Granted the Sovereign was probably not intended to be a battlesihp when designs were drawn up, but I think its fair to say she's a better-equipped battleship than any other Starfleet design (possibly excluding purpose built Defiants). I was fishing through the DS9TM again and ran across a blurb about special weapons and equipment designed for the Sovereign class starship (in the phasers section of the book) and got to thinking about something.
Similar to how the U.S. Navy in recent years has drifted away from blue water operations and into the littorals...I wonder if Sternbach and the others were thinking about expeditionary syle warfare when they wrote the TM?
Facts: We have a massive starship that is armed to the teeth now with quantums, photons, phasers, and close range point (not necessairly "point" but you get the idea) defense launchers, wheeled vehicles that ride inside dropship style shuttles, the INS type shuttles (which BTW are probably the Danube class successors mentioned in the TM which more than likely turned out to supplement rather than replace), and pulse phaser rifles.
To me, this points to a Starfleet that's decided it needed to bulk up and be prepared to go planetside (space littorals I suppose)if they were going to win decisevly in future conflicts. The question is, who were they preparing for? The Borg probably drove many of the weapons systems that were installed during development, but certainly not the planetary operations equipment that was introduced. Maybe there was a lot of weaknesses revealed during the Klingon-Cardassian-UFP conflict and later the Dominion War which obviously had some ground combat occuring.
Regardless, I think it would be interesting to see some thoughts put down on paper as to the Sovvie's and her outfitted gear's purpose. I wonder how long in advance Sternbach turns in his technial briefs to STMAG before they are printed....wish he could squeeze in a brief on the Sovereign before the end.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
This of course has to be meshed with various plot contrivances and tendencies for the show. One thing we've noticed in recent Trek is that the bad guys tend to always have ships that are smaller/inferior to the ship in question (Voyager and Enterprise have this in abundance). In Voyager, the Delta Flyer was created in part to open up the more indiidualized storytelling options you can get from smaller ships and their smaller crews - not to mention Top Gun-esque VFX sequences.
In the present, TV (and movie) budgets can easily take several new ship designs on a weekly basis as needs require - one of the reasons we rarely saw proper shuttles for so long in TOS and TNG was simply because they couldn't afford to do it right. Now they can, and so they'll let their writers come up with stories that use these options.
Bringing this back, as a result of this the galaxy is now filled with lots of small ships where there were few before. Whatever the reason in the Trek universe, it has resulted in a need for tactical options for attack and defence on the big starships. As such, runabii, fighters, and CIWS-style weapons will find a niche in Starfleet's new and refitted designs. One can only speculate if such weapons were strapped onto other designs as well. For example, the 15+ tube Akira could have been designed that way with small-craft defence and assault in mind, especially given that it was designed as a fighter carrier.
Mark
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Starfleet sent a huge number of ships to a very small area around DS9, probably leaving a lot of other areas unprotected. They must have filled these gaps somehow to make sure they aren't plundered or invaded behind their back by a few small yet hostile governments. Hence, they send their most advanced ships -- Intrepids and Sovereigns, among others -- that will either talk their way out of the situation or look and act threatening.
If the Enterprise-E did participate in the Dominion War, and it probably did to an extent, it would've been in diplomatic missions given Picard's preferences. In FC, the Enterprise-E was ordered to watch the Neutral Zone while the fleet is engaging the Borg. In "Insurrection," it was on a diplomatic mission to meet with aliens-of-the-week. In Nemesis, it was again on a dangerous diplomatic mission to Romulus. The Bellerophon (an Intrepid) served as a diplomatic transport ship in "Inter Arma...".
Starfleet probably does not want to lose these ships so soon because they also serve as testbeds for the entire class, and it's nice to be able to show your allies/enemies where you stand. Another Sovereign could've gone to Jellico, who would've looked and acted threatening just in case an alien government attempts to use the situation to their advantage. A very different approach from Picard's own, but one for which a Sovereign is also suited.
After the war, these newer classes probably continued to serve as the kind of protection Starfleet didn't have prior to the Borg and the Dominion. Things won't get back to normal so soon.
Finally, just because the Sovereign has more torpedo launchers than the Galaxy class doesn't necessarily mean it is that much more a warship. It could mean that they wanted to simplify guidance systems on the torpedoes because of risks associated with close combat. It may make the Enterprise-E better suited for war, but at the end of the day, Starfleet is the defensive arm of the Federation; there isn't a separate military.
Boris
[ January 02, 2003, 14:13: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well thought out on both posts. I'd imagine that the Galaxy class ships have added the micro-torpedo launchers as well with the loss of the Odyssey in mind. Particularly in the rear aft quarter of the ship where a Galaxy has the leasy coverage. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Rear aft?
Redundancy aside, from above, the aft of a Galaxy would seem to be defended by four phaser strips (six if we're talking about the post-Venture refit era) and a torpedo launcher. From below, five strips.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Agreed with Sol. The Galaxy class is well protected in the rear.
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
if you take into consideration the Nemesis refit, it's rear is quite well defended now...
Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :
They were referring to the Galaxy class Endeavour3d, not the Sovereign.
So if I read the first 2 replies correclty you guys sort of see the same thing?
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
I thought they were comparing both ships? *hits self over head with stupid stick*
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I meant Ventral aft. No torpedo coverage down there. It's really the same firing arc as the Connie refit from that angle. I'd add (if I were to follow the Soverign's lead) a micro-launcher facing aft near the tractor beam emitter. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I meant Ventral aft. No torpedo coverage down there. It's really the same firing arc as the Connie refit from that angle. I'd add (if I were to follow the Soverign's lead) a micro-launcher facing aft near the tractor beam emitter.
There already IS a dual torpedo launcher, identical to the forward launcher just under the deflector dish, mounted right at the bottom of the secondary hull. That's not a tractor beam emitter...
Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :
Minutiae, now he's talking about the Galaxy class. Man this thread is confusing for some reason.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
More than one reason. What ARE we talking about again?
Mark
Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :
Well, initially I started this thread to see what folks thought about the Sovereign being developed as an expeditionary warfighter (for lack of a better term) and somehow it got hijacked into a GCS/SCS torpedo launcher debate
Okay...back on track now....maybe. This discussion stems from the comment in the DS9TM about special systems and equipment being developed for the Sovereign class...I was just fleshing it out alittle.
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
What other systems?
We have:
A landing craft/ground-transport combo
Captain's Yacht
Tons of firepower
Conformal shields (Replaces bubble shields)
What else do we need? Prehaps a shuttle/boat combo? Motercycles for larger away missions?
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
quote:expeditionary warfighter (for lack of a better term)
the official class for the Sovereign is Heavy Deterrence Explorer, I.E. BattleCruiser Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Sez who?
Mark
Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :
Yeah, where is that at "officially"?
And Styro...I failed to mention the iso(kinetic?) bazookas from Insurrection. The actual DS9TM blurb was regarding the new pulse phaser based rifles, but it mentions the Sovereign having new equipment requirements. I'm not sure what else she's packing.
[ January 03, 2003, 22:21: Message edited by: Shipbuilder ]
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Runabii?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I meant Ventral aft. No torpedo coverage down there. It's really the same firing arc as the Connie refit from that angle. I'd add (if I were to follow the Soverign's lead) a micro-launcher facing aft near the tractor beam emitter.
There already IS a dual torpedo launcher, identical to the forward launcher just under the deflector dish, mounted right at the bottom of the secondary hull. That's not a tractor beam emitter...
I was talking about the Galaxy, not the Soverign.
Posted by Endeavour3d (Member # 901) on :
I'm sorry, I typed it wrong, I mean't Enhanced Deterrence Explorer. Many sources online (do a Google search) has the Sovereign listed as an Enhanced Deterrence Explorer. Whether this is canon or not is up for debate...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
actually its not up for debate at all.. fanboy websites are not canon, no debate needed. there is no ship type or mission profile listed for the sovereign class in any of the filmed appearances, the scripts, the background preproduction sketches, or the creators licensed material such as encylopediae or TMs.
so there's no debate, the websites are definitely wrong.
Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :
That's not open for debate at all. Only when Paramount puts an official stamp on it, THEN it becomes open for debate
Seriously though, to save you the flogging that somebody is probably cooking up...unless its mentioned onscreen or in either of the TMs (or maybe the new tech supplements) I don't think anybody considers it canon.
Dang, Captain beat me to it....oh well I'll keep it up to second your motion.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
If I had to take a stab (shiv handy!), I'd opine that the Sovereign-class might be a "rapid response explorer."
When the Galaxy was designed, it was postulated that the ships would be embarked on 5-, 10-, or possibly even 20-year deep-range exploration missions--thus their sizes & facilities. But what did they end up doing? Running around, back & forth across the Federation on various crisis missions & exploding.
Obviously, there are situations that require a large modern vessel to handle the crisis du jour, but why tie up this huge assets? So we create the Sovereign, which has all of the same assets as the Galaxy if not slightly more, but minus the extranea--the familes, the vast amounts of scientific facilites dedicated to the 11-level branches of things; who really needs a xeno-ornithology lab anyway? Now we have a ship that can do these emergency situation runs & not have to worry about putting so many & so much at risk.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the Soverign is the product of a less niave STarfleet made for alll the same purposes as the Galaxy class. Hey Shik, got any new models? I'd love to see somebody make a cutaway of your latest efforts.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
[ January 04, 2003, 11:55: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Wow, my, my, three phaser arrays on the top huh? Makes that all the more canon.
Shik is partially correct. The Galaxy class was designed to have these long missions in deep space where they won't be in contact with little to no Federation planets, outposts and friendly ships. So she carries families and with alot of luxuries that most ships don't have. However throughout the 7 years of TNG, we don't see the Enterprise being sent out on those long missions, but going through a settling many internal issues.
My guess is that the Sovereign was designed to settle these issues so that the real exploring can be done. The Sovereign apprears to be more heavily armed than the Galaxy class. But then again, could the Sovereign class do the same missions as the Galaxy class? Perhaps. With the same efficiency? Maybe, but on screen evidence proves that Starfleet would rather send these ships on 'police patrols' than exploring.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
The discussion of mission types re the Galaxy and Sovereign classes got me thinking about how the shows tend to fall back on the familiar instead of having the Enterprise doing it's exploring strange new worlds gig.
Regarding the Galaxy class being designed for long deep-space missions, I recall that when TNG came on, within a half-season I was rolling my eyes. In the pilot they went to Daneb IV, "beyond which lies the vast unexplored mass of the galaxy", and, apparently turned right around and started crusing known space instead. It was stupidly reinforced when at the end of every other episode they were heading for starbase this and starbase that. If the writers had been on the ball they could have been heading into some new place at the end of each episode, and even if the stories we saw weren't always out in the frontier, the implication would be the ship was always out exploring between episodes.
I think it's obvious that the Sovereign was -- as all the ships are, really -- designed to look cool without really giving much consideration to what would have to go in it and how it would do its (unstated) mission profile. That was the case with the D too. Originally it was only going to be Excelsior length, but Probert convinced Roddenberry to make it HUGE. Why? Not for practical reasons. Cause it would be more impressive for it to be a giant compared to the old ship, I guess.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Why? Not for practical reasons. Cause it would be more impressive for it to be a giant compared to the old ship, I guess."
If you had to prepare an extended range mission of exploration deep into uncharted territory, would you select an aged, cramped, and ill-equipped Excelsior to fulfill the mission requirements, or the largest, most powerful starship ever constructed (up to that point), specifically geared towards the mission parameters and with the ability to show the flag if necessary?
In these cases, size DOES matter.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: I Have been worknig with my friends in the Core of Enginers to create a exaustive database of all Federation starships. We have decided to focus on the most important ship, those which have Borg killing power which is necessary to survive because the Borg are the biggest threat We are the crew of the U.S.S. Soveregn, NCC-77700, which has been refit with new technology to fight Borg and Dominion threats.
Hoax, yes? Yes? Please?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by E. Cartman: If you had to prepare an extended range mission of exploration deep into uncharted territory, would you select an aged, cramped, and ill-equipped Excelsior to fulfill the mission requirements, or the largest, most powerful starship ever constructed (up to that point), specifically geared towards the mission parameters and with the ability to show the flag if necessary?
In these cases, size DOES matter.
I wasn't implying that you wouldn't. My point is that, in general, the people making the show are after wow factor, not thinking about mission requirements and other practicalities.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The captain of the Soverign is twelve years old? See? They still have families and kids on the new ships after all! ....though, I'd let that CMO play doctor with me anytime!
I think the Enterprise D's mission profile must have changed after first or second season when it suddenly became "the flagship of the fleet". That's when the exploring really goes out the airlock and the constant troubleshooting begins. Mabye other Galaxy class ships got to have all the real fun and first contact situations while the flagship debated rights for sentient sand and nanites and exocomps and holograms and borg drones and....
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The captain of the Soverign is twelve years old? See? They still have families and kids on the new ships after all! ....though, I'd let that CMO play doctor with me anytime!
sicksicksicksicksicksick
i like shipz
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: there is no ship type or mission profile listed for the sovereign class in any of the filmed appearances, the scripts, the background preproduction sketches, or the creators licensed material such as encylopediae or TMs.
Actually, there is the semi-official cutaway poster from "First Contact" times with the Paramount log on it and Eaves, Zimmerman, Okuda, and Drexler all credited as contributors. That poster pegs the ship as an "Explorer Type II."
And before you jump on me, I know it's not solid canon by any means. But it's the closest indication of its type that I'm aware of, that has a Paramount logo pasted on it.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
USS Violator. Oy.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by The_Tom: USS Violator. Oy.
Whynot just name the ship "USS Ass-Rape" while we're at it. Just about as likely for a ship name. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Captain Dave Gahan? First Officer Martin L. Gore?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...in a movie directed by Joel Schumaker.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Idiot. I was making a Depeche Mode reference.
I'm really that old now.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
There's a difference? Sorry gramps, I missed your reference this time. ...now it it was the "USS Ultra" I might have got it! Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
that was a lot more clever than i ever could have given you credit for.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Runabii?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Yes, runabi. Plural of "runabout."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
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