I had this possibly brilliant, probably not-so-brilliant idea just now. I'd be very surprised if no one's tried it before, but I've never seen it...
Why not count the number of escape pods on a ship and use that to estimate how many people would normally be on board?
I started with the TNG:TM, since the guys who helped design the Enterprise-D would know the most about how those lifepods work and how many would be needed.
According to the TM, the Galaxy class carries 400 lifepods, designed to normally carry 4 people each (max 6). So, multiply that and you get 1600 people that can fit into all the escape pods -- plenty for the normal complement of 1000. So, let's assume that Starfleet wants to overestimate and have approximately 1.6 times the space vis � vis the normal crew complement, for safety's sake.
Now, let's test this out on the other ships we've seen: (Note: Since the TNG:TM says that pods can fit up to 6 people, I'm going to assume that most smaller ships fit 6 people in every pod by default -- the numbers fit better that way, anyway.)
-- Intrepid class: I've counted 42 pods on the physical model (pics from EAS). Now, 150 crew * 1.6 is 240. Divide that by 6, and you get 40 pods.
-- Sovereign class: I counted 200 life pods. Now, if we assume a crew of 850 (semi-official stat) * 1.6 equals 1360. Divide that by 6 to get 226 pods. The Sovereign might be slightly under-equipped with pods, but it's still close enough for me.
-- Defiant class: The DS9:TM deck plans (crappy though they might be) show 16 escape pods. I seem to recall a couple more in the Deck 2 "nose" section (seen ejecting in "Valiant"), but I'll leave them out for our purposes. Take a crew of 50 * 1.6 = 80. Divide that by 6, and you get 13 pods. Plenty of room.
-- Nebula class: Assuming a standard Galaxy-class model part set, you lose 36 escape pods in adding the dorsal pod and redesigning the engineering hull. So there's a huge excess of pods on the Nebula for a crew of 750. (I won't do the math here, it's obvious.) But then, we always knew that the Nebula was a big ship for its type anyway.
-- Nova class: This is the first one that seems to run into trouble... I only counted 10 pods, all on the dorsal surface. With a normal crew of 80 (ref: "Equinox"), they'd need space for at least 128 people. Those 10 pods would only have about half that space. (Possible explanation: the pods on the underside are covered under blow-away hatches like on the Defiant. But that'd be inconsistent design.)
So, let's try some extrapolation here:
-- USS Pasteur: I count 108 pods in the engineering hull, and maybe another 100 on the sphere (it's tough to tell without a decent forward view). That gives a crew complement of about 780 crew (with 6) or 520 crew (with 4 per pod). Seeing as how that's an awful lot for a 300-meter medical ship, though, it makes sense that they'd build in a lot of extra pods for the patients.
-- New Orleans class: I counted 108 pods on the model: 50 on the underside of the saucer in Okuda's color model, 46 on the top in Bernd's schematic, and 12 on the engineering hull in Bernd's side schematic. So, take 108 times 4 (for a Galaxy-era ship), divide that by 1.6, and you get a crew complement of 270. I think that's just about perfect!
-- USS Prometheus: I counted twelve pods. Well, even if it's a warship, that's just dumb, and I don't think that a ship that big (especially one that needed crew for three separate sections) would have a crew of only 72. I guess we'll have to assume that they had a lot more pods protected under the ship's armored plating.
-- Saber class: Based on the Fact Files schematics, I counted 108 hatches, which again translates into a crew of 270. That's a lot for a ship of only some 170 meters! But... the escape pods look kinda small to me. Let's see what we get with my Federation Models model of the Saber I've got sitting on my desk: It's 14 cm long, and the escape pods are 0.3 cm long and 0.2 cm wide. If we translate that to meters, that means the escape pods are 3.6 meters long and 2.5 meters wide. Assuming they can be no more than 3 meters tall (to fit into the deck structure), that means there's slightly less internal space to fit people into. So, let's say the pods fit only 3 people normally -- that gives us a crew complement of 202 instead. A bit more tolerable, but still a heck of a lot compared to the Defiant and the Voyager.
-- Akira class: I count 72 pods on the Fact Files schematic. With six people per pod, that yields a crew of 270. Or, with no margin for error in pods, that's a crew of 432.
-- Steamrunner class: I count 88 pods on the Fact Files schematic. With six people per pod (the Sovereign-types), that yields a crew of 330. That's actually just about right.
...So... I guess this isn't quite the magical solution I was hoping for when I started this message. After all, it depends on how much thought the ship designers put into the design, and sometimes it's not all that much, is it? Oh well... at least, I think it can still be used as a guide alongside other rationalizations.
What do you guys think? Did I bore you to tears yet? Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Apart from the 'blow-away' pods, there might also be Saratoga-like shuttlebay-based lifeboats, which seemed to be capable of carrying about 20 persons.
The Nova seems to be the only real problem. The waverider might account for some of this. Or perhaps the Nova simply wasn't really meant to ever find itself in any situation where lifeboats would be useful, being a rather small science vessel.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And pull another Titanic? I think not...
They probably either had hidden escape pods elsewhere, or Sternbach meant it for a smaller crew than what they wrote. There's also the possibilty for 8-person pods, which have been discussed before. You'd have to cross-reference with the number of people who'd been seen getting into escape pods in instances like "First Contact" - and in that case, it's also pretty likely since the Borg had taken over quite a bit of the ship by then.
Mark
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Uh.. is it or is it not true that some lifepods on the E-D used the same hatch and were on a track system. I seem to remember something like that, was it from the Blueprints instead of the TNG TM? So this would throw off any calculations based on the number of lifepod hatches.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: I had this possibly brilliant, probably not-so-brilliant idea just now. I'd be very surprised if no one's tried it before, but I've never seen it...
Why not count the number of escape pods on a ship and use that to estimate how many people would normally be on board?
-- USS Prometheus: I counted twelve pods. Well, even if it's a warship, that's just dumb, and I don't think that a ship that big (especially one that needed crew for three separate sections) would have a crew of only 72. I guess we'll have to assume that they had a lot more pods protected under the ship's armored plating.
Are those pods visible when the ship sections are assembled together, or when they are separated? If it's when they are separated, well... but if it's when they are together, then there may be additional pods hidden on the "contact" surfaces. Though it wouldn't be a practical design if they have to evacuate the ship while still in a single piece...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by J:Uh.. is it or is it not true that some lifepods on the E-D used the same hatch and were on a track system. I seem to remember something like that, was it from the Blueprints instead of the TNG TM? So this would throw off any calculations based on the number of lifepod hatches.
I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty peeved if the ship blew up around me while I was waiting for the guy in the next escape pod in line to hurry up and get out of the way before I could launch...
quote:Originally posted by machf: Are those pods visible when the ship sections are assembled together, or when they are separated? If it's when they are separated, well... but if it's when they are together, then there may be additional pods hidden on the "contact" surfaces. Though it wouldn't be a practical design if they have to evacuate the ship while still in a single piece...
No, they're all visible while the ship is joined, and there are no hatches or anything similar along the surfaces where the sections attach to each other.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
How much crew was the Nova supposed to have? Sixty?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Eighty....that's a realistic number for the ship's size (it's just that VOyager is so under-crewed that it seems high by comparison).
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty peeved if the ship blew up around me while I was waiting for the guy in the next escape pod in line to hurry up and get out of the way before I could launch...
Perhaps on ships like the Nova, escape pod could be 'doubled up' by having two pods docked top to tail under a single hatch. That way they could either launch together or in sequence and if as you say the once closest too that hatch is empty or not completely full then people from the other pod can climb up (or down) to fill the seats.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Jason: Really? Perhaps this is sort of a tangent, but I was always under the impression that Voyager, being a "utility" starship, only had along as much crew as she needed for the short-term mission of tracking down a Maquis cell. As this was her first mission, she probably hadn't taken on a full regular crew yet. This would include a bunch of scientists (rarely seen anyway given Janeway's annoying scientist roots) or even a full medical staff (ONE doctor and ONE nurse? Come on!). Given Dan's calculations, I'd be comfortable with the notion that an Intrepid's full regular complement were closer to 200.
Rev et. al.: The escape pods that were on tracks were the ones meant to accomodate the cetacean crew (dolphins and whales). My blueprints are packed away right now, but I believe the cetacean pods are actually part of the connecting tunnel between the main holding tanks. When they need to evacuate, everyone gets inside the pods, they seal off, and move to the egress point.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I know. I was referring to the apparent inconsistency between the Nova's escape pod hatches and crew complement, not how all escape pods are doubled up or on tracks.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Doubled-up pods aren't out of the realm of possibilty... Some sci-fi have just that (Starship Troopers comes to mind).
BTW, I just called up a graphic on the Equinox and found that there are fourteen pods, not ten. So, you've got room for eighty-four people, just barely enough for the normal crew. Given how lean a ship she is to begin with, I think it makes the Nova-class issue kinda moot.
Likewise, a closer look at the Prometheus shows at least twenty-two pods for a maximum evac of 132, assuming six to a pod (though strangely none of the visible pods are on the middle section!).
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Sir, what about Section B?" "Aw, Section B are jerks."
With apologies to Captain Murphy, of course.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Jason: Really? Perhaps this is sort of a tangent, but I was always under the impression that Voyager, being a "utility" starship, only had along as much crew as she needed for the short-term mission of tracking down a Maquis cell. As this was her first mission, she probably hadn't taken on a full regular crew yet. This would include a bunch of scientists (rarely seen anyway given Janeway's annoying scientist roots) or even a full medical staff (ONE doctor and ONE nurse? Come on!). Given Dan's calculations, I'd be comfortable with the notion that an Intrepid's full regular complement were closer to 200. Mark
I agree that Voyager probably was not fully crewed on it's maiden mission but for a ship that large even a crew of 200 seems sparce: at three shifts (with some crew on days off) the ship is run by only 50-70 people? Small wonder losers like the Kazon and Hirogen could steal the ship with impunity.
Although the Intrepid class is from the oh-so-automated -future, it's still far larger (internally) than the Connie was.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:at three shifts (with some crew on days off) the ship is run by only 50-70 people?
I wonder how much larger the Enterprise-D is as compared to Voyager.
And here's why I ask ... the Enterprise had a complement of roughly 1,000 people ... usually the number quoted was 1,012 (I think). But of that, how many were civilians (i.e., "families"), and how many were scientists working in the ship's vast networks of science labs? I suspect when you pare away the Enterprise-D's complement of non-essential personell, the actual CREW of the ship might be as few as three or four hundred. I mean, how many people do you actually NEED to run a starship? Even taking into consideration preventative maintenance, when you consider the "support services" staff on the Enterprise-D's crew (additional medical staff, teachers, etcetra), I don't think a total crew complement of 300 would be unreasonable.
quote:Although the Intrepid class is from the oh-so-automated -future, it's still far larger (internally) than the Connie was.
But ... so what? As Dax said, "They sure like to crowd 'em in on these old starships." Technological advances no doubt help double up on tasks for the crew, eliminating the number of personnel required. I mean, you don't see a comm officer on Picard's bridge anywhere ... because someone decided that the tactical officer could serve as a perfectly good communications officer, too! Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
If memory serves, there was a line near the beginning of David Gerrold's novelization of "Encounter at Farpoint" which said something along the line of the E-D's operational crew being roughly the same as that of the TOS E, i.e. about 400. There was a roughly equal number of scientists and specialists, and about 200 dependents.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I can see the Galaxy's minimum operational crew being 400, but not for any real duration.
The partial builds seen in the Dominion War might have used those figures but for every 10 crewmen you'd need a couple of support staff at least.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The Intrepid has a hair under three times the volume of the TOS Constitution Class, compared to the Galaxy's 27.6 times that volume.
The Galaxy Class has 9.3 times the volume of the Intrepid Class. Subtracting the Galaxy's nacelles (which are especially large compared to the Intrepid's itty-bitty nacelles), the difference drops to 8.4 times.
Given an Intrepid crew complement of 150, we could wonder why the Galaxy doesn't have a crew of 1,260. Alternately, we could take the 1,012 persons aboard the Enterprise-D, assume that perhaps 70% are crew, and then wonder why the Intrepid has more than 84 crewmen.
Personally, I'd imagine that the Galaxy has more automation and more unused or mission-specific space (such as was noted by Troi in "Liaisons"[TNG] regarding the unfinished deck eight), and with the latter removed the complement/volume ratio would fall closer to the Intrepid baseline.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One could also wonder whether there is such a thing as a complement/volume ratio. Perhaps the number of people needed to operate a starship is pretty much fixed, and independent of ship size - X people to man the power systems, Y to handle a fixed selection of C3I tasks, so forth. The only variable tied to volume would be the number of janitors needed.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Riker: "The ship cleans itself." -"Up the Long Ladder"[TNG2]
Having the exact same number of people wouldn't make much sense on ships of different size. Just in raw man-hours, the increased length of plasma conduits or number of replicators or all the other things that need maintenance on the bigger ship would overwhelm the smaller crew of the smaller ship.
That said, though, there doesn't seem to be a linear complement/volume ratio. Just looking at the 50 people on the Defiant in addition to the Galaxy/Intrepid issue shows that.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And perhaps the mission and role of the ship might also have a slight impact on the size of the crew Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Umm... When I count I get 20 pods on the Equinox... Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
He's right.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, that's close enough -- 120/1.6=75. Which pictures were you looking at, Topher? When I checked out Bernd's pictures, I didn't see that many...
As for the Galaxy-class ships, I think it's obvious that a bunch of the people there could be considered "crew" yet are still specialists. After all, Keiko O'Brien was working in the arboretum, for example. I'm sure that every adult civilian aboard the ship would've had some sort of job or another. And as for the kids, somehow I doubt there'd have been more than fifty or sixty of them, even on a ship that size.
Recalling what I've seen of the Enterprise-D's blueprints, there is a HECKUVA lot of empty space on that ship -- the main shuttlebay, the multiple cargo bays, the holodecks, the cetacean tanks, not to mention the extra-large deuterium tank. I think that there's definitely an oversize factor working in favor of the E-D having a smaller crew proportional to total internal volume.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
There are 7 along each side of the saucer just inboard of the phaser strips (14). Inboard of the sixth one back on each side is another (16). And there are 4 directly behind the bridge (20).
-MMoM Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yeah. You know, it's amazing, my Futura mini-machine of the Equinox is so detailed, it has all the pods. Incredible. . .
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'd've probably gotten the right number of pods counted if I'd had the time and money to buy the Federation Models kit, too... Oh well. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's a Starcraft kit! Federation models just sells it. Get it right, damn you all!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh yeah, that's right. Whatever. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Haw! The Equinox has twenty. Guess that solves it rather conclusively - and continues to prove Rick's the go-to guy when it comes to putting lots of forethought into his designs. Go Team Sternbach! Though it'd still be annoying that anyone in the secondary hull would have to clamber up several decks to get to the escape pods...
As for kids on the Enterprise-D, the season one episode "When the Bough Breaks" kidnapped "all the children, with Wesley at 14 being the oldest - this was ten kids tops, I believe. Later episodes suggest that the kid complement increased to a dozen or so ("Hero Worship", "Rascals" et. al.) but tended to fluctuate depending on the plot. Seeing as how kids could leave the nest as early as fourteen to Starfleet Academy and presumably other pursuits, it stands to reason that the number of actual children on the massive GCSes were probably a minimum.
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: There are 7 along each side of the saucer just inboard of the phaser strips (14). Inboard of the sixth one back on each side is another (16). And there are 4 directly behind the bridge (20).
Ack! So that's 20 pods on decks 1-3, with zero for the remaining decks and engineering hull. Hope that baby's got a good shuttle, or else it's "haha! screw you, engineering guys!". Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
did WtBB specify that was all the kids? its possible the Aldeans didnt kidnap all the children on the ship (unless the episode specifies that implicitly somewhere).. i remember Picard briefing the parents and there were very few people there...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think that represented all the Enterprise's children: just the very few that had their kids kidnapped by the (also very few) planet's would-be parents.
So....that planet was in Federation space? It's chock full o' technological secrets for the Fed to ste....er...."trade" for.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
MIght have to break out the DVDs... But for some reason I can't imagine a scene where Dr. Crusher bursts onto the bridge and cries "Jean-Luc! The Aldeans have abducted A FEW of our children!".
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, Bev was prone to hamming it up in first season. She says something like "They've (gasp!)taken our children!!!!"
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
In addition, there were a few classroom scenes in later seasons, with Alexander and some of the other kids-of-the-week, and in all those, there were close to a dozen or so children, all of the same approximate age group. That suggests there were several dozen kids or more on the ship.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I dunno - I'd always thought that the classroom we saw was the ONLY one there was. In episodes like "Rascals", all the kids who weren't able-bodied adults were in that one classroom, which again seemed to be about a dozen INCLUDING the munchkinized crew. I still think that there are only a handful of kids on the ship at any one time. Since kids seem to be considered adults by their mid-teens in the TNG era, they wouldn't need a classroom for much more than primary school (through sixth grade or so).
Perhaps we need a second opinion here... Is anyone on the TrekBBS forums? Rick Sternbach would probably have a better answer for us.
Mark
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
One would expect that a crew in exces of 1000, having families aboard, would have at least half-a-dozen children of ever age group
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: I dunno - I'd always thought that the classroom we saw was the ONLY one there was. In episodes like "Rascals", all the kids who weren't able-bodied adults were in that one classroom,
Graphics in that episode called it "classroom 6" though, or something similar. That implies to me that there are, say, 6 or more classrooms.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The episode (though I shudder to recall it) The Child shows several small children in elementary school and mentions "a litter of puppies" as though it's not an uncommon occurance. If dogs are breeding freely on board, I imagine the crew is as well.
Also, the first episode with (shudder) Alexander attending class has yet another group of elementary school kids attending class.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If dogs are breeding freely on board, I imagine the crew is as well.
Right. Now, you realise that there is a LARGE difference in the reasons why humans mate, compared with why dogs mate?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You havent been to many clubs lately have you?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes, although obviously not the same clubs you go to. Are you saying that all those people are there because they want to reproduce?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
No, I'm sure they're in there for the food and music.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Are you saying that all those people are there because they want to reproduce?"
Well, maybe not to reproduce, but for something a little more... carnal. B)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes. Which is my point.
*sigh*
Dogs have sex to reproduce. If a load of dogs are shagging, puppies are the likely result. Sure, the dogs are possibly only doing it because they enjoy it, but biologically, it's only aim is to further the species.
Humans do not just have sex for reproduction. They have it for fun. They often use items which stop said reproduction from being able to take place, so that only the fun is left. No other species does that. The aformentioned people in clubs aren't there because they want to start up a family. They want to have sex. In humans, unlike other species, the two things are different.
Hence, dogs breeding freely does not mean that humans are reproducing left, right and centre.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Wow. I can't believe we needed that discussion.
Back to the point of children on board, we saw in Generations LaForge and another engineer helping out some (what seemed) lost kids as well (what are they doing running around?). Anyone remember if that suggested there were more? I always got the impression that there were more kids spanning multiple ages.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
More to the point, what were they doing in the secondary hull? I was under the impression that all of the quarters and community facilities were in the saucer section. Same goes for Beverly and her patients.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I always wondered about that as well.
My explanation for the kids is that they were on a field trip, and hid in a corner when the battle started, thus they had to be evacuated when the saucer sep came. As for the patients, there would've been a lot of casualties in engineering during the battle -- and doesn't it make sense to have a secondary sickbay in the secondary hull for times when the ship is separated? Obviously, the casualties were taken to the secondary sickbay and then had to be moved when the ship separated.
Just my rationalization, anyway. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Bev was just running triage in the secondary hull's sickbay (as that's where all the casualties were racking up- thanks to that dork Geordi).
The kids could have been having a holodeck pick-nic for all we know.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:The kids could have been having a holodeck pick-nic for all we know.
Except there are no holodecks in the secondary hull. The field trip sounds like a better idea.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Speaking of which, when Picard orders saucer sep in "E@F", isn't the next scene of security guys directing crewmembers (and children!) through engineering?
I always thought that the ship's "community" (as someone termed them) resources were in the saucer section, so it's always sort of begged the question, "Uh, what?" And didn't we see some alien entity get ready to blast the ship to pieces because it had befriended some little girl who (like the other kiddies) wasn't allowed in certain sections?
It makes sense for the Enterprise to have certain redundant features ... sickbay, etcetra. The earliest dialogue that we have regarding sickbay in regards to its location actually suggests it is in the stardrive section, re: "Arsenal of Freedom", although a more realistic view is that sickbay spans both sections (or that there are two different sickbays). Given that sickbay is almost certainly larger than the filming set (i.e., surgical suites, isolation wards, dentist booth, whatever else you might need), I'm just going to shut up now because I forget where I was going with this.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye sickbay runs one deck beneath the battle bridge and into the saucer from there: that way there would only need to be some kind of lowering bulkhead when the ship seperates and paitents would only need to be moved to the next room instead of several decks down. It's be pracical to place it there because of the proximity to all three shuttlebays as well.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I have only seen the TNG Blueprints once, but I do recall that the main sickbay was supposed to be a huge facility, which actually took over most of deck 10, IIRC. We only saw a very small fraction of it of course. I can't recall seeing a secondary sickbay in the blueprints of the engineering section. Although that doesn't disprove the possibility, naturally.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My blueprints are packed up... But a secondary hull sickbay could have been an extra modification made shortly before her destruction; the blueprints didn't show the new bridge set in the movie, for example.
However, the blueprints DO show a lot of crew quarters in the secondary hull. People may be confusing things with the Shane Johnson book, which states that the E-nil moved all its crew quarters to the saucer section alone for better separation operations. THere has never been anything said in the show that the E-D kept everyone exclusively in the suacer section.
And I don't think anyone's about to count the number of crew quarters in the blueprints to see if a thousand people could fit in there.
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
In "Arsenal of Freedom", when Riker, Picard, Tasha, Data and Crusher are beamed back aboard, there's a line which states that Dr. Crusher has been taken to sickbay. Remember - Geordi had seperated the ship. If there's no sickbay in the stardrive section, where did they send Beverly? And since the stardrive is supposed to be the combatant section, what sense does it make NOT to have a sickbay facility?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: However, the blueprints DO show a lot of crew quarters in the secondary hull. People may be confusing things with the Shane Johnson book, which states that the E-nil moved all its crew quarters to the saucer section alone for better separation operations. THere has never been anything said in the show that the E-D kept everyone exclusively in the suacer section.
The E-D deck chart list in the Encyclopedia, for example, says that there were quarters inside the ship's "neck." And remember that scene in "Heart of Glory" when Worf and the two Klingons were near the Battle Bridge and had that almost-hostage situation? That was in the secondary hull...
I'm guessing that there were some quarters located in the secondary hull, and that there were probably some kids living in those regions too. So they had to go up twenty decks to get to the community sections? There are apartment buildings that big in New York City, I'm sure.
They just happened to have gathered that big crowd of kids together in "Generations" so they could have the tearjerker scene of those poor kids being rushed through the halls and that little girl could lose her teddy. That's all. Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Sickbay is on Deck 12 and spans a quarter of it.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:I'm guessing that there were some quarters located in the secondary hull, and that there were probably some kids living in those regions too.
I would disagree with part of that. It makes sense that there would be crew quarters in the secondary hull - if the ship is seperated for an extended time, where would the engineering crew sleep? But I don't think that children were housed in the secondary hull - in the event of a seperation, the ideal would be to have as much of the crew in the section they needed to be in, without having to have a mad dash around the ship. If the engineering crews were quartered primarily in the stardrive section, then come time for "saucer sep", they wouldn't have to worry about where they were going to sleep that night.
Re: "Heart of Glory" ... there are some decks, IIRC, which span both stardrive and saucer sections. Just because the "hostage" situation took place near the battle bridge, it does not mean that it took place in the secondary hull. As I recall, the Battle Bridge is on deck 8. Not hard to rationalize that around the next corner there's a corridor to the secondary hull which would be closed off by bulkheads.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
If we rationalize that the secondary hull is where the Engineering crew is housed, then those engineers with families could be down there too. Except Geordi of course, who was apparently living on deck two along with Worf and Data. I suppose exceptions could be made for family people.
Regardless, manually climbing UP a dozen or two floors to evacuacte would really suck. Maybe they'd do something smart like dial back on the artificial gravity in situations like that.
Mark
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
We don't actually find out where Geordi's quarters are (deck number, that is, although I'm aware of where the blueprints put him. I severely disagree with that. They did it to match ceiling structures of the quarters set with features on the Deck 2 exterior.) We did find out on "The Offspring" that Data's quarters are on Deck 17, which would put him on the secondary hull, but there's never a mention of it later on in the series and then all of a sudden in the blueprints BAM!, Data's on deck 2. Since he was on Deck 17, and so, presumably was Spot, how did spot get himself out of the secondary hull to wind up in a saucer section cargo bay on Veridian III??
The part of the crash that I cringed at more than the children in the secondary hull, was the supposedly 'Transparent Aluminum" windows shattering as though they dramatically were made of glass.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Candy glass, at that. Moreover, I'm wondering why anyone would consider ANY room that has a window to the outside to be a safe room to sit in while crash landing...
Mark
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I would imagine that engineers with families would be housed in the saucer section. It just makes sense that the non-combatants would be housed in the section designed to carry them to safety -- if you need to seperate in a hurry, do you really want to waste more time making sure all the children and civilians have gotten onto the saucer?
"Can we seperate YET?"
"No, sir, Mr. Ringwald and his brats stopped at the toilet on deck 15..."
SoundEffect: are you CERTAIN re: "The Offspring" that it was Data's quarters and not his lab? Was it dialogue?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
Data gets into the turbolift with Lal and I believe they were heading towards Data's quarters...if memory serves that's where the next scene takes place, not the lab. Don't have a reference to check. Data calls to the turbolift, "Deck 17".
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
According to the script for "The Offspring", Data says Deck Fifteen, and while you may have inferred that they were going to his quarters, there is no dialogue which supports any conclusion as to where they were going. Given other evidence (noteably Spot's location in "Generations" and other information regarding the location of Data' quarters), I think the strongest evidence supports the Deck Two location.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Also as we see in Nemisis, Data's belongings also survied the crash, along with spot. It is however possible that Data moved quarters at some point before Generations.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Not that it is considered canon, but the Interactive TNG Technical Manual also puts Data's quarters on Deck 2.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
There was never any indication that there were any crew quarters on Deck 2 at all. The only thing we knew was on Deck 2 was the Officer's Dining Hall when Kurn was on board.
Even Picard's quarters were way down on Deck 8.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Riker and Troi were also on Deck 8.
Crusher was on Deck 9 - Section 28.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Which reminds me of a goof. In the episode where we first meet the Borg (and Sonya Gomez), Picard goes to his quarters to change his uniform after Gomez accidentally spills some hot chocolate on him. As he steps into the lift, he orders "Deck 9, Officers' Quarters". In fact, he even says it before he is completely in the lift.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Hmmm, maybe he was keeping some uniforms in Beverly's old quarters ... Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Theoretically, the officers' quarters could extend across quite a few decks, considering the famously elevated Starfleet officer-to-grunt ratio. And perhaps a centralized tailor shop is located on deck nine... (Although I do prefer that Bev's quarters idea!)
Frankly, I think deck 2 is big enough to hold berthing in addition to a mess hall. In fact, it's so big it desperately needs something more than a mess hall. And a "ready room" type arrangement for top officers would be just fine.
Perhaps Data is an exception, choosing to live in a relatively austere "ready room" instead of the more luxurious surroundings of the lower decks? And LaForge might have two cabins, one for his bridge duties and one for his later engineering role. It's not as if there would be a shortage of cabins aboard, so why not have more than one?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Why have more than one? You'd have to be one lazy bastard to want to avoid the effort of a turbolift ride. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
True. But perhaps one was for when the ship was seperated.
And why did Geordi, Data and Worf have such piddlingly small quarters anyway? Surely they should have had the same sort as Riker, Troi, Crusher etc... Okay, maybe Worf and Geordi started off in smaller rooms, but why wouldn't they move? Geordi doesn't strike me as someone so humble as to refuse a bigger living area. And Worf would be able to practise better martial arts moves, or something...
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Riker and Troi were also on Deck 8.
Crusher was on Deck 9 - Section 28.
I'm vaguelly recalling a passage from the Nitpicker's Guide which indicated that Troi moved quarters at one point. I can't quite remember where though...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Riker and Troi were also on Deck 8.
Crusher was on Deck 9 - Section 28.
I'm vaguelly recalling a passage from the Nitpicker's Guide which indicated that Troi moved quarters at one point. I can't quite remember where though...
I was going through my old 1st Ed. ST:Encyclopedia and saw I had made notes in it regarding those characters being located in those quarters, but I honestly couldn't tell you at what point in the series or the specific episode those references were made, just that that came out of some episode at some point.
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