I have been holed up for the last three-four weeks engrossed in this work. You have done (are doing?) a fantastic job. We're experiencing 90+ degree weather here in Tokyo and I'm simply sitting by the pool working on the master timeline!
I still haven't gotten into part 2 yet, but I wanted you to know that this detail is incredible. I feel that the Decipher starship thread mentions just didn't do it enough justice. I recognize a lot of other previous histories thrown in (including FASA's) and I'm hoping to incorporate it (somehow) into Masao's timeline.
Is there a chance you'll be able to notify us when you add/flesh out new classes?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, I can always resend zip files of the entire thing... because what I'm currently doing is rethinking the fundamentals, like ship masses or phaser types. I had relatively little FASA material originally to work with, but now I've found a few net sources, and am trying to make the masses jibe etc.
Ships currently under work: the Derf class buoy tenders, which are heavier combatants than some of the FASA cruisers... I'll change whatever I must to make ships like this fit, but I'll make no effort to fit in the ugly majority of FASA ships. The Loknar/Larson/Derf style is at least halfway palatable...
I'd love some feedback, of course. And somebody to do the artwork. And to proofread... I've found plenty of clear errors in the attributions, and several cases where I changed a SFC or FASA design when I didn't have to.
Underlying it all is the gut-gnawing feeling that half of this is gonna be outdated by "Enterprise" anyway. I'm still trying to decide whether I care.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
But... It's so close to perfection already! The only thing I'd noticed is the copious use of your pluralizations for the ships:
"The Dominion war saw the Renaissances mainly taking part in counter-raiding operations. "
"It would not be until the Dominion invasion that the Mediterraneans and the Caspians would be pressed to an active combat role."
"Retirement of the Cheyennes was out of the question, however."
While grammatically acceptable, to me it can sound rather awkward - especially when repeated so frequently. Was it a deliberate choice to avoid adding "-class" at the end of a name? For example:
"Retirement of the Cheyenne class was out of the question, however."
More a question of grammatical curiosity more than anything else... The content, of course, is fantastic.
Mark
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Well, I can always resend zip files of the entire thing... because what I'm currently doing is rethinking the fundamentals, like ship masses or phaser types. I had relatively little FASA material originally to work with, but now I've found a few net sources, and am trying to make the masses jibe etc.
I'm a big mass guy and would like to see your input on that. I was already trying to determine what might the masses be based upon your quote of Powers massing 2300 mt. Are you going with the FJ Connie mass of ~200K or the Scotty quote of ~900K as a basis?
quote:Ships currently under work: the Derf class buoy tenders, which are heavier combatants than some of the FASA cruisers... I'll change whatever I must to make ships like this fit, but I'll make no effort to fit in the ugly majority of FASA ships. The Loknar/Larson/Derf style is at least halfway palatable...
I've always been a fan of FASA for including the working ships, and the Derf is definitely a Coast Guard-ish model. I don't feel you should be restricted to any one standard, as this is 'your' fan universe (as Masao's has his). You set the standard and grab that inspiration from wherever it pokes its head.
quote:I'd love some feedback, of course. And somebody to do the artwork. And to proofread... I've found plenty of clear errors in the attributions, and several cases where I changed a SFC or FASA design when I didn't have to.
I'd be glad to act as a proofreader, grammatically speaking. I noticed a few errors and loose-ends, but had assummed that they were areas you had intended to go back on and fill in. I have your e-mail address. Let me finish my timeline and initial reading, and then I'll go back and do an entry-by-entry critical look.
quote:Underlying it all is the gut-gnawing feeling that half of this is gonna be outdated by "Enterprise" anyway. I'm still trying to decide whether I care.
Please don't (care). While I enjoy ENT, it has lessened the excitement of exploration, making so many 'firsts' in 2 seasons that it seems like that much smaller (and less mysterious) a universe. Its good entertainment, but I'm still not convinced that ENT will not end up being a divergent timeline from First Contact. It'd be a big pain (for you) to have to go back and change things accordingly, if that were to ebcome (anymore) apparent.
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: And somebody to do the artwork.
You had some pretty neat captions provided too. I had assumed you had the artwork already picked out! Those captions have some pretty juicy details.
Will Masao's crew of artists be an option?
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I concur. Timo the work is fantastic! There are just a few grammatical errors and sentence construction errors, but these are easily fixed.
I thought that the content was originally OCR scans of existing FASA and fan fiction material. I am proved wrong.
I also don't see what is so wrong with the idea of an Alternate History of the United Federation of Planets Starfleet. A lot of time and effort has gone into creating the FASA and other fan fiction starships and most of them are pretty cool. A lot better than the stuff we are getting in Enterprise.
Plus, didn't Brannon Braga say that the timeline was changed due to the events of Star Trek: First Contact? What if your history is for the "correct" timeline? Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Don't make me hurt you.
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Don't make me hurt you.
I know I must be missing the context of that statement! Care to enlighten the uninitiated?
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I presume that PsyLiam is responding to my comment about the timeline being altered by the events of Star Trek: First Contact when the Enterprise assists Dr. Cochrane with the Phoenix.
I understand that Brannon Braga uses this as an excuse when he is challenged with the continuity problems of Enterprise and why it doesn't seem to match the rest of the Star Trek creation, especially the original series.
Am I correct in my interpretation PsyLiam? Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Slightly. And mainly because the Trek timeline has been messed up so many times that there really isn't a "real timeline".
I mean, in the real timeline Earth was destroyed by the whaleprobe thing.
And then in the next real timeline, the Enterprise was destroyed in a time vortex while Picard was in a shuttlecraft.
And in the next real timeline, the Enterprise hadn't heard from the Romulans 60 years, but then suddenly they knew about the Romulan attack on the Enterprise-C and the Klingon outpost.
And then in the next real timeline, the Enterprise was destroyed when it collided with the Bozeman.
And so forth.
Essentially, the "real" timeline is whichever one the most recent episode is in. Braga said that to simply shut up the whinning fanboys.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Yeah time travel stinks with the paradox problems you need to grapple with. For the most part, I don't think that the script writers and producers have done a very good job addressing these problems. For example, why don't the Borg continue to travel back in time until they are victorious in Star Trek: First Contact?
But I don't think we would be whining if Rick Berman and Brannon Braga actually had storytelling talent. I don't think most of us would care as much about the continuity and timeline if they were producing really entertaining and compelling stories for Enterprise. But because most of the stories are so lame and boring, the continuity problems become very obvious and the show's flaws are much more visible.
But I am going off topic. BUMP.
Timo needs to get a couple of editors and some artists so that he can finish his work. Its a very good contribution to fan fiction.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Being interested in a nice piece of mass . . . data, I'd be very much inclined to read this thing you guys are talking about.
. . . if only I knew where it was available.
???
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
For the interested, the text is at http://lobotomy.pleh.net/~flareupload/uploads/245/shiptext.zip - a couple of Word files. I did some of those entries way back, when I yet couldn't do English perfect grammar. And I've forgotten more about what I've written than you could believe. But let's try answer a few of the readers' questions:
Mark: I usually open up an article with Starfleet needing a ship class, and until paragraph three I must withhold the class name since Starfleet hasn't decided on it yet. When I do get down to the name, it gets so personal that I go name-happy and avoid the "the class" and "the design" and "the proposed frigate" things of the early paragraphs at any cost. It does get ugly at times, now that you point it out.
Revanche: I generally agonize between volumetrics, canon mentions and noncanon source data, but basically I try to think of the nacelles as superheavy (to justify something like 780,000 tons instead of 180,000 for the Connie), and then derive the unknown masses from that. A PB-31 must mass something like 250,000 tons apiece to be a plausible source of the ship mass... There's a lot of work there, especially if I add mass to the stats of all ships.
Most of the SFC and FASA stuff will have to be re-massed anyway - I haven't been as systematic with them as I should have.
And most of the pics don't exist. I just dreamed up a few catchy captions, things that would be different from yer standard Trek encyclopedia but not out of place in a Bill Gunston style reference work. Thus, a few (2D or holo) photos of varying qualities, "official" and "unofficial", some schematics - one painting, even...
The work has a few "alt-timeline" things built in. Like the lack of a Four-Year War. Basically I still try to aim at what is "real" from the POV of a 2376-77 publication date. And some things I deliberately do with a "24th century bias". A praised battle from the 23rd century may be referred to as shameful slaughter - a pacifist wimp might be a visionary, a powerful warship a poorly thought out waste of resources. Some Kirk adventures are treated as "mythical" or "not made public" or even "remembered differently from how they happened". And I want to insert even more such mischief when I have the time. Please help.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Revanche: I generally agonize between volumetrics, canon mentions and noncanon source data, but basically I try to think of the nacelles as superheavy (to justify something like 780,000 tons instead of 180,000 for the Connie), and then derive the unknown masses from that. A PB-31 must mass something like 250,000 tons apiece to be a plausible source of the ship mass... There's a lot of work there, especially if I add mass to the stats of all ships.
I wrote to Rick Sternbach back in '98 with a question regarding the mass of DS9, in regards to the known mass of the ENT-D. He addressed it the same way as you did: the coils (and hence the nacelles) are mass-generous.
quote: Thus, a few (2D or holo) photos of varying qualities, "official" and "unofficial", some schematics - one painting, even...
Hey, good luck getting those holo-artists lined up.
quote:The work has a few "alt-timeline" things built in. Like the lack of a Four-Year War.
Yeah...I never felt like the Four Year War was fully addressed in anything I saw from FASA. But you do have a slot for it in the 'Way of the Warrior' section (which I am now up to). It's abruptly cut-off and then the para starts off in mid-sentance. Is that a mistake or a place-holder (as you develop the war). (Again, apologies, as I haven't read further yet.)
quote: Basically I still try to aim at what is "real" from the POV of a 2376-77 publication date. And some things I deliberately do with a "24th century bias". A praised battle from the 23rd century may be referred to as shameful slaughter - a pacifist wimp might be a visionary, a powerful warship a poorly thought out waste of resources. Some Kirk adventures are treated as "mythical" or "not made public" or even "remembered differently from how they happened".
I had seen a few things already that made me think you were re-writing (future) history, especially in areas I felt were certain canon. But, now with that POV in mind, I'll re-consider things when I go back over for a proofread.
quote: And I want to insert even more such mischief when I have the time. Please help.
Gladly.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yup, the "Way of the Warrior" chapter originally supported a SFC-style story of an encounter between Klingon and human ships and a group of refugees, escalating the Klingon/UFP hostilities. Now ENT has done that one... I intend to revamp everything to support a 2151 first contact yet a 2200s-2210s breakdown in relations, but it would be impossible to accommodate all ENT facts without discarding just about everything from chapters "Romulan War" and "Federation". Even the existence of the phase cannon wreaks havoc on those chapters.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Revanche: Timo,
I have been holed up for the last three-four weeks engrossed in this work. You have done (are doing?) a fantastic job. We're experiencing 90+ degree weather here in Tokyo and I'm simply sitting by the pool working on the master timeline!
I still haven't gotten into part 2 yet, but I wanted you to know that this detail is incredible. I feel that the Decipher starship thread mentions just didn't do it enough justice. I recognize a lot of other previous histories thrown in (including FASA's) and I'm hoping to incorporate it (somehow) into Masao's timeline.
Is there a chance you'll be able to notify us when you add/flesh out new classes?
Is this a web page or something?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Read the entire topic. There's a link to the zipped Word-files somewhere.
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Yup, the "Way of the Warrior" chapter originally supported a SFC-style story of an encounter between Klingon and human ships and a group of refugees, escalating the Klingon/UFP hostilities. Now ENT has done that one... I intend to revamp everything to support a 2151 first contact yet a 2200s-2210s breakdown in relations, but it would be impossible to accommodate all ENT facts without discarding just about everything from chapters "Romulan War" and "Federation". Even the existence of the phase cannon wreaks havoc on those chapters.
Timo Saloniemi
While ENT has done this, I urge you to go with your ENT-free script. After ENT has completed its series run, then you can decide if you want to make that series canon to your history.
You've done a great job so far, and I'm anxious to read about the hostilities that take place as you see them.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Just added the file shiptext2.zip, which is an update containing some mass figures and corrected attributions. Unfortunately, Flareupload won't accept overwrites, so this could get real ugly pretty soon - I don't want to send shiptext47.zip just to add a single new ship entry to shiptext46.zip...
What's the simplest way to get older versions deleted? Does only Charles have the rights?
I'm doing the masses by claiming that pre-24th century ship masses were traditionally given without including warp coil mass. It's pretty easy to do this to SotSF or FASA ships, since their given (hull) masses usually roughly correspond to the volumetrics - but it may look a bit odd that a Derf, which is basically a two-nacelled Larson, actually masses twice as much as the single-nacelled version! SFC ships require more work, as I cannot accept that a Baton Rouge hull would have half the mass of the smaller Constitution hull - so generally, I often add the first digit the original author "forgot to type", turning 90,000 tons to 190,000.
Still, there are some ships for which I don't have even the noncanon hull masses. Does anybody know how much a Detroyat weighs? Or a Caracal? Or a Durance? If not, I'd love to get volumetric estimates assuming the density you get for a nacelle-less Constitution that masses 171,000 tons. (Perhaps this density should decrease by 10% for every passing century, due to materials tech advances?)
Also, anybody have any data on the Almeida cruiser/transport? The original blueprints, copies of them, notes of them? What the heck did this ship look like?
Finally, I'm all for guest entries - if there's a ship you wish to add, especially in the TNG genre, I'll shamelessly plug it in and include a really really tiny note of the source in the entry.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Oh, good!! You can have my Polaris/Constant class (Constitution varient from the DS9TM)article, once I've finished updating and expanding it. Which may take some time...
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Does anybody know how much a Detroyat weighs? Or a Caracal? Or a Durance?
Detroyat - 180,000mt (from what Dixon calls the "Avenger Class Evolution Sheet", single sheet, (c) 1983 Starstation Aurora, no title on sheet, mina didn't come in a packet)
Durance - 12,100mt (from "Cargo/Tug USS Durance Class", five sheets, (c)1980 Starstation Aurora.)
Do you have dimensions for the above?
Can't help with the Caracal.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
On the subject of masses I've been using the rough formula of multiplying FASA and SotSF masses by 4.5 to get 'proper' masses. This puts the SotSF Avenger and the DS9TM Miranda close together and puts the Constitution within "Scotty numbers" of the million ton(ne)s quoted in TOS.
I haven't tried applying this much outside the commoner classes.
Generally FASA masses should be taken with a pinch of salt. Mass was a primary factor in the game's ship construction system and so is a game number rather than a real world number. I assume that it's a 'tonnage equivalance figure' used in some computer simulation system. Same way that all FASA ships only have weapons with two dimensional firing arcs.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Wraith: Great! That's exactly what I'm looking for - a ship that definitely is part of the Trek universe, yet hasn't received canonical attention.
IC: Thanks for the data! Detroyat at Constitution-like 180,000 tons sounds relatively reasonable, even if there is no secondary hull; the "keel" is thick and heavy-looking enough, as are the pylons. I've used the following dimensions, assuming the saucer is a classic Constitution model (for easy conversion of USS Resolution to a Surya prototype): 213.7 m length, 151.8 m beam, 50.6 m height (counting a high-profile bridge dome like the "The Cage" Constitution bridge - I think the ship as usually portrayed is just missing her bridge module).
The PB-25 nacelles in my little universe are "spool-coil" units, lighter than the later "solid-state" ones (Jerry Oltion has something like that in his Captain's Table book, too). I chose to have them at 100,000 tons apiece as opposed to the 250,000 ton PB-31. Hence, the Detroyat is now at 380,000 tons total mass... With more modern engines, she'd be about twice as heavy, much like a Miranda.
Durance I sized using window rows, arriving at something like 73 m length, 38 m beam, 25,2 m height. The mass appears a little low for such a bulky-looking ship. I haven't decided on nacelle mass yet.
Using a cleaned-up Caracal side profile and assuming nacelles roughly of Constitution size, I took the ship to be 140.2 by 70.1 by 39.9 m. I also "rounded all the edges" so that the forward profile is ovoid, not rectangular... Spool-coil engines give roughly 250,000 ton total mass, as I try to keep the ship no heavier than the 50,000 ton hull mass (sans nacelles) of the Mann class. The masses of ships increase relatively steadily in this scenario, and the Detroyat is exceptionally heavy for a destroyer of its time, as the source text suggests.
I'm currently so enamored with the nacelles-dictate-mass idea that I find the 4.5 times multiplication impractical. It would mean exceptionally dense materials in hull construction, for one thing. And when I run into discrepancies in total mass, it's much easier to say "these nacelles have more coils inside than the others" than "this hull is much denser than the others"...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Detroyat is 258.7 x 180 x 54.9m and most certainly does not have a standard connie saucer.
Durance is 98.72 x 57.46 x 27.91
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Wraith: Great! That's exactly what I'm looking for - a ship that definitely is part of the Trek universe, yet hasn't received canonical attention. Timo Saloniemi
Would that include some of the less than brilliant members of the Frankenstein fleet? If it's conjectural designs for cannon ships you want, then I'm sure the ASDB's fleet can be put at your disposal.
Posted by Sargon (Member # 1090) on :
Great work, I'm still reading it, but so far I think it ranks with the best.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Thanks for the ego-boosting again. I'll alter the Durance dimensions accordingly, but I still wonder about the Detroyat. I cannot take the drawing as completely accurate no matter what, given the sketchy nacelles and all. And the ship is contemporary to all those perfectly Constitution-like Ptolemies, Saladins, whatever, plus is supposed to have directly spawned the Surya. Since the only thing that even theoretically could be carried over in such a refit is the saucer, I'll probably still continue to see Constitution-like curves to it...
Reverend, I'll try to include all of the Frankenstein stuff. Even the little tug, since it looks a lot like one Sternbach SFC design... The Curry and the Raging Queen are already there, under Mediterranean class. The Centaur is a Renaissance. The Elkins is still seeking a class name, but as you see, I try to use these and other almost-on-screen ships instead of conjectural designs for the "unseen" classes if I possibly can. If I run out of existing designs, then I'll be happy to steal from the ASDB - but not a single piece of onscreen plastic before.
I'll also try and erase those ship classes that I created out of thin air to fill gaps in Fleet strength (Boxer, Trent, Antilles) if I can get ships from other sources to fill those slots - but again, I'll take study models, RPG ships and the like before purely conjectural designs.
I've finished cleaning up the early SFC-based classes, correcting some clear errors (like fusion-powered Companion class). I'm still sort of looking for a nice name for the post-WWIII Earth supergovernment - I think the New United Nations should disappear in the war, even though I used that name originally. And I'll try to work the ENT history (or pre-ENT history as given in ENT) into it all, even if I end up not using NX-01 and her adventures.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
Detroyat is pictured in great detail on the Avenger development chart.. the nacelles are bulkier old versions of the regular nacelles, but they share a common diameter.. the caps are simply bulkier, making them longer
and the saucer isnt a connie standard, but is more similar to the dimensions of the movie saucer (flatter, wider).. this is why the SotSF Detroyat that was refit to an Avenger caused a design variation, its one that is wider and rounder at the back section, they said a few others follow that modification, the Wright-Corder modification
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Timo: glad it can be of use; I will probably have a new version up on Flare within a couple of weeks and a version for you shortly after (I've got quite a bit of the historical titbits in ship lists at the moment- I will integrate these in to the main text) for the HHG and also try and ensure that it fits in with the dhips you've already done.).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hookay... I'll change the Detroyat dimensions.
But the Wright-Corder version wasn't explained as a result of USS Resolution re-refit - it was just something done differently to a couple of standard Suryas for the sheer sake of being different (ITRW, it was an excuse for Guenther to include some early fan blueprints that didn't look completely correct...).
The Resolution supposedly ended up looking more or less like a standard Surya, according to SotSF anyway. But if the saucer wasn't of Connie standard, then I'll probably go and say that she became an ugly almost-Surya instead. This isn't exactly disproved in SotSF, although not supported, either.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Got Charles to remove the old shiptext.zip, so that I could upload a newer version under the same name. Improvements over the previous versions:
-Mass figures for almost all Part I ships, from the DY ships up to the Cheyenne class (although most are still subject to deep self-doubt)
-Revised early SFC ships, especially Liberty and Verne classes, now closer to the original material (but not quite ENT-compatible)
-Some revised small craft, especially Falcon interceptors (but Part II is still in shambles, generally speaking)
-Some stupid typos hunted down
-Glossary slightly revised and expanded
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: But the Wright-Corder version wasn't explained as a result of USS Resolution re-refit - it was just something done differently to a couple of standard Suryas for the sheer sake of being different (ITRW, it was an excuse for Guenther to include some early fan blueprints that didn't look completely correct...).
SofSF co-author Aridas posted this at Trek BBS and explained that the W-C variant was based on a Reliant study model. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Wow! I wonder if that study model ever saw action...?
I'm glad SotSF did not postulate a subclass based on the larger "study model" (VFX stand-in?) in that picture, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Apparently, the big one is the work in progress on the actual reliant.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
*Bumpity-bump*
New stuff for the Guide, still at the old address. Early Spaceflight Chronology ships streamlined a lot, some changes in the small craft sections, and mass figures added to most designs, save for TNG era ships.
More importantly, the first guest entries are there. Wraith has done the Polaris heavy destroyer and accompanying Constant scout, based on the "A Time to Stand"/DS9 TM Constitution variant - and an exciting take on the Kirsanov large perimeter action ship that gets but a mention in "Ships of the Star Fleet". I'd love to see an artist's impression on the latter!
Is the text of the original "SotSF II" available online somewhere? I'm itching to finally enter Guenther's perimeter ships, yet there's no domestic outlet that would give me access to the book itself.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Updated again, with new ships by Wraith and stuff. The newer version is shiptext2.zip, at least until the older shiptext.zip is removed.
Perhaps I should redo the 22nd century after all? There aren't that many established designs there, save for a couple of SFC ones that are too ugly to be used as is. I could go all NX-01 saucer-style, leaving the sphere-hulled ships be a distinct minority of wussy science vessels...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
How about using some of the SFM designs, if Masao gives permission?
Overwise, yeah the saucers for warships, spheres for science vessels sounds like a good idea. The balencing of internal space vs subspace field efficeincy and all that.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm not sure about SFM. It's such a well thought out whole in itself - and somewhat at odds with the idea of trying to fit in the SFC and FASA histories. I guess I have a priority list of canon > background production material > printed fanwork and RPGs > self-made patches > online fanwork...
And I hate to take some, lose some, even though I already do it with FASA. I try to endorse SFC and SotSF as completely as possible, and I'd love to do that with SFM if it wasn't so darn much better than / different from the other material.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yeah, suppose so, especially the quality. A lot of the FASA designs especially are ugly!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Another update with more Wraith Stuff in there. This thing is gradually coming shipshape... TNG-era ships still need quite a bit of work. And perhaps I'll still do a revamp to accommodate ENT somehow.
Timo Saloniemi
[ September 26, 2003, 04:13 AM: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
If Timo wants to try to shoehorn the SFM ships into some other continuity, he has my blessings and my sympathy! Actually, James Dixon put some of them in his chronology, which really surprised me.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
'Wraith Stuff' (TM) Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: And perhaps I'll still do a revamp to accommodate ENT somehow.
Noooo!! I cannae imagine how'd ya pull that' one off!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Pretty simple, really. I just
1) give all the unseen (Placido and the like) or unrepresentable (Castor, Horizon) conjectural classes saucerlike hulls, 2) demote the Daedalus and Mann to semi-civilian science vessels of inferior warp-dynamic shape, 3) mix the "particle cannon" and "phase cannon" nomenclature into an unholy fudge, so that they essentially describe the same FTL visible-in-vacuum beam weapon, 4) briefly introduce laser weaponry for the era between ENT and TOS, as a secondary armament superior to plasma guns but inferior to refined phasers (ships that have lasers will also have phase guns as their primary armament), and also remove all references to lasers from pre-ENT ships and go for plasma guns instead, 5) ignore the idea that transporters were introduced in the 2230s, and just consider that a "major upgrade" of Earth-indigenous systems from Mk I to Mk II, 6) do something similar to antimatter power production (or then the NX class will be an abandoned experiment, much like SS Savannah and SS Otto Hahn were for commercial fission propulsion, and the 2230s will mark the rebirth of the concept), 7) move the Tyme Barrier from warp four to warp five or six, and adjust performance specs of pre-TOS ships accordingly, 8) and curl up into a ball in the corner and sob uncontrollably for 4.7 hours.
That should more or less do it.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Okay...you've got some well-reasoned points there...and I can't argue with them...but you can't make me like it!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It seems fair enough.. I guess that steps "backward" until the older technology becomes more refined, or experimental "improvements" on lasers or fusion warheads can't be impossible. I'm sure that we can probably find parallels in modern history with circuits or high explosives or something..
Butter's better for you! No, it's margarine now! Nuh-uh, new stuff shows it's butter! Hardly - margarine's better as of this morning!
Mark
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Incidentally, looking at Masao's Furious and Spectre classes, they should fit in without too many problems in their existing form.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Butter's better for you! No, it's margarine now! Nuh-uh, new stuff shows it's butter! Hardly - margarine's better as of this morning!
Unfortunately probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you gave me two pieces of toast one with butter and the other with margarine. Oh well.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
...Which would make you the perfect Trek watcher, in the eyes of at least a few executive-type people.
Mark
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Oh no... that doesn't equate... the line between toleration and wretching is quite thin, and it has been passed many times by those execs in the last few years.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Before I revamp everything to placate ENT, pilfer ships from Masao, and start preferring butter to margarine, I'll try and fill the TNG era gaps. There are plenty of one-off mentions that need a) a spaceframe to go with them and b) an explanation as to why Starfleet would only use them so rarely in the vicinity of our heroes.
I've pimped certain one-offs into twosomes - Rigel and Zodiac are a destroyer/scoutship pair now, and so are Freedom and Andromeda. I don't want to get rid of all the unknowns that way, though. There's the Sequoia, and Wraith just made her a good freighter based on Eaves' early holoship sketches. There's the Bradbury, and I made her the Voyager study model and a corvette, as the registry range was a nice match. And then there's the Surak, that simply became the ENT Surak rather than the Sternback Vulcan sketch.
But what to do with Chimera? A 57000 range registry, but I'll NOT make her another 1:2 scale Galaxy kitbash! One reference only, in "The Die is Cast". A support ship? A light border patrol ship? A rare dreadnought? A floating casino?
Any ideas for alternate Merced, Goddard, Zodiac, Andromeda or Rigel descriptions are also very welcome. Preferably with excuses for their rare appearances. The ASDB stuff is good, but I primarily seek pairings of names with existing models, study models or Paramount artist sketches. Even convoluted pairings. And that's not what ASDB is about.
Oh, and the ugly Elkins has an identity crisis, too. Unfortunately with a registry too high to conveniently fit any of the above classes.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
The Chimera's mine!!
Just had an idea for a crash produced escort vessel at the beginning of the Cardassian war; using some of the ideas you mentioned in PMs, Timo. After the war some kept on as border patrol vessels, after upgrades/mods.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
A bump mainly for the benefit of Revanche, who's doing a great job reviewing the grammar and typography. New version with Wraith Stuff additions and a few other changes now here...
BTW, reviewing isn't purely an exact science. While Dan is busy turning the pidgin into English, others are quite welcome to suggest changes in content, other interpretations of source material, and general things like "stop whining for attention".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
*snif* Puir, puir Shelley...
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Oh, damn. I can't stand the cybersound of a guy in tears... There, there. Hey, I'll change the "Caspian subclass" to "Shelley subclass", okay? I'll even call the three-nacelled Hokule'a the "Medusa subclass". Feel any better?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I didn't name the Medusa (but along with Mojo, I did coin Baracas). Regardless, thanks! The legacy lives on.
Mark
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Is Baracas named after Mr. T's character on the A-Team?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And is she the USS Yeager Voy-bash, or the USS Elkins one?
The Elkins is still waiting for a class designation. Or perhaps "class" and "Elkins" shouldn't be used together in a sentence. Anyway, I used "Philadelphia class" in one entry for this experimental design that should have remained invisible, but I'll happily go with Baracas if it was meant for this design. Have to invent a reason for the LN-64 lookalikes bolted onto her, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Whoops, so Baracus wasn't an Intrepid variant after all. What did we call the Elkins (apart from the unprintable things)?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
"Baracus" was coined when Mojo and I first got the pics for the model of the USS Centaur that we'd convert for UF (the model ultimately showed up in the ST Mag). When we saw how ugly the model was, and specifically all the gold-painted greeblies, Mr. T immediately came to mind. Hence, Baracus-class.
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Yeah. I'm pondering naming the sigint variant of Renaissance the Baracus subclass, although it's a very different vehicle from the Mark/Mojo large cruiser...
Did you two ever find out who did what in the Great Kitbashing Frenzy?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Alas no - Mojo just got requested materials from Paramount, which was basically pictures.
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Once more unto the bump...
The first "completed" version of the Guide is now here, with most of the typos hunted down, italics added for shipnames, (nearly) all the mass figures finally in place, tables-of-content updated, etc.
Things still lacking:
-Adjusting the pre-TOS era to fit ENT. -Finding some facts about the Almeida cruiser/transport, one of the very few "fanon" ships from the late 22nd century. -Ships to fill the 2360-70 timeframe. Do we really only have four (Bradbury, Intrepid, probably Sovereign and Sequoia)? Going by chronological registries, even the DS9 kitbashes don't fit this timeframe. -Art.
Timo Saloniemi
[ October 30, 2003, 03:43 AM: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Howabout some placeholder art? Even stuff borrowed from shipschematics.net - it'd help with us critics to have a better guide to whatever ships you're talking about.
As for ships in the 2360-70 timeframe, I'm comfy with there being a relatively small number of new classes in that time.. After all, it was a pretty peaceful time with few major conflicts...
Still, if you're looking for more fanon designs for that period, I'm sure people like Bernd, Red, Jason and/or the ASDB gang can come up with something.
Mark
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I have an exceptionally bad 'concept sketch' of the Kirsanov... Here
Thus providing definitive proof that I cannot draw. It isn't helped by my scanner...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Looks perfectly good to me. This is after the ship encountered six pissed-off K'teremny cruisers, escaped through a black hole, and was sat on by Dionysos, Apollo's slightly obese divine friend?
I haven't added placeholder pics for the simple reason that the compressed file then wouldn't fit on a single diskette... I'll have to start thinking of graphics now.
For those who wonder what the "Deneb class" ships of Diane Duane fame would look like, I just happened to download this for an unrelated reason. An old doodle I updated - but I haven't updated the relevant Guide entry to be a perfect match yet. The dimensions are a bit wonky, but this is essentially 530 meters long.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
which Deneb class is that?.. i remember the Inaieu and sister ships from Romulan Way and My Enemy, My Ally .. but they were clearly referred to asDefender-class starships, of Denebian construction
and trying to imagine the design in the arena of TV and Movie era ships gave me a headache. Duane specified a half mile or mile wide saucer didnt she?
[ October 30, 2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Capped in Mic ]
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Looks perfectly good to me. This is after the ship encountered six pissed-off K'teremny cruisers, escaped through a black hole, and was sat on by Dionysos, Apollo's slightly obese divine friend?
Actually, I think it was seven K'teremny cruisers... Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
For the Deneb class mess, read the Guide.
Essentially, Duane herself was of two minds about those ships. In "My Enemy, My Ally", the Inaieu was a Denebian Defender-class destroyer, one out of two. In "The Wounded Sky", a starship Inaieu was described as a "multihulled battleship", one out of presumably dozens, all from Starfleet proper.
Clearly, I wanted to do away with the silly concept of the ships being "destroyers" (since that specifier already had a different 23rd century meaning). "Battleship" sounded much more logical, but I decided to play a little trick and call these ships "defenders" instead. That way, they still are "defender class", without capital D...
...And then I had second thoughts and added the option of them literally being "Defender class defenders", save for the two Denebian-builds which are called "Deneb class defenders". It's *almost* as complicated as real world naval naming practices.
In any case, this is what Duane has to say about the ships:
-Built for Denebian physique (at least the Deneb and Inaieu are) -Saucer thrice as large as that of the Enterprise (here I took that to mean volume, not diameter) -Four nacelles, twice as long as the Enterprise ones, in cruciform arrangement -Secondary hull a mile long and 1/4 mi in diameter (absurd, completely absurd, as that would far out-beam the primary hull, which isn't aesthetically acceptable) -Multi-hulled deep space patrol vessels
I took most of that and dropped the mile-based measurements. Perhaps Kirk wasn't all that good with Imperial units, but kept using them because he thought Metric would be unpatriotic?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
A MILE long? Thats 1609 bloody meters. What kind of drugs was she on?
And on that scale, even those otherwise HUGE nacelles are tiny.
It could also mean that these ships do not resemble Starfleet ships, but are in fact native Denebian designs, using competely different parts. We know that alien ship scales can be considerably different (D'deridex, Fesarius).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Some streamlining done to fit the pre-TOS ships into the ENT continuity. Old ships now have plasma cannon instead of lasers unless the latter are explicitly mentioned in source material. There's a placeholder entry for Iceland class, plus some thoughts about Intrepid type and Enterprise class. Some dates have been adjusted, and there are random other new entries here and there for the reader to hunt down.
I think I'll finally start doing graphics for this. Five-way drawings at first, to be made more presentable by interested artists once I get the preliminary stuff done. Then perhaps the pictures...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
Sorry for the MONSTER bump, but I was wondering if this Guide was still available for download somewhere. The FlareUpload link is long dead, but I'd still love to get a look at this.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It's still available at Timo's Upload account, it's just that the URL has since changed. You can find it in two parts here and here.
Or at least I'm assuming that's what that is.
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks so much.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Good stuff but for some reason the images don't show up on the document.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Because none were ever included.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That explains whay his porn site flopped so badly.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hardly. My snuff stuff is still very popular among the Lynx users. It's all in Finnish, though, so I'm limited to about 3 million hits, tops. And that includes the underage market.
Which is why I'm planning on doing some ASCII art to broaden the clientele.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A Snuff joke!?
We've corrupted you: throughly. Though a small critique: it would have been funnier if you had been snuffing those underage teens, but still, Bravo.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
C'mon, we ALL know Timo's been pimping out SOMEWHERE. He writes and types far better than most Americans, for cryin' out loud...
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...Although with a snotty British accent.
Which, for some reason, goes over very well with my cute yet unintellectual 20-something cyberslaves (most of whom are American). Go figure.
What?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
3-2.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
1?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Everyone knows what happened next.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, the Hero cuts the right wire with his eyes closed, and the digital timer stopped on "001".
That's why you should always go with an old fashioned alarm clock instead, or at least use a mercury switch. As the guys at Radio Shack to help you build it- they're all about that stuff.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or just read the appropriate entries in the Evil Overlord Guide. Digital timers should always be rigged to detonate at the 0:13 mark. And every wire used in the construction should be red. (And, if possible, connected to a high voltage source rather than to the actual bomb mechanism.)
Alternately, the imaginatively sadistic and technologically advanced Evil Overlord might set up a voice recognition trigger cued to variations of "Whew, that was close".
...Until Paramount comes up with something new and shiny, or Shane completes his "Mr Scott's" update, I guess the only use for this forum is to provide flood relief to Officers' Lounge. Perhaps we should update the Evil Overlord list with the most recent Trek lessons learned in that field? (BSG works as well.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Yeah, yeah... I think hourglasses are underappreciated.
But I referred of course to the prophecy of the One, who was destined to bring balance to the Force.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Don't remind me. I was on a booze boat from Tallinn to Helsinki during that game, returning from singing in an Estonian catholic mass. Plenty of singing during the voyage, too. Until that third goal... After the initial dust had settled, it was the quietest three hours I've ever experienced aboard a booze run.
Okay, so the clerks at the tax-free were Swedish, and made cheerful noises until the impending multiple homicides forced the premature closing of the shop.
It was a beautiful ride, though. Calm as in "Titanic". Ice floes all the way to the horizon. Add the sinking feeling... Our quartet considered singing "Nearer, my God, to Thee", if only to outshout the "Den Glider In" of the clerks.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wee Bairns (Member # 1324) on :
I never should have bumped this thread. We've been...exposed...
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: C'mon, we ALL know Timo's been pimping out SOMEWHERE. He writes and types far better than most Americans, for cryin' out loud...
Mark
Don't let him fool you - he is HUGE in Iceland simply huge. Groupies all over the place, kinda scary really.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The most pukeworthy form of flattery nowadays is finding your name on one of those whachamacallem flypaper keyword lists, right between "teens awaiting" and "totally free"... I've so far seen two cases. (Yes, I'm vain enough to google my name once or twice a year, in case people snicker a lot behind my back and I can't figure out why. Although actually I use Altavista.)
If this isn't enough to make your head swell, I can't imagine what would be. No Jay jokes intended or solicited.
As for the groupies issue, watch our Eurovision song contest contribution this year. I'll be the two-headed cockroach at the bass.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
When I google my name, I get football players, hockey players, a few convicts and my own models.
Also some woman's blog talking about how I'm such a dick for sleeping around....it's not even me! I should get to bang/dump her just for defamation of character...a man should only be slandered for things he actually did.
Crappy common name- I'm changing it to Hans.
Hans Olo.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Timo chives:
quote:watch our Eurovision song contest contribution this year. I'll be the two-headed cockroach at the bass.
I thought you was this guy;
Aah, it practically writes itself.
On the same note, here is one of the swedish contestants in 1998. Check out the nose on the backup singer. Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Thread necrophilia here, but my admiration is still strong for this work. On a whim, I d/l'd from Sol System's post on page 5 and saw that the file had been updated in November of 2006.
I've already printed out the whole work previously posted back in March into 4 tape-bound books (written by "Prof. Timo Saloniemi, Star Fleet Academy"). Where the captions for the pictures are, I created standardized boxes, though there is, of course, no picture in them. With a few hours of layout work and then the process of binding (about US$3.00 each), all 4 volume looks excellent. They take up a prominent position on my 'personal canon' Star Trek shelf.
I'm going to printout the changes and do a page-by-page comparison, but I suspect I'll be reprinting my work, to bring it up to date. Just wanted to say how great it is, wish it could see a real printer and hope to see more great works from you.
Request: when you do update the stuff, can you continue to indicate so in this thread, and list what was changed?
-There's the Cahuya class from Star Station Aurora ship-recognition poster.
-The Horizon class is revamped, now encompassing the Spaceflight Chronology battle cruiser Advance plus a few other odds and ends in the 1000 and 1300 registry ranges.
-The Apache (NCC-3190) also from that old Aurora poster becomes the design for some of those "missing cruisers" that the Ships of the Star Fleet tables list in huge numbers. Alliterative subclasses include Albion (a way to bunch up a number of British starship names in the novels) and Ashanti.
-I sorted out the Oberths and Garneaus in terms of subclasses and registries (that was fun!), but little of it probably shows in the text.
-The Constellation entry tries to accommodate Diane Duane's twists from The Bloodwing Voyages.
-The "Galaxy class" cruisers from ST2/3 novelizations become the Draco class.
Also, random stuff in the second and third parts, mainly ENT-inspired older small craft.
Part 1a (to the end of TOS) still contains some double-??s but Part 1b is mostly done till I get some radically new inspiration. And Part 3 remains only halfway done, although I like to think about new angles on the shuttlecraft.
Thanks for the interest!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Hey, thanks both for the updates and the synopsis. Heavy reading for me over the next few weeks!
Posted by thesonofodin (Member # 1025) on :
hey timo, ne new updates???
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Aargh... I knew I'd forgotten something. Okay, updates coming by the end of the week.
Any suggestions where I should put them? The individual files are well over the 1 MB limit of FlareUpLoad, and I'm disinterested in chopping them down further. So... Any favorite services?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Ventriloquists Got Shot (Member # 239) on :
You could use an upload service like RapidShare or MediaFire or something like that.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...RapidShare it is. An unfortunate development, though: I've finally managed to lose a memory stick for good. Too bad it contained updates on the Guide that aren't backed up anywhere... A learning experience, I guess.
It will probably take me the whole week to recover from the loss of work-related files - I'm inches away from suicide right now, seriously. But next week I'll put together the Guide updates again. I hope.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Keep your chin up, we'll wait.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I've been there with my image files. Hence I now have triple backups. It also helps to have a laptop and an external drive.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
RapidShare is awful. Stick with Mediafire.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Mediafire is awful. Stick with Megaupload.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Megaupload is awful, stick with Fruity Oaty Bars.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
There's also filefront, but they do have tendency to delete files if there's no one downloading it.
(BTW Fuity Oaty Bars suck, I prefer Power Thirst)
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
Power Thirst? Is that some American oaty bar thing?
It's all about Nutragrain bars. Whatever happened to them Nutragrain Twists, as they were gorgeous! Posted by thesonofodin (Member # 1025) on :
any updates timo??
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Too busy right now, I'm sorry to say - but I hope I get it done this weekend. I'm redoing work I lost when my memory stick went missing, and that's depressing as hell.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And to proofread... I've found plenty of clear errors in the attributions, and several cases where I changed a SFC or FASA design when I didn't have to. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You had some pretty neat captions provided too. I had assumed you had the artwork already picked out! Those captions have some pretty juicy details.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)