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Star Trek fact files - Japan Edition (Part 3 - The Ti'Mur)
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masaki</b> <br /><small>Member # 1030</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,22,19,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 22, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:28 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> SUUROK class the Ti'Mur appeared in the Fact Files Japan edition Issue 47.<br /><br /><img src="http://starshipclass.com/temp/issue47.png"><br /><br /><a href="http://starshipclass.com/temp/The_TiMur.jpg" target="_blank">Beauty shot</a><br /><a href="http://starshipclass.com/temp/timur.jpg" target="_blank">Five views</a><br /><br /><br />According to description of the Fact Files... (The following texts are translated into English from Japanese.)<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br />In addition, the SURAK class exists in the Vulcan ships.<br /><br />Unlike a science investigation ship like the Ti'Mur, the SURAK class ship containing the Sh'Ran is classified into combat cruiser.<br /><br />The SURAK classes have very heavy armaments as a classification name shows.<br /><br /></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Surak class combat cruiser is the Sh'Ran, and the Suurok class science ship is the Ti'Mur? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,22,19,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 22, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:43 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Awesome! I've been waiting for a good shot at that ship. (Aside from that silly "Surak/Suurok" gaffe, of course.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> <br /><br />Masaki, does the article say anything about how big it's supposed to be? Any other stats of potential usefulness? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masaki</b> <br /><small>Member # 1030</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,22,21,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 22, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:06 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:<br /><strong> Does the article say anything about how big it's supposed to be? Any other stats of potential usefulness? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Although there is no detailed spec. in the card of the Ti'Mur, there is the following description.<br /><br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><br /><b>The Ti'Mur</b><br /><br />Science investigation ship Ti'Mur is graceful and a line which flows shows the predominance of a spaceship design of Vulcans. There was a starfleet of the earth in the 2150s, without the ability catching up with the performance of this Vulcan ship yet.<br /><br />...<br />Even if it came to have employed a fleet in collaboration with the earth, Vulcans were keeping hiding many information about their ship. Therefore, the exact number of the decks and the exact number of crew members of the Ti'Mur, and the internal structure are unknown, and the earth side had to be guessed from the size of a hull, or the number of windows. ...<br /><br />...<br />Lines on which Ti'Mur flows has interrupted with the plate and parts which projected from the main hull in many places. It is surmised that the docking port etc. is installed in such a place. The huge warp drive unit of a cylinder form is covered with the small plate describing a countless curve, and two hulls are connected by the pylon of the triangle extended from the main hull lower part. Many windows may be concentrating on the front of a pylon, and most of crew cabins and control systems may exist in this pylon portion. The tip part of the warp drive unit of a cylinder form emits light blue during a cruise. Moreover, two sets of impulse engine can be seen in the main hull back.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Kazeite</b> <br /><small>Member # 970</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,1,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:42 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Masaki:<br /><strong> Therefore, the exact number of the decks and the exact number of crew members of the Ti'Mur, and the internal structure are unknown, and the earth side had to be guessed from the size of a hull, or the number of windows. ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Weird... somehow, this seems... eerily familiar.<br /><br />Hmmm... I wonder why? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Reverend</b> <br /><small>Member # 335</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,3,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:02 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Hmm...am I the only one seeing a <a href="http://img9.photobucket.com/albums/v24/Reverend/TVran.jpg" target="_blank">resemblance</a>? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,4,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:49 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So does this article claim the Ti'Mur and the Sh'Ran are of the same class or not? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Spike</b> <br /><small>Member # 322</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,5,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:15 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It says that the Ti'Mur is a Suurok-class science ship and the Sh'Ran a Surak-class combat cruiser. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,5,22,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:22 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Okay. A bit silly, but a lot better than squishing them into one class. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>WizArtist</b> <br /><small>Member # 1095</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,11,11,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:11 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Does anyone think that the Vulcan that designed this ship was going through Pon Farr at the time?<br /><br /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Mighty Monkey of Mim</b> <br /><small>Member # 646</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,23,17,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 23, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:17 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Hmm...the model as presented there seems to be true to neither version of the ship as seen on screen. Originally, as the <i>Ti'Mur</i>, it had <a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/suurokrear.jpg" target="_blank">different impulse engines</a>. Then it was <a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig06.jpg" target="_blank">modified</a> to appear as the <i>Sh'Raan</i>, with the impulse engines displayed in the FF scans. However the screencap of the <i>Sh'Raan</i> seems to show some still-other details of that section that are different, while the FF scans show them as identical to the cap of the <i>Ti'Mur</i>.<br /><br />Confusing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" /> <br /><br />-<b>MMoM</b> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Futurama Guy</b> <br /><small>Member # 968</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,27,13,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 27, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:24 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Since we are on the subject, I uploaded 5 pages from an issue of <i>ST:The Mag</i> (ca. summer '02) on the Designing of the Ti'mur. <br /><br />Bon appetite!<br /><br /><br /> </font><ul type="square"><li><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/DesigningTiMur1.JPG" target="_blank">Designing the Ti'Mur 1 </a></font></li><li><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/DesigningTiMur2.JPG" target="_blank">Designing the Ti'Mur 2 </a></font></li><li><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/DesigningTiMur3.JPG" target="_blank">Designing the Ti'Mur 3 </a></font></li><li><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/DesigningTiMur4.JPG" target="_blank">Designing the Ti'Mur 4 </a></font></li><li><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/968/DesigningTiMur5.JPG" target="_blank">Designing the Ti'Mur 5 </a></font></li></ul><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,27,14,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 27, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:07 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Another interesting thing is that since the introduction of the <i>D'Kyr</i>, we haven't seen a single Surak/Suurok ship.<br /><br />I think they were still not quite happy with the design, and kept fiddling with it.<br /><br />The 5-view indeed does not match the aft beauty shot, but it *does* seem to match with an actual aft view of the <i>Ti'Mur</i> (at least, I believe I can see a faint engineglow above the blue):<br /><a href="http://www.neutralzone.de/database/Alien/Beta/VulcanSurak-Class_TiMur03.htm" target="_blank">http://www.neutralzone.de/database/Alien/Beta/VulcanSurak-Class_TiMur03.htm</a><br /><br />Although curiously, <a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/suurokbreaking.jpg" target="_blank">this shot</a> does *not* seem ot have a glow. Sadly, it doesn't say whether it's the <i>Ti'Mur</i> or the <i>Ni'Var</i>.<br /><br />And just for the record, I really do believe the <i>Sh'Ran</i> was an entirely *different* model.<br />Some screenshots:<br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig01.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig01.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig02.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig02.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig03.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig03.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig04.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig04.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig05.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig05.jpg</a><br /><a href="http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig06.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.stguardian.to/alien/vulcan/combatcruisershraanbig06.jpg</a><br /><br />First, the color seems to be more sandbrown-ish, instead of bright red. The ring structure is clearly different from the <i>Ti'Mur</i>/<i>Ni'Var</i>, and so is the aft part. Most notably the two apparent shuttlebays instead of the blue impulse (?) engine on the other model(s).<br /><br />And contrary to claims made by EAS, the windows are not the same either. No hint of the blue (?) windows of the <i>Ti'Mur</i>. Moreover, the actual hull plating is completely different too.<br /><br />And of course, the <i>Sh'Ran</i> was a lot bigger, and actually classified as a 'combat cruiser', whereas the <i>Ti'Mur</i> was explicitly called a science vessel, IIRC. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cartman</b> <br /><small>Member # 256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,27,14,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 27, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:36 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So if the Ti'Mur from <i>Breaking the Ice</i> is a Suurok-class science ship and the Sh'Ran from <i>Fallen Hero</i> a Surak-class combat cruiser (or vice versa), then the D'Kyr from <i>Future Tense</i> is what, a Tar'Ellian-class carrier? B)<br /><br />Does the Vah'klas from <i>Fusion</i> have a class designation yet? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,27,14,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 27, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:48 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It's kinda hard to tell based on the perspectives that Harry linked to, but is the forward hull of the Sh'Ran looking a bit thicker to anyone else? It makes me kinda wonder.<br /><br />Plus, with those proto-Ni'Var images, you can clearly see in the last set that the forward hull is quite a bit longer in one image than in the other.<br /><br /><i>(Is it logical for Vulcan engineers to keep telling each other "Mine's bigger"? It seems that size <b>does</b> matter!)</i> 8) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,0,27,16,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 27, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:29 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So is there an actual physical connection between the 'grip' part of the vulcan ship and the ring part or is there no connection at all - like Doug Drexler says in his interview. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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