, I've never had a great interest in economy as a study. I'm a journalist, damnit, not a financier. But, as such, I should know better. Once again, thank you for the information and not the "cutting remarks."
Out-to-lunch, apparently.
Middy Seafort
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Aww, I wanted to make a cutting and witty comment. Poo.
Two things:
quote:Originally posted by Shik: And yet it's still called the English standard.
Actually, over here it's called the Imperial measuring system. So, nyah. Again.
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: Riker, in a real navy, would never SPOILER STUFF.
Cheers. Thanks. Whoop-bloody-pee. I do a MAGNIFICENT job of avoiding Nemesis spoilers. An astounding job. Best I've ever done. I only know the barest of plot details, and even then in very vague details. And then someone who thinks that Are You Being Served is an accurate representation of Britain today waltzes in and STARTS DROPPPING FUCKING SPOILERS!
Arse.
[ December 30, 2002, 19:23: Message edited by: PsyLiam ]
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Psy,
quote:Cheers. Thanks. Whoop-bloody-pee. I do a MAGNIFICENT job of avoiding Nemesis spoilers. An astounding job. Best I've ever done. I only know the barest of plot details, and even then in very vague details. And then someone who thinks that Are You Being Served is an accurate representation of Britain today waltzes in and STARTS DROPPPING FUCKING SPOILERS!
Arse.
First off, I apologize for not putting a spoiler warning. That is a greivous error.
Two, I never said I saw "Are You Being Served?" as an accurate depiction of British society-- I know it isn't, it is television and outdated at that. Nor do I think that it is what or is how things are in Britan. You have put words, inaccurately, in my mouth.
I merely was trying to point out what I vaugly remembered about British money, it's donominations and so forth, came from British TV and novels-- outdated, as such. And for that inaccurate memory, I apologized for not being as accurate as I should've been. However, I do not need your forgiveness in any case. In fact, I can buy or leave it from you.
I also will not allow you to call me an arse!
However, for your tone I wish only to put my foot in your arse.
I understand that you are upset and perhaps offended by whatever you think I am saying about British Society. In fact, I admire Britan and its Royal Navy. There is no need for name calling. In any case, you can bugger off.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Dr. Jonas Bashir (Member # 481) on :
I bet 200 quatloos against the newcomer.
Yes, it's a very geeky remark but also very appropriate...
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Regarding, the facial hair. The only reason why we can't (Sailors) is that back in the 80's, they banned beards for the simple reason you cannot put a good seal around your face with masks. I would assume that with all the life support, venting systems, and son on on board a ship, they wouldn't need such masks that need a seal around your face.
Also, another note, Rand should have been called a Petty Officer, not a Yeoman. Since O'Brian has been called Chief before instead of hisjob title liek Rand, does then there should be Petty officers there.
Even if we do see a handful, it doesn't add up. Like I said, enlisted members are 20 to 25 times more numerous than officers. Also there sghould have been Captains in every department, this doesn't mean they would be wrestling over the ship since there can only be one CO and XO on board. Just Captain of that department.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Captains as Department Heads?? No, in the US Navy Department Heads on an aircraft carrier are LCDRs and CDRs, the only Captains on board are the CO, XO, CAG (Commander, Air Wing) and DCAG (Deputy Commander, Air Wing. On smaller ships, the Department Heads are Lieutanants and LCDRs
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The point of this place, so far as it can be said to have one, is to talk about Star Trek. So it's a good bet that everyone here is interested in watching it. It is not a good bet that everyone has already seen something. Surely you can see why such discourtesy must be met with the fiercest resistence. Plus, Liam's "smackdown" was about as light as you can get.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I also will not allow you to call me an arse!"
But he's already done so.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Liam, there was no spoiler stuff in the comment about Riker turning down command three times. That's TNG. He turned down the Drake, the Aries, and the Melbourne. Moving on.
I'm amazed no one's mentioned CPO Garrison from "The Cage" yet. As far as the various Chiefs go, I never thought of it as a rate the way it was used in dialogue, as the individuals were always chiefs -- Chief Engineer, Transporter Chief, etc. O'Brien started on TNG as a Command Division Ensign serving as the battle bridge conn in "Encounter at Farpoint". A season later, Colm came back and his character had changed to the Engineering/Services Division, had gained a full pip, and was now the ship's transporter chief. He was even referred to in dialoge a couple times as "Lieutenant". A season after that, his backstory got expanded to include serving as the Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. In the fourth season, however, Ron Moore went to write "Family" and thought "Chief" meant an enlisted rate rather than a shipboard job title. Bam, pow, sunk in one.
--Jonah
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Woops. Sorry, Liam. I just realized you were responding to some other Riker comment that I can't seem to find. Never mind.
--Jonah
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Double hiccup!
I'll get the hang of this board, yet.. I tell ya.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Sorry, Per.
quote:Woops. Sorry, Liam. I just realized you were responding to some other Riker comment that I can't seem to find. Never mind.
--Jonah
I edited it out, so as not to repeat my mistake (by a newbie stumbling on to it) and retract the one I made.
Now, back to your regular debate about Starfleet and the navy.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Also,
quote: I'm amazed no one's mentioned CPO Garrison from "The Cage" yet. As far as the various Chiefs go, I never thought of it as a rate the way it was used in dialogue, as the individuals were always chiefs -- Chief Engineer, Transporter Chief, etc. O'Brien started on TNG as a Command Division Ensign serving as the battle bridge conn in "Encounter at Farpoint". A season later, Colm came back and his character had changed to the Engineering/Services Division, had gained a full pip, and was now the ship's transporter chief. He was even referred to in dialoge a couple times as "Lieutenant". A season after that, his backstory got expanded to include serving as the Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. In the fourth season, however, Ron Moore went to write "Family" and thought "Chief" meant an enlisted rate rather than a shipboard job title. Bam, pow, sunk in one.
--Jonah
I had forgotten about CPO Garrision, but was he's rank mentioned in dialogue or was it in the script?
As for poor O'Brien, it seems they were never quite consistant with his rank.
Middy Seafort
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Maybe Chief O'Brien got busted down in rank a few times.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Middy Seafort: Also,
quote: O'Brien started on TNG as a Command Division Ensign serving as the battle bridge conn in "Encounter at Farpoint". A season later, Colm came back and his character had changed to the Engineering/Services Division, had gained a full pip, and was now the ship's transporter chief. He was even referred to in dialoge a couple times as "Lieutenant". A season after that, his backstory got expanded to include serving as the Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. In the fourth season, however, Ron Moore went to write "Family" and thought "Chief" meant an enlisted rate rather than a shipboard job title. Bam, pow, sunk in one.
--Jonah
You're in a bit of a muddle there. He was called "Lieutenant" once, during "Where Silence Has Lease". His mentioning of having been Tactical Officer on board the Rutledge occured during "The Wounded", which was season 4, after "Family".
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*whine* I don't like being wrong... Well, poop. Looks like the writing staff didn't know what the frack they were doing with Colm...
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Well, poop. Looks like the writing staff didn't know what the frack they were doing with Colm...