As of 12/30, the street date for Season 7 of TNG on DVD, these starships are known as mentions in "Eye of the Beholder"-the USS Philadelphia , the USS Pueblo , the USS Seaview , the USS Silversides, and the USS Syracuse . So, a challenge, can you find additional starships in this episode? Thanks. Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Mentions? A terribly chatty control panel, that...
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Those are probably the only ships from that episode.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Ok, there are indeed 11 new ships:
Wallace, Darien USS Enterprise USS Seaquest USS Baton Rouge Starfleet Academy, Beta Ursae Minor II
Eckridge, Lois A. USS Enterprise USS Northridge ? Starfleet Academy, Beta Aquilae 2 ?
Salvatore, Bruno USS Donovan USS Enterprise USS Nils Bohr ? Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
Ziff, Anaanda USS Enterprise USS Malone USS Peterson USS Clavin (misspelled Clavyn) Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
Pierce, Walter J. USS Enterprise USS Emidazo ? USS Suleiman or USS Sullivan USS Chicago Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
Pacelli, Alfonse D. USS Enterprise USS Syracuse USS Philadelphia Starfleet Technical Services Academy, Mars
Finn, Marla E. USS Silversides Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
Kwan, Daniel L. USS Enterprise USS Seaview USS Pueblo Starfleet Academy Psi Upsilon 3
[ January 03, 2003, 04:20: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
For Anaanda Ziff, the three ships are the Malone, the Peterson, & the Clavin, references to characters on "Cheers."
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Oh my god. The ship list keeps boldly growing. Any change to post a screencap?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Any change to post a screencap?
The names are links to the screencaps.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Hey, that supports my theory of multiple Starfleet Academies! Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
So, that Kwan dude got posted to all three ships at the same time? Or are those dates NOT the dates of his assignments?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Holy shit. I'm going to have to get off my lazy ass and get back to work on my shiplist.
Thanks a LOT, Spikey...
-MMoM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
are those caps off the DVD or are there better versions coming?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I don't think the stardates make a lot of sense.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Thanks, Spike. For the Bruno character, on the last starship, I think the last four letters are DOWN.
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Snay: IIRC, the character was working at the shipyards, so he was probably doing work on multiple ships under construction.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
IIRC, Kwan was posted to the Enterprise. Was the ship at dock in the episode?
Remember: Kwan was the guy who comitted suicide in the beginning of the episode, and that led to the investigation et al. Kwan was actually alive in the "present" time.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Those are DVD caps.
There's more confusion with Kwan: Lt. Nara said, that Kwan knew the Enterprise better than most people because he helped build it back at Utopia Planitia. Troi said that Kwan arrived at Utopia Planitia six months after Finn's death. Beverly said that Finn was reported missing at stardate 40987.2.
You see the problem with that?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Salvatore, Bruno USS Donovan USS Enterprise USS ? Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
There was a Giovanni Donovan who was a modelmaker for Generations and First Contact according to the index of production personnel in the 1999 Encyclopedia. Obviously, GEN and FC came after TNG, but Okuda could have known the guy beforehand.
quote:Ziff, Anaanda USS Enterprise USS Malone ? USS Peterson USS Clayton ? Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
That doesn't look quite like "MALONE" to me. More like "MA_ENE." There was a Nancy Malone listed in the index, but she was a director on VGR, so I wouldn't think she'd be connected.
There were several Petersons listed, including Lowell Peterson, a camera operator for TNG.
A John Clayton was a construction foreman for TNG.
quote:Pierce, Walter J. USS Enterprise USS Imidazo ? USS Suleman ? USS Chicago ? Starfleet Academy San Francisco, Earth
No idea about the first one, but I think the first letter is an "E" instead of an "I." If the second ship is named for the Ottoman monarch, it should be "SULEIMAN." I agree that the last one looks like "CHICAGO."
-MMoM
P.S.
I was going to e-mail Okuda about this, (if I showed him the pics he might remember or be able to guess at what some of the names were) but I thought I'd better ask if you or anyone else already has first. Have you?
Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
Aha, it says 46xxx...we used to think it was 40xxx...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i definitely see Clayvin.. and if they used Clayvin, it seems more than likely that the names above are Peterson and Malone. i doubt that they would clairvoyantly name ships for people who didnt work for the show yet, and even less likely that they would pass up a chance for a TV reference injoke. i'll just say 'get with it, man' and leave it up to the more outspoken board members the task of actually insulting you on this one.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Captain, there is no need for harsh words. I see that you are quite correct, but didn't catch the connection until you pointed it out. (Haven't seen Cheers in a while. Good show, BTW.)
I was only investigating possibilities.
-MMoM
P.S.
For anyone who's never seen the TV show Cheers, which ran in the U.S. from 1982-1993 IIRC, the names refer to three regular characters from that program. (Sam Malone played by Ted Danson, Norm Peterson played by George Wendt, and Cliff Clayvin played by John Ratzenberger.)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
What's the correct spelling? According to IMDB and Dukhat it's "Clavin".
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Dunno 'bout that.
But now I see that I was even more out-of-sync with reality than I thought, as I didn't even see Dukkie's earlier post. This is bullshit. I should be slapped.
Can anyone imagine me on drugs? Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
sorry.. i was just giving you a slap that you should read that previous post because it made more sense than what you were saying.
i've always seen 'clayvin' but if it was 'clavin' that would be wierd cuz its diana's name. ok.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
here goes:
quote:IMDB says:Clifford C. 'Cliff' Clavin, Jr.
quote:[2003.01.02.17:07:38 EST] CaptainMikeKB: hey is the guy on cheers 'cliff clayvin' or 'cliff clavin' [2003.01.02.17:07:51 EST] towel onion q - Diana Clavin-Vallee: clavin [2003.01.02.17:07:58 EST] towel onion q - Diana Clavin-Vallee: my mom never shuts up about it lol
guess that settles it. except apparently everyone thinks its spelled different, like the guy who typed the okudagram.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Just remembered that Northridge is a city in California somewhere close by LA.
-MMoM Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
They had an earthquake
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
I believe the USS Suleiman under Walter J. Pierce is actually USS Sullivan, either in reference to "The Sullivans" or Danny Sullivan, take your pick...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
For anyone who's never seen the TV show Cheers...
Surely these people will have never heard of TV in general.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:"The Sullivans"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, can we assume this Alfonse Pacelli character was of an enlisted rank, seeing as how he apparently attended Starfleet trade school?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Are you OK? Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: There's more confusion with Kwan: Lt. Nara said, that Kwan knew the Enterprise better than most people because he helped build it back at Utopia Planitia. Troi said that Kwan arrived at Utopia Planitia six months after Finn's death. Beverly said that Finn was reported missing at stardate 40987.2.
You see the problem with that?
BTW, the whole thing was a freakin hallucination from beginning to end, wasnt it? does that make the service records not real too?
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
IIRC, Ms. Troi was in charge of crew evaluations. The records may be elements of her memory from reviewing the records. This could account for the errors, ex. a crewman posted to three starships on the same date.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i thought of that too.. what a cheat explanation.. basically, it gives us the excuse to explain away discontinuities we find in any dates we find in the unreal portion of the episode
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
My guess for the third name for Salvatore Bruno is NILS BOHR (the physicist).
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
I think that's a good guess.
I am adding these ships to my list. As for the questionable ships, I have them listed as Umizadu and Sullivan. (I see an u not an e or an i.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: i thought of that too.. what a cheat explanation.. basically, it gives us the excuse to explain away discontinuities we find in any dates we find in the unreal portion of the episode
Well, er, yeah. Don't you kinda have to? Unless you also have all the details in "Parallels" or "Frame of Mind" as being truthful and canon too.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
thats what i'm saying.. of course the events were unreal..
the computer displays however, are probably slightly accurate, but still, moot since they never appeared in a 'real' milieu.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, "Parallels" wasn't, strictly speaking, unreal, it just involved multiple lines of reality.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yeah, but anything that happened in the other timelines cannot be presumed to be true in the "real" timeline.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
No, of course. But, I'm just saying, "real" might be a term on loose footing when we're talking about more than one reality.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I'd say they're all equally real. We didn't see 'm much, but they're there, superimposed along with our own and every other version of Reality�.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
This is the e-mail I sent Okuda:
quote:Mr. Okuda,
I was glad to receive your reply on my previous queries, and another issue has recently come up on which I would greatly appreciate your insight. With the release of the boxed-set DVDs of Star Trek: The Next Generation over the past year, fans are getting a clearer and closer look at the shows than ever before. Because of this, we are beginning to examine in detail many of the displays and graphics created by you and your colleagues at the Art Department for the show. More and more we can be treated to the little �in-jokes� or clever details that were incorporated into these screens. Of particular interest at the moment are several personnel files that were displayed in the 7th-season episode �Eye of the Beholder.� They were not a main focus of the episode, but were visible enough to be at least partially read by viewers of the DVD. Among the information included in the files are the former and current postings of the individual Starfleet officers displayed. These include the names of several ships and Starfleet institutions. Could you help to decipher the vessel names in each of these displays? See below.
As you can see, these images are quite clear, having been shown in closer proximity to the camera in the episode. The starships listed are: -SILVERSIDES (perhaps named for the World War II submarine?) -ENTERPRISE -SEAVIEW (a reference to �Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea�?) -PUEBLO (after the U.S. ship seized by the Koreans?) -SYRACUSE (for the Greek city that was Archimedes� home, or for something else?) -PHILADELPHIA
This one and the others are much harder to read. The listed vessels are: -ENTERPRISE -The second name appears to be NORTHRIDGE. Is this correct? (If so, I presume it was named for the city in southern California where the earthquake occurred some years ago?)
I can barely read this one at all. Listed ships are: -ENTERPRISE -I can�t read this one, but it looks like it could be something like �EMIDAZO� or �UMIDAZO� or something. Would you per chance remember what it might�ve been? -This one is also very hard to read but it could be SULEIMAN or SULLIVAN. Does either name ring a bell? -CHICAGO (at least that�s what it looks like to me)
Another hard-to-read one. Listed ships appear to be: -DONOVAN (what�s the source of this name?) -ENTERPRISE -I can�t quite make this one out. An acquaintance suggested it might be NILS BOHR, for the physicist, but I�m not sure.
This one appears to have a running gag of ships named after �Cheers� characters! -ENTERPRISE -MALONE (as in Sam Malone) -PETERSON (as in Norm Peterson) -CLAYVIN (as in Cliff Clavin? I don�t think there should be a �Y� in there, but I�m assuming that�s what you meant given the above two)
It�s interesting to note that several of these individual�s careers included winning �Okuda Awards�! That�s cute. It�s kind of cool to know that stuff in the 24th century will be named for you, isn�t it?
Anyway, here�s to hoping you may be able to clear up the confusion around the uncertain names. Thanks for your time!
-Kristofer B. Olinger
I will let y'all know what he says when I receive a reply.
-MMoM Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
Why you guys bothering him again. Leave him alone. Like he remembers.
Actually he might. He probably is writing a reply now and will write some article or something like that.
You guys need to buy him a beer, or take him to a strip bar or something in appreciation.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Actually, Okuda has a pretty good record (second only to Sternbach, who will probably reply to a query within 24 hours if it's by e-mail) of taking an interest in fans' questions and doing his very best to answer them. I've corresponded with him several times, and he doesn't ever sound like he's annoyed at receiving the inquiry.
I know that he doesn't have the time to track obscure info down, but with something like these displays, I wouldn't be surprised if the visual cue would cause him to remember if any of those names are correct/incorrect.
-MMoM Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Did you receive an answer from Okuda?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
There was some talk earlier about how the stardates for the ships listed with these crew members were so close together, and in the case of Kwan, the USS Enterprise, USS Seaview and USS Pueblo were all the same stardate. I believe I have a plausible explanation:
These people were assigned to the Utopia yards, so that was their job. The ship listing above was the starships each officer was assigned to for whatever their particular engineering specialty was. In some cases that would mean they would work on one starship, and then a while later be assigned to another ship in the yard. In Kwan's case, he was a specialist in Warp engine control systems, and was no doubt assigned that task on three starships simultaneously. (He probably got used to travel pod trips!)
Sound reasonable folks?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I have received no reply as yet, but I have in the past found that it can often take a month or more for Okuda to reply to such a query as this. Presumably, this is because a) he's a busy man, and b) he may be taking time to look through old notes, etc.
Give it a little more time.
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: These people were assigned to the Utopia yards, so that was their job. The ship listing above was the starships each officer was assigned to for whatever their particular engineering specialty was. In some cases that would mean they would work on one starship, and then a while later be assigned to another ship in the yard. In Kwan's case, he was a specialist in Warp engine control systems, and was no doubt assigned that task on three starships simultaneously. (He probably got used to travel pod trips!)
Sound reasonable folks?
Sounds good to me, thats is basically what i assumed, most sense ive seen any make on here in a while. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I haven't read the whole thread but did anyone notice this:
One has to assume that some time between then is when they changed the Stardate system. Otherwise - she was quite advanced to graduate from the Academy at 6 months! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brown_supahero: Why you guys bothering him again. Leave him alone. Like he remembers.
Actually he might. He probably is writing a reply now and will write some article or something like that.
You guys need to buy him a beer, or take him to a strip bar or something in appreciation.
Will a calendar do? "Women Star Trek Fans of the Internet" Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: I haven't read the whole thread but did anyone notice this:
Since all of the files we see have very similar numbers on them for birth dates, I'm assuming those aren't stardates at all, but some other code for their date of birth. If they were stardates, all those crewmembers would've been born in 2363. Just not possible. Everything else about the files seems to make sense, so I assume they didn't just 'get it wrong' on that one.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
10004.5 would work for the Star Date of Births.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Or the stardate system acts like our time zones. A planet may have a different stardate than a starship. We have seen this canonically. Tuvok was born on 38774, in the year 2264, on a Vulcan colony. In that same year, the starship Enterprise had stardates in the 1000 to 2000 range.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: Tuvok was born on 38774, in the year 2264, on a Vulcan colony.
What episode revealed the number 38774? Was it attributed as a stardate, or perhaps a year that had some significance to planet Vulcan?
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
"Unimatrix, Part 2" Identified as a stardate.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Erh.
38774 would place his date of birth three years before TNG's first season, Federation Standard Time.
2264 doesn't mix with Janeway's "approaching the big three" comment, Federation Standard Time.
Time to hail Houston, no?
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
As I attempted to explain earlier, there is canonical evidence in the films and episodes which doesn't support the contention I see implied here.
The contention I see is this-Stardates are a form of 24th century time piece. They tell time for the crew of a starship or the populace of a planet. Like our time system (whose name eludes me), their time shows progression by increments of the smallest unit to the largest unit. The belief I see being written is that the stardates are the same no matter where you are in the Federation. From the films and episodes, I see evidence which is contrary to this hypothesis.
Evidence: *"Where No Man Has Gone Before". Elizabeth Dehner and Gary Mitchell are born on stardates 1089.5 and 1087.7, respectively. Their births occured on an unknown world.
*"The Battle". After the battle of Maxia Zeta in 2354, Captain Picard records a log entry on stardate 40877.30.
*"The Child". A plama plague strikes Obi VI on stardate 38325 in the year 2296.
*"Dark Page". The log entries for Ambassador Troi start on 36000 in the 2330's on Betazoid.
*"Unification, Part 2". Tuvok is born on a Vulcan colony on stardate 38774 in the year 2264.
Adding the latest entry from the episode in question, we have too many pieces of evidence which show the current hypothesis is in error and we may need to modify our thinking on the matter.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Teh C4PTIAN wsa Br0n 0n $T4RDAT3 1337 !!!1!!!! LOLOLERz omg.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Why are you refering to yourself in the third person?
Oh...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Not me, I was talking about Teh Captian. I'm CaptainMike.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by Brown_supahero: Why you guys bothering him again. Leave him alone. Like he remembers.
Actually he might. He probably is writing a reply now and will write some article or something like that.
You guys need to buy him a beer, or take him to a strip bar or something in appreciation.
Will a calendar do? "Women Star Trek Fans of the Internet"
But how would Denise feel about that?
And yes, stardates are variable and don't always make sense. Big fucking surprise. I'm astounded.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, to be more specific, stardates for events that predate the beginning of a specific series tend to not match up with the progression of stardates within the series. Or, I suppose, family of series. For instance, any stardate between 41 and 55 or so (or wherever Voyager got up to) can be pegged to a reasonably high degree of accuracy. But, for events that happened before "Encounter at Farpoint" things get messy. Take the Tsiolkovsky, which should by all appearences be a much older ship than the Enterprise D, but which had a stardate on its plaque that placed its launch in the same year.
This can only be expected, since the 4XXXX structure chosen for TNG was arbitrary, and not designed with back-dating in mind. And TOS stardates show the same pattern, being (relatively) predictable over the course of the series, but breaking down when it comes to dates prior to "Where No Man Has Gone Before," such as the good captain's birthdate.
I don't think I'm saying anything anyone isn't aware of it, but I just wanted to point out that it isn't the case that stardates are wholly nonsensical, just that the sense they can make is (perhaps purposefully) limited.
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
Any new ifo from Okuda yet????
Sorry about bringing the Wolf359 on up to the top i thought it was it but to find out it was this one hehe
again sorry
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sadly, no.
Rather than think he's ignoring me, which he's never done before, I'm going to be optimistic and hope that he's just been REALLY busy or something.
I suppose if, say, Spikey were to send him a similar inquiry to mine and see if he replies, that might not be too out of line. Maybe my message didn't get through or something...
-MMoM Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Maybe my message didn't get through or something...
That's possible. You should try again. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Okay, I've re-sent the message with the explanation that I feared it hadn't gotten through the first time. Hopefully, that will do the trick.
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