This is from the DS9 Season 3 DVD thread, but since it's a separate topic, I figured I'd start a new thread.
I've always had the impression that the origin of the inability to fire while cloaked in "Balance of Terror" was because the Romulan plasma weapon was such a hugely massive device that drew a lot of power.
I would've thought that normal phasers wouldn't draw as much power, thus allowing ships to fire while cloaked. And a normal photon torpedo system would almost certainly draw even less power, making them probably the most practical option -- like with Chang's Bird-of-Prey.
Based on TUC, it's obvious that firing while cloaked can be dangerous because the fire can be tracked to the source. But that doesn't explain why ships should be INCAPABLE of firing while cloaked...
I think that this whole issue (especially in the TNG/DS9 era) is a side effect of an anachronistic plot device from the very first episode. After all, the only reason why the BoP needed to decloak in "Balance of Terror" was so the viewers could actually see it! Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
To draw on a comment made on the DS9 DVD thread:
quote:Originally posted by Harry:
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Obviously Chang & Co. overcame it 80years earlier in TUC for his BoP, why hasn't that been overcome again?
The semi-official explanation is that Chang's cloak and anti-cloak technology develop at a high rate. So, Chang's cloak wouldn't be of any use to the latest Federation cloak detectors. And in turn, a better Klingon cloak means you can't fire through it anymore.
And perhaps 'current' technologies are advancing faster and cloaks are so good that there isn't enough time to develop fire-while-cloak tech.
I recall in "Contagion" - after the Yamato was destroyed, the Warbird appeared, and Picard told the Romulans they were gonna stick around in order to investigate the destruction of their sister ship - the Warbird cloaked and Riker said: "Good, they can't fire when they are cloaked"; and Worf replied: "Unless they have overcome that deficiency".
That would seem to make it appear as if it a one sided issue, in as much as to say overcoming the ability to fire while cloaked is as big a step technologically as the cloak itself was. Much less than a 'arms-race'-type scenario.
Considering what we have seen in "The Next Phase" and "The Pegasus", you might be able to draw the conclusion that the 'phased cloak' is an equally adventurous, if not, more useful device and it was decided to pursue that rather than simply pursing a fire-through-cloak, as either seem to be a rather large step-up from the standard cloaking device, the phased cloak seems to be just an extra step bigger.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Well, if the cloak in question is of the "spacial distortion field around ship" type cloak, firing through it would represent a serious problem, as the weapon fire would disrupt the field as they exit it. Havinig the shield and the navigational deflector up would also interfere with the cloaking field.
If the cloak is the Suliban, "cloaking particle" cloak, then that problem would not exist. I think the Scimitar might have had that, since they were able to drop their cloak for specific portions of the ship. Plus fire through their cloak, having their shields up while cloaking, etc.
Though, there seem to be a slight disruption in their cloak when she drops out from warp, but I'm not sure why that is.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I never got how the phasing-cloak was an advantage. How often do you need to fly through asteroids anyway?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Well, it would be nice if enemy fire (torpedoes, phaser blasts, etc.) just passed through you harmlessly instead of actually impacting Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Kidding right? Weapons would pass through your ship instead of...well through your ship! Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Plus your ship will be able to get inside large defensive fields, the sort that might protect space stations, asteroid and planet bound installations. Also as stated in "Pegasus" a ship will be able to hide within a planetary crust or other usually unreachable places.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Although while hiding in a crust you'd better hope to hell the cloak doesn't fail...
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
I think that the fact that we have not seen any other Klingon ships fire while cloaked may have been the byproduct of the Khitomer accords, that the Klingons would not develop such technology. Likewise, the treaty between the Romulans and Federation specifically stated that the Federation would not develop cloaking technology, with the notable exception being the Defiant.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well it was a Romulan cloak on the Defiant under the auspices of a prearranged agreement. However, I couldn't see why they didn't just recycle the use of the Pegasus cloak. A phasing cloak could have been enough reason to write an interesting story or two.
Anyway, didn't Geordi say something about the Klingons creating/testing a not-so-successful phasing cloak sometime back? Apparently this would seem to fall outside of any agreement preventing a 'firing-well-cloaked' cloak.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I always wondered what happened to the Pegasus's cloak. I highly doubt that SF would simply destroy it. Someone must've pulled a few strings and kept onto that.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"A phasing cloak could have been enough reason to write an interesting story or two."
What, like "The Next Phase"?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Which, incidentally, sucked...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Psyliam: "I never got how the phasing-cloak was an advantage. How often do you need to fly through asteroids anyway?"
Despite the obvious tactical advantages already mentioned, it would be a revolutionary time-saving step in mere space flight, especially advantegous for couriers. An extreme decline in course deviations due to stellar bodies, radiation fields, any concievable obstacle. Much less zig-zagging. They'd be able to shave off weeks in some cases, I'd bet. The only thing a ship would have to heed would be no-fly zones and borders.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Well, it would be nice if enemy fire (torpedoes, phaser blasts, etc.) just passed through you harmlessly instead of actually impacting
Surely if you are already cloaked you aren't expecting things to hit you anyway? How often have cloacked ships ever actually been shot in Trek?
And I'm not buying the "it saves time while travelling" idea either. To quote Mr Adams, space is big. Really big. How often are there going to be things in your way?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
According to Trek lore, every other week.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, they purposefully fly over to look at those things, so that the entire crew can say "oooooooh, pretty!"
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I tried to figure this one out some time ago for a Tech Manual I did.
Reasons for not being able to fire:
A - Too much power demand (Chang had two warp cores in one hull - useful for an ambush vehicle - but not practical for chase due to bigger mass constraints).
B - Cloak interferes with targeting sensors - after all, if it bends incoming energy 'around' the vessel - ait might presumably reflect outgoing energy (heat signature etc.) back in towards the vessel. The BoP could 'see' via gravitic sensors, but at poor resolution.
C - Cloak interferes with weapons fire. As above, but with disrupter energy reflected back to Bop (or just absorbed by cloak - which after all is an adjunct of the shields). I don't see how this would affect torpedoes. Actually, in Generations, didn't the Duras sisters fire out from a cloaked BoP?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
C. No.
D. But in Nemesis, Shinzon apparently learned how to overcome the "can't fire while cloaked."
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
B - Chang sure didn't have any problems plastering the Enterprise through its cloak, and it hit the Excelsior on its first shot, as well.
C - All the Duras sisters did was fire through the Enterprises shields and then the Enterprise triggered their cloak which coincidently dropped its shields....
D - I though Shinzons cloak was so perfect that it could be dropped just quick enough to fire and recloak without allowing the Enterprise to lock onto its position.
--------------------------------------
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"A phasing cloak could have been enough reason to write an interesting story or two."
What, like "The Next Phase"?
As if the Defiant had it and to give it a good reason to utilize it in an episode versus say, visiting a planet that incorporated talking or visiting people in a different time frame...
Posted by NightWing (Member # 4) on :
Well, it was pretty clear that the Scimitar could partially decloak. So I think decloacking an ever so small part to be able to fire would be a reasonably logical explaination.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by NightWing: Well, it was pretty clear that the Scimitar could partially decloak. So I think decloacking an ever so small part to be able to fire would be a reasonably logical explaination.
Possibly only the weapon's port decloaked on the Scimitar while firing. It is, after all, the only time we've seen a ship with several cloaking generators for various parts (that can be switched on or off too!)of the ship instead of one central unit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's also entirely possible that both Valdore-type Warbirds have the same cloaking tech as the Scimitar and just didint use it whilr fighting so close to the Enterprise. Only one collision allowed per movie.
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