How to put this... I want to hear what you guys consider good examples of crew interaction during combat. I'm not asking for best battles or most ingenious maneuvers or things like that - that'd be too easy. What I'm looking for is how the crew interacts during combat: relaying orders, responding to commands, efficiency under fire. What battles or episodes stand out to you as prime examples of how a crew SHOULD function in combat?
I hope I'm making sense here. What I'm investigating is how we as tech geeks appreciate the chatter that occurs as a starship goes through millions of dollars of special effects. The 'splosions are mere dressing these days, but it's how a crew works under fire that makes a battle memorable. What are the best examples of a crew working like this?
And conversely - badly?
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Example of a bad battle: any time the CO takes so much time issuing orders that the ship gets hit five or six times before taking action.
Good battle: off hand, any time a crew-member takes an abandoned station after the death/injury of the original crewmen. Example: "WotW" when Worf takes over Tactical after the officer manning it is killed/injured. This shows situational awareness of the bridge crew, both in what is happening in the battle itself, as well as what is happening on the bridge.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
My favorite is in DS9's "Tears of the Prophets" (at least I think it was that one) where the crew are prepping all systems and chatting about the upcoming battle. Then Sisko arrives, and bam! everyone snaps to and the order to get underway is given in seconds.
--Jonah
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
TNG had some good crew interaction as well. Especially with Data at Ops, relaying technobabble.
Bad example: "Balance of Terror". Kirk gives Helm order to fire, Helm gives guy in Phaser Control Room order to fire. And he only needs to push a button. Surely, either Helm could have had that button, or Kirk could have given his order straight to the PCR.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
For the Uniform. The Defiant's shot to hell and all its systems are fried, so Nog gets promoted to living C&C router for his, uh, special services. Very submarinish.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Re: "Balance of Terror": Perhaps there was a good reason for three men-in-the-loop there? I mean, the phasers fritzed out after just a few shots. Perhaps multiple specialists have to give green lights before one of those suckers can be fired safely? Especially on that weird proximity blast mode.
Generally, "BoT" had Kirk macromanaging the battle, which is a Good Thing. Few course commands, except for relevant "Let's turn back, NOW" ones. The single instance in Trek where micromanaging of weapons ("Phasers at proximity blast") was sensible and necessary. Sulu and Stiles were given a lot of freedom to perform the necessary maneuvers.
And everybody relevant was kept up to date on developments - sometimes Trek makes me wonder whether most of the people aboard a ship have the faintest idea of where they are and what they are supposed to be doing. (Then again, McCoy was always going "Huh?" when coming to the bridge, whereas Crusher always was on top of things even when she didn't as much as peek out of her office. Presumably the E-D had some sort of an automated PA system to relay relevant bridge dialogue to the right people.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I thought BoBW had some good bridge interaction, both in part one during Picard's initial engagement and in part two during Riker's elaborate assault on the cube.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
the one thing that disappointed me, stylistically, about BoBW is, even though we were being treated to a pretty gnarly two-part battle ep there was very little tension in the bridge scenes.. the ships about to be lost, there was no damage to the bridge (and although engineering was critical and evacuated, it was well lit with no visible damage or strife).. Trek has learned since then that if you want to portray the fact thatthe warp core is critical and the ship is taking heavy fire,maybe the lights should flicker or some smoke and sparks should fly around. oh well.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Nobody liked the Nemisis battle? I thought it was one of the best. The bridge set was mounted on shocks and the actors where really thrown around. A hole got blown in the bridge. the coordinated with other ships, used tactics to find the cloaked ship, ran out of quantum torpedoes, and had smoke...
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
the ripped open bridge seemed kind of hokey to me.. i know that there are forcefields and stuff, but it still looked kind of ridiculous (on the other hand, the Data space jump was beautiful)
with the exception of the ripped open wall, the battle was awesome..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I liked the Nemesis battle but to that "snap to attention" when a situation arises kinda thing, THe Search was great: Even Basheir jumps on tactical. Lets see sorry Dr. Crusher do that!
I'd point out "Way of the Warrior" as a great example of the toughest situation handles in the most professional way.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
Nemesis returned to something that hadnt been done for a long time, the background radio chatter on the bridge.. TOS didnt do that much after the first half of year one.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Even Basheir jumps on tactical. Lets see sorry Dr. Crusher do that!
I think that's one of the reasons I like Bashir so much - he's a doctor, but he's not willing to take the "I won't cause harm to a living thing" to the extreme that other medical officers will. I mean, damn, the dude is running around commanding security teams in the drill in WoTW!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I thought the radio chatter of the battle with the Borg in "First Contact" over the Enterprise PA was pretty well orchistrated with all the funny camera angles on the Enterprise crew reaction to the rest of the fleet getting plastered while they sat there on the RNZ.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Gravity is down to point 8. Again.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: Trek has learned since then that if you want to portray the fact thatthe warp core is critical and the ship is taking heavy fire,maybe the lights should flicker or some smoke and sparks should fly around. oh well.
Indeed. Although it probably doesn't make a huge amount of sense, (oh no, the lights are darker. This makes me see my displays much better during the battle!), it does add atmosphere. And, using said example, notice how much the atmosphere goes up when they get onto the extremely-cool-looking-for-the-only-time-in-the-life-of-the-show Battle Bridge, with it's dim lights and 3d displays and cool chair.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
the radio chatter from FC was well done, but didnt do a lot for me.. Nemesis's (and 'Balance of Terror's) radio chatter from the phaser room and gravity control really add to the atmosphere..
as for bridge lighting, i have never supported dark bridges (TWOK bothered me a lot in that respect).. the DS9/VGR era turns off the lights whenever an alert is called, and is quite annoying, IMO.. however, it really gets the point across if the ship is severely damaged when the power fails and the bridge goes dark.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Pity that gravity also dropped down to point eight in "The Corbomite Manouver", and pretty much every other episode where they ever got hit.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Lets see sorry Dr. Crusher do that!
To her credit, Dr. Crusher did kill a few people in face-to-face encounters, as well as command the Enterprise in battle once.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Of which we did NOT need a reminder.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I thought the radio chatter of the battle with the Borg in "First Contact" over the Enterprise PA was pretty well orchistrated with all the funny camera angles on the Enterprise crew reaction to the rest of the fleet getting plastered while they sat there on the RNZ.
ooooh yes! the camera angles - the were a very nice touch. that WAS a good movie.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Its funny that in all the battles we never saw the gravity fail on the ships (minus the time in TUC). That certainly would have given a whole new feel to the show, considering they are in space, afterall, and not an Earth-bound vessel.
In "Nemesis", the Enterprise gets its ass plastered, and loses just about every system yet gravity stays online. Amazing they couldnt reinforce all the other systems the way they do the gravity generator...the ship can shake and shutter and frizzle every-which-way but in a space battles, with shields failing and warp core breaches you'd think gravity would fail on you once or twice.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Diane Carey put it well in one of her books (I forget which): gravity is the most important form of life support in Trek. You can live without oxygen for a couple of minutes, or without heat and pressure for something like 30 seconds to a minute. Without gravity control, the first jolt the ship makes (be it a weapons hit or an impulse acceleration) will create the infamous "chunky salsa effect". Or at least fling heavy and/or squishy objects this way and that.
That is assuming that IDFs are tied to the general artificial gravity network. And that could very well be a safe assumption. In all likelihood, the loss of artificial gravity is followed 0.47 seconds later by a gigantic fireball VFX. Unless the ship is at standstill to begin with, like Kronos One supposedly was. (If the ship was under acceleration, there's no way the Enterprise or the BoP pretending to be the Enterprise could have launched torpedoes from that angle!)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Concerning artificial gravity...
I'm too lazy to go up and check my TNG:TM at the moment, but isn't the gravity system actually integrated into thousands (millions?) of tiny generators in the floor? That would make it a very distributed system that wouldn't go offline very easily at all.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Without gravity control, the first jolt the ship makes (be it a weapons hit or an impulse acceleration) will create the infamous "chunky salsa effect".
Seatbelts. So simple, so elegant...
(Of course, artifical gravity never fails, as per Dramatic Convention 47, but still)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Seatbelts are good up to 50 gee or so. Heck, *seats* are good up to 50 gee. In terms of keeping the acceleration-killed lifeless carcass from flapping around too much, usually.
But a Galaxy is supposed to accelerate at a thousand gee when ordered to "full impulse", according to TNG TM anyway. The last thing going through the mind of the Ensign who presses "IDF Off" while at impulse deceleration will be the warp core.
Dunno. All those ah so fatal "coolant leaks" and "hull breaches" sound like minor problems in comparison with the things that can happen to a starship in a fraction of a second when a key system hiccups. But it is only natural that we don't hear of those hiccups over the PA system. Instead, we hear the big "boom" sound that shouldn't be there in the vacuum of space.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Rick's explanation for the artificial gravity is that the superconducting rotors in the generators are spinning in vacuum, so that even when power is cut they take a long-ass time to spin down, and the whole time they're spinning, they're generating gravity.
We can assume that for the first season, before she put in for refitting the Enterprise had faulty generators on whichever deck it was hat was always falling to .8... Maybe they had cracked casings and spun down more quickly.
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It wasn't just the first season. Gravity dropped to .8 for pretty much the entire run. Which explains why Kirk got so fat.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
hmmmm I feel the battle chatter in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was pretty good. Picard felt like a real military officer, barking out crucial maneuvers...I don't think anyone later on ordered course corrections as well as how those lines were delivered. There was real sense of urgency and graveness that was conveyed.
Speaking of conveying, the battle on the Odyssey bridge during her last hours was also done well. The all over shaking, the smoke, the fire...it projected that panic, shock and terror feeling nicely.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheF0rce: hmmmm I feel the battle chatter in "Yesterday's Enterprise" was pretty good. Picard felt like a real military officer, barking out crucial maneuvers...I don't think anyone later on ordered course corrections as well as how those lines were delivered. There was real sense of urgency and graveness that was conveyed.
Of course, they still stood there and let the BOPs hit them several billion times while they only fired back once.
Apart from that one shot, where the ship is manourvering while phasers fire all over the place. But they only do that once. And, obviously, they forget the 10 other phaser strips the ship has.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think it's safe to assume that they were firing during the times they were offscreen - when we saw the E-C inching towards the rift, or when Geordi was bawling about his wee bairns.
On the whole though, I think that Picard was playing a diversionary battle from the get-go, trying to maneuver so he can get into the most effective firing position - or at least to make it appear as though he were. As I recall, the shots we saw in order were:
1) A quint burst of torpedoes, all hitting one BoP;
2) A pair of phaser blasts on one BoP that was going towards the E-C - not likely the same one hit before;
3) The "continual fire" thing, hitting two targets, destroying one;
4) A single phaser blast towards the end, as the bridge was burning up.
These could hardly be the ONLY shots fired; Picard did lots of maneuvering in the meantime, probably lining up for better torpedo shots. It's also possible that he fought such that the Klingons wouldn't realize that he WAS fighting to divert them... Had the Klingons realized that the E-C wasn't firing or was trying to save itself for some reason, they could have gone exclusively after her, at which point the E-C wouldn't have had a chance.
So Picard may have deliberately fought conservatively to avoid this, baring his ship's teeth once to make sure they were doing what he wanted them to do. After all, he KNEW that success meant that none of this would have mattered, and that any casualties on his part would not make a difference in the grand scheme. It may not have succeeded the way that he wanted, but the job got done...
The chatter in this episode ranks among the better examples IMO, with people being relatively constant in what they were reporting - Wesley was on tactical, reporting on where the ships were and piloting the E-D, Riker kept on top of ship damage control and reporting in addition to fire control, and Data was reporting damage on the enemy ships and filling in on tactical and damage reports. Picard did the proper commanding stuff too, giving orders to those critica; positions, and letting Geordi do his work downstairs. Commendable, I say.
Mark
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Yeah. That battle was a major disappointment. Why couldn't the Enterprise-D have fired from both dorsal and ventral strips at the same time? And then when they brought up minimal aspect, added the belly and pylon strips aw well? Plus at least one full salvo of ten torpedoes?
But no, we had to see them getting their asses kicked. I just wish they'd been able to present it more believably. We knew they had to protect the -C so they couldn't maneuver much, but there were so many other things they could have done in order to come across as a bit more effective... *sigh*
Love that shot of the Galaxy broadsiding that hapless Galor in "Sacrifice of Angels" *swoon*.
--Jonah
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Of course, SoA had an SFX budget roughly seven billion times larger than that of YE, and the benefit of eight years of CGI evolution.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
BOBW used ALL of the galaxy's weapons fire in one shot when Picard orders "Fire all weapons" so it's not just the SFX budget that matters.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Season Finale Budget > Non-Season Finale Budget.
+$300,000,000 to Denise Crosby.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Come on: how much more could it cost to add in three more phaser beams to the one needed for the script anyway?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
There is a thirty second scene in Out of Sight where Soderbergh needed to correct the snowfall in a window, and it cost one hundred thousand dollars.
Special effects are more expensive, than say, you imagine.
Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
It probably would've cost less if they just had a crewmember announced the firing of X number of phaser shots and their damage inflicted and wouldn't even have to have any special fx. But, they wasted the time mostly on Picard giving multiple course heading corrections (at that point he should've just started to manually steer the ship himself.)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I remember them saying once at a con that if it cost TNG $3000 to animate a torpedo shot, it'd cost them $5000 for a phaser blast purely because there's more phaser on screen than torp. This is why, for example, that torps got used more often on the whole. This has been negated in modern times as they pay per VFX SHOT these days, with design work for new stuff on top of it. Hence, one reason why we see lots more of 'em.
Given the amount of Klingon fire in "Yesterday's Enterprise", that's a lot of money. Them's some expensive green in them disruptor bolts.
Mark
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also, the BOBW had a static ship, whereas the shot under discussion in YE had the ship moving vertically.
Also, they don't fire all the weapons in that one shot in BOBW. Not only do they miss out several phaser strips, but they actually draw phaser fire where strips don't exist.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
And why haven't we seen a full spread of torpedoes since "The Arsenal of Freedom"?
--Jonah
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:they actually draw phaser fire where strips don't exist
Like where? I don't recall any phaser beams coming from non-existing strips.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In exactly one shot, we see phaser beams erupting from the fore end of where the nacelles meet the pylons, and not from the phylon strips. Oddly, when the same model shot was used in the following episode for a "fire all weapons" shot, they were NOT firing. Looks like someone figured it out - but why then didn't they use any of the other strips?
Mark
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
One shot I would like to have seen is the Enterprise being pursued and firing all aft phasers (what, nine strips?) to discourage the pursuers.
--Jonah
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I was mistaken about the DS9 episode with the good chatter -- it was 7th season's "The Changing Face of Evil".