If starfleet officers knew about the TR-116 why were they never used against the Borg? The Borg have shields to protect them from energy weapons but are not very good when it comes to solid objects (physical attack by Worf and Data and the Holographic Tommygun).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The TR-116 being ... what?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The TR-116 is that projectile/transporter sniper rifle thing.
And I don't know why they didn't use it against the Borg.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
My guess is that not very many people know about the rifle. Probably only people with a special interest in that kind of thing would know about it.
Also (and I think we've chewed this over before), the Borg would probably eventually adapt to physical attack. They just weren't expecting it and were unprepared for it. If Picard started mowing down a whole crowd o' drones, eventually, they would catch on.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
I don't think we ever saw if the TR-116 had automatic capabilities. They probably require some reload time or something, which wouldn't be good against the Borg.
Posted by switchbladeNGC (Member # 983) on :
I would think that the borg wouldn't be able to adapt to bladed weapons or "fist fights". The TR-116 wouldn't use physics principles much diffrent to that (at least it would be closer to that than it would be to a phasor). Also i would think that even single shot capability would be better than none at all.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
They can adapt to antimatter-based weapons. (Energy release)/mass of antimatter reaction >> atomic reaction >> chemical reaction >> physical force. There's a reason why Starfleet vessels use antimatter reactors and instead of having their crews get out and push Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
The general idea of this question, "can Borg protect itself from kinetic-based weapons, ie. guns", has been debated for ages since ST:FC. I think one of the most common responses is that, yes, the Borg can defend themself from things like bullets and other high-speed projectiles; ST:FC involved holographic forcefield pretending to be bullets, and an edged weapon is fundamentally different from guns, being much slower.
Finally, the TR-116 never entered service. It was part of a Starfleet effort to development weapons that would operate in situations adverse to standard energy weapons. Regenerative phasers beat out the TR-116 (whatever the hell that is, writers seem to think slapping "regenerative" in front of a system makes it ultra strong, like "regenerative shields").
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"With the holodeck safeties off, even holographic bullets can kill." - Picard, First Contact.
Picard's holographic bullets were nothing more than 'smoke and mirrors', backed up by a forcefield. It was not an attack with a projectile weapon firing bullets with kinetic energy . . . it was a crafty forcefield attack that the Borg had obviously never encountered before, and had therefore not adapted to. The Borg were aware that they were in a holographic environment . . . not only was one of the drones Picard shot an assimilated ensign, but one of the holodeck characters was disrupted by some sort of scanning beams.
Some might suggest that Starfleet officers are all stupid, and that no one ever thought of trying to shoot the Borg with bullets. I suppose it is possible that no one ever tried to bring a gun to a disruptor fight (Borg drones, after all, are frequently armed with disruptor attachments, as observed in "Descent"[TNG], "Drone"[VOY], and "Scorpion"[VOY]).
But, let's look at the evidence:
1. We have never seen projectile weapons used against the Borg.
2. Starfleet has access to modern-design projectile weapons, and can evidently recreate old ones. (reference: "Field of Fire"[DS9], "A Private Little War"[TOS], "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], ST:FC, etc.)
3. Starfleet has studied operational drones and their technology, has extracted technology from former drones, and has studied non-operational Borg equipment. (reference: "Best of Both Worlds"[TNG], "I, Borg"[TNG], First Contact, "Scorpion"[VOY], "Drone"[VOY], "Unimatrix Zero"[VOY], "Dark Frontier"[VOY], etc.)
4. Several Starfleet officers and personnel have spent time as Borg drones, giving them detailed information on Borg technology. (reference: "Best of Both Worlds"[TNG], First Contact, Seven of Nine, etc.)
5. Phasers are particle weapons (reference: Picard in First Contact, Malcolm Reed in "Broken Bow"[ENT], Tuvok in "Endgame"[VOY], et cetera)
6. Borg drone shields stop phasers. (reference: Every Borg episode since "Q Who"[TNG])
7. When Starfleet needed a weapon that would work in conditions where phasers wouldn't, they looked to a projectile weapon. (reference: "Field of Fire"[DS9] TR-116 backstory)
8. Borg drone shields do not stop physical attacks, such as hands or knives. (reference: Every Borg episode since "Q Who"[TNG])
9. The Borg drones are capable of interacting with their environment. (reference: Every Borg episode since "Q Who"[TNG])
One could argue that all Starfleet officers are idiots, but I don't think that's the best, most reasonable conclusion to draw from the above data.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yay me! Er, I mean, oh God, not the projectile-weapons-vs-the-Borg thing again. . .
bBasically, we've seen, what, abut three Borg killed with physical weaponry? Two with a Tommy-gun, one with a Mek'leth. Every other exchange we've seen has involved a couple of drones being killed before the nature of the attack was analysed and counteracted. The Borg can't protect against everything all the time, or else they'd walk (or more likely float, or even bounce) around in solid reflective-silver force bubbles.
Now someone brings up the holographic bullets and I get a headache. 8)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It even looks as if the Borg protect themselves against *nothing* as a default. When they go against the Voyager crew, they are vulnerable to hand phaser fire for the first two or three shots, every time. They don't seem to care: instead of using their ocular implants to see "Hmm, that guy is pointing a phaser at me", they rather do the "Hmm, the shot that killed me felt like a phaser shot - let's tell my buddies to adapt to that" routine.
With that sort of mentality, it's futile to draw conclusions about what threats the Borg can adapt to and what they cannot on the basis of two bodies alone. You'd have to test-fire against five Drones at least to be sure. And since the budget for Borg extras calls for no more than eight per episode, you can kill five in the climatic final battle only.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
An analysis devoted to why Starfleet didn't invent better borgbuster-guns or massproduce slugthrowers is so pointless I get a dry mouth.
The writers simply avoided it becuase the Borg still needs to be mighty and among the Top Five Bad Guys, period.
That been said, it of course doesn't stop unofficial computer games or tacky fan fiction from going nuts with Anti-Borg paraphernalia.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...the Borg still needs to be mighty and among the Top Five Bad Guys, period."
Up until VOY, anyway.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
At which point they became Jell-O....
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Was there any episode that stated that certain drones wear body armor? What makes the tactical drones so "tactical"?
Actually forget about personal force fields, all a drone has to do is wear some bulletproof armor. Since a drone is stronger than a human and don't bother going anywhere fast, you can pile so much armor onto a drone until he looks like a medieval knight and then not even Worf can stick a blade through.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Which begs the question "what is the point of the Borg's exoskeleton armour stuff if it's not even bulletproof enough to stop chemically-propelled metal slugs, and holographic ones at that?"
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Possibly to allow them to work in vacuum?
I'm not sure the black clothing the Borg wear is supposed to be armor at all. It could be more like a full-body tool harness, housing those systems that aren't internally contained. Physical armor could have been found far too clumsy and ultimately irrelevant.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Vogon: "Which begs the question "what is the point of the Borg's exoskeleton armour stuff if it's not even bulletproof enough to stop chemically-propelled metal slugs, and holographic ones at that?"
Don't go there, it starts to spill over on the "Stormtrooper"-paradox from there... Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
But there were no bullets . . . no metal slugs.
(Sorry if that causes a headache, Vogon) Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Hence my qualification of them as holographic metals slugs. Don't YOU start, I had some twat emailing me a while ago saying I shouldn't call my website "phasers" as the picture on the front page is of someone holding a weapon that isn't a phaser. I kid you not. . . 8)
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Don't go there, it starts to spill over on the "Stormtrooper"-paradox from there...
...to which people eventually conclude: "they looked cool".
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: Hence my qualification of them as holographic metals slugs. Don't YOU start, I had some twat emailing me a while ago saying I shouldn't call my website "phasers" as the picture on the front page is of someone holding a weapon that isn't a phaser. I kid you not. . . 8)
Hehehe . . . yeah, you told me about that. Mine was the "Dude, it's EZRI!" response.
But, seriously, I was just reiterating it because "holographic metal slug" might, in some circles, still make one think of a metal slug, with its momentum and solidity.
(Yes, okay, I was just being a twat. I've simply had this conversation too many times before. Hence my big fat page on the subject.) Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Vogon: "Which begs the question "what is the point of the Borg's exoskeleton armour stuff if it's not even bulletproof enough to stop chemically-propelled metal slugs, and holographic ones at that?"
Don't go there, it starts to spill over on the "Stormtrooper"-paradox from there...
Stormtrooper armor is designeed to attract blaster fire and spare valuable equipment from being destroyed by stray rebel fire. I'd say I was being sarcastic, but it is the Empire and if you'll notice, the officers don't wear armor. The Borg's exoskeleton as aquired from intercepting old Frankenstien movies and they just thought it would be efficient psychological warfare on the humans: A far better tactic than their original plan to flail their arms and yell "Crush, Kill, Destroy!" over and over.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Exterminate! Exterminate!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
LOL!
So.......... the borg will get toilet plungers as mechanical appendages!?! Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: LOL!
So.......... the borg will get toilet plungers as mechanical appendages!?!
Only if they started assimilating large metal garbage cans.
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Giant novlety pepper pots, more likely.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by David Templar: Only if they started assimilating large metal garbage cans. [/QB]
Well, they are going to try to assimilate NX-01 are'nt they? Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
It would be amusing if the 22nd-century Borg flew around in upright cylindrical ships and decided the NX-01's saucer would make a nice lid. . .
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