I'm just double checking, I haven't found anything on this from the web... the ship above the Saratoga in the scene where she blows up. I can't personally identify it and I haven't found a screen cap anywhere.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Wasn't it that proto-Nebula?
Mark
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
That's what I'm thinking now, but I was under the impression it wasn't used in that episode.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
The ship has been identified by others as the Proto-Nebula. I believe you may find more information on this and other ships at Ex-Astris-Scientia, a site run by Bernd.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
btw, noticed a few things while making caps..
it seems they used the damaged Vico Oberth model for the Bonestell's destruction.. you can see the decks within on this model.
also, the Melbourne's saucer, in high res caps, seems to have some warped seams.. possibly visible evidence of the saucer being made of a material to be fried for the camera? (or possibly simply from being a break away seam?) definitely evidence that this Excelsior model was a custom build for the episode
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
EAS was the first place I went, I didn't find caps from DS9 only TNG, which is understandable as TNG was the episode with the hidden ships.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Mike, could you please make a cuple of caps of the Oberth at Deep Space Nine from this episode? Supposedly it was the Cochrane, but it apparently had the Yosemite's registry.
I be much appreciative if you could do one that shows the entire vessel and then one that shows the shot where the registry is visible.
Thanks much, -MMoM Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Have we ventured any guesses as to exactly where on the Saratoga Sisko's funky-window quarters are? I can't image those windows match up with anything on the model, but I suppose we could always say that that's what the windows on the edge of the saucer "actually" look like.
Like the corridor of the ship they arrived at DS9 on, I'm sure their only concern was making sure the windows looked different than the Ent-D's.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
I actually thought that it was where the hull had been ripped away...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hm. I suppose it could be. But there's no wiring or piping or anything that you'd expect to see inside a bulkhead. With him being the first officer, I'm guessing he'd have window quarters.
The roundness on the frame corners looks way too intentional for it do be exposed structural innards. But, is there any evidence of a forcefield being up?
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
They look kind like where the hull starts to slope down the the bottom of the primary hull before sloping up again.
It'd be nice if they actually used glass in those windows... Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
The windows don't look to me as if a piece of hull had just been ripped off. It may be the upper deck of the saucer edge, but the curvature is no good fit.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
There was a publicity shot showing several behind-the-scenes members, one of which was definitly holding the USS Yosemite NCC-19002 model. As I recall, even on store-bought VHS, you couldn't read the Cochrane's registry at all, so unless the DVD shos something, we may be at a standstill regarding the Cochrane's number on a filming model.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, Spike showed that model was indeed labeled with NCC-59318 in "The Drumhead." But then they relabeled it later as the Yosemite.
What I'd like to know is how the ship from "Emissary" got to be called Cochrane. It wasn't in dialogue was it? I don't think it was in the script, either. My bet is that Okuda simply forgot that the model was relabelled again, and since he thought Cochrane labels were the last ones, he just reasoned that the ship in "Emissary" was the Cochrane.
Any chance of those caps, please? For my shiplist? (Which is soon to be updated!!!)
I don't really care if you can't see the registry, the only reason I thought so was due to the fact that the old SWDAO said it was visible in one shot:
quote:According to the Star Trek Encyclopedia (both editions), the USS Cochrane was the ship that transported Julian Bashir and Jadzia Dax to DS9 in "Emissary." However, when the tail end of the ship is seen in that episode, the registry appears to be NCC-19002, that of the USS Yosemite.
That's one biiiig fucking Oberth in that shot. 300 meters?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Thanks for those, Spikey. You've been my most extensive and reliable source for screencaps from the beginning. And just to show my overwhelming appreciation for your contributions...
...I'll be starting a new thread soon with a bunch more requests!
-MMoM Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I gotta ask, what is that bottom pontoon below the Obert's saucer filled with? It can't be living quarters, as the pylons are too thin to have turbolifts. I think I saw one image of the Oberth where the bottom thing was exchanged for a torp launcher.
Wouldn't it be nice to just rip off the bottom thing and the pylons? It would turn into one swift little racer, like a courier ship or small patrol ship.
Thoughts?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Whatever it is, it's widely understood to be the 'science' part of the ship. Whether that means labs or just one big sensor array is up to you.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Some MSD's have the Oberth's pod thing with quarters and some with only sensor equipment (I agree with the sensors only version). The variant with the Miranda torpedo pod underslung is the "Orca" version and there was once an excellent vaccuform model made of it. I've got pics somewhere if you want them.
quote:Wouldn't it be nice to just rip off the bottom thing and the pylons? It would turn into one swift little racer, like a courier ship or small patrol ship.
I made it after watching that TNG episode where the klingon ambassador was fired off in a freakin' torpedo casing to meet the Enterprise. Such a stupid idea.
So the Owens class is a diplomatic transport vessel with two extra nacelles to allow for longer cruise times at high warp. My model could use some work but it's only 1.5" long...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The Owens class was nice, but I'm thinking nothing on the underside.
I once heard there had been plans to make the 1701 saucer detachable via exploding bolts already in "TMP", but it was scrapped due to budget reasons. So what if the Oberth could just release its pylons and bottom part, go through some software/hardware refits for a few hours in the bridge and engineering, then speed away, in some kind of emergency situation, like it's the only ship close to a interstellar accident or military incident and has to report back to Earth ASAP or go investigate, leaving the bottom thing and sluggishness behind.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmmm...mabye they detach the pod in orbit around some intresting planet for weeks or months ata time to record phenomena or development and return for it later or some specialized starship retieves them.
AFAIK, Starfleet Dynamics calls the torp-podded Oberth top "Asmodeus class" and the four-nacelled courier "Clarke class"...
If we don't want to believe in 300m Oberths, we can say the Cochrane hadn't finished docking when the camera moved away in "Emissary". We just failed to witness the portside-first docking maneuver that moved the ship significantly away from the camera and spanned the multi-hundred-meter gap between her and the docking pylon. The rest of the perspective illusion would then be due to the lens choice...
One wonders what class of ship the Saratoga was intended to be when the sets were built. The Miranda-mod smacks of a last-minute money-saver - perhaps a dedicated design was originally planned, one matching those windows or structural girders?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
You mean a Year 236?-ship previously unseen?
Is there something peculiar about the windows and structural girders that makes you feel it was supposed to be an unorthodox ship, Timo?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The kink in the beams *is* kinda weird... We've never seen a ship with that sort of an outer shape. Starfleet saucers generally have vertical rims, or then rims angled like the TOS ship's, or perhaps the curved rim of the Oberth. No ship so far has this kinked shape, neither for windows nor for hull plating. If one made a 1:8 size Galaxy kitbash, then perhaps - but the 1:2 kitbashes still have at least one deck's worth of vertical wall for the rim.
In the absence of suitable exterior designs, I'd say the Saratoga was simply squashed and bent. What we see is a section of wall with all the paneling ripped off and with even the insanely strong structural skeleton bent out of shape...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
an Oberth upper hull with no pylons or additions would be a Darwin-class scout from the SotSF/Recognition Chart milieu..
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, technically, only the windows would need to have that shape. The hull around them could still be flat, you'd just have windows popping out past the plane of the hull.
But, the only barrier between you and the void of space is probably not the best place to see how funky or flimsy you can get with interior design.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I think that considering that the corridor outside Sisko's quarters on the Saratoga was straight, that the quarters were probably somewhere in that upper/rear section with all the forward-facing windows. I know that's not an option many people considered before (and doesn't fit with general Starfleet layout of starships and the location of their quarters), but it seems the most logical to me.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... good point. Any straight corridors in the saucer would be "spoke" corridors coming out from the center of the saucer, meaning no rooms off those corridors could be facing space on any bulkhead parallel to them. The wall with the windows on it is running parellel to the corridor Sisko entered from, IIRC.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I don't have a pic of a Miranda handy - could it be on a "deck two" i.e. under the bridge? The passageway runs straight and only the compartments on the either end have windows?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: I once heard there had been plans to make the 1701 saucer detachable via exploding bolts already in "TMP", but it was scrapped due to budget reasons.
If you are referring to TMP itself, the whole saucer-separation at the end of the movie was used in two alternate endings Andy Probert proposed, but neither were really considered. Andy did design the TMP Enterprise model with the separation line (and how it would work can be seen in The Art of Star Trek), but the fact that the model can't separate wasn't a factor of budget, just that the script didn't call for it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
They talked about separating the ship as an emergency maneuver as early as TOS "The Apple." Kirk to Scotty:
Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to and crack out of there with the main section but get that ship out of there!
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Although "main section" doesn't necessarily mean the saucer. He cold have meant everything but the nacelles.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: AFAIK, Starfleet Dynamics calls the torp-podded Oberth top "Asmodeus class" and the four-nacelled courier "Clarke class"... Timo Saloniemi
There was a four nacelled Oberth prior to mine!? So much for originality in kitbashes (sigh).
Why would Starfleet call a class of ship "Asmodeous" class? How 'bout "Satan" class or "Lucifer" class while we're naming ships after demons. Dumb.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Sympathy for the devil...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I can see the dedication plaque now...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Heil Hitler! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Perfect for a Fed ship, yessiree.....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think that the Sisko quarters... hang on - who says they are quarters? Show where the bulkhead has ripped/burnt/exploded away. They are way too big to be windows even for another class - who'd have such large windows in their quarters? No ship ever has before.
The profile of those bulkhead structures looks like how people have 'sideon' walls depicted in MSDs.
PLUS maybe they didn't have windowed quarters there were three of them in those quarters and maybe it's where even more of the ship has been ripped away.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Maybe we could interrupt the window as a solid sheet that would have decorative pieces placed around it for both extra strength and to make it look like the windows we are used to.
Edit: at least for that large section of quarters, which might include everything from Jake's room, across the commons area, to Benifer's room [that's funny, in a very sick way].
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It could be a datcare or the ship's classroom fow all we know: Ben nad Jennifer wouldbe both gone racing to get Jake in an emergency.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Mike XLVII: an Oberth upper hull with no pylons or additions would be a Darwin-class scout from the SotSF/Recognition Chart milieu..
Didn't we work out in a thread from Flare past that the first three shillohettes on that chart are the Enterprise-ringship broken into three sections to make three new ships.
I think the Ariadne was the 'ring' part. Lombardy? the 'connecting neck/stick' and the first one the 'forward habitable section'.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: How 'bout "Satan" class or "Lucifer" class while we're naming ships after demons. Dumb.
USS Lucifer, NCC-521, Siva class destroyer, from the Franz Joseph Star Fleet Technical Manual. The whole class is named after 'bad' and/or 'warlike' gods (or maybe just after TV-SF/Fantasy villains) - Ares, Hathor, Iblis, Jugurtha, Loki, Mars, Molock, Tyr.
By the 23rd century Satan may well be regarded as being in the same mythological category as Mars and Loki.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Then again, Lucifer and Asmodeus are basically "good" gods in their original context, standing for things like spring, light, and birth. They have simply become associated with the medieval Christian devil in a somewhat unjust way, much like Hermes "became" Merkurius or Zeus "became" Jupiter despite key differences in characterization.
Depending on whether Admiral Roddenberry still was in charge when the Asmodeuses were built, it might also be that all religious figures and deities are summarily considered "evil" and thus good names for "nasty" warships. USS Christ could be a sufficiently "frightening" name for a battlecruiser that has the potential to kill millions.
Hmm. I kinda dig the concept that Sisko's quarters weren't on the outer rim of the ship initially, and that the Borg redecorated the ship more than we thought. But we get a pretty good all-around look of the ship, without seeing such major damage. It must have occurred on the bow (which we don't see after the big hit that prompts the evacuation) if it occurred at all.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: That's one biiiig fucking Oberth in that shot. 300 meters?
Look at the lighting source - maybe it does end up moving horizontal to dock with the pylon... the oberth is in relative darkness but the pylon is in more light.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The 'bends' in the walls of rooms on starship MSDs is evident in this Voyager cut-away found on Gilso's site:
Another thing is... I too think there was supposed to be a new design for the Saratoga... It looked like they had quite a large crew for a Miranda ship... considering there was only a handful running the Lantree.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Three conversations going on here at once!
I think it was rather interesting that there were "families" on a Miranda, especially with nonStarfleet spouses. Especially after (like Andrew said) we've seen the Lantree and Brattain with a crew under 50. Then again, wasn't the Reliant theoretically supposed to have something like 200 crew aboard it, perhaps the case here with the Saratoga??
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Conversations:
#1) Lucifer is a translation from the Latin "Light Bringer" and was thought to have been the prideful angel that took the Fall. Later, as cultures blended somewhat, the term "Satan" (a bastardization of "Shiatan" or advesary) became the catch all for this tester of mortals (see Job for my meaning here: he's not originally depicted as evil in the Old Testament). I've never heard of Asmodeous as anything but a demon name: got a source on a pre-christian refrence?
#2.) The Oberth (Cochrane) could indeed be "closer to the camera" in that scene but for the ship to appear that large, it'd have to be almost touching the other pylons. Depending on your opinion of DS9's size, of course.
#3.) I think the room Sisko found Jennifer and Jake in was at the (relativly) flat plane of windows just aft and above the saucer. I think the windows have buckled outward and are only being held together (as is much of the ship) by the S.I.F., as the Borg casually discect the Saratoga. Mabye the Borg took their time chopping up the ship because of it's a novel variant on the miranda and swatted the Melbourne because they'd already assimilated an Excelsior somewhere prior.
There were likely famlies in limited numbers on the Saratoga because it was assigned to duty well within the protected borders of Federation space. (also accounting for those sensor pontoons instead of the torpedo launcher).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Crew counts: Lantree - 26 Br!ttain - 34
My general theory is that Mirandas these days take only about 20 people to run the thing. Older ships, or ships on non-frontline missions, are heavily automated and have a selection of mission specialists in addition to the basic crew: a half dozen cargo specialists on the Lantree, or a bunch of scientists on the Br!ttain.
Saratoga, as a specialized ship (or whatever those pods are for) would probably be carrying that same core crew, plus whatever specialists, and then for whatever reason their families. Say, for example, that Saratoga could've been a surveyor on a long-term non-combat mission through mostly explored or Federeation space. Given that we saw only 3-4 escape pods leave the ship (up to ~20 people each, no?), I'm thinking her total crew including civvies would be no more than 100.
Various "combat Mirandas" seen during the war (with or without the questionable addition of impulse engines aft) would likely have no more than 50 aboard, given the probable level of automation. Slap a tactical and damage control crew in there, and you'll have a conteporary of the Defiant. I'm most convinced of that shot in "SoA" with Defiant, Sitak and Majestic flying in formation - just doesn't seem right that the two other ships would still have 200+ people aboard.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Mabye the Borg took their time chopping up the ship because of it's a novel variant on the miranda and swatted the Melbourne because they'd already assimilated an Excelsior somewhere prior.
Maybe the Borg took time carving it up cause it couldn't work out where those large 'windows' were? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Crew counts: Lantree - 26 Br!ttain - 34
My general theory is that Mirandas these days take only about 20 people to run the thing. Older ships, or ships on non-frontline missions, are heavily automated and have a selection of mission specialists in addition to the basic crew: a half dozen cargo specialists on the Lantree, or a bunch of scientists on the Br!ttain.
The Lantree was just a freighter and the Brittain was....er....doomed, so they didint need much by way of crew. (Mirandas and Oberths were deathtraps on TNG) I figure a ship as large as the Miranda needs a crew of at least 45: 15 crewmen per shift minimum (dont forget people getting the occasional leave or day off). 15 per shift is still really sparce.
quote: Saratoga, as a specialized ship (or whatever those pods are for) would probably be carrying that same core crew, plus whatever specialists, and then for whatever reason their families. Say, for example, that Saratoga could've been a surveyor on a long-term non-combat mission through mostly explored or Federeation space. Given that we saw only 3-4 escape pods leave the ship (up to ~20 people each, no?), I'm thinking her total crew including civvies would be no more than 100.
Feasable: assuming that the civillians still performed some shipboard duties in their respective departments (science techs can still calibrate a sensor, those lazy bastards!).
quote: Various "combat Mirandas" seen during the war (with or without the questionable addition of impulse engines aft) would likely have no more than 50 aboard, given the probable level of automation. Slap a tactical and damage control crew in there, and you'll have a conteporary of the Defiant. I'm most convinced of that shot in "SoA" with Defiant, Sitak and Majestic flying in formation - just doesn't seem right that the two other ships would still have 200+ people aboard.
I agree completely (a crew of 50 is right for wartime)....although I dont get your "added impulse engines" refrence. Everything I've seen shows stock Miarandas being swatted like flies with no external upgrades (although they dont fire phasers from the rollbar on DS9).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The Added Impulse Engine thing refers to the fact that, in many of the later-DS9 shots, the rear torpedo area of the Miranda's glowed, like impulse engines. It was probably a mistake by the VFX people, but a possible fan-explanation is that the rear torpedo launcher has been replaced with extra impulse engines.
On the other parts of this topic, I do wonder why the civilians were there in the first place. They could have easily been stuffed into escape pods. But then the Enterprise never seemed to be too concerned at risking the lives of the non-Starfleet crew on a weekly basis, so maybe no other Captain does. The civilians probably all have to sign forms promising not to sue Starfleet if they get assimilated.
And Jason: Don't say "Brittain". It'll just through Omega back into bad habits.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
even though the Mirand� shown in TNG and DS9 (and Voyager, Generations and FC) had no significant external alterations, i think its fair to assume the decrease in crew count comes from significant interior remodeling. In the movie era, there were dozens of dead end jobs that were downsized due to automation, this must necessarily occur when a TNG-era Miranda has new internal mechanics installed to carry out this automation. TWOK showed a lot of weapons crew and engineering officers. All those guys who pulled the grates off the torpedo launchers are kinda redundant. (but then again, NX-01 launchers load themselves )
TNG weapons are mostly under computer operation, and remember.. the ships cleans itself! that accounts for a couple jobs right there.. but how many 'ship cleaning itself' conduits did they have to run through the old converted galley room which is no longer used due to replicator installation.
of course my internal modification theory does have one hole: as early as ST3 Scotty ran a whole frickin Constitution with only like 5 people on it, and all in one location.. apparently the dozens of engineers at relays seen in TOS, TMP, TWOK and ST6 weren't as important as they seemed. apparently most every station that is necessary for weapons and travel is able to be controlled by computer (Ultimate Computer; Search for Spock).. the only jobs the ship cant do itself is make decisions and physically manipulate its own equipment.
perhaps: the only reason Starfleet keeps people aboard is because they cant stabilize the computer control without them, M-5 and the failure of the automation in St3 demonstrate this. or they cant afford to keep so much computing equipment under that massive load, people are just cheaper to use.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
I think the Sisko quarters were located portside on the USS Saratoga. I base this on two observations - 1. While being held in a Borg tractor beam, the USS Saratoga was facing towards the Borg cube. 2. The USS Bonestell was struck by a single shot coming off-screen from the right. This suggests the starship was flying under the portside of the crippled Miranda-Class starship when the Bonestell was destroyed. As we know there was only one Cube at this point in the battle, the shot could have only come from the Borg cube which was located to the front of the Saratoga.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The presence of a family amongst other things (to me) points to the Saratoga originally being another design.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Why? If the ever-exploding Oberth class can have families, why not a Miranda?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
How many people did Khan have with him when he commandeered the Reliant? Remember that, from the original batch, several died on Ceti Alpha V. Per TWoK's dialogues, they must have been 50 at most.
quote: He never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sand heap with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?
quote:Allow me introduce you to Ceti Alpha Five's only remaining indigenous life form; what do you think? They've killed twenty of my people, including my beloved wife.
So, back then in the late 23rd century, with the technology of the day, 50 people could manage to crew a Miranda-class vessel. Granted, they were genetically enhanced, but I don't think that would make too much of a difference...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they pulled the ol' Ceti Eel trick on some of Reliant's crew? At least to show them how to fly the ship.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
As I understood it, the rest of the Reliant's crew (aside from Terrell and Ckekov) was marooned on Ceti Alpha V. From Kirk's log near the end of the movie:
quote:Captain's Log, Stardate eighty-one, thirty-one, point six. Starship Enterprise departed for Ceti Alpha Five to pick up the crew of the USS Reliant.
They may have forced them to teach them how to fly it, but they didn't keep them aboard later. (And also, I don't think Kirk wouldn't have attempted to save the crew if they had been aboard).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Like Kirk was asking questions... I wonder how many crew Reliant had...and how many died on Ceti Alpha V: that was a really small shelter that Kahn's gang had to live in after all.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The novelization suggested that some of the Reliant crew were eeled-up and made to work in Engineering, for example.
Reliant was able to paste the Enterprise AND keep fighting after major damage to photon control and warp drive - they even managed to fix almost all of that by the time they hit the Mutara nebula. On fifty people, tops? It's a good argument that they can function on that amount of regular crew in the TNG era, automating tons of stuff.
Starfleet: the Federation's greatest make-work program.
Mark
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If you'll recall, Tyrell told Kirk & co that the Reliant's crew had been marooned just after they found him and Chekov on Regula-1. As for how Khan's people managed to crew and repair the Reliant so quickly; for one thing they are 'superhuman' and I think it was noted in 'Space Seed' how quickly Khan assimilated the data tapes they gave him. Also he had access to Tyrell and through him the Reliant's command codes so he could call up whatever info they needed to get things running. However it's not as if they were as competent as a fully trained crew, for one they didn't change the prefix code nor could Khan find the override in a hurry.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Yes, I remember that bit of "Space Seed"... also, being genetically enhanced, I suppose that means they can go for longer periods without sleep. Which would be very helpful in order to run a ship with only 50 people.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The eelish crew thing was a novel reference, not canon. It's just one way the author thought up to cover the notion that Khan's crew couldn't do EVERYTHING.
By most estimations the movie didn't last much more than a couple days at most, between the first encounter between ships to the destruction of Reliant. Going a day or more without sleep is not unknown for Starfleet crews, even cadets.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I forgot the Bico?? From "Hero Worship" had Family - but that after all wasn't a Starfleet ship. And we've seen Oberth run with like 8 people.
How many were on the Tsiolkovsky!?! There seemed to be a lot. Come to think of it what did the Tsiolkovsky bridge look like?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The Biko was a Starfleet ship and was from another episode. The ship you are referring to from "Hero Worship" was the SS Vico. And I do find it a little unusual for a ship to be run by only eight people, even though the Oberth class is a small ship. I also find it very unusual for the (U)SS Raven to be run by only two people (who also had to care for a third person, their daughter).
The (KE) Tsiolkovsky had a crew of 80. The only glimpse of the bridge was, for the most part, just the aft wall with a big hole in it where there was once a hatch that had been blown.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: However it's not as if they were as competent as a fully trained crew, for one they didn't change the prefix code nor could Khan find the override in a hurry.
Why couldnt they get any info on Genesis? They wanted it from Kirk but they were on the starfleet ship assigned to the project!
Why would Kirk know anything more than Tyrell? ..and dont give me that "cuz he's an Admiral" crap: he was a air traffic controller with a title.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
He did seem to have some sort of personal involvement in the Genesis Project though. The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II, and it would have made no sense for him to narrate them unless he had some sort of involvement.
(And yes, I know it's because they didn't want to pay whatzerface to appear again as Carol, but we're not talking about that.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
HUh? In STII, Kirk knew nothing about Genesis back in STII, and in STIII, you saw kirk's report on it to the Federation with clips of Dr. Marcus' demo movie tossed in because they looked so cool.
Kirk was'nt involved at all in Genesis' development(unless he lost his memory or something: he had a history of sporadic memory loss in TOS, as I recall).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
1.) I wonder if Kirk was supposed to be the commandant of Starfleet Academy at the time?
2.) "The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II"
On what do you base this? (Assuming it isn't something obvious, like a stardate I've never paid attention to.)
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
The impression that I got watching TWOK was that he knew something about Genesis. Carol didn't find it any odd that Kirk would know about it for example. She wasn't outraged that he knew about it, but that he was ordering it to be used for military purposes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Phht. Find me an ex-girlfriend that cant assume the worst about you.
She wouldnt be suprised he knew about Genesis because he was Admiral and famous guy.
Kirk clearly knows jack about it when he and Spock pull it up in the computer: otherwise, why go to all the bother?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: HUh? In STII, Kirk knew nothing about Genesis back in STII,
Er, what have you based that on? The moment Genesis is mentioned, Kirk starts looking paniced. The Genesis marketing video scene implies that Kirk is showing the footage for Spock and McCoy's benefit. He certainly doesn't seem surprised by any of the information that it contains.
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: 2.) "The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II"
On what do you base this? (Assuming it isn't something obvious, like a stardate I've never paid attention to.)
Actually, I haven't checked the stardate, but it makes most sense. I can't really see Kirk stopping and making a promotional video of Genesis between films. If nothing else, I'm sure he talks about Genesis in a theoretical sense throughout (as Carol did), rather than mentioning that they'd already used it. They are going to do tests, rather than they have already done so.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I, on the other hand, have always assumed that Kirk recorded his testimony after Star Trek II in response to the Federation Council's investigation. It's not like he's really busy during that time.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Someone who is less cool than me get the script and work out what Kirk is actually saying. That should give us a better clue.
And I still say that he never gives the impression at any point during STII that he doesn't know what Genesis is.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote: If you'll recall, Tyrell told Kirk & co...
quote:Why would Kirk know anything more than Tyrell?
Really? I thought Roy Batty killed Tyrell back in 2019...
Oh you guys mean Capt. Terrell! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote: If you'll recall, Tyrell told Kirk & co...
quote:Why would Kirk know anything more than Tyrell?
Really? I thought Roy Batty killed Tyrell back in 2019...
Oh you guys mean Capt. Terrell!
Paul Winfield: More human than human.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I, on the other hand, have always assumed that Kirk recorded his testimony after Star Trek II in response to the Federation Council's investigation. It's not like he's really busy during that time.
Exactly.
Enterprise is boned: seriously damaged, they mabye do a quick spin of the area surrounding the Genesis planet (to shoot off Spock and for Jim to give his little speach) and then they had to retrieve Reliant's crew (probably not really close based on Reliant's original return time to the station).
Then they met another ship somewhere on the way back to Spacedock, dropped off the trainees and Reliant's crew, managed to blow up part of the torpedo bay and do some makeshift patching of the secondary hull's damage.
More than enough time for Kirk and company to be throughly grilled over the incident by Starfleet Command and to prepare that little presentation for the Council.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: 1.) I wonder if Kirk was supposed to be the commandant of Starfleet Academy at the time?
Well according to the script on ST-Minutiae , this dialog that I don't quite recall answers that, as well as an eariler "Space Seed" reference made by someone else:
quote: KHAN (RE: the Reliant) It's not much different from Enterprise. (beat) When I was a guest aboard her some years ago, Captain Kirk kindly allowed me to memorize her technical manuals.
And now, Mr. Chekov, let us review: You say you have no details of Project 'Genesis' ?
CHEKOV Beyond what I told you, sir, it is classified information.
KHAN Umm. And would Admiral Kirk have access to such information?
CHEKOV I would think so, sir. He's on the Fleet General Staff.
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: 2.) "The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II"
On what do you base this? (Assuming it isn't something obvious, like a stardate I've never paid attention to.)
It was never specifically stated one way or the other that Kirk was aware of Genesis, despite what Chekov said. Spock, however, specifically stated that he had no knowledge of Genesis:
quote: KIRK Give up Genesis, she said. What in God's name does that mean? Give it up to whom?
SPOCK It might help my analysis if I knew what Genesis was.
Then while watching the tape there is a small exchange where Spock is impressed with the inital description and Kirk say "wait" as in 'it only gets better', implying Kirk has seen it before.
Anyway, thats my take on it...
"Emissary" to "The Wrath of Khan"....quite a gear change. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have the nice normal version of TWOK (the one with Scotty explaining about his nephew in engineering) and I've never heard any of those Kahn-Chekov lines much less Kirk's "it only gets better" line....I take it this was never filmed or put into the SE.
If Kirk knew about Genesis, it sure doesnt come across that way onscreen. Why else would he say "What the God's name is Genesis?" if he'd already seen the demo?
Is there any mention of WHY Kahn thinks Kirk would have acess to Genesis but Terrell wouldnt?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I have the nice normal version of TWOK (the one with Scotty explaining about his nephew in engineering) and I've never heard any of those Kahn-Chekov lines much less Kirk's "it only gets better" line....I take it this was never filmed or put into the SE.
No, he only said "Wait..." as if saying "Wait, it only gets better..." and I agree, I didn't rememeber that Khan/Chekov conversation either. Seems to me, ye ole' MinuteMan needs a more accurate script on his site... Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: [QUOTE]No, he only said "Wait..." as if saying "Wait, it only gets better..." and I agree, I didn't rememeber that Khan/Chekov conversation either. Seems to me, ye ole' MinuteMan needs a more accurate script on his site...
More accurate than the shooting script? Just cuz it ain't in the movie don't mean it wasn't in the script. Hell, whole scenes were rearranged in editing in TWOK.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If Kirk knew about Genesis, it sure doesnt come across that way onscreen. Why else would he say "What the God's name is Genesis?" if he'd already seen the demo?
He never said "What in God's name is Genesis" in any version of the movie I've seen.
He said "Genesis, what's that?" in a rather poor attempt to fool Khan after he had already seen the Genesis demo.
Kirk was head of Starfleet Operations after he was promoted to Admiral following the first five year mission and might have returned to that position after a second five year mission or immediately after the V'ger Incident. The TWoK script makes it look as if Kirk still holds the Chief of Operations position (he cuts Sulu's orders to take command of Excelsior in the script).
I would think the head of Starfleet Operations would be privy to information regarding Genesis.
Clearly he knew about it because when Carol Marcus asks "Why are you taking Genesis away from us?" he doesn't ask what Genesis is, he's merely shocked someone would try and take it.
And Dr. Marcus is not surprised that he would have access to the information, she even believes it's possible that he would give the order to take Genesis because she asks him if he did.
There's nothing in the movie that gives the impression that he doesn't know what Genesis is.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmmm...I'll have to watch it (yet) again.
The real thing that I'm suprised no one ever brings up is that Kirk was aware what had happened to Kahn's people and didint send anyone to help them.
What a bastard.
In TWOK, Chekov is whining about having creatures in his brain (sissy) and says "Sir...it was Kahn! He blames you..." Kirk: "I know what he blames me for!"
How the fuck did he know that unless he knew about the supernova (and it's not like starfleet should have somehow missed a star in their own space exploding!)? Also, Starfleet would've kept some kind of tabs on ol' Kannie.
way I see it, Kirk is the movie's real villain.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"way I see it, Kirk is the movie's real villain."
lol, comments like that could start nerd holy wars! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
A *planet* exploded, not a star. If it were an M-class world, odds are that casual scans might miss it. Ceti Alpha might be out in the sticks as far as the Federation was concerned, so it's not especially likely that anyone really noticed. It was MORE dumb that Reliant warped into the system to find one *less* planet floating around without mentioning it.
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or why the Reliant's scans didn't pick up that big honking piece of metal or the 50 human beings scouring about outside it.
Not to mention the way Kirk apparently secrectly exiled one of the biggest bad guys in Earth's history back in "Space Seed".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wouldnt there have been lots of obvious fresh debris if a whole planet had blown itself up within the past 20 or so years?
Besides the incredible amount of energy needed to actually make the planet's pieces escape the pull of gravity and not just collapse back into itself- resulting in a very fucked planet with about the same mass.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Wouldnt there have been lots of obvious fresh debris if a whole planet had blown itself up within the past 20 or so years?"
Sure. But they'd just seem to be asteroids. Remember Alderaan?
"Or why the Reliant's scans didn't pick up that big honking piece of metal or the 50 human beings scouring about outside it."
They did. They just couldn't tell what it was because of the storms on the planet. That's the whole reason they beamed down in the first place.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The eelish crew thing was a novel reference, not canon. It's just one way the author thought up to cover the notion that Khan's crew couldn't do EVERYTHING.
Mark
But nothing in the film quite rules it out, either. As long as most of Reliant's crew were on Ceti Alpha the film's dialogue still applies. The novel said there were ten of the engineering crew. Ten out of how many? Probably more than 50, given that the refit Enterprise has 500.
It's a bit of a stretch that Terrell wouldn't mention it (as Reverend mentioned), but Terrell was still under the eel's influence at the time. His purpose was to fool Kirk (and the audience), not give a full report.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: It was MORE dumb that Reliant warped into the system to find one *less* planet floating around without mentioning it.
Mark
That too was in the script, but either cut out of the film or never made it in to start with. (Does the SE have all the extra footage actually filmed?) The Reliant did pick up a discrepancy, but attributed it to innacurate probe data. They apparently had no record of Kirk leaving Khan there. Which was maybe dumb on the writers' part, to be sure. Does "Space Seed" mention anything about Kirk keeping it a secret?
Marian
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: 2.) "The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II"
On what do you base this? (Assuming it isn't something obvious, like a stardate I've never paid attention to.)
Oh, I remember the promotional video seen on TWoK, and it did have a stardate earlier than the movies events. If only I could find a screencap of it... That stardate was like throwing more wood into the fire, allow me to quote myself in an e-mail I wrote at the time:
quote:ST:TMP (SD 7411.4) (snipped) STII:TWOK (SD 8130.3) It's mentioned that Kirk marooned Khan & co. on Ceti Alpha V _15_ years earlier... counting from 2267 (SD 3141.9, 2267-10-09), that would put the "current" year on 2282... In fact, "Space Seed" was aired on 1967 and TWOK opened on 1982... and I don't think genetic supermen have any problems with simple math! A 1000 unit/yr system would have passed once through 0000.0 and then reached the 8000s again, in 15 years... and that would make sense with the earlier comment on the SD on the "Demonstration Presentation of Project Genesis" of 7130.4, one year earlier... (a 1 unit/dy system would have less than 14 years passed)
So, there you have it: SD 7130.4, recorded a year prior to the events in the movie.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Does "Space Seed" mention anything about Kirk keeping it a secret?
i think somebody points out to kirk that he doesnt hve the authority to put khan on trial or to take that planet, it probably follows kirk kept it secret..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Wouldnt there have been lots of obvious fresh debris if a whole planet had blown itself up within the past 20 or so years?"
Sure. But they'd just seem to be asteroids. Remember Alderaan?
Yes: more horribly bad science to think that a giant laser would instantly do anything visible and would cause the planet to explode into a zillion pieces. Think of escape velocity: all those chunks needed to reach that speed to be thrown clear from the planet's central mass. Alderan must have had a Naqueda core or it was a giant space pinata or something.
Generations did a good job showing the destruction from the supernova (when shown on Veridian III) as not instantanous (although the shockwave was there far too quickly, but I digress).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
We know that the video seen in TWOK was old. Kirk himself says that it was recorded a year ago. The question is whether or not the Kirk-narrated one in STIII was recorded around the same time (perhaps for official Starfleet use), or was it recoreded between TWOK and TSFS.
Regarding Kirk's knowledge of Genesis, the first time it comes up in the movie is when Carol tries to contact him about the Reliant's fake orders to take it away.
quote:Repeat... what's wrong? What's wrong?
CAROL ... taking Genesis away from us...
KIRK Taking Genesis? Who? Who is taking Genesis?
CAROL ... see you but can't hear. Did you... order...?
KIRK What order? Who's taking Genesis?
This is before any sort of emergency situation has arisen on the Enterprise. Kirk's reaction strongly implies that he already knows what Genesis is. He says "Who is taking Genesis", not "What is Genesis". The question now is whether he was specifically involved in Genesis in some way, or whether it was just another Top-Secret Project that he knew about as an Admiral in Starfleet.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
When they broke up, Carol took Kirk's collection of aincent Phil Collins recordings and...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But then, looking at the script of STIII, during the scene where Krudge is reviewing the stolen Genesis information, Kirk narrates:
quote:To fully understand the events on which I report, it is necessary to review the theoretical data on the Genesis Device...
Which supports Simon's idea that the whole thing was made between films.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Krudge?
--Jonah
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Anyhoo, somewhere in the depths of the Starships & Technology section, there's stuff about both the "Emissary" Saratoga and the Tsiolkovski intended to be new designs, but time/budget considerations put the kibosh on that. Given the crew, the sets, the dedication plaque, and all else, the Tsiolkovski (and indeed, the Oberth class in general) was intended to be a more TNG-y science vessel, and not the dinky ol' Grissom hauled out of storage at the last minute. That sort of thing happened annoyingly frequently on TNG. The Tsiolkovski, the Bozeman, the Crazy Horse, the Biko, the Pegasus... Hell, even the Hood in "Encounter at Farpoint" until they decided to use models instead of matte paintings.
--Jonah
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Also, what about the feed that Klingon chicky sends Kruge? As I recall, the snippets of video in that one are Kirk's video.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, certainly from dialogue in TWoK it seems Kirk knew very well what Genesis was, though pretending otherwise in front of Khan. The video in TSfS was in all likelihood recorded by Kirk after the confrontation with Khan, utilizing parts of the original presentation video. Since evidently Genesis had stopped being a secret at that point, Kirk had some explaining to do...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Also, what about the feed that Klingon chicky sends Kruge? As I recall, the snippets of video in that one are Kirk's video.
I think that is what Psyliam was mentioning.
And that very well could have been one of Kirks unseen "Captain's logs" and or it was sent out in some sort of distress beacon or log buoy left behind after the initial encounter with Khan in the event that Khan could not be stopped (for example).
That might also explain how Valkris was able to get that information from Kirk aboard the Enterprise to Kruge...
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Or it was a transmission from Kirk to Starfleet that Valkris intercepted.
--Jonah
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Who cares. She was really hot.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Trivia: She was supposed to be a Romulan in the early drafts.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Trivia: She was supposed to be a Romulan in the early drafts.
And where did you hear/read this?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Me: Who cares. She was really hot.
I stand by my opinion.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
That would kinda fit with the BoP supposed to be a Romulan ship. It could have been Valkris's ship and she handed it to Kruge...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It seems like the writers of the movies were always trying to stick Romulan connections in that never made it. Wasn't either Saavik or Valeris supposed to be half-Romulan at some point?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Who cares. She was really hot.
Very hot when that freighter was blown up.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: It seems like the writers of the movies were always trying to stick Romulan connections in that never made it. Wasn't either Saavik or Valeris supposed to be half-Romulan at some point?
Saavik was Half-Romulan in the script for TWoK.
Fortunately they got rid of that reference because it wouldn't have made a lot of sense unless Saavik was less then 19 years old and breezed through the Academy program given that "Balance of Terror" was only 19 years before "TWoK" and no Romulans and Vulcans had had contact before that.
I suppose it could be possible that one of Saavik's parents was a Romulan spy on Vulcan and revealed their true identity after the events of Balance of Terror, perhaps if he or she got caught.
Or a Vulcan freighter Captain near the Nuetral Zone got it on with a person who they thought was Vulcan but was actually Romulan and never said so until later.
Either way, the alternative of her just being Vulcan is better.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
OTOH, it would explain the terrible acting of the STIII Saavik.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or the gasping and crying in STII.
Or all Vulcans (except Dr. selar) are (for some reason) more emotional than their male counterparts (explaining Savik and T'Pol at least).
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And the STIV/STVI background Vulcans, who were all overexited crybabies.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
T'pau was pretty emotionless. Kinda wooden too, really. But between her and Selar, those two have like ten minutes of screen time. T'Pol, Saavik, oldvulcanambassadorchick, and anyone with more than a dozen lines tend to be pretty emotional, that's true.
Mark
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bond, James Bond:
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: It seems like the writers of the movies were always trying to stick Romulan connections in that never made it. Wasn't either Saavik or Valeris supposed to be half-Romulan at some point?
Saavik was Half-Romulan in the script for TWoK.
Fortunately they got rid of that reference because it wouldn't have made a lot of sense unless Saavik was less then 19 years old and breezed through the Academy program given that "Balance of Terror" was only 19 years before "TWoK" and no Romulans and Vulcans had had contact before that.
I suppose it could be possible that one of Saavik's parents was a Romulan spy on Vulcan and revealed their true identity after the events of Balance of Terror, perhaps if he or she got caught.
Or a Vulcan freighter Captain near the Nuetral Zone got it on with a person who they thought was Vulcan but was actually Romulan and never said so until later.
Either way, the alternative of her just being Vulcan is better.
i suggest you guys read "The Pandora Principle" by Carolyn Clowes.. its one of the 80s novels, designed to help bridge the gap between TMP and TWOK, and also give the backstory on Saavik.
although the novel isnt canon, i find it to be one of the better installments Pocket Books has to offer of their hundreds of shittier titles, this novel actually 'feels' like the movie Trek universe. many sources have abided by the story of Saavik's early life presented in this book, including two separate stories from rival comic publishers DC and Marvel.
btw, without spoilers, if you dont feel like reading, Saavik is the product of the rape of a captured Vulcan scientist by a Romulan soldier at an abandoned colony. (this occurred before Balance of Terror) Spock helped to educate saavik in the vulcan way of life before she became a ward of boarding schools and the Academy. the book occurs when she is a freshman, and is the point when Nogurafinally weasels Kirk off the bridge and into the desk position he holds at the openng of TWOK
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Mike XLVII: an Oberth upper hull with no pylons or additions would be a Darwin-class scout from the SotSF/Recognition Chart milieu..
Didn't we work out in a thread from Flare past that the first three shillohettes on that chart are the Enterprise-ringship broken into three sections to make three new ships.
I think the Ariadne was the 'ring' part. Lombardy? the 'connecting neck/stick' and the first one the 'forward habitable section'.
the three ships that looked like a broken down ring ship were the Leonardo, Ariadne and the Frobisher. i want to see an action sequence with those three ships as models forming up into a ship Voltron style.
in order to lessen your confusion the artists used a markedly different picture to represent the Darwin, gave it a different name and placed it on a separate section of the chart. perhaps i should do an article.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"T'pau was pretty emotionless. Kinda wooden too, really."
That, and she didn't know the difference between "thee" and "thou".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And she was a million years old.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: But between her and Selar, those two have like ten minutes of screen time. T'Pol, Saavik, oldvulcanambassadorchick, and anyone with more than a dozen lines tend to be pretty emotional, that's true.
Of course, women on TNG and Enterprise tend to study acting at the "Calculon School for ACTING!!!"
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Mike XLVII:
i suggest you guys read "The Pandora Principle" by Carolyn Clowes.. its one of the 80s novels, designed to help bridge the gap between TMP and TWOK, and also give the backstory on Saavik.
although the novel isnt canon, i find it to be one of the better installments Pocket Books has to offer of their hundreds of shittier titles, this novel actually 'feels' like the movie Trek universe. many sources have abided by the story of Saavik's early life presented in this book, including two separate stories from rival comic publishers DC and Marvel.
btw, without spoilers, if you dont feel like reading, Saavik is the product of the rape of a captured Vulcan scientist by a Romulan soldier at an abandoned colony. (this occurred before Balance of Terror) Spock helped to educate saavik in the vulcan way of life before she became a ward of boarding schools and the Academy. the book occurs when she is a freshman, and is the point when Nogurafinally weasels Kirk off the bridge and into the desk position he holds at the openng of TWOK [/QUOTE]
Interesting. Thanks for the tip.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
LOL Calculon aka Thespobot 2000. Heheheheh
"Art thee humaan or art theee wolcaan!?!"
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: And she was a million years old.
Actually, she (Celia Lovsky) was probably 68 when Amok Time was filmed, being that she was born in 1897 (!). She was Austrian, which explains the accent. She appreared in a lot of TV series, and also had parts in Soylent Green (as the Exchange Leader), "The Last Time I Saw Paris" (with Liz Taylor), etc.
Oddly enough, she was at one time married to Peter Lorre!
Oh, and to put this back on topic, she never appeared in "Emmisary". Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
They're making our food out of people!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by deadcujo: They're making our food out of people!
[ChuckHeston]"Soylent Green is people!!!" [/ChuckHeston]
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Back to the topic...
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Crew counts: Lantree - 26 Br!ttain - 34
My general theory is that Mirandas these days take only about 20 people to run the thing. Older ships, or ships on non-frontline missions, are heavily automated and have a selection of mission specialists in addition to the basic crew: a half dozen cargo specialists on the Lantree, or a bunch of scientists on the Br!ttain.
Saratoga, as a specialized ship (or whatever those pods are for) would probably be carrying that same core crew, plus whatever specialists, and then for whatever reason their families. Say, for example, that Saratoga could've been a surveyor on a long-term non-combat mission through mostly explored or Federeation space. Given that we saw only 3-4 escape pods leave the ship (up to ~20 people each, no?), I'm thinking her total crew including civvies would be no more than 100.
Various "combat Mirandas" seen during the war (with or without the questionable addition of impulse engines aft) would likely have no more than 50 aboard, given the probable level of automation. Slap a tactical and damage control crew in there, and you'll have a conteporary of the Defiant. I'm most convinced of that shot in "SoA" with Defiant, Sitak and Majestic flying in formation - just doesn't seem right that the two other ships would still have 200+ people aboard.
Mark
I was able to finally see Emissary again last night and I was paying particular attention to the whole Saratoga scene. My first observation is that there was a whole helluva lot of civilians on that ship. Sisko easily could have tripped over 20 of them on the deck he was looking for Jennifer on! I can't imagine that the civilian to SF ratio on that ship is in favor of the civilians, then again...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I was under the impression that Sisko and his tac officer were heading to the crew or family areas, and even more likely to the designated shelters (cf. "Night Terrors"). During alert conditions, assuming the families or civvie specialist crews weren't part of the damage control teams, they oughta be huddled in separate areas and staying out of the way. Indeed, if the civilians were trained for combat, they probably wouldn't need help to get to the escape pods as Sisko suggested.
Sisko was likely tripping over them because the order to evacuate had been given, and everyone was heading to the escape pods - we see so many of them because that's all there were aboard, and they were all sticking together. Now, if they had been going through engineering and tons of civvies were running by, THEN I'd be suspicious.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Civillians might have been clustered into a common area (wit better SIF and shielding), explaining why they were all together, why Jake and Jennifr were in the same room and why the windows buckled out but didint break.
This common area might be cloe to the escape pods as well.
By the way.....
Soylant Lovsky is made of PEOPLE!!!! PEOPLE!!!! Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, if the common area is close to the escape pods, then it's close to the shuttlebays, as that's were the pods were launched from.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Works for me: they knew the Borg were baaaad news but (I guess) didint have time to drop off the civvies someplace safe before intercepting the cube.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Civillians might have been clustered into a common area (wit better SIF and shielding), explaining why they were all together, why Jake and Jennifr were in the same room and why the windows buckled out but didint break.
Soylant Lovsky is made of PEOPLE!!!! PEOPLE!!!!
LOL!
The thing is - they don't SEEM to be windows... we've never seen floor to ceiling windows on ANY starship - only that room on the Starbase where Rand is watching the Enterprise returning in ST:III. Not even Ten-Foward has huge windows like that.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well its always possible, and maybe even obvious, that the Miranda was not intended to be used/made/modified until the last minute and therefore the window scheme was never intended for that model of ship...
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Really... didn't the room where Decker was showing off past Enterprises to the Probe have large windows? Or the one where Kirk and Bones are having a discussion about [and kinda with] Spock about Kolinhar? Or do I just have a bad memory.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
that was the rec deck... one scene with the rec deck was intended to have some forced perspective nacelles matted into the background of the upper level windows to give the impression of being in the trailing edge of the saucer
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: The thing is - they don't SEEM to be windows... we've never seen floor to ceiling windows on ANY starship - only that room on the Starbase where Rand is watching the Enterprise returning in ST:III. Not even Ten-Foward has huge windows like that.
Weeellll...the interior windows are not scaled correctly to the much larger saucer section windows. The Ten Forward interior windows are really in scale with the smaller windows on the Galaxy's secondary hull.
So, if the set's windows were in scale with the studio model, they would indeed be "floor to ceiling". All those windows on the Galaxy's saucer are actually slightly taller than the Rec-Deck windows on the Connie Refit.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Mike XLVII: that was the rec deck... one scene with the rec deck was intended to have some forced perspective nacelles matted into the background of the upper level windows to give the impression of being in the trailing edge of the saucer
I don't have the images any more, but I once captured from frames from TMP wherein you actually CAN see the nacelle outside the Rec Deck windows in the big crew scene in TMP. It wasn't forced perpective per se, just a big painting outside the set.
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