Apart from the obvious federation encounters of "Regeneration", The Best Of Both Worlds" and "First Contact", what known encounters is there of Federation ships and the Borg? When was the First Federation encounter in the 24th century? was it the assimilation of the Tombaugh crew members or the Raven?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The Tombaugh was assimilated in 2362, the Raven left the Federation in 2354, I forget the timescale between the Hansons going rogue and the cube catching onto them but it couldn't have been more than 12 months.
Since we know that the disappearance of the Hansons was never solved until Voyager encountered Seven and it's quite possible that Starfleet never discovered what happened to the Tombaugh either so neither of these would count as a first contact. At least not a confirmed contact as far as the Federation was concerned.
Personally I'm of the opinion that Starfleet had known about the Borg way ahead of time, the Raven and the Tombaugh aside we know that at least 47 El Aurians made it to Earth as early as 2293. One of them must have told someone what they were refugees from, perhaps even given them a description of the cube ships, which would explain how the Hanson's had a description before the J-25 encounter. The fact that Guinan was the only one who had ever heard of them is hardly surprising, I'm sure Starfleet is aware of dozens of potential threats and they're hardly going to brief people who probably don't need to know.
As dodgy as "Regeneration" was it dose actually help matters, in my opinion because it gives Starfleet (both of them) a very good reason to keep a tight lid on the Borg threat, that being the Temporal Prime Directive, they would be afraid to alter the timeline and cause a paradox by alerting people prematurely. Indeed it seams that the Borg were well aware of the Federation since we know that in "Neutral Zone" they were probing the borders, the J-25 encounter was probably the only instance when a Federation ship actually escaped assimilation. Which could be the real reason why the Collective decided to attack; they thought their cover was blown and that the Federation would be preparing for them. So Q really did do them a favour, since they were coming anyway.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I rather like the idea that the upper echelons of SF perpetrated a long-standing conspiracy to cover up the existence of the Borg, from the time when they were first encountered in 2152 onwards. The motivation would be prevention of panic in the face of the threat or some-such.
Privately, I like to fanboyishly fantasize that Section 31 was created because of the knowledge of such threats as the Borg. I also have a really wild idea that perhaps the whole Excelsior project had its beginnings in Borg transwarp technology recovered from the Arctic crash site from "Regeneration." Only SF couldn't figure out quite how to duplicate it, and that's why it didn't work...
Would make an interesting fanfic story, eh?
-MMoM Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Privately, I like to fanboyishly fantasize that Section 31 was created because of the knowledge of such threats as the Borg.
In which case they really dropped the ball with the "Alien Parasite Conspiracy".
It's certainly a good reason to start off a secret organisation dedicated to detecting and eliminating threats before they become a problem. Of course along the way the operatives began to loose track of the morals and ideal that were at the founding of the Federation.
I defiantly feel a fanfic coming on. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I valiantly feel a cold coming on.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I valiantly feel a come on.
No wait. Oops.
As for there being a Starfleet conspiracy to keep the Borg from being public knowledge to early... Isn't that rather like denying the existence of a SARS epidemic in your city until so many people have it that it's almost out of control, then going "now we'll try to contain it and develop a treatment"?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'd think more like saying "there are no American troops anywhere near the city". If there is no way to alter the sad state of affairs, no cure to be found, then keeping a lid on it all makes sense. People will die happier. Or at least live happier until the very last hour.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
"There are no near indestructible cybernetic lifeforms in this city"
[In background] "Resistance is futile!"
"That is just my cousin. Ignore him, he is mentally disturbed.. Now I must be going."
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"Regeneration" Spoilers $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ OK... I just saw Regeneration on tape the other day. Surprisingly... my biggest problem with it is NOT that Humans have now had contact with the Borg so early. As was mentioned before... that actually helps some of the Voyager chaos established in Dark Frontier.
What bothers me is that they were able to come up with a way to fight off the nano probes. Also... why is it that it took so long for the assilimilation process to take effect? The other instances of assimilation we've seen are darn near instantaneous. It took hours before Phlox began to hear the hive mind.
The only thing I can think of is that the nanoprobes weren't functioning very well because of the original drone's deep freeze. But that's a stretch. Is there some other reason you can come up with?
As far as other encounters, Janeway mentions another Captain who has definitely had an encounter with the Borg and apparently survived. Don't remember his name though, or the ship's name.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: As far as other encounters, Janeway mentions another Captain who has definitely had an encounter with the Borg and apparently survived. Don't remember his name though, or the ship's name.
Captain Amasov and USS Endeavour?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Since we know that the disappearance of the Hansons was never solved until Voyager encountered Seven and it's quite possible that Starfleet never discovered what happened to the Tombaugh either so neither of these would count as a first contact. At least not a confirmed contact as far as the Federation was concerned. [QB]
Makes sense: the Federation has launched thousands of ships and lost dozens without explanation (or at least not comfirmed explanation anyway).
quote:[QB] Personally I'm of the opinion that Starfleet had known about the Borg way ahead of time, the Raven and the Tombaugh aside we know that at least 47 El Aurians made it to Earth as early as 2293. One of them must have told someone what they were refugees from, perhaps even given them a description of the cube ships, which would explain how the Hanson's had a description before the J-25 encounter.
The Hansen's description may have been pure hearsay or telemetry from deep space probes (we already know Starfleet had charted parts of the gamma Quadrant by this time via probes). The probes likely encountered a Sphere or something not Cube shaped so alarms never went off back at Starfleet after the "J" encounter. The Hansens may have been cyberneticists working for years on Bynar prior to the Raven's departure. It would at least explain their intrest in the Borg and their stupidity in going without backup and taking their daughter along. The thing I hate about the "starfleet knew all along" is that it makes for a crappy "X-Files" kind of thing in Starfleet. Crappy consparicy stories to come. It's FAR more likely that the Borg were only a very minor footnote in the archives and nobody ever kept track of them at all: No Starfleet ship had ever been lost (confirmed) to the Borg prior to the Raven and in the century between Regeneration and the raven's low key/ low priority mission to study a new species, the Federation encountered very real and present threats from new races and the occasional artifact like the PlanetKiller. In fact, it's likely that a team was assembled to continously study the PlanetKiller and not the Borg. [/QUOTE]
quote: Indeed it seems that the Borg were well aware of the Federation since we know that in "Neutral Zone" they were probing the borders, the J-25 encounter was probably the only instance when a Federation ship actually escaped assimilation. Which could be the real reason why the Collective decided to attack; they thought their cover was blown and that the Federation would be preparing for them. So Q really did do them a favour, since they were coming anyway.
Q really didint do anyone any big favors: The Borg probably were not intrested in immeadately assimilating the (comparativly) low-tech Federation untill the Enterprise demonstrated a super velocity drive far superior to Transwarp at the J system: the Borg could'nt have known that Q had saved the ship, they only saw something very useful to assimilate. They would'nt have been intrested in the Federation if Q had not saved the Enterprise. They sure were'nt intrested as far back as the raven's assimilation or even 20 years later in "The neutral zone".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Also... why is it that it took so long for the assilimilation process to take effect? The other instances of assimilation we've seen are darn near instantaneous. It took hours before Phlox began to hear the hive mind."
I believe Denobulans were supposed to have an innate resistance to the nanoprobes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Plus he was standing in sickbay where he could have given himself a biiig shot to slow down his metaboslism and whatever tricks his people used when dealing with nano-tech problems.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Yeah, because, they were like, y'know, so familiar with them and all that.... Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Some sort of Denobulan super-immune system would work. One of the issues with proposed real life nanotech (aside from actually making it) is not having the nanobots rejected by the body. The Borg presumably have it down, but Denobulans might have some sort of extra phage that attacks nano (in addition to its natural, prosaic duty).
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: The only thing I can think of is that the nanoprobes weren't functioning very well because of the original drone's deep freeze. But that's a stretch. Is there some other reason you can come up with?
I vote for the Denobulan super-immune system. I'm sure there are other races who would be assimilate almost immediately and others that might hold off the infection for days or weeks.
I don't imagine that the Klingon Borg seen in ST:FC was easy to assimilate, especially give the Klingons' redundant organs and apparently robust physiology.
quote: Captain Amasov and USS Endeavour?
Correct, but there is a chance that the Endeavour was the sole survivor of Wolf 359. Of course that is mere conjecture.
quote: Makes sense: the Federation has launched thousands of ships and lost dozens without explanation (or at least not comfirmed explanation anyway).
Indeed, for all we know the Hera, the Proxima, the Maryland or the Sarajevo could have been assimilated. Well not the Sarajevo since that ship supposedly made it back.
quote: The Hansen's description may have been pure hearsay or telemetry from deep space probes
Could be, but I'm more inclined to belive that the El Aurians would want to warn the Federation about the force that destroyed their world.
quote: The thing I hate about the "starfleet knew all along" is that it makes for a crappy "X-Files" kind of thing in Starfleet.
I wouldn't exactly call it a conspiracy, simply classified information that anyone with a high enough clearance can access. the only conspiracy would be the imperative to protect the timeline and uphold the Temporal Prime Directive.
After all Starfleet would have a fairly limited ammount of information up until the events of BOBW. All they would know that there is a dangerous and technologically advanced, cybernetic species out there that flys around in cube shaped vessels, are generally hostile, capable of time travel and thought to have or will have a particular interest in Earth. I'm sure Starfleet has dozens of such reports marked "may cause the destruction of civilisation as we know it".
quote: Q really didint do anyone any big favors: The Borg probably were not intrested in immeadately assimilating the (comparativly) low-tech Federation untill the Enterprise demonstrated a super velocity drive far superior to Transwarp at the J system: the Borg could'nt have known that Q had saved the ship, they only saw something very useful to assimilate.
As I recally the Borg seamed pretty intent on assimilating the Enterprise before Q clicked his fingers. So the circa 2360's Federation technology must have been interesting enough for them to bother with. Plus a Galaxy Class Starship is quite a step up from an old 2350's survey vessel. The Super-Transwarp-Q-Drive would just have been the iceing on the cake.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Correct, but there is a chance that the Endeavour was the sole survivor of Wolf 359. Of course that is mere conjecture.
I thought that was the Ahwahnee...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: I thought that was the Ahwahnee...
It could be either.
There was another Ahwahnee with a similar registry shown on a display in "Redemption", but that may not necessarily have been the same ship and even if it was it might simply have been salvaged from W359 and therefore it couldn't have been technically considered a survivor. A situation which would be consistent with the state of many of the other ships in Picard's Armada, given that it had just undergone or was still in the process of being refitted.
Alternatively the "Redemption" Ahwahnee could simply be another ship with a very similar registry that was remained after W359 and given the surviving Captain and/or crew of the previous vessel.
Personally though I perfer to think the Endevour was the lone survivor, mainly because when the Enterprise turned up there were no life readings which meant someone had to have picked up all those escape pods.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Personally though I perfer to think the Endevour was the lone survivor, mainly because when the Enterprise turned up there were no life readings which meant someone had to have picked up all those escape pods.
Or the Borg stuck around just long enough to get the bulk of the escape pods.
I've always wondered why the Borg didn't leave a hundred or so drones scattered thru-out the wreckage of the StarFleet ships. With all those raw materials around, they could have put together a working ship in a relatively short amount of time, given their general efficiency.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Locutus may have realized there were additional ships en route (Klingons) that the Borg had not encountered before and that could have thrown in a wild card best left avoided until after Earth's assimilation was throughly under way. San Francisco would have made such a lovely Cube too...
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
My thinking on that subject is that if they'd left a hundred or so drones behind, they would have virtually assured a Borg presence in the Alpha quadrant, and at Earths back door. Think of it, IIRC, E-D arrived hours after the battle had taken place, right? In that time, it might have been possible for the Borg to have gotten at least one small ship, if not more, space worthy by their standards and limped to a nearby star system. Or better yet, four or more groups of Borg could have gone to four or more different star systems. Little Borg colonies that would take a relatively short amount of time to pose a threat to the rest of the Federation. Think about it. A few small ships disappearing here and there. A prospector ship goes missing. A small transport fails to show up on time. A pleasure ship just disappears.
After all, what's 100 or so drones to a Borg cube that likely has 100,000+ on board when compared to the taking of the Federation?
Of course, the real reason is: it wasn't in the script.... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Borg overconfidence and Picard's subconsious fighting the Borg are the only reasons that make sense.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd vote for the former, along with the idea that the Borg simply aren't in a hurry to assimilate the known universe. Otherwise, well, they'd have probably done it by now.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Then why did the even make the trip to the Alpha quadrant...? They've done the same thing that everyone has bitched about the Xindi doing in "The Expanse" - they've given fore-knowledge of their intensions and pretty much made the Federation work harder to be prepared for them if they should ever come in-force. Tacticly speaking, if splitting off a small force won't make a difference in an upcoming major battle, but could possibly help to win the war, you do it.
So much for the logical thinking of the Borg, neh? They should've just left them in the Delta Quadrant after "Q Who"....
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Because what you are proposing is too cunning for the Borg to do. They are little more than cybernetic juggarnauts, not a rebel terrorist group hiding out in the Bad Lands...they just don't work that way.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I agree. The Borg may not have been going after the Federation directly after the first contact in the "J' system. They probably just made a note to assimilate the Federation when their appointment calander had an opening and they had a ship in the area for other fun. Mabye they waited untill the ship that scooped up the colonies in The Neutral zone was as large as the one in the J system or untill the two ships could randevous.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Except that, as shown, the Borg should be more cunning than a fox with a degree in cunning plans from the University of Cunning.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
University of...?
Crack, Sol: It's a bad thing, remember? Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Crack, Sol: It's a bad thing, remember?
Leave him alone, he's been through enough, what with all the destructive alien probages he's received, and those two Borg Cubes from behind.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh yes.
Huh?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Blackadder. The third, I believe.
One theory of mine (if you want to go down the Borg Are Really Clever path) is that the Borg have a cunning (yes!) plan.
Look at it this way. The Borg show up out of the blue in 2365, with about 5 cubes, and invade the Federation. They get a certain level of tech, and all is good (for them).
Now, look at it another way. They turn up in 2364 and assimilate a couple of places. Federation (and Romulans) investigate. They panic a bit. No doubt R & D money goes up.
The Borg encounter the Enterprise in 2365. The Enterprise reports back to Starfleet. R & D goes into overdrive (and I'll admit that the Borg didn't plan this step, but it did work out for them).
Now, the Borg send along a single cube in 2366. Their thinking is that if a single cube is enough, then the Federation is obviously rubbish at research, and there is no point in putting off assimilation any longer. However, if the Federation has advanced enough to stop the cube, then obviously they are genius inventing people. This also plays into the Borgs' hands (and twitching thingies). The Borg could send a fleet to sector 001 and assimilate the Federation any time they wanted, but by sending only a ship at a time, they keep the Federation on their toes, and get them developing tech at a much faster rate.
So, when the Borg do eventually get around to assilating the Federation, they get the benefit of years of paniced research into anti-Borg weapons. This will make the Borg a lot stronger than if they'd just assimilated them at the start.
Of course, this whole theory depends on whether you are taking the "emotionless force of nature" early Borg, or the "shock troops of bald woman" later Borg.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I'm not sure there is too much they can do following the NZ investigations, as far as R&D...considering no one knows who did it, and thus no one knows WHAT to do to even prevent it or what exactly they are preventing or where to even begin. Especially since it seems as though that point was lost except for the brief notes of reference in "Q Who" and "BoBW" as the Borg 'footprint' or what have ya...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I thought I would bring this up as syndication just re-ran "Dark Frontier" and I caught something about 'Starfleets concern about security' while watching part of it.
Upon further investigation, I noticed on the "official website" a somewhat plausable explaination as to why the Borg were not more common-knowledge during the 24th Century despite the El Aurians and everything else ("Regeneration" events aside)....
quote: Re: U.S.S. Raven....
At least 10 years prior to the U.S.S. Enterprise-D's first encounter with the Borg, the Federation had some knowledge of the existence of the Borg, based on encounters with species who had been affected by them (such as the El-Aurians, whose homeworld was destroyed 90 years before).
However, such knowledge was not made public among the Federation because information was too sketchy and unconfirmed to hold briefings with Starfleet personnel. (For example, there were descriptions of cube-shaped vessels, but no information on what Borg individuals looked like, other than rumors that they were cybernetically enhanced.)
Two of the people privy to these rumors were Magnus and Erin Hansen, who petitioned the Federation Council on Exobiology to let them travel deep into unknown space on the U.S.S. Raven to observe and study the Borg. Their petition was granted ca. Stardate 32611, in spite of Starfleet's concern about security issues, and the Raven departed from Deep Space 4 toward the Delta Quadrant.
I know it sounds like the writers trying to weasle their way out of Voyager totally fucking up Borg continuity (or the web content advisors covering the writers asses), but I think I can almost buy this as an explaination for the consistant 'fallback' of the date of 'first contact'.
Obviously this was writted before "Regeration" but this seems to sum it up pretty well..."not made public among the Federation because information was too sketchy and unconfirmed".
I guess that leaves us to ponder that perhaps Starfleet either was not overly concerned about a threat located so far away with localized (of the time) threats like the Klingons and Romulans. Or, maybe it was just something they didnt feel they needed to worry about, and treated it skeptically like current governments do regarding UFOs! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It just makes ne wonder why the Romulans have not been given a friendly little visit by the Borg. Unique tech there to be sure.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Actually, they did get visited. In the TNG Episode "The Neutral Zone", it is heavily insinuated that his is what happened to outposts on both sides that had "disappeared". It's the reason that the Romulan's make their appearance again after some years (I forget the exact amount of time) of being "absent". It's not until 2nd Seasons "Q Who" that we actually meet the Borg, and then in "Best of Both Worlds, Part 1" the disappearance of the outposts from "The Neutral Zone" is brought up again.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I know, but why did they never get their own cube gunning for their main world while the Fed got two? I suppose the borg could be suckered if the colonies they assimilated had no real tech and were agricultural in nature. They just would'nt be intrested in hydroponics. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, we saw a Romulan who'd been assimilated before "Unity."
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