In particular I need the fleet scenr at the end. I'm re-positioning my model fleet with many new ships and need to see how the ships looked in formation. Thanks in advance for any help guys!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 14, 2003 11:08 AM:
Shit! Somebody please delete this extra thread. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on January 14, 2003 04:51 PM:
Just to be contrary I locked the other one. It's curious how people more often tend to post a reply to the thread they want closed, rather than to the one they want replies in...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 14, 2003 07:47 PM:
Y'know - I've only EVER seen one person's version of caps for the scene at the end of CTA.
The same with ATTS - only one version - and that's a really bad cap - with lots of lines in it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 14, 2003 10:33 PM:
Too bad. I have a nice grainy download from Kazaa.....but that's it. Any ideas how many Galaxy's and Defiant's were in that shot? I recall lots of Excelsiors and Mirandas too....
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on January 15, 2003 12:25 AM:
I too have only ever seen the same grainy caps from when the ep was first shown. . . and in fact I can't even find the ones I saved then. Every image I found which looked like it could be the one had the Starbase in the background and was therefore from "Favour the Bold." Must have deleted the others, I guess.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on January 15, 2003 01:43 AM:
There were only two Galaxies in the shot, and two Defiants aside from the class ship.
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on January 15, 2003 06:26 AM:
This episode should be out on DVD on October 7, by the way.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 15, 2003 06:50 AM:
Not exactly right around the corner. I'd have sworn I saw ay least four Galaxy class ships in there. ...plus, there seems to only be one Neg'Var calss ship ever shown.....
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on January 17, 2003 04:04 PM:
And there are three other Defiants. I spotted the third quite by accident. Lemme drag out the ep on my next day off and see if I can get some decent grabs...
--Jonah
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 17, 2003 05:30 PM:
Cool! In the mean time (In the MEAN time, I'll do the job to the best of my ability... SIR!) (sorry Emissary Flashback)
In the mean time I'll post/upload all the cta pics I have of that scene.
I thought there was only 2 Defiants + the Defiant = 3.
*searches through files* (will I think they're all the grainy shots)
... please hold ...
ok stuff it - if Charles doesn't mind - I'm going to 'flare upload' all of the relevant files.
Thanks! In JPEG 04, what's the ship in the top right corner? It looks like the breen ship!
There sure do seem to be alot of Steamrunner class ships! .....only one sabre I could find though.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on January 17, 2003 11:46 PM:
Funny you should mention it, that one in no. 4 looks to me like a Steamrunner. You have a curved-yet-pointy saucer with a rim underneath, and what looks to me like a deflector between two pylons.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on January 17, 2003 11:57 PM:
looks to me like somebody used the reality melting transwarp weapon from Battlestations! on them.. i'll wait for better caps.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on January 18, 2003 02:52 AM:
The top right of jpg 04 I see as a Defiant Class, unless I'm looking at something different.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on January 18, 2003 04:57 AM:
Yep, that there be a Defiant-class starship.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on January 18, 2003 04:58 AM:
I concur.
Mark
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on January 18, 2003 05:20 AM:
Are those bops B'rels or K'vorts? Ignoring the raised wing flight mode, they seem kinda big while next to Vorchas.
And was the cta09 pic edited? There was a BOP under that vorcha.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on January 18, 2003 10:13 AM:
Yeah, at second glance I'd have to agree, that's a Defiant. There's either another ship behind it or some stars or something. . .
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 18, 2003 10:49 AM:
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: looks to me like somebody used the reality melting transwarp weapon from Battlestations! on them.. i'll wait for better caps.
I told you they weren't great caps. They are the only ones that have been on the net since CTA screened.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 18, 2003 10:57 AM:
quote:Originally posted by TheF0rce: Are those bops B'rels or K'vorts? Ignoring the raised wing flight mode, they seem kinda big while next to Vorchas.
And was the cta09 pic edited? There was a BOP under that vorcha.
K'vorts being the bigger? I'd say - they've always look to me - to be K'vorts - they are quite large. And I am going to take in wing angle - they are in the up position I think.
There are K'Tingas, B'rels (at least one - Martok's) K'Vorts and Vorchas. Someone mentioning only ever seeing one Negh'var - that's cause as Sisko stated at the start of TWotW - "Ah the new Klingon design/flagship" or something. Which was the brilliant DS9 crew being nice with continuity (unlike those in Voyager and Enterprise).
I agree it's a Defiant.
That thing behind it - is another Klingon ship (BOP).
CTA09 and CTA10 I believe were the only other different caps I found other than the original 8 from those ones posted in 1997?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 18, 2003 11:00 AM:
I just noticed in CTA09 - just above the starboard nacelle of that center/close Vorcha is a ship that looks like the Negh'var. Or is it just another obscured Vorcha?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 18, 2003 12:34 PM:
This is fun! It's like looking at clouds and saying "that one's a horsey, that one's a Defiant...." I agree that the blob from 04 has to be a Defiant. I wish we'd seen more Klingon designs in the war though. I still see at least four Steamrunners too! ...and mabye a Centaur. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 18, 2003 12:41 PM:
I worked out a while back all the centaur looking ships are Akrias - they're all in the background. I remember when we couldn't work out what the Steamrunners were - cause they look like Connies here.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on January 18, 2003 11:49 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet:
Yeah, at second glance I'd have to agree, that's a Defiant. There's either another ship behind it or some stars or something. . .
Take a real close look guys...behind the Defiant I see another Defiant. It looks like the nose is in shadow, but the curvature of the hull looks similar to the Defiant in front of it, and you can see how the light is catching the Bussard area. I honestly can't make a Bird of Prey out of that shape.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on January 19, 2003 01:29 AM:
Er, if you say so. I can't make anything out of that blob, be it a BoP or a Defiant.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 19, 2003 02:07 AM:
There you go. Defiant front, BOP (wings up - like the others in the bigger picture), back.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on January 19, 2003 11:39 AM:
So, there are four Defiants in this shot, including the class ship?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on January 19, 2003 09:59 PM:
We don't usually see BoPs flying around in space with wings up, do we?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 19, 2003 11:00 PM:
Only when they are the big muthas. And don't just go by that little pic - look at the full pictures - there are some clearer 'wing up' BOPs.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on January 20, 2003 03:43 PM:
The DS9 BoPs had their wings up when they warped solo (footage dating back to "Blood Oath" - and did that come from ST4 originally?) Relatively consistently, the wings went down whenever the BoPs fought. Basically, I think the wing movement was exploited rather logically and enjoyably...
"Way of the Warrior" had a BoP that kept the wings down during a warp chase alongside that Vor'Cha, didn't it? Otherwise, wings-down was a sublight phenomenon. Relative size of BoP wasn't a significant factor in determining wing angle.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on January 20, 2003 04:38 PM:
There were three positions -- up for landing, level for cruising, and down for attack. As the K'Vorts we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise" kept their wings level when they attacked, I happily adopt FASA's description of the larger variants. Basically, it runs that because of their size, any articulation systems in the wings would have to be prohibitively large and impractical, so their wings are fixed level. The K'Vorts are also not able to land.
All the BoPs in CTA having their wings in the landing position (except for the Rotarran) really makes my teeth itch...
--Jonah
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on January 20, 2003 05:03 PM:
I'm cool with banning the largest BoPs from flapping their wings. But on screen, that only applies to the "YE" K'Vorts, and to regular-universe B'Rels, as seen in "Rascals".
The midsize ships that probably are called K'Vort in the regular universe (including the Rotarran) definitely have the wing-tilt mechanism for "down" and "level" positions, even if they haven't demonstrated the "fully up" position and the landing capability. The nameless tiniest variant from ST3 (and arguably from "Way of the Warrior") has shown all three positions.
I could live with several ideas: One, that there are three sizes and each has a different range of wing positions. Two, that there are just two sizes and the difference between Rotarran and Bounty (or between the "YE" ships and the "Defector" ships, for that matter) is just an illusion, so there is no difference in wing movement range between them, either. And three, there are three (or more) sizes of BoPs, but only the very largest have any limitations on wing movement.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on January 20, 2003 05:06 PM:
Oops, you said the "CtA" BoPs had their wings fully up? In landing configuration?
Looking at the pictures of the Bounty sitting on Vulcan soil, I don't agree. The wings could have more than three positions, but the "CtA" one isn't the fully up one. Perhaps a bit above the usual level position, but not fully up. No sir, I won't buy that.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on January 20, 2003 07:52 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Perhaps a bit above the usual level position, but not fully up.
Well, flight mode is always slightly above level. Roughly the same wing angle as on the Klingon Raptor-class actually.
It's odd that nearly all TNG BoP had their wings always in flight mode, whereas nearly all DS9 BoP always had their wings in attack mode.
As for flying at warp in attack mode, note that the BoP in "Shattered Mirror" kept their wings down when at warp.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on January 21, 2003 06:12 PM:
Maybe at 'fleet wide' yellow alert situations attack positions are maintained at all times?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on January 22, 2003 03:00 AM:
One wonders if the CGI BoP is capable of moving its wings? Offhand, I don't recall any episodes that we've seen a CG BoP with its wings point any way but down. I was under the imprsession that the wings somehow needed to be up for atmospheric flight, but we know that they can fly with 'em down as shown in that episode where a bunch of 'em attack a ground-based Dominion base.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on January 22, 2003 04:13 AM:
According to Mike Okuda's text commentary on the new STIII DVD mentions that the reason why in later appearances the BoP had its wings fixed in one position is because the motors that made the model wings move deteriorated with age and stopped working properly.
-MMoM Posted by aneurysm (Member # 906) on January 22, 2003 06:40 AM:
hahahahhahahhahahaha i think he is starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel now!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on January 22, 2003 06:44 AM:
?
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on January 22, 2003 07:25 AM:
It's simple, after using the same ships for so long, every single BoP in the Klingon fleet was incapable of moving its wings due to rust. This is also why phasers were seen being fired from unusual positions on some D-7 cruisers, the torpedo launchers hadn't been oiled, so the inexperienced engineers just shoved a phaser coil in there.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on January 22, 2003 08:03 AM:
quote:Originally posted by aneurysm: hahahahhahahhahahaha i think he is starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel now!
What what now?
Uh, you guys may want to re-read what I posted:
"According to Mike Okuda's text commentary on the new STIII DVD mentions that the reason why in later appearances the BoP had its wings fixed in one position is because the motors that made the model wings move deteriorated with age and stopped working properly."
Note that I was talking about the STUDIO MODEL's mechanized wings. I in no way meant that this was Trek-universe explanation for the BoP's confusion about where to hang its wings, I was just noting that this is the real-life reason for why the movement stopped being seen.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 22, 2003 04:19 PM:
The arc of fire between completely up and completely down is almost the exact same anyway. It's likely that the wing position has more to do with the target's range than anything else: wings down for close range combat to get more coverage and up for long distance combat mabye (?). Kind of like the reasoning for the X-Wing in Star Wars.
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on January 22, 2003 07:02 PM:
quote: It's likely that the wing position has more to do with the target's range than anything else: wings down for close range combat to get more coverage and up for long distance combat mabye
Seems a bit complicated to change the entire wing angle mearly to increase the range. The simple thing would be to have to give the guns themselves the ability to traverse through a limited cone.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on January 22, 2003 07:41 PM:
The guns are traversing, as we see in ST5.
The only wing position that makes immediate sense functionally is the fully up one. It's the ideal one for landing, and seems identical to the fully down one as far as gun placement goes. The mid-position might be good for aerodynamic flight, but it's not essential - we've seen BoPs down and dirty in an atmosphere with their wings fully down (ST5, "Once More Unto the Breach").
Perhaps the most logical idea would be to say that the positions affect the shape of the warp field. Mid-position erects a "cruising" field, while other positions create a more maneuverable "dogfight" field shape.
And once you have that functionality, you can then add things that also partially benefit from the already available wing movement. One would be the landing and aerodynamic flight capability (which is why the warp wings look like aerodynamic wings). Another could be the wingtip cannon - moving them off the ship centerplane might protect parts of the ship from the firing effect, or something.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 23, 2003 01:25 AM:
[/QUOTE]Seems a bit complicated to change the entire wing angle mearly to increase the range. The simple thing would be to have to give the guns themselves the ability to traverse through a limited cone. [/QB][/QUOTE] nOt to increase the range, but to give more of a crossfire between the disruptors/ torpedo launcher at closer range.
BTW, have we ever seen the largest (K'Vort?) fire torpedos? I don't think so....
Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on January 23, 2003 07:31 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: BTW, have we ever seen the largest (K'Vort?) fire torpedos? I don't think so....
In "Redemption" (part 1 IIRC), one of the seemingly large BoP attacking the Vor'cha-class Bortas fired a torp.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on January 23, 2003 09:10 PM:
Or whatever those things are that come from the bow orifice. Dialogue did not confirm the torphood of that thing.
Perhaps the distinction between a green Klingon torpedo and a disruptor bolt is not as clear as we think. Klingon torpedoes might be casingless and use the disruptor effect, not antimatter annihilation, as the warhead mechanism. Easier to "tune" those things, "Generations" style, than it would be to "tune" physical objects like casing'ed torpedoes...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 24, 2003 12:12 AM:
quote:Perhaps the distinction between a green Klingon torpedo and a disruptor bolt is not as clear as we think. Klingon torpedoes might be casingless and use the disruptor effect, not antimatter annihilation, as the warhead mechanism. Easier to "tune" those things, "Generations" style, than it would be to "tune" physical objects like casing'ed torpedoes...
Timo Saloniemi [/QB]
That would explain why the Enterprise didint explode real good in STIII when the klingons hit it point blank with a torpedo while the shields were down.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on January 24, 2003 04:50 AM:
Well, that, and the fact that the last tactical officer aboard that ship to destroy an enemy ship in one shot was...reprimanded.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on January 24, 2003 12:10 PM:
Funny thought: Replace Kurge with the nun from Blues Brothers.... SMACK! with the ruler!
Posted by Sorak (Member # 874) on February 20, 2003 08:59 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Dr. Phlox: It's simple, after using the same ships for so long, every single BoP in the Klingon fleet was incapable of moving its wings due to rust. This is also why phasers were seen being fired from unusual positions on some D-7 cruisers, the torpedo launchers hadn't been oiled, so the inexperienced engineers just shoved a phaser coil in there.
There is no rust in space.
Download www.bravofleet.net/downloads/bfmovie.zip (it's a music video) which has some great shots of the screencaps in question. They move too.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on February 20, 2003 11:07 PM:
The rust was on the inside.
Posted by Sorak (Member # 874) on February 21, 2003 06:19 AM:
I know Klingons are stupid, but wouldn't you think they'd check for rust in the ONLY MOVING COMPONENT of their ship once in a while? Either that, or they could have automated systems to take care of that.
Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on February 21, 2003 07:29 AM:
Not necessarily.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on February 21, 2003 06:43 PM:
Why care about the wing position when you're fighting a Glorious Battle and drinking Klingon ale anyway? There are probably a lot of incompetent brats in the Defense Force (if all those ships even are part of the Defense Force. They might just as well be serving only a particular House). That, combined with all sorts of technical problems, and the fact that it probably doesn't really matter, could explain this.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on February 21, 2003 10:41 PM:
....and it would explain why the Romulans regard them so highly.
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