Well, seeing as how the episode's completely over and no one's posted a topic, I'll take the job.
One thing I was impressed with -- for only the second time in Trek that I can recall, there were alien soldiers who had ARMOR THAT WORKED. And the Borg only had their energy shields, that had to adapt only after a few drones had been taken out.
Was it just me, or did that "vortex" at the end remind anyone else of the transwarp conduits that we saw in "Descent"? 'Twould be interesting if that were the case...
So the Xindi-Reptiles are building a bio-weapon as a backup to their Death Star. Gotta hand it to them... paranoia aside, that was actually a smart move. Unfortunately, the kEWl special effects were so detailed that I figured out right away that the title character was basically supposed to be a walking tricorder for the Xindi. A shame, really... because it was actually a pretty good episode! (Gotta love those ham-fisted UPN promos! )
I am wondering something, though... when are they going to stop having firefights next to the warp core???
All in all, this episode wasn't that bad... but, considering the UPN promo, our expectations were so low anyway...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Where I am, it's still two hours until it *starts*, bub.
Still, since I can no longer chime in first with the tech review, I'm not so bugged anymore that other people start the threads.
One thing I'm hoping here though is that they don't resort to having hte ship being boarded as a plot device. It gets boring fast - try the first season of "Andromeda", for example. The ship was boarded, and its defences useless, practically every other episode!
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, yeah. But on "Andromeda," they were supposed to be the most powerful warship within 3 million light-years.
On "Enterprise," they're technologically primitive compared to at least some of the races out there. Yeah, it can get old if it keeps up, but if there's a valid reason for it -- and assuming the Xindi don't have transporter tech, since they didn't beam Raijin off in the first place -- then I don't see a major problem with it.
I just hope that the MACO's can get a bit more competent in the long run. Only in this episode, it was technology, not knowing the territory, that won the day.
I just wonder, though... do the Xindi weapons have a "stun" setting? I really hope NOT... considering the brutal efficiency of the raid, I see no reason why they'd pull their punches at all. Plus, that's going to mean a rather large body count for this episode -- I'd guess at least two or three who got hit directly with beam weapons, plus the other two who got hit with that intriguing "exploding-chemical-blob-thing" weapon, who may have just been incapacitated with that weapon.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just having seen "Regeneration" and no Season 3 - can I ask about these MACOS? Are they 2d characters or are they developing - i.e. being that far out into space has got to be pretty wonderous for them.
And when was their planet supposed to be destroyed - after the 24th century?
Maybe Janeway's future borg tech allowed this to happen?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I wondered about that as well....I saw five or six crewmen go down (including the MACO chick). The guy in engineering was nailed clearly in the shoulder: not to hard to fix. Jimini Cricket fired off something HUGE and glowing that I really doubt was non-lethal. A tip for the MACOS: aim for the reptiles' heads! Duh. THey really are good shots though: I don't think any MACO missed a shot: the weapons just were'nt effective.
Hoshi had an extremely hot moment wirth the blonde tricorder. Smo-kin!
Watch Reed jump back from that first corner during the firefight! He's leading the defense of the ship and doing a good job of it too (weell, "good" is subjective, but he's really in charge!) GO REED!
Continuity between episodes! Archer's still recovering from last week's transformation! Trip's concerned for T'Pol's good name!
Porthos makes a cameo!
All told, this episode started off slow and kinda formulatic but quickly got into action-territory and was both well written and well acted.
Note: the Xindi councilman at that's pissed about the reptilian's insobordination is the actor that played the captain of Saratoga from Space: Above and Beyond. So far that's a captain from SAAB, Commander from Nemesis and Lutenant from Crusade. Enterprise is becoming a halfway house for sci-fi supporting arctors! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Enterprise is becoming a halfway house for sci-fi supporting arctors!
Trek's been like that for ages. Ever hear of the Cynic's "Welfare Recipient of the Week" award?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Unfortunately, the kEWl special effects were so detailed that I figured out right away that the title character was basically supposed to be a walking tricorder for the Xindi."
Can you explain this? UPN is on a rather low-budget station here, so the reception is horrible. The visual effects tend to get lost in the fuzz...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Okay, my turn:
-"Raijin" is the Japanese name for the shinto god of lightning. This really has no bearing on the episode, which was spelled "Raijiin", another accepted English spelling of the word.
-The Xindi council makes another appearance, and I'm under the impression that the moderate aquatic Xindi are the leading faction, at least at the table. They probably don't go into space themselves, given the awkwardness of space travel in liquid compared to the air-breathers. They make mention of the Trellium outpost that Enterprise "attacked" in the season opener. An insectoid also notes that Enterprise is "travelling through our space!". If they lay claim to the entire Expanse, they're not doing a very good job of keeping it...
-The gang is looking for Trellium D, which will come into play in an episode or two. They apparently picked up a lead on where to find some when they passed by a deuterium station. This possibly some minor continuity, given their isolation (it's been more than four months since they left Earth) and the ransacking they took from those pirates.
-Cutie Cutler is still aboard! Phlox mentions that she nearly broke her arm.
-I like that they're still recovering from the bio-whatsit from last week, partially justifying the cliche. If they can find a cure so fast, they at least make the recovery lengthy!
-We are presented with yet another beautiful CGI world, this time a nearly all-ocean world. The alien bazaar we visit is a floating collection of barges... Pretty cool.
-Did that first alien on the barge speak in a Rastafarian accent? If so, I think it's a Trek first.
-Trellium A is common and easy to process - not so for T-D. I find this strange given the obvious need for the stuff.
-Archer states that they're on a diplomatic mission. I think this is the first time they've done so... Is he still thinking of peace first? Is the use of violence less of a last resort now?
-Hey, are those the same field jackets we've seen before? They're the same basic design, but I think they're of a different material - not as silvery as the other ones, and darker. Are there pics of the first field jackets online?
-My. God. Hot.
-They get their Trellium D, but cooking it up is a bitch - it seems to be a liquid at first, which is then coated on the inside of the outer hull where it will set and harden. One wrong move, and boom! Setting up an isolated lab, they set to work. The makeshift lab is pretty wierd, being a nondescript and very small room. Did they set up shop in a closet? Why are Trip and T'pol in the closet?
-Raijiin comes from a planet only two days from the bazaar, according to the database they got from the pirates.
-While T'pol's being mentally raped in CSI-vision, Trip (standing outside) calls up tto the bridge for a location check. This is a refreshing change from the "Computer, locate so-and-so" we're used to in the TNG era.
-Okay, let's talk about the raid. For the trouble they were expecting, I'm surprised that there were only three MACOs at the door.
-We see the MACOs stun sticks and stun grenades again - and note that the Starfleet crew were still using thier old rifles. The Xindi have a number of interesting weapons, including their rifle, a gloop gun, and that porcupine blobby thing. Should be interesting in future episodes how they figure to defend against them, since they were pretty effective.
-But were they lethal? Unknown - but the sickbay was conspicuously empty just after the attack. If not, they may have taken some heavy casualties there!
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Gawnghghgh!
I just plain can't wait to see these episodes.
I infer from the references to armor and head shots that this "effective" armor did not include helmets? As far as effective armor goes, the Hunters from "Captive Pursuit" and the other Hunters of Hirogen descent seemed to have functioning physical body protection, too.
How did the Xindi enter and exit? Boarding craft, holes cut in walls? EVA assault? Could they be deterred at the moment of boarding, rather than fought inside the ship, or kept at an arm's length by ship-to-ship weapons?
Is this Trellium-D going to block all the anomalies now?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
-No helmets.
-The Xindi (mostly reptilians with at least one insectoid in the mix) came in thorugh the starboard airlock, after blowing the inner door away. They probably did the same thing with the outer door.
-Near as I can see, the T-D isn't done yet. A future episode seems to hint that they run out of the stuff they have and have to look for more, suggesting in turn that they're far from getting it right.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"Blow the airlock" is a bit of an understatement. Blow the airlock, door and possibly part of the all across the room is closer to he explosion. Reed and co. get their first look at a Xindi cricket tonight...I'm sure at least one of the crew's gonna have nightmares! Jimini is smart enough to hightail it when a stun grenade is tossed at him.
Reptilian Xindi is good when boarding a alien ship: they don't talk among themselves much and are kinda like the MACOS in thir professionalism. Reed manages to kick one of their asses though (with the help of a good ol' fashioned rifle beating).
Xindi eptilians had a toxin gland added to them as a suicide device so reed's captive is only good on the slab..... BUT WAIT! Archer orders the Xindi armor and weapons taken apart by reed to se if they can defend against them! Smart. I'm sure Phlox'll be scraping that bulkhead for the spore weapon the Xindi used as well.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
A little bit of tech from me:
Enterprise transporter seems to have the range of 10.000 km, according to the Raijin.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Adjusted for Expanse effects, though, right?
I'd just love it if ENT was the first Trek show to go the Stargate route and actually start relying on alien technology. Sure, it's not the strategically smartest thing to do since the supplier isn't very reliable. But if alien armor one-ups yours, then mere Starfleet dress code should not stop the heroes from donning it.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
They've used their captured cell-ship - hey, I wonder if they still have it? Or if they finally left it back on Earth for the local brains to have a crack at it?
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Rajiin asks for the Xindi-Reptillian ship to be within 10.000 kilometers, so she can beam over. No word on adverse effects from the Expanse. Then again, they seemed to be in a rather quiet area, where the laws of physics worked normally. Except for the unusual amounts of libido.
The Xindi obviously don't seem to have (or at least use) transporters.
Micheal Westmore must have had a great time with all those different aliens on the barge. They were the prototypical 'Westmore aliens', made up of existing appliances combined in weird ways. I think the first alien they spoke to might have worn Reman ears.
Rajiin's planet is called something like "Ol-raan-ta-koo". What did the CC make of it?
I would almost dare say the Xindi have the same transwarp technology as Lore's Borg. The VFX were as good as identical, and Mayweather could only describe what he saw as "some sort of vortex", so it's not something he recognized.
The Xindi ships looked like a mix between Nausicaan and Son'a.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: I would almost dare say the Xindi have the same transwarp technology as Lore's Borg. The VFX were as good as identical, and Mayweather could only describe what he saw as "some sort of vortex", so it's not something he recognized.
The Xindi ships looked like a mix between Nausicaan and Son'a.
I noticed a bit of So'na look to the Xindi ships as well: I wonder if each species of Xindi has their own ships or are the ships made to accomidate all species?
The Xindi "fade away" is the smae effect as the enterance into an Anomaly so mabye that's what the sphere's are intended to do: transport starships long distances (like a spaceborne version of an Iconian gateway) and the sphere's are wearing down over the aeons causing the spacial anomalies.
That's my theory anyway. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Now there's an idea - the sphere tie into the transportation system. I mean, they can' be there JUST to cause the anomalies... And come to think of it, don't they somewhat resemble the probe that attacked Earth somewhat?
Something more about the potential casualties in this episode: it'd be very interesting if they lost a lot of the crew, and actually pulling an "Equinox" as a result. How many people can they lose before it affects ship performance? Even on Voyager, they said they could make it with fewer than 100 people aboard...
Mark
Posted by BJ_O (Member # 858) on :
Is it just me, or do the reptilian Xindi remind anyone else of the head bad guy from "Galaxy Quest"?
B.J.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Unfortunately, the kEWl special effects were so detailed that I figured out right away that the title character was basically supposed to be a walking tricorder for the Xindi."
Can you explain this? UPN is on a rather low-budget station here, so the reception is horrible. The visual effects tend to get lost in the fuzz...
When Raijin was running her hands across Archer, T'Pol, and whoever else she was hamming it up with (you probably heard the sound effects), we could see UNDER the victim's skin, to their internal organs -- vertebrae, brain, lungs, et cetera. With that kind of gruesome detail -- not pleasure-inducing, at least for this viewer -- it did not seem like Raijin was their for what the UPN promos suggested she was.
As for those Xindi ships -- for the first brief shot of them, I was actually thinking of those tiny three-pronged Minbari fighters from B5. But once I got a better look at them, the Xindi ships are obviously much flatter. Still, it's pretty cool that they are widest at the front section, and then taper down towards the rear.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Now there's an idea - the sphere tie into the transportation system. I mean, they can' be there JUST to cause the anomalies... And come to think of it, don't they somewhat resemble the probe that attacked Earth somewhat?
Hey yeah... that Xindi mini-Death Star did seem to come completely out of nowhere in the finale last season. At the time, I'd simply assumed that it was a cloaking device of some kind... but Mayweather simply called it a "vortex." I assume he's intelligent enough, after all the ship's experience with the Suliban, to recognize the difference between a mysterious cloaking device and a mysterious FTL transportation system.
quote:Originally posted by BJ_O: Is it just me, or do the reptilian Xindi remind anyone else of the head bad guy from "Galaxy Quest"?
LMAO!
Anyone want to place bets as to whether the Xindi will code-name their planet-destroying weapon the "Omega-13"? Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I still find it mildly interesting that both the Kzinti and the Xindi use(d) spherical ships...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The Xindi council makes another appearance, and I'm under the impression that the moderate aquatic Xindi are the leading faction, at least at the table. They probably don't go into space themselves, given the awkwardness of space travel in liquid compared to the air-breathers."
Is it really that much harder to move a bubble of water through space than a bubble of air?
"Archer states that they're on a diplomatic mission. I think this is the first time they've done so... Is he still thinking of peace first? Is the use of violence less of a last resort now?"
One wouldn't think so, from the way he acts. He seems very reluctant to mention the real reason e wants to find the Xindi. "Diplomatic mission" was probably just a nice way of phrasing it.
"The makeshift lab is pretty wierd, being a nondescript and very small room. Did they set up shop in a closet? Why are Trip and T'pol in the closet?"
Well, they weren't in a real lab. Thye said they had to set one up "on E-deck, behind the emergency bulkheads" or something like that. Maybe that was the only room available that had enough electrical outlets for their machinery.
"The Xindi (mostly reptilians with at least one insectoid in the mix) came in thorugh the starboard airlock, after blowing the inner door away. They probably did the same thing with the outer door."
I'm guessing it was just the inner door. If they blew out both doors, it would have caused a hull breach when their ship pulled away.
"When Raijin was running her hands across Archer, T'Pol, and whoever else she was hamming it up with (you probably heard the sound effects), we could see UNDER the victim's skin, to their internal organs -- vertebrae, brain, lungs, et cetera."
Ah. Yeah, I couldn't see that detail through the static. I thought it was just flashy lights moving around on their skin. Though I did notice that it looked like T'Pol's spine was exposed for some strange reason.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
>Is it really that much harder to move a bubble >of water through space than a bubble of air?
In the early days of space travel, you betcha - even today, the thing NASA tends to worry about a LOT is the water they take up with them. It's bloody heavy, not static, and if it leaks it can muck stuff up a zillion times more than air. If the Xindi weren't given their spaceflight technology, there's no way the aquatics would have developed space travel - not with four species of air-breathers to do it for you.
Now, obviously the aquatics CAN travel through space, as they had to get off their homeworld somehow. But as to their usefulness in space, I highly doubt they'd be regular crew on any Xindi ships.
>Well, they weren't in a real lab. Thye said they >had to set one up "on E-deck, behind the >emergency bulkheads" or something like that. >Maybe that was the only room available that had >enough electrical outlets for their machinery.
One wonders then why a normal lab wouldn't be proofed against stuff blowing up. Well, at least they aren't doing it in Engineering as they so often do in Trek...
>I'm guessing it was just the inner door. If they >blew out both doors, it would have caused a hull >breach when their ship pulled away.
True, and as they leave the ship, they do in fact close the intact outer door. But then if they could get through the outer door so easily, why not do the same with the inner? Did they want to surprise/attack/disable some of the defenders that way? OTOH, they obviously didn't need it on the way out, and they didn't have a problem with leaving the ship intact overall.
Mark
[ October 02, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Is it really that much harder to move a bubble of water through space than a bubble of air?
Might not be relevant in the ST era, but you would expect that water would help cushion g-force effects , plus there's the added bonus that living things used to an aquatic environment would probably find it easier to adapt to weightlessness eliminating the need for artificial gravity.
Interesting things might happen during a cabin leak/hull breach though.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: >I'm guessing it was just the inner door. If they >blew out both doors, it would have caused a hull >breach when their ship pulled away.
True, and as they leave the ship, they do in fact close the intact outer door. But then if they could get through the outer door so easily, why not do the same with the inner? Did they want to surprise/attack/disable some of the defenders that way? OTOH, they obviously didn't need it on the way out, and they didn't have a problem with leaving the ship intact overall.
It's possible that the outer door has no locking mechanism? It occurs to me that in most circumstances, use of an airlock is cooperative. Also, perhaps whoever designed the airlocks was actually *thinking* (as opposed to Archer, who usually doesn't), and considered the possibility of hostile boarding through the airlocks. It would be better to let attackers in through the first door, thus negating the need to blow up said first door. That way, there wouldn't be that gaping hole in the hull after the attackers broke the atmosphere seal when their ship left.
quote:Now, obviously the aquatics CAN travel through space, as they had to get off their homeworld somehow. But as to their usefulness in space, I highly doubt they'd be regular crew on any Xindi ships.
Any aquatic being would be nearly useless in their native environment aboard a starship. Not only would their environment have to be completely waterproofed -- including any buttons or other equipment that would be adapted to their use inside the tanks -- but they would also be completely unable to effect any mechanical repairs, because there's no way for them to get access!
Therefore, they'd have to be nothing more than specialized passengers, or else scientists (at the most) relying on normal humanoids for the heavy lifting.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Like the dolphins, yes.
>Any aquatic being would be nearly useless in >their native environment aboard a starship. Not >only would their environment have to be >completely waterproofed -- including any buttons >or other equipment that would be adapted to >their use inside the tanks -- but they would >also be completely unable to effect any >mechanical repairs, because there's no way for >them to get access!
It's not THAT tough... I mean, air is just another kind of fluid, just less dense and in a different phase. If you filled up a "normal" ship with water and replaced the crew with gill-boys, it'd not be too different overall. I'd mostly be concerned with the hideous mass that the water would represent. In terms of sheer physics, I'd not like to have a crew that requires all THAT be lugged around.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Aquitic Xindi could certainly have their own ships adapted to an all awuatic environment. Effecting repairs would just require using an EVA suit for the crew and the ship itself would probably need more bulkheads in case of hull breach (can't lose all that water!). Think of it this way: nobody would try to forcibly board your ship!
I just want the aquatic Xindi to yell.... "IT'S A TRAP!"
Just once....for nostalgia's sake.
Hey! Someone over at SM just brought up a really good point: "That rash that Archer had in the beginning means that the data they got on him wasn�t quite right so either the weapon will have a flaw or they will use the virus from last week to fight it." Smart thinking.
[ October 02, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Naww... Archer looked pretty much all better by the time they rescued the babe from the babe barge.
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
At least they kinda remembered that Vulcan physiology might be a bit different from human. T'Pol's back seemed to have more muscles and a different spine. But the same skull-structure.
Mind you, I have no problems at all with T'Pol's physiology. None whatsoever Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ah that Hoshi, she sure is a cunning linguist isn't she?
Possibly the only time that joke actually fits the situation, so enjoy it. Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: It's not THAT tough... I mean, air is just another kind of fluid, just less dense and in a different phase. If you filled up a "normal" ship with water and replaced the crew with gill-boys, it'd not be too different overall. I'd mostly be concerned with the hideous mass that the water would represent. In terms of sheer physics, I'd not like to have a crew that requires all THAT be lugged around.
Mark
Not to mention they'd be in trouble if they had any electrical problems...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
They probably wouldn't even *have* the field of engineering known as electronics.
Whether that would put them behind humans, or perhaps ahead, is debatable.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Masswise, the water breathers could have large-ish clear EVA suits instead of filling the whole ship with water. It'd probably make for double or thripe the mass of just air breathers being there instead though.
Here's a question: do the inscectoid Xindi have wings? Stingers prahaps? Do their antenna serve as a extra sense?
Another odd Xindi thing is that they probably can't breed between species (dispite genetic simmulatities). Otherwise there's be only one species and it's have genes from all of them. Like how humans might have bred with neandertals in some limited way and retained some of their DNA. Omega as example. Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
quote:Here's a question: do the inscectoid Xindi have wings? Stingers prahaps? Do their antenna serve as a extra sense?
I've heard the same asked of Andorians.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
quote:Hey! Someone over at SM just brought up a really good point: "That rash that Archer had in the beginning means that the data they got on him wasn�t quite right so either the weapon will have a flaw or they will use the virus from last week to fight it."
Maybe the Xindi will start their genocidal attack, only to discover that they cure earth of all known rashes...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Rewatching the episode tonight, I noticed something else - the Jeffries tube entrance! It's as Raijiin is trying to escape. Reed opens a regular door, behind which is a tiny room and the tube entrance - a ladder on an angle that leads upwards, though it's not built into the wall. The tube actually entends from the wall like a storm drain and the ladder protrudes from it, kinda like the one Jake has to scramble up in "Civil Defense".
Have we seen it before? It seems odd to build a full set for ten seconds on screen... And it's quite a bit more than the hole-in-the-wall approach of TOS and the simple hatches of most subsequent series.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Here's a question: do the inscectoid Xindi have wings? Stingers prahaps? Do their antenna serve as a extra sense?"
"I've heard the same asked of Andorians."
Of course, the Andorians seem to have to organs of all our normal senses (eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and they can presumably feel things). We can't really postulate an "extra" sense for the Xindibugs when we don't know if they even have all the "regular" ones.
Posted by Davok (Member # 143) on :
quote:Rewatching the episode tonight, I noticed something else - the Jeffries tube entrance! It's as Raijiin is trying to escape. Reed opens a regular door, behind which is a tiny room and the tube entrance - a ladder on an angle that leads upwards, though it's not built into the wall. The tube actually entends from the wall like a storm drain and the ladder protrudes from it, kinda like the one Jake has to scramble up in "Civil Defense".
Have we seen it before?
First seen in "The Catwalk", this was supposed to be the Jeffries tube leading to the warp nacelles (which is probably why the ladder isn't exactly vertical).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Here's a question: do the inscectoid Xindi have wings? Stingers prahaps? Do their antenna serve as a extra sense?"
"I've heard the same asked of Andorians."
Of course, the Andorians seem to have to organs of all our normal senses (eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and they can presumably feel things). We can't really postulate an "extra" sense for the Xindibugs when we don't know if they even have all the "regular" ones.
Well, the inscectoid might not have taste or smell I suppose but all the others are aparant from it's talking, responding to questions and biiiiig eyes (though segmented).
holy fuck. I just saw a commercial for Martix: Revolutions. Must lie down now.
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