Well folks, this is it. Happy tech reviews, 'cuz it's the last one of the season!
10 bonus points to whoever can come up with the best excuse for the MIDAS array to be there.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Elves built it and it's still a technological curiosity in the 24th century.
(I haven't seen the episode)
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
How many bonus points for the one who can explain the Nazi-Reman? Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
A wizard did it.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Something to do with Daniels, I bet. Does he bring Archer to the 24th century?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The NX-01 goes back to Earth courtesy of a Xindi-Aquatic ship. Turns out they're in WW2 San Francisco when they can't contact anyone and send a shuttlepod down. They assumed Archer was dead for the weapon blew up before they could beam him off. He ends up in a Nazi camp, badly burned, with the Nazi Reman. I only have 3 words:
What. The. Fuck?!
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I think T'Pol misread the date. I'm *sure* she said 2152 when it should have been 2153. Either way, it's Valentine's day...Feb 14th. And T'Pol is 65 years young in the episode!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
KEY POINTS:
- Sphere 41 is the Spherebuilders primary sphere
- Archer and Daniels visit 7yrs in the future where we see Archer signing of the Federation Charter; along with the Andorians, Vulcans and Tellarites.
- The orbital station (aka Midas) is an unarmed research post with a crew of 30-40. It was called "Yosemite 3".
- Andorians (Shran) track Degras ship through the vortex and protect Archer and Co. as they board the weapon.
- Degras ship has 18 aboard it (8 primates, 3 arborials and 7 humans)
- The spehere network is destroyed
- Dolum is killed by Archer.
- Starlog: Feb 13, 2152 (2154)
- T'Pol is 65 years old (born 2089 - based on the fact that is should be 2154). Vulcans consider the knowledge of their age intimate - or at least the females do, considering Sarek didn't mind sharing it.
- Aquatics vessel hauls Enterprise home in its belly, it takes less than a day.
- Shuttlepod is greeted by 3 Mustangs.
- Final shot of Nazi Reman...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hmm...so using my Holmes-like deducing: My guess is the Enterprise-way around the never seeing a Romulan in the Earth-Romulan War, just keeping the timeline somewhat intact is by using the Remans in all face-to-face combat...
It also explains why no Earth vessels were at Earth protecting it when the weapon arrived.
I hope this doesnt all tie back somehow to the alternate-Enterprise from a couple episodes back fucking with things...
Posted by NeghVar (Member # 62) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: KEY POINTS: - Shuttlepod is greeted by 3 Nazi WWII era aircraft.
The shuttlepod was greeted by 3 P51 Mustangs...
I too am in the WTF crowd.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I had to listen to Enterprise through the snow on the screen...yes, I live in 1954 and still watch broadcast tv whilst my child holds the antenna. Anyway, I saw three planes and then heard German and saw a swastika....
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Actually, the date should be 2154...
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
The Nazi alien didn't look like a Reman to me. He looked more like a Drakh from Babylon 5, with blue skin.
Either way, I'm now totally confused.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Did I read correctly, seven years into the future, Captain Archer signs the Federation Charter?
For those keeping track, this is a continuity error - how bad I'll leave to you. The TNG episode "Outcasts" stated Charter Day was in 2161. If we follow the chronology of this episode, this alters the date of the Charter Day to 2159 or 2160 which in itself contradicts the official chronology of Mike Okuda which states the Romulan War was fought in those years.
Oh my, oh my! Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
[Edit:] ^^^^ 2154 + 7 = 2161. Maybe they were just a little vague. I guess 2161 still works. My fear was that they did the Federation foundation at the end of the seven-year-run (if they get seven years) which would indeed have placed it at the wrong spot on our timeline.
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: KEY POINTS:
- Archer and Daniels visit 7yrs in the future where we see Archer signing of the Federation Charter; along with the Andorians, Vulcans and Tellarites.
Was the Alpha-Centauri-story ever made canon? All we know is that AC is just an earth colony (even though one of the early Enterprise episodes mentiones Alpha Centauri as being uninhabitated). And if that is correct, why wasn't Mars the sixth founding member? If I remember correctly, Voyager mentioned them becoming independent before 2150. Just a tought. I simply don't like the idea that a small colony could have as much influence as any of the other worlds.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: Did I read correctly, seven years into the future, Captain Archer signs the Federation Charter?
For those keeping track, this is a continuity error - how bad I'll leave to you. The TNG episode "Outcasts" stated Charter Day was in 2161. If we follow the chronology of this episode, this alters the date of the Charter Day to 2159 or 2160 which in itself contradicts the official chronology of Mike Okuda which states the Romulan War was fought in those years.
Oh my, oh my!
No...its supposed to be 2154 (T'pol misspoke)...as stated above. Add 7, and youse got 2161. Its all good, my brotha.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, at least Earth being somehow altered by Remans/Drakh/Space vampires/whatever, explains why the Intrepid and Iceland never showed up to kick ass.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Its probably all to do with those pesky Sphere builders. With all the anomalies they created around the weapon when it went in a vortex, they could have easily fucked it up so that it went back to the '40s. Of course, that doesn't explain the alien Nazi dude. Maybe the Temporal Cold War has gone back a century? If the Nazi guy is supposed to be a Reman, that could reinforce the idea that Future Guy is Romulan...
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Chalk me up in the WTF crowd, though I am intrigued...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Hmm...so using my Holmes-like deducing: My guess is the Enterprise-way around the never seeing a Romulan in the Earth-Romulan War, just keeping the timeline somewhat intact is by using the Remans in all face-to-face combat...
Let us hope not, as Nemesis seemed quite clear on the point that the Feds knew next-to-nothing about the Remans; even their appearance was a mystery.
Additionally, there is Spock's original line from "Balance of Terror" (TOS):
"As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think we can safely disregard that whole line at this point.
Even ships with a lower level of tech than NX-01 have visual ship-to-ship communications.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Maybe the ROMULANS were the ones without ship-to-ship visual communication ... er, I don't know why but ... maybe! Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Or maybe they just didn't want to have visual comms?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I always thought that, when Spock said "ally", he was referring both to Earth's allies and the Romulans' allies. So, no-one on Earth's side saw anyone from the Romulans' side, even if the people in question weren't actually human or Romulan.
Posted by StarCruiser (Member # 979) on :
It's done - no more, fin�...
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Not only are they in the 1940s, but the master race has a Reman... wierd wierd.. wierd... Is season 4 going to be LOST IN SPACE?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I can't wait for season 4. Where are Cryo-Satlelites when I need them
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I HAVE JUST HAD AN EPIPHANY.
Maybe.
quote:
"As you may recall, this conflict was fought, by standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication..."
Given two centuries of historical perspective, one might see this as an apt description of WW2-era combat, no?
Just how creative *are* the thinkers behind the fourth season?
-MMoM Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
Wow. That would be interesting... Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Here's the interesting thing, I can think of two easy scenarios.
a) time travel b) alternate reality
a) Enterpise might have been warped by blowing up the sphere, it also explains why both Enterprise and Archer were in "olde" land. The difficulty lies in explaining why Reed and Sato were shifted in time too considering they were away from both Enterprise and the weapon. The alien might just be (yet another) player in the temporal cold war.
b) Blowing up the sphere had unintended consequences, somehow affecting everything.
c) I suppose there's also the possbility of conspiracy theories. i.e. The Suliban wanted to get Archer out of the way dealing with the Xindii to do something weird to Earth, the Xindii were behind it all, who knows.
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: The Nazi alien didn't look like a Reman to me. He looked more like a Drakh from Babylon 5, with blue skin.
Either way, I'm now totally confused.
Well. Admiral Thrawn was of the blue skin and red eye persuation Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
Next season Archer should wake up in the German Hospital, look in the mirror and see that he's really someone else...
A friend and I were orginally thinking that somehow someone has gone back to change time and that Archer and Enterprise have arrived in a currant time/alternate Earth, one still fighting WW2. But the more I think about it the less likely this seems since technology would have advanced somewhat in the several hundred years of war.
Whatever it is, I expect that they have to live with it for several episodes before everything is fixed since B&B said they were going to use short story arches in the fourth season.
Despite not really explaining why the Intrepid and Iceland weren't there, I sort of glad they didn't since I doubt they would have faired well against the Reptilians. Even Shran's ship was beaten up pretty badly from the fight.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...The Suliban wanted to get Archer out of the way dealing with the Xindii to do something weird to Earth..."
And the producers say: "'Suliban'? Who are they?"
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Are there pictures of these WW 2 era airplanes on the internet, yet?
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
guys, when Enterprise arrived back to Earth after riding inside Aquatic Ship and the Aquatic went back.
Did you notice that Degra's and Shran's Ships are not visible anywhere upon Enterprise's arrival. They were no where to be seen in the last few minutes after explosions.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Umm...they arrived back to Enterprise on Degras ship...it likely went on its merry way as Enterprise hitched a ride on the Aquatics ship. That explains the absense of Degras ship. Shran could have easily beeen back on his way to Andor and may return when he figures out things are out of place...
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Well, that ending was certainly weird...
Like everybody else, I've been trying to figure out exactly what's going on with the ending. I've got several wacky crazy nutty theories at this time:
Wacky Crazy Nutty Theory #1
They didn't go back in time. They are still in the 22nd Century. Why is everything so messed up, then? Archer and Co. just seriously messed with the timeline. Maybe.
Daniels' timeline thus far appears to be the "correct" one. Formation of the Federation and whatnot. In Daniels' timeline, the Delphic Expanse continues to grow, the Sphere-Builders invade in the 26th Century, and are defeated by the Federation.
Except that Archer and Co. destroyed the Spheres and eliminated the Delphic Expanse. Which means that, amongst other things, that history has just been altered for everybody who comes afterwards. Daniels, Future Guy, even the Sphere-Builders. Which means that the Temporal Cold War just totally changed, if it even exists now. Which means the past has more than likely been altered as well.
Also, there has apparantly been no time travel. The Xindi-Aquatic vessel (from the 22nd Century) dropped Enterprise off in Sol System, and no wacky anomalies happened between then and Earth. Mr. Mayweather has not commented on the changed positions of stars, as he so readily did in "E2" when time travel took place.
There are two problems with this theory, though. First, we "know" that the Delphic Expanse does not exist in the future. Otherwise, you'd think Kirk, Picard, etc. would have mentioned it, as the Delphic Expanse would be bigger later on. Second, it doesn't account for Archer's appearance on Nazi Reman Earth, or why nobody from Enterprise has been affected by the changes in the timeline.
Wacky Crazy Nutty Theory #2
This one's much shorter.
They did time travel. But nobody noticed it. This begs several questions, though.
Why did nobody notice it? If "E2" is any indication, Mayweather would notice. Heck, he should have noticed when flying that low over San Francisco. He and Reed apparantly saw enough of Starfleet Command that they were going to land there until shot at.
And what of the Xindi-Aquatic vessel? Is it in the 22nd Century or 20th Century?
Wacky Crazy Nutty Theory #3
Enterprise is in the 22nd Century, Archer is in the 20th. Quite possible. But that doesn't solve the above problems any.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Could be fractures in the timeline like that one Voyager episode "Shattered".
Perhaps because the Delphic Expanse was innundated with whatever the Spherebuilders were making out of it and the weapon was engulfed by spherebuilder magic last episode - both the weapon and the Expanse were somehow immune to timechanges and/or are operating independant to 'normal time'.
Say, like the Expanse was unaffected or affected opposite to the rest of the universe as a result of the Spherebuilders final assault as well as the collapse of the network, the composition of the Expanse combined with 'the weapon' - which seems to essentially be a 'time bomb', exploded.
This also brings up the point about 'where were the Earth ships?'. You would think that Earth would have been effectively fortified, at least defended in the way we saw in last seasons finale. Yes, we did see an orbital station, but conveniently no one responded to the hails. Earth may have already been affected before the Xindi even showed up.
As far as it still being the 22ndC, it is rather odd that 20thC aircraft were still roaming the skies. WWII was all about great advances in technology...and with it lasting an additional 200 or so years, it somehow seems wrong that the advance in aircraft design remained stagnent.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Downright implausible, even.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I think I'm going to vote for Krenim's Wacky Theory #2. Given the rather instantaneous nature of time travel that we've seen on the show so far -- e.g. walking from one room to another and finding yourself in a different time -- it's possible that things were changed and nobody noticed because they were too busy thinking about getting home. Contrast that with E^2, where they immediately needed to check their position after emerging from the wormhole.
Dan's Crazy Wacky Nutty Theory
When the spheres were eliminated, they ceased to exist in the timeline, a la "Twilight". Thus, the last 1,000 years of interstellar history have been changed. However, that might only explain the presence of the Nazi alien, but not much else. It certainly wouldn't explain the major similarities -- that would have to be almost purely coincidental -- between the two time periods (i.e. "our" 20th century and the alternate 22nd century/WWII-like era).
I think I'd just much rather believe that the NX-01 got thrown back in time to the 20th century. But that doesn't explain the presence of the alien. Argh!
So does that mean that they got thrown back to the 20th century AND altered history? *sigh* I give up.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I haven't seen the ep yet, but it very much reminds me of Sliders...
It also occurs to me that this could somehow figure into the unusually large number (i.e. more than 0) of Earth clones from TOS, but I'm not sure how.
Or we've got our first Enterprise mirror universe ep...
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I'd say that the explosion of the weapon and the collapse of the spheres in the Delphic Expanse caused temporal changes. When the network collapsed, I saw the aliens that were walking into walls and disrupting the energy systems on NX-01 dissipate and scream into agony when the networked caved in. An energy feedback might have overloaded the technology and computers that manage their timetravel abilities and cause a cascade failure which resulted into why the fucking hell a Blue Reman is wearing a Nazi uniform and why WWII planes are flying over 22nd Century San Francisco... and it is 22nd Century SF I saw.
I'm sorry but is it me or is it Valentine's Day when the episode took place?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
T'Pol says February 14 2152 . . . this is clearly an error, since that would place the episode at the end of season one.
We'd already experienced April of 2153 toward the end of the second season, so this must've been 2154. 2154 + 7 = 2161.
I know this particular sub-topic's a couple of pages old, but it was bugging me. :-)
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Okay.. that certainly was unexpected.
I'll skip the boring tech, and go right to the WW2 thing.
- Where there really fighter planes on hot standby above American cities during WW2?
- The alien dude seems to be the superior officer (see here).
- I doubt he's actually a Reman. He doesn't really look like any familiar species.
So.. WTF happened?
Possibility 1: Archer and his crew were transported to the 20th century by Nazi-Aliens. These Nazi-Aliens have the same powers as Daniels (instant timetravel). They are a player in the Temporal War, and probably want to affect the outcome of WW2.
Problems: - Aliens in the SS.. He didn't look very Aryan to me. And no-one seemed to be bothered by a big blue alien walking around. What's going on here? - Why the Enterprise? Perhaps the Enterprise was transported by Daniels, while ARcher was transported by Nazi-Aliens.
Ehm.. I have to go now.. �'ll be back soon.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Anyone know what the woman whispered to the man prior to the Alien Nazi showing up? My German's a little rusty, as I don't understand a single word of it.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Have screencaps of this bad boy been posted anywhere yet?
Mark
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
quote:He and Reed apparantly saw enough of Starfleet Command that they were going to land there until shot at.
It was Mayweather and TUCKER!
Either your memory is going or you still can't tell who's who on the ship.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Here are some captures of the pretty planes: clicky clicky clicky Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: Wacky Crazy Nutty Theory #1
They didn't go back in time. They are still in the 22nd Century. Why is everything so messed up, then? Archer and Co. just seriously messed with the timeline. Maybe.
Daniels' timeline thus far appears to be the "correct" one. Formation of the Federation and whatnot. In Daniels' timeline, the Delphic Expanse continues to grow, the Sphere-Builders invade in the 26th Century, and are defeated by the Federation.
Except that Archer and Co. destroyed the Spheres and eliminated the Delphic Expanse. Which means that, amongst other things, that history has just been altered for everybody who comes afterwards.
I'm leaning towards the alternate history thing as well. Is it possible that Daniels was actually right for once? Maybe if Reed had been lost on the weapon, Archer might have screwed up the peace process with the Xindi, leading them to try another attack on Earth in the past. (i.e. Carpenter Street) Except that, the attempt fails in someway leading to "our" timeline.
With Archer out of the picture, the peace process goes smoothly, the Xindi never attack Earth in the past, never causing "our" timeline.
*Irony alert* Perhaps the attack on Earth in the past is what causes mankind to retailiate on the Xindi, wiping them out and leaving no trace of them in TNG/DS9, etc. Thus, the Xindi really were correct, we will destroy their world in the future.
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
It fits, but its too far fetched. I think Daniels is up to something here. I think that was one of the aliens taking part of the temporal cold war, and its the NX-01's job to stop them (for some reason).
This is probably the beggining of a medium-sized Temporal cold war arc.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Umm...they arrived back to Enterprise on Degras ship...it likely went on its merry way as Enterprise hitched a ride on the Aquatics ship. That explains the absense of Degras ship. Shran could have easily beeen back on his way to Andor and may return when he figures out things are out of place...
You are right... heh.. I posted this late last night.. and I reviewed the show again today.. yeah they were to rendezvous with Enterprise after destroying the weapon. now I wonder why Aquatics didn't find out they were not in right time or timeline.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
enjoy it is in PNG and about 230kb and hope it help determine if it is Reman or not.. I doubt it is Reman at all.
Speaking of Nazi Alien, he may be one of the character from DOOM or Quake Game eh.. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmmm perobably NOT a Reman then. Damn. We really dont need yet another evil alien race we've never seen before fucking around with Earth's past.
SHit was bad enough in Time's arrow and no one saw those aliens as aliens.
Mabye they'll be some sort of saving grace here as well..... I hope.
[ May 27, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
You really should start to watch other TV shows. That Nazi Alien obviously is the Master.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
THe Master?!? If you refer to Dr. Who's Master, he was'nt a blue vampire.
I dont know what else you could be referring to though.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
The Master was the arch-villain in Season 1 of Buffy. Of course, Nazi Reman/Vampire doesn't have punch mouth, so it can't be him either. Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Are people seriously thinking that's a Reman?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
For lack of a better description and better information, yes. Once they get a better look, they'll understand it's not a Reman.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Looks like one to me, just on a TV makeup budget rather than that of a feature film.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
To quote my wife: "Bastards!"
I'm convinced they're in the 1940's, but is the aquatic vessel stuck there too? I doubt it, since whoever pushed the Enterprise through time could probably do it just after they emerged from the docking bay.
So I guess the ship doesn't get a new paintjob for the fourth season yet.
B.J.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by newark: Are there pictures of these WW 2 era airplanes on the internet, yet?
Yes, look here.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
BTW, if the expanse doesn't exist anymore, what about that 26th Century battle Daniels showed Archer? I was expecting to see the expanse's expansion being contained, not it disappearing altogether.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
guess the timeline has been altered
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm a little confused about the lack of communication from Earth in this episode. Sure they were jammed, but after the weapon was destroyed shouldn't Reed and company at least made contact? Instead, they hightailed it back to the Expanse to rendevous with Enterprise. Huh?
Also, with the exception of Yosemite Station there was no indication of any sort of Earth response. In "The Expanse", when Enterprise dropped out of warp with Klingons on her tail, three Starfleet ships were there within seconds. Here, the encounter lasts quite some time, and there is NO response whatsoever. Only Shran's out of the blue (no pun intended) appearance was there.
Methinks that the writers wanted to use Forrest, but perhaps due to production scheduling they ended up with Shran instead. I'd have loved to see a pre-finished NX-02 and some of the other ships in a big finale fight, but for whatever reason there wasn't one. Maybe at least some of it will be explained next season.
All in all though, a satisfying if somewhat confusing episode, especially towards the end. Great stuff on many levels though, and as a whole it's more than worthwhile entertainment.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
A couple of things I noted:
The Yosemite-3 station seems to be the third successive station, rather than one of three current ones. Reed says "they destroyed Yosemite Station" and Mayweather says "it's not just Yosemite". This seems to imply that there was only one current Yosemite.
Also, Daniels can't pronounce "integral". He said "intregal".
And to whoever asked about what the German woman whispered: I don't think we were meant to know. Some other voice got louder right at that moment and drowned her out.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I've looked at the last scenes again.
- Mayweather says he's 'not getting anything' from any of the orbital stations. This might imply that they are still there, but not responding.
- In the shuttle, Mayweather says 'it looks normal to me'. You'd think someone would recognize the differences between 1940s and 2150s San Fransisco. It also seems like the landing pad Tucker refers to is actually there. OTOH, the shuttle's sensors apparently can't differentiate P-51 Mustangs from a Starfleet vessel.
So it might very well still be the 22nd century, alhough it makes very little sense.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
One would think they would have checked things out with their 'See things at steet-level' sensor before sending a shuttle into an unknown situation
Another thought: What if the planes were brought into the future rather than Enterprise being in the past. It doesn't explain the lack of responce from Starfleet, but it would explain why no one noticed their displacement in time
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Pretty crappy medical tech if they're really in the 22nd century.
Mabye earth was tampered with prior to the Sphere showing/blowing up- explaining why the Intrepid and "Iceland" never made the scene.
No ideas why the Yosemete Station would still be there though.....you'd think they could've called over to Jupiter Station if starfleet did'nt respond.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Count me in into WTF crowd as well... I gotta get me an aspirin of something.
One other observation: what is this? It was a while since I've seen Nemesis, but it looks to me like that mini-transporter thingy. Or cortical stimulator from Voyager.
I definetly gotta lie down... Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
I think that's the little bomb Archer put on the guy before he went kaboom.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: Count me in into WTF crowd as well... I gotta get me an aspirin of something.
One other observation: what is this? It was a while since I've seen Nemesis, but it looks to me like that mini-transporter thingy. Or cortical stimulator from Voyager.
I definetly gotta lie down...
The mini-transporter wasn't even as big as a comm-badge. It was gray. And the lights were covered by a... cover. But I think I've seen that thing before. Incredible galore of information, I know. Maybe I can find an image of the transport device.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: Count me in into WTF crowd as well... I gotta get me an aspirin of something.
One other observation: what is this? It was a while since I've seen Nemesis, but it looks to me like that mini-transporter thingy. Or cortical stimulator from Voyager.
I definetly gotta lie down...
That's explosive device that Reed gave to Archer on his way out of the SuperWeapon.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: One would think they would have checked things out with their 'See things at steet-level' sensor before sending a shuttle into an unknown situation
Or that Mayweather and Trip might've noticed little details like no Starfleet HQ, different skyline, and such.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
hmm no one noticed this dialog:
MAYWEATHER ( over com ): Bridge to T'Pol. Go ahead. A vortex just opened. It's Degra's ship. ( garbled transmission ) This is Enterprise. Please repeat. ( garbled transmission ) Captain, did you stop the weapon? ( garbled transmission ) Captain? Set an intercept course. It's done. Done? Captain Archer destroyed the weapon. Where is he? Is he okay? Captain didn't make it, Trip. What do you mean he didn't make it? The weapon exploded before he could transport to Degra's ship.
==== so what's up with garbled transmission? (yeah this is from closed captioning log at http://worf.dyndns.org/Enterprise/ )
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: No ideas why the Yosemete Station would still be there though.....you'd think they could've called over to Jupiter Station if starfleet did'nt respond.
Well they did try to contact the Lunar I Colony...
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
So, we will find out in first episode of Season 4!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
That is typically how that works at those pesky season finale cliffhangers....
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
OK, so this mini-bomb apparently is a completely new one blinking and flashing thingie.
"I mean, down here there are literally hundreds and thousands of blinking, beeping, and flashing lights, blinking and beeping and flashing - they're flashing and they're beeping. I can't stand it anymore!" Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I'm not really familiar with the Geography and landmark regions of San Francisco, but doesn't that look a bit underdeveloped, even on 21st Century terms, for the Bay Area?
I think it's a good representation of the bay area. Even today, much of our lower left view of the area near the bridge in the photo isn't developed. It's all hilly and stuff, and there's not much to do with it.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Factoring in pi and the coefficient of x, it is approximately...
HUGE!
( )
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Its about 20 Franks long. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
lol.
Well, I would say it is at least 8x longer than the Enterprise...which would put it up around 1800m.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Boult: What do you mean "what's up" with the transmission? They were talking to Degra's ship, but there was either interference or the communications system was broken. I think the latter is most likely, considering everything that had just happened to the Enterprise. Besides, I think it was pretty much just a plot device to make the news of Archer's "death" a face-to-face thing.
Now, regarding the bomb that Archer stuck to the Xindi... Why did he hold on to one? He thought all the Xindi on the sphere were dead (which they were; the other one beamed over from the ship). Wouldn't he have wanted to make sure to explode the weapon as thoroughly as possible?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I think they're in 1940s, but that the temporal anomaly doesn't extend that far into orbit.
I'm leaning toward an idea similar to ST:First Contact. The Enterprise-E chased the Borg sphere through a temporal vortex to the "past." Before they entered the vortex they saw a "present" Earth assimilated.
Perhaps this is the same. Xindi Aquatic ship drops Enterprise off in the "present." However, humanity never survived WWII, therefore no orbital satellites, Lunar colonies or anyone to talk to.
The shuttle passes through a temporal vortex on the way to San Fransicso. It's now in the "past" along with Archer.
The telling thing will be if the Shuttlepod will be able to contact Enterprise.
I don't think there in the "present." The tech level is too far off. What would keep Earth at mid 20th century tech level for so long? P-51s over San Fransicso and Nazis on the battlefront with no electricity (the medic used a kerosene lantern to shine on Archer).
Herb
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
However Trip and Travis did seem to see Starfleet Headquarters right before being attacked by the three P-51s. And you still haven't explained (or try to) the alien Nazi.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Perhaps they did see everything intact off-screen and then it vanished. There's definitely no Starfleet Headquarters or the other buildings we've previously seen near the bridge (there should be buildings near the bridge on our left).
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Is command near the bridge in the 22nd century?
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
It was directly next to the bridge in the Kirk movies, but I assume it's not the same one.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Nevermind about the off-screen/vanishing act; I just watched that part again and they say it looks normal even after the aerial view. :/
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: However Trip and Travis did seem to see Starfleet Headquarters right before being attacked by the three P-51s. And you still haven't explained (or try to) the alien Nazi.
Obviously, the nazis were always led by blue vampire-aliens.
Nothing's wrong with the timeline at all.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
As to the Bay Area in that screenshot, here're the nits to pick:
1. The hills to the lower left aren't underdeveloped. That's all the Marin headlands. It was undeveloped then, and likely to remain so, as it's a big park area.
2. Since the hills are all green, and that usually only happens early in the year, it's probably sometime between January and March.
3. Enterprise Starfleet HQ as seen in the other screen shot is located at Fort Baker, the cove just showing down-left of the shuttlepod's left wing.
4. The Presido at the right of the bridge appears to be well forested, maybe too much so for the 1940s, but I can't say for sure.
5. The water texture makes the whole think look like it's a 1/100th scale model. Fake-o-rama.
6. San Francisco used to have a lot more piers than it does now. If this were OUR 1940s you'd see lots of piers and ships along the edge of the city at the top right.
These FX guys need me as a SFHQ consultant. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Alright, I caught it again on Fox tonight, and now that I can actually *view* it as well as hear it I have a couple more comments?
Isn't the deflector pulse they used to destroy the sphere similiar to what the Enterprise-D used on the Borg?
Is it me or are Andorians like, really overdramatic...
I dunno about the Enterprise itself, but Archer is definately in the 1940s...
[ May 28, 2004, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Since the hills are all green, and that usually only happens early in the year, it's probably sometime between January and March."
Yeah. February.
"...Archer is definately in the 1940s."
"Definitely". And he's in some place that looks like the 1940s. So, unless you've read the script from next season's premiere...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"...Archer is definately in the 1940s."
"Definitely". And he's in some place that looks like the 1940s. So, unless you've read the script from next season's premiere...
So instead of hacking on everyone elses theories, lets hear yours....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: 2. Since the hills are all green, and that usually only happens early in the year, it's probably sometime between January and March.
3. Enterprise Starfleet HQ as seen in the other screen shot is located at Fort Baker, the cove just showing down-left of the shuttlepod's left wing.
I was there last August and everything was lush and green (probably watered, but so what).
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Regarding whether the city looks like 1940's San Francisco or not:
"- In the shuttle, Mayweather says 'it looks normal to me'. You'd think someone would recognize the differences between 1940s and 2150s San Fransisco. It also seems like the landing pad Tucker refers to is actually there. OTOH, the shuttle's sensors apparently can't differentiate P-51 Mustangs from a Starfleet vessel."
In ST-IV - [the search for cetaceans], Sule, who was a native of San Francisco, states that 1980's SF doesn't look "really all that different". And that would also be over a gap of over two centuries, nich wahr? So we can assume that two non-Friscans could be easily confused as to whether or not the city looks 'normal' - as seen through wispy cloud cover from a few miles up.
QED: both Archer and the NX-01 are back in the 1940's _______________________________________
Regarding the cause of the time travel/displacement:
The vortex travel has been bothering me for some time. If it works so well - and so f**king fast, why aren't Starfleet ships of the 23rd and 24th century using such technology?
One 'working hypothesis' I'm playing with is that the technology works hand-in-tentacle with the sphere distortions (and is a tech gift from the Guardians). With the sphere's out of commission, the calibration may no longer work - ever again. Which also means that that Aquatic ship is lost in time. After all, when it dropped NX-01 off, it must have been in the 20th century as well. How will it get back to its 'present'?
Another hypothesis is that the explosion of the weapon left an expansing shockwave around Earth, so that any vortex appearing near Earth would exit in the 1940's. This is backed up by Archer's displacement - he was in the heart of the shockwave when it initially detonated.
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
Ok, here we go, hang on to your collar pips.
Yes, glad to see y'all resolved it wasn't a Reman. Unless they went from looking like blue-skinned red-eyed catfish to grey skinned normal eyed bats in 300 years.
Second, from that altitude, Trip and Mayweather could only have gotten a general feel for the city. I think "looks pretty normal" translates to "hey, it's a city instead of a gigantic smoldering crater," as opposed to "From a two miles up it appears identical to the city we left nine months ago." SFHQ was on one oend of the bridge, so Trip told Mayweather to land at the pad behind it, so he just started to point the shuttlepod towards the proper end of the bridge. As has been pointed out, SF has remained fairly similar from the 20th to the 23rd and 24th centuries. Much like Paris or Washington DC have been rather static for historical and legal reasons.
Now, the WHY. MY theories are:
A) Daniels tried to move Archer out of the exploding sphere, but the explosion threw off the Time Shifting Doohickey (that's the technical 29th century term for it, by the way) and wound up launching archer back 200 years. So his only choice was to send Enterprise back after him. They were shifter post-departure from within the belly of the whale - er, Aquatic-ship bay.
B) Daniels tried to move Archer out of the exploding sphere, but the explosion threw off the TSD (Time Shifting Doohickey), sending him back 200 years. At the same time, the sudden destruction of the spheres and their spatial distortions caused a ripple effect that caused the expanse to somehow "backslide" through time about 200 years, but that this backslide wasn't instantaneous, allowing the Xindii and Archer's boarding party to slip back into the Expanse before the backslide started (after all, it only takes hours in those vorticies they use). Thus, by the time the Enterprise was ferried home, the backslide had occurred, and from the Xindi point of view, everything's fine (since the whole expanse backslid).
As for why there were no Earth ships ready to defend Earth. I wager that the weapon appeared much closer to Earth than anticipated. I bet they had some first line defenders out by Jupiter or something, and when the weapon appeared in-system that far, they didn't have enough time to get back before the fight was over.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm...intresting theory. The Xindi ship could concievably go back to their old homeworld and retrieve some of those nifty Avians we've heard so much about.
Mabye. We never actually saw the Xindi ship go back into a vortex did we? Mabye they're flitting around the solar system still wondering why nothing seems to work. Do Aquatic ships have normal warp drives?
I think Archer tried to beam out of the Sphere and Earth was just within range: the blast fried him up a bit and so he was found near a battlefield somewhere a few hours before we see him in the tent.
As to the nazi vampire: I no longer think it's a Reman (unless it's a pretty distnctive variation on what we saw in Nemesis- possibly before hundreds of yeras mining dilithium for example).
So- the blue nazi is either yet another faction in the Cold War, someone playing at altering earth's history but not involved in the war, appears to be human to those around him ....or the timeline's royally fucked and humans think it's perfectly normal to serve this alien "master race".
I think everyone's back in the 1940's. I think we'll see more of Daniel's if the shjip is to return home but they have a great cance to bring back the NX-01 a few years layer than they left: We could see the birth of the Federation during the series and NX-01 would've become legendary for stopping the Xindi weapon and they would conviently came back just as the Romulan war wraps up.
There's a real chance to salvage some TOS continuity with this detour.
Fuck, there could even be a Deadalus zipping along at warp 6 wg=hen they get back!
(I know I'm hoping for too much here)
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
Aww rats. I forgot to explain the Blue Fish-Man. Sorry. Ok, I'll wager that they're contemporary aliens working with the Nazi's for their own nefarious reasons, but have some sort of handwavium device to make them look like humans (except to the omnipresent invisible HDTV camera). We just happened to stumble upon them in time for an exciting Season 4 opener arc!
After all, haven't you ever tripped, and wound up steppign right into some dog doo by coincidence? Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
You're hoping for WAY too much here.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, I know.
Would'nt it be cool if the Blue Alien was some sort of good guy? Someone sent back in time to help the NX-01 crew get back in one piece without sacrificing the timeline?
Again, I hope for far too much: non-human is EVIL! EVIL I say!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: 2. Since the hills are all green, and that usually only happens early in the year, it's probably sometime between January and March.
3. Enterprise Starfleet HQ as seen in the other screen shot is located at Fort Baker, the cove just showing down-left of the shuttlepod's left wing.
I was there last August and everything was lush and green (probably watered, but so what).
I was just saying what time of year it probably was, because normally the hills around here aren't green, but golden brown. As to it being green in August last year, you mean all over the hills around here? I had a friend over from New Zealand 3 times in the first half of the year, and by April all the hills were brown.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It was pretty green near the water (well maintained) but farther inland, everything was brown.
Just the area shown of the Golden Gate was pretty green as I recall (Golden Gate park in particular).
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The only real objection to their travelling through time is Mayweather not commenting on the stars' positions like he did in "E2."
In that instance they'd just emerged from a vortex-type disturbance and needed a position fix.
But this time, they've just been dropped off near Earth by a vortex-travelling ship that doesn't use stellar positioning so wouldn't notice any discrepancy; they've likely been told by the Xindi-Aquatic captain they've arrived, so Mayweather doesn't confirm that - he just goes and obtains a fix based on their proximity to Earth itself, the best landmark to use in their situation.
Now, assuming the shuttle gets clear of the P-51s - and given what we've seen these shuttles capable of, I'll be very pissed off if they're forced down by a WW2-vintage prop plane - the first thing they'll likely do is take a fix on the stars and figure out what happens.
But no doubt they'll get forced down and it'll be a cross between "Future's End" and "Little Green Men" or something. . .
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, yeah, by the way - another number that's screwed up: seven humans on Degra's ship? Count'em. . .
Archer Reed Sato Forbes (MACO) Woods (MACO) Romero (MACO)
That's six. Then Forbes gets the chop, and Archer stays behind, and he tells the four of them to get back to the ship.
So was Daniels sneaking around on Degra's ship when the Xindi scanned it? Or is this just another screwup like (we assume, for now) the 2152 date was?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Were there no nondescript Starfleet crew aboard?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
None were mentioned, not that that means anything. But all the dialogue in this and the previous ep seggested that it was just going to be Archer, Reed, Sato and the three MACOs - not even a medic to look after Sato, that was Reed's job.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Something I feel I should bring up. I was watching the end sequence, pausing to get a good look at everything. The decals on the fighters are different, they say "AS" next to the USAF symbol, not US. I'm thinking we're in an alternate timeline. Speculation on my part, I think instead of the United States, we've got the Allied States, or something similar, and in this timeline, the Nazi made contact with a(n) alien race(s), or vice versa.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Well, I'm no expert, but I googled for some Mustang images and none of them has letters "US" next to USAF symbol.
So I think that this doesn't mean anything - those letters are merely a squadron designation or smth.
Here's the nice article about various camouflages and markings for P-51 Mustang.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
The fuselage codes--in this case it looks like "IAS"--aren't acronyms, but rather are for squadron identification. I don't know where IAS would belong, though.
[ May 29, 2004, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: deadcujo ]
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
In other news, Rick Sternbach started a thread at TrekBBS about re-use of his MIDAS design Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
And in two posts, we see why biologists shouldn't pretend to be historians I wasn't aware of the fuselage codes, but nice work in shredding my theory. Now I've got to try and grapple with the idea that Enterprise might really be in the universe we know and love, and that's a more painful thought to bear...
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Now imagine if Enterprise was cancelled and "Zero Hour" was all we were left with.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So instead of hacking on everyone elses theories, lets hear yours...."
I don't have any theory. I could come up with any number of explanations (most of which have already been mentioned), but there's no reason to think any one is particularly more likely than the others without more information.
And I don't know who this "everyone else" is, or what "theories" I was "hacking on". I was responding to your sudden declaration that Archer was "definately" in the 1940s, when you really have no information that proves all the other suggestions are impossible.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by deadcujo: Now imagine if Enterprise was cancelled and "Zero Hour" was all we were left with.
Maybe they gave us a cliffhanger in case it was cancled so that we'd complain to UPN or something
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
I can think of worse endings for cancellation than having an unexplicable time shift / alternate time line / rewriting of the universe as we know it, with blue alien (or perhaps they'll just say he was "battle-scarred") Nazi's in an undisclosed, assumed-earth location while 22nd century equipment is unable to make differentiation between a circa 1940 aircraft and a starfleet craft.
Oh wait now. No. I can't. Comment withdrawn
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
perhaps he didn't check to see WHAT kind of craft were approaching
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I can think of worse endings for cancellation than having an unexplicable time shift / alternate time line / rewriting of the universe as we know it, with blue alien (or perhaps they'll just say he was "battle-scarred") Nazi's in an undisclosed, assumed-earth location while 22nd century equipment is unable to make differentiation between a circa 1940 aircraft and a starfleet craft.
Oh wait now. No. I can't. Comment withdrawn
You obviously didn't watch Farscape.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Warning: side note. Actually, I've seen a bit of Farscape, but it comes on at such an awkward time here that it's hard to catch consistantly. I'm getting bounced around episodes a lot, it's making it hard to follow. End side note.
As for checking to see what craft were approaching, that's plausible, but I would imagine there'd be at least some kind of IFF signal from starfleet ship to ship.
On another side note, we should be able to make a general idea of how fast your average shuttle moves through the atmosphere by comparing how fast the planes and the shuttle parted, assuming full throtle for the plane.
Posted by Boult (Member # 1269) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Oh, yeah, by the way - another number that's screwed up: seven humans on Degra's ship? Count'em. . .
Archer Reed Sato Forbes (MACO) Woods (MACO) Romero (MACO)
That's six. Then Forbes gets the chop, and Archer stays behind, and he tells the four of them to get back to the ship.
So was Daniels sneaking around on Degra's ship when the Xindi scanned it? Or is this just another screwup like (we assume, for now) the 2152 date was?
Never mind (since I can't delete my own post )
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayre: Warning: side note. Actually, I've seen a bit of Farscape, but it comes on at such an awkward time here that it's hard to catch consistantly. I'm getting bounced around episodes a lot, it's making it hard to follow. End side note.
As for checking to see what craft were approaching, that's plausible, but I would imagine there'd be at least some kind of IFF signal from starfleet ship to ship.
On another side note, we should be able to make a general idea of how fast your average shuttle moves through the atmosphere by comparing how fast the planes and the shuttle parted, assuming full throtle for the plane.
maybe his brain has atrophied since he hasn't really had any chance to think in the last year or so
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Oh, yeah, by the way - another number that's screwed up: seven humans on Degra's ship? Count'em. . .
Archer Reed Sato Forbes (MACO) Woods (MACO) Romero (MACO)
That's six. Then Forbes gets the chop, and Archer stays behind, and he tells the four of them to get back to the ship.
So was Daniels sneaking around on Degra's ship when the Xindi scanned it? Or is this just another screwup like (we assume, for now) the 2152 date was?
Mabye someone was there to man the transporters? Archer could've only listed the names of the people atually boarding the sphere.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Wouldn't the Xindi man their own transporters?
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Maybe chef thought he would get some screen time if he stowed away
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
You know, I just realized...
The funny thing is that we don't know whether there was Alien Nazi during WWII in Trek universe or not.
Yeah, I know that it's rather unlikely that, say, some alien crashed on Earth in 1935 and impressed Hitler so much that he made him a general, but, hey, we're talking about Enterprise here - this series is anything but logical. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well there was in the TOS era - the whole John Gill experiment that moreless recreated the entire Nazi thing, but his plan was to do it "right", this time.
Not to mention Kirks statement at dinner in ST6 with the Chang gang, something to the effect of: "Earth. Hitler. 1933."
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Which was in reference to the Germans needing breathing room, not to their having alien cyberzombies as allies.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Hell, if we want to speculate, we can say the whole Nazi party was influenced by the blue cyberzombie aliens, and the John Gill experiment was him copying the aliens unknowingly. You can speculate anything for this, the problem is there's this horrid lack of evidence for any of it. Reality is, unless we see next season, or we get a spoiler leaked..we have no idea. Damn Berman for his riddle, it was almost clever of him. For a shamless ratings bid, that is.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: Yeah, I know that it's rather unlikely that, say, some alien crashed on Earth in 1935 and impressed Hitler so much that he made him a general, but, hey, we're talking about Enterprise here - this series is anything but logical.
...or 1919/20.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
GET HARRY TURTLEDOVE ON THE TELEPHONE!
Posted by Capped in Mike (Member # 709) on :
I was just working on a finfic with Space Nazis from Ekos.
those bastards rip off my ideas left and right.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What's a finfic? Some sort of fish-fetish?
Posted by Capped in Mike (Member # 709) on :
where the sharks all bukkakke cum on your face when you jump over them as your show is being canceled.... keep up.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Well that's a scary thought...Who knew sharks had such muscular control and precision. Makes you wonder if Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom taught you anything worthwhile.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Puts Shark Week into a whole new light...
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
So the cute MACO who gets the knife is Forbes... hmm...
So does anyone have a screencap of the Yosemite Station?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: So does anyone have a screencap of the Yosemite Station?
Actually looking closely, Yosemite 3 is a modified CGI of the Midas Array. But they still used the Midas CGI to start from.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Gasp!
Those bastards! Now we're never gonna contact Voyager! Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Those Vulcan's, they're sentimental fools, I tell ya.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
They need to get some people who's job consists of making new models for Star Trek so they don't have to keep recycling
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
You know, I had a bit of an idea. You remember that planet from TOS, that was basically a copy of Earth, where the Yangs and Coms (read Yanks and Communists) were still fighting, and some bacteriological war had wiped everyone out and given the survivors really long lives? Maybe the Enterprise was thrown into orbit around that little clone of a planet. ...Probably not, but just a thought. I'd love to see ANY explanation for that stupid episode. Pissed me off to no end.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Well, that could be logical, given 3 assumptions. One, the Aquatic vessel doesn't know how to plot a course, and Enterprise doesn't know one sector or pretty blue planet from another. This may actually be logical given Mayweather's ability to identify things. Two, the mirror planet would have a Starfleet headquarters close enough to the "real thing" to fool Starfleet officers. This is of course, assuming that they detected a Starfleet Headquarters and wern't just going by what they assumed should be there. It would be like taking a trip, and as you get closer to home, making the turn into your driveway just assuming it would be where you left it. Nobody thinks that it won't be there. Thirdly, well I can't think of a thirdly, my firstly was my thirdly.
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
Of course, with the Spheres and Expanse collapsing, and with these weird subspace vortices they're travelling in, all manner of things could have happened. Perhaps an alternate Earth from an alternate reality was pulled into our reality, so the solar system and pretty blue planet do look the same. And perhaps the aquatics were screwed up by the whole collapsing-of-the-spheres-thing, or perhaps the alternate Earth wasn't pulled into our universe until after the aquatics left. I don't really believe what I'm saying, but I don't really believe what Berman and Braga say either, usually Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: As to the Bay Area in that screenshot, here're the nits to pick:
1. The hills to the lower left aren't underdeveloped. That's all the Marin headlands. It was undeveloped then, and likely to remain so, as it's a big park area.
2. Since the hills are all green, and that usually only happens early in the year, it's probably sometime between January and March.
3. Enterprise Starfleet HQ as seen in the other screen shot is located at Fort Baker, the cove just showing down-left of the shuttlepod's left wing.
4. The Presido at the right of the bridge appears to be well forested, maybe too much so for the 1940s, but I can't say for sure.
5. The water texture makes the whole think look like it's a 1/100th scale model. Fake-o-rama.
6. San Francisco used to have a lot more piers than it does now. If this were OUR 1940s you'd see lots of piers and ships along the edge of the city at the top right.
These FX guys need me as a SFHQ consultant.
Another Note on the Bay Area Screencap
If it is 2154, we know that the Oakland Bay Bridge bridge is still around (perhaps there are homeless people living in it ala Gibson).
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
I distinctly remember Trip telling Mayweather to "land on that pad behind the command center" so they were obviously seeing something that looked quite enough like Starfleet HQ that they thout it was Starfleet HQ. So are they really in 1940 or not.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Wait, wasn't it "Miri" that had the Earth clone?
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Maybe Miri and Bread and Circuses were caused by the collapse of of the Expanse?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Maybe Miri and Bread and Circuses were caused by writers on an insane dose of LSD.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Don't forget Omega Glory.
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
That's the one. With the Yangs and Coms. Thanks. Yeah, I want an explanation for that episode. Formal apologies should be issued. People should be slapped.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Thou hast blasphemed The Omega Glory! Captain Tracey was easily one of the best Trek villains ever, and certainly scarier than a red-eyed blue guy in a Nazi uniform.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Wow. I can't believe someone just said that. "The Omega Glory" was possibly the worst episode I've ever watched. Captain Tracey was your average starfleet captain, acting in the average starfleet way if Jonathan Archer is any indication. I'd be willing to bet Picard could have talked his way out, Sisko could have punched him out and Janeway could have bored him to death.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
This episode didn't make any sense at all! It was completly puzzling and unbelievable! Did you see that scene with the P-51s? There were THREE of them! Three! Everyone KNOWS that by 1944 USAAF fighters operated in flights of four broken up into two sections of two! And another thing, frontline fighters over SAN FRANSISCO? As I said, this episode is horribly flawed.
...or maybe I just wanted to see the Enterprise-J. I like that ship.
On another note: has anyone calculated how long it would take the other Earth ships in an outer defense perimeter to reach the Xindi deathsphere? It seems that at warp 3 (is this 27c, or am I using the wrong scale?) they should be able to reach it well within time to engage it during the show...
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Flawed? It's an episode with an alien Nazi on a show with a space dog, a linguist who can decipher languages in mere seconds, and diverse aliens who happen to have the same rats we do on hand for their feedings. This isn't exactly a documentary.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Arn't you not supposed to go to warp inside a planetary system?
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
^^^ Well, the BoP went to warp inside Earth's atmosphere in ST: 4, and the NCC-1701 went to warp inside a solar syatem all the time in TOS, so it's probably a little more risky due to all of the gravity wells in the immediate vincinity, but it's certainly not impossible. That mainly just became a "problem" because of the references in TMP and "By Purgatory's Shadow" but there's far more evidence that you can then that you can't.
quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123: This episode didn't make any sense at all! It was completly puzzling and unbelievable! Did you see that scene with the P-51s? There were THREE of them! Three! Everyone KNOWS that by 1944 USAAF fighters operated in flights of four broken up into two sections of two! And another thing, frontline fighters over SAN FRANSISCO? As I said, this episode is horribly flawed.
All the problems in that episode and your primary concern was the number of P-51's and the fact that they were operating out of San Francisco? It's not the History Channel, it's UPN, I think we can let that slide.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
yeah, and in ST:4 they ended up in the past
Anyway, the Intrepid and compangy might not have stable enough warp drive to do in system warp
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
Actually that was when they were heading back to the future [insert cheesy Huey Lewis song here].
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
either way, it wouldn't have been conductive to the situation at hand here
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Just re-watching... The reptilians said that Yosemite-3 was the ONLY station they could detect. So... they couldn't see any ships, OR Columbia, OR the huge-ass orbital facilities that were building the NX-ships or any others?
Bad writing, or something is indeed fishy...
Mark
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: Anyway, the Intrepid and compangy might not have stable enough warp drive to do in system warp
Why not? If NX-01 can...
Anyway... If there was only one orbital station (Yosemite) when Sphere got to Earth, then this whole Evil Alien Nazis thingy obviously started before Expanse was destroyed.
And it's not just the Earth... riddle me this... if Yosemite station is still around, then how come that Lunar One colony was not?
I think that one think we can all agree on is that this doesn't make any sense whatsoever... Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So... they couldn't see any ships, OR Columbia, OR the huge-ass orbital facilities that were building the NX-ships or any others?"
It's possible that the NX facility was on the other side of the planet. One does wonder where all the other ships were, though.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
[Spoiler warning for Season 4!!!]
The second part will reveal that the Enterprise has been captured by the Founders and the crew has been put into some holodeck-machine to find out how humans would react if the Dominion decided to expand into the Alpha Quadrant. Meanwhile Archer meets the leader of a renegade crew of Jem'Hadar who are not longer addicted to Ketracel-D (or whatever they call it) and convinces him to help him free his crew. For no apparent reason, he's dressed up like a Nazi. The Founders make the crew believe that the Romulans started a war with the Feder..oops.. I mean Earth and T'Pol is convinced that the only way to stop them is to make a suicide run on their mothership, which looks strangely familiar to those few who have seen Nemesis. By the end of the episode, they will not be saved (Actually, this situation will kick of another sub-arc, dealing with the Romulan war.) While the crew wont get out of the holo-machine until the mid-season two-parter, Archer and the Nazi-Jem'Hadar will join a crew of escaped prisoners on a living ship, called "Al".
But I guess the rumor of William Shatner returning to play evil Kirk of the mirror universe is wrong.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: yeah, and in ST:4 they ended up in the past
Anyway, the Intrepid and compangy might not have stable enough warp drive to do in system warp
Or not.
It is, afterall, exactly what Cochrane did in the very first warp flight with the Phoenix...
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
*still thinks it might be the mirror universe*
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: yeah, and in ST:4 they ended up in the past
Anyway, the Intrepid and compangy might not have stable enough warp drive to do in system warp
Or not.
It is, afterall, exactly what Cochrane did in the very first warp flight with the Phoenix...
Well, he didn't exactly have alot of past experience to tell him that it was a bad idea
Yes, I admit they do it in Star Trek all the time, but I usually considder that writers forgetting than considdering the rule to be bull. Otherwise, why make the rule in the first place
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: Well, he didn't exactly have alot of past experience to tell him that it was a bad idea
He had, however, two experienced Stafleet officers as his co-pilots. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
But it had to happen in system, or else the Vulcans wouldn't have seen him, and he couldn't have gotten out of system very fast in the Phoenix, now could he?
(And they knew he'd get lucky) Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Prehaps its ok to warp OUT of a system away from a star, but not INTO a system twords a star. Maybe some kind of gravitic/subspace technobabble bow-shock from the warp field will cause the star to flare or somthing.
Hmmmm....
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
As to TMP's line "We must now risk engage warp drive while still within the solar system." Don't forget that those were new engines never even tested at warp power. This implies that for safety's sake such untested engines are usually tested far away from habitable planets and probably the gravitational effects of stars and their planetary bodies, because that would cut down the number of forces that could affect your testing. That's what I always assumed Kirk meant by the line, anyway.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
quote:Originally posted by deadcujo: Flawed? It's an episode with an alien Nazi on a show with a space dog, a linguist who can decipher languages in mere seconds, and diverse aliens who happen to have the same rats we do on hand for their feedings. This isn't exactly a documentary.
Yes, yes. Thats the irony of my statement. I actually liked the episode (though I still don't know what to make of the last five minutes). Hmmmm, maybe I need to use more smilies...
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
IT IS GOOD IT IS NOT PRONOUNCED "NEUTRINO GOD-HELP-US-ALL"
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
The Internet is no place for irony.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I believe someone just ripped off MrNeutrons name.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: I believe someone just ripped off MrNeutrons name.
What?! You dare question the originality of my name? I have documents to show that I have been using that name from several years ago!!! I'll also have you note that the neutrino and the neutron are completly different subatomic particles. Each of the grand neutrinos is a 'fundemental' particle while a puny neutron is a jumbled mess of quarks.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
It's fundamental till we discover a smaller particle.
(j/k, I know that currently it's fairly certain that it's fundamental. But then, 150 years ago, it was thought that the atom was fundamental...)
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
I have heard of a theory that has signifigant substructure to fundemental particles (I think it was mentioned in The Elegent Universe-a book which I recommend ), but most physicists would definatly agree that today's fundemental particles are in fact fundemental. String theory agrees with this, and it offers tantalizing hints to be the Theory of Everything...
quote:Originally posted by worffan1990: IT IS GOOD IT IS NOT PRONOUNCED "NEUTRINO GOD-HELP-US-ALL"
Does this somehow imply that I'm not insane? It better not...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
What you tachyon about Willis?!
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
ONE-TWO-THREE
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Your signature makes me sad.
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
Pride of Carstairs, Alberta. Or some shit like that.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
bwah? This guy's wierder than Nim...
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
It is how he reminds us of what he really is.
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
ok so? ur fat.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
That really is a show of immaturity. BTW, you should not be cursing for a 13 year old kid.
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
I will show you! FRELL.
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
So...are we still talking about Zero Hour here, or have we degenerated to a Junior High chat line?
Posted by worffan1990 (Member # 239) on :
Zero Hour was when DC's Past came back to haunt them. Or something.
Comics are for stupids.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: That really is a show of immaturity. BTW, you should not be cursing for a 13 year old kid.
So, for which 13 year old kid is he cursing?
Grammar, man. Use it!
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Yeah, whatever. But it really has degenerated into something like a junior high chat line.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
May I take this opportunity to ask as to just what the "fuck" is going on with this thread? What happened to the (more or less) intelligent discussion of the the technology and plot of the Star Trek: Enterprise third season finale "Zero Hour"? Where have all the flowers gone?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Blame UM.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
The ending of Zero Hour has overloaded some synapses (assuming there have been some in the first place, which I doubt in some cases. )
Braga Brain Damage, Baby!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: May I take this opportunity to ask as to just what the "fuck" is going on with this thread? What happened to the (more or less) intelligent discussion of the the technology and plot of the Star Trek: Enterprise third season finale "Zero Hour"? Where have all the flowers gone?
When will they ever learn?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Precisely.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
OK, so I'm not the only one who thinks things round here are devolving to sub-TrekBBS levels, and blaming worffan for that, and planning to kill him?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Agreed.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Okay, so now that Zero Hour ends with Nazi Aliens, let us pretend the makersofEnterprise won't use a reset button.
What does that leave as viable options for the outcome o' this bag o' retread? A simulacrum like that Voyager episode with the, uh, Hirogen is it?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Or the mirror universe...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Then again, they may just jump back into the TCW arc - the Nazis and crap have NOTHING to do with the Xindi, but FutureGuy and Daniels mucking stuff up again. They just jump back into it, with a simple explanation being given for how Archer survived - getting yanked out by Daniels and into the next story.
Mark
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
I don't see how they'd fit as time-related, though. It's not all Marty McFly-styled-getting-the-almanac type deal, they have to get aliens to come and be all powerful, then get them to become the nazi party.
Here's hoping the whole season is a Band of Brothers vs. The Nazis Aliens deal.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I've heard a few things from a reliable source:
1. The Nazi Alien was referred to in the script as "a member of a previously unseen alien race." So not Reman.
2. TPTB threw this cliffhanger onto Zero Hour but at the time had no explanation for it (i.e. they're going to worry about it when production for season four starts).
3. The first few scripts for season four have already been written, so it's likely that they will involve this whole Nazi thing.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Good God, no. That might involve more MACO-counting and I'm perilously close to the edge as it is.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: I don't see how they'd fit as time-related, though. It's not all Marty McFly-styled-getting-the-almanac type deal, they have to get aliens to come and be all powerful, then get them to become the nazi party.
Here's hoping the whole season is a Band of Brothers vs. The Nazis Aliens deal.
Not sure what you're on about now, but there weren't "Nazi Aliens." There was a singular Nazi Alien. Not to say that there couldn't be more, but we've only seen one.
And Dukkie, it's possible that while the script was unspecific about what sort of alien this Nazi was to be, during production it was decided to make him a Reman for (as yet) unknown reasons. IIRC, this is what happened with the episode "Bounty," where originally there were no Tellarites involved in the story but merely generic aliens, but some clever fellow decided to use this already-established race instead.
While I'm wary of using the Remans, I'm even more dubious of inventing some race that looks 90% identical to them but is supposed to be different. You'd think they'd come up with a more distinct makeup job if there wasn't supposed to be a connection.
-MMoM Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I'm now worried on what else can go wrong.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
I am assuming there are more than one, because they probably have more than one costume on the rack leftover from Voyager.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"TPTB threw this cliffhanger onto Zero Hour but at the time had no explanation for it (i.e. they're going to worry about it when production for season four starts)."
Oh, that's comforting.
"...during production it was decided to make him a Reman for (as yet) unknown reasons."
Okay, well, while that could have happened, there remains the fact that he didn't look like a Reman.
"...I'm even more dubious of inventing some race that looks 90% identical to them but is supposed to be different."
What, like just about all of the "small latex forehead prosthetic" aliens Trek has ever had?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The dude looks like a Reman!
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Not really.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
Side note: his wet ears are kind of creepy.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: The dude looks like a Reman!
No he doesn't. He is a different color and has more ridges then the Reman. The eye is different too.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"TPTB threw this cliffhanger onto Zero Hour but at the time had no explanation for it (i.e. they're going to worry about it when production for season four starts)."
Oh, that's comforting.
Of course, they had the same situation with "Best of Both Worlds" in that they didn't have an ending written before the first part was produced.
Or so I'm told.
B.J.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
That's typically how cliffhangers are written. You don't write the ending until later.
The trouble with this approach, naturally, is that often you can write yourself into a corner without a good way to get out of it.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, there's a difference, I think, between "Picard is going to get assimilated by the Borg, and the crew has to rescue him, and... we're not quite sure yet how they're going to win" and "hey, let's stick an alien in a Nazi uniform, and... well, we'll think of something to do with him".
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: The dude looks like a Reman!
Yes, but 99% of all alien dudes on Trek look like humans, and we're all sick of those. Now, for once, one doesn't, and you're STILL dissatisfied. Some people... B)
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: The dude looks like a Reman!
No he doesn't. He is a different color and has more ridges then the Reman. The eye is different too.
So the TV-Reman looks a little different than the movie Reman? Westmore said (in the Making of show of Nemesis) that the ears and the upper skin layer were hard to do, and I guess that's just not possible on a TV-budget. Even if it would be silly to put a Reman there, Westmore's people clearly had the intention to make his next appearance both the first contact with another new species or the first contact with the Remans. Finally it's up to the writere whether they start off with the Romulans or if they do something different.
And we shouldn't be narrow-minded when it comes to changes of appearances. Every important race in the universe did have such a change.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Ever heard of Occam's Razor? It would leave your theory a bloody mess Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
OK, why are people so obsessed with proving that this guy must be a Reman? Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
TNG Trill v. DS9 Trill
Klingons grew foreheads in 100 years... Romulans grew enlarged brows much the same...
Pre-mid-22nd Century Remans could have changed dramatically by the late-24th Century.
If they indeed are related to the Romulans and Vulcans (which hasn't been proven or disproven, but it makes sense that they might have) would one not assume they "offshot" from the Romulans who in turn "offshot" from the Vulcans? Look at the difference between the Romulans and Remans and the direction their respective evolutions took.
Now consider what the Remans might have looked like...300, possibly 500 years ago. Blue Team Nazi there might be our answer.
[ June 04, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
Hmmm...so the alien must be a Romulan! The Romulans must just have lost their ridges between Enterprise and TOS...
I say the Klingons don't count and the Romulan change is small (similar to Worf's change from TNG to DS9). I don't remember any TNG Trill, though.
The two pictures in question may first strike one as similar, but just look at the ridges individually (such as the one below the chin) and you will see the change is too big for them to be the same.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
you again... Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Okay, a couple of points:
- I would consider it exceedingly moronic of them to introduce a new and apparently important species whose appearance could so easily be mistaken for that of a Reman. (Even if only at first glance, since the alien was only seen in one brief shot.)
- The differences between the two makeup jobs are slight and subtle, and are easily attributable to Westmore refining the Reman design so as to make it more practical for use on a weekly series budget/schedule.
- The changes between TOS Klingons and Romulans and their later movie/TNG counterparts have always been intended to be "non-changes" from a production standpoint. (Meaning, they "always" looked like that. The only reason they didn't appear that way on TOS was because they didn't have the makeup budget/technology to do it.)
- Remans are not genetically related to the Romulans or Vulcans. The implication from Nemesis is that they were an indigenous race that was conquered by the Romulans when they migrated to their system. And evolution doesn't occur on the scale of centuries, it takes millions of years. The small amount of genetic drift between the Vulcans and Romulans apparently occurred within millennia, but then again it could have its roots much further in the past. (i.e., there could have been a genetic/racial split before the Romulans even left Vulcan.)
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
However, evolution only takes several thousand years, not millions...considering the Earth is barely "millions" of years old...besides look how much dogs have changed in only a couple thousand years of domestication and breeding, and we all know that Remans are the Romulans 'dogs'.
...and it was acknowledged that the Klingons did change...
...and dude, I was trying to defend your observations, with the logic of costume changes from the past...
[ June 04, 2004, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
As a student of geology and paleontology, I must correct you, Sir. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, which is a very far cry from "barely millions." And evolution in higher animals (as opposed to more rapidly reproducing bacteria and invertebrates) does NOT occur within "only a couple of thousand years," but---at the quickest---tens or hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions.
Dogs were probably first domesticated by Man somewhere between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago. And aside from this, artificial selective breeding effects genetic drift on an amplified scale compared to natural selection. Many dog breeds were produced by selectively breeding mutants that never would have survived in a natural setting.
The only "acknowledgement" of a change in Klingon appearance was in "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) and that was clearly a joke for the benefit of the audience. The fact that all other incidences of "historical" Klingons (including Kahless, the ENT Klingons, and even the three Klingons from TOS itself Kang, Kor, and Koloth) have confirmed that they have always been bumpy-headed.
And I appreciate you trying to back me up, but using faulty arguments to do so doesn't really help.
-MMoM Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123: I say the Klingons don't count and the Romulan change is small (similar to Worf's change from TNG to DS9). I don't remember any TNG Trill, though.
"The Host": Beverly knocks one up, called Odan. The Trill here have bumpy forheads, can't use transporters, and the symbiote is in complete control, compared to the "joined" being seen in DS9.
Thank god you cleared that up. Imagine the embarrassment if someone came up to you in real life and called you "Neutrino one hundred and twenty three". You'd never live it down.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The guy looked more like an angry, constipated Benzite. Or a Bynar with acne problems. Or a Nausicaan who lost a fight. He's certainly not Reman.
Yes, he has a built-up nose, just like a dozen other species, including Ferengi, Klingon, and others. However, unlike the Remans, his nose buildup doesn't suddenly change course and flow toward the cheeks.
Yes, he has a wide region between the eyes, just like Jem'Hadar and others. However, unlike the Remans, his wide region doesn't flow in direct from the single brow ridge.
Yes, he has circumocular buildup producing deep eye sockets, just like Cardassians and others. However, unlike the Remans, his doesn't completely surround the eyes, and certainly doesn't produce anything like a diamond shape.
Yes, he has ears with makeup on them, but they are completely dissimilar to Reman ears.
Yes, his lips are made-up, but they are completely dissimilar to Reman lips.
Further, he has spiky things in front of his ears. He has red eyes. And, last but not least:
HE'S F***ING BLUE!!!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: As a student of geology and paleontology, I must correct you, Sir. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, which is a very far cry from "barely millions." And evolution in higher animals (as opposed to more rapidly reproducing bacteria and invertebrates) does NOT occur within "only a couple of thousand years," but---at the quickest---tens or hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions. -MMoM
And let this be a lesson to all you kids out there in high school and college that you will forget everything once you leave college...and do a lot of drugs.
Anyway, suffice it to say Evolutionary Biology was my Capstone...2 years ago...and what the fuck, I wrote that? Did I mention, don't do drugs?
oh and...
quote: Dogs were probably first domesticated by Man somewhere between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago. And aside from this, artificial selective breeding effects genetic drift on an amplified scale compared to natural selection. Many dog breeds were produced by selectively breeding mutants that never would have survived in a natural setting.
Anyway, my senior thesis/project was on this...or was it on fish? Hell if I know...have to dust it off and check that out. Anyway, most common breeds that have the greatest variations in 'design'...fufu poodles, taco bell dogs, wiener dogs, beethoven dogs, pitbulls have only come to be in the last few hundred years, at most, all originating from white fang. Did I mention don't do drugs?
Anyway, I still haven't seen concrete evidence that the Remans were conquered.
Anyway, the Klingon this was on the screen so it is canon...nah nah!
Anyway, turn on, tune in, drop out!
Timothy Leary, 2004!!! Woo!|||
God I'm so wasted!
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
Should I always remember to bring a towel? You have no idea what's going on...
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123: I say the Klingons don't count and the Romulan change is small (similar to Worf's change from TNG to DS9). I don't remember any TNG Trill, though.
"The Host": Beverly knocks one up, called Odan. The Trill here have bumpy forheads, can't use transporters, and the symbiote is in complete control, compared to the "joined" being seen in DS9.
Thank god you cleared that up. Imagine the embarrassment if someone came up to you in real life and called you "Neutrino one hundred and twenty three". You'd never live it down.
1. Ack!? If that was actually a Trill, I retract my statement about only small changes in species forehead development. 2. Someone did that once...the next five minutes caused them to never do it again. Murhahahaha!
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"Someone did that once...the next five minutes caused them to never do it again. Murhahahaha!"
No.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
ru gay?
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
In Star Trek VI we saw Klingons with barely noticable bumps on their heads, and we've seen intricate patterns of bumps, nooks, and crannies on Warf's head. It's not impossible Kirk didn't encounter any bumpy Klingons, in TOS.. though we all know the answer is '60's makup and budget'.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, but the same individuals (Kang, Kor, and Koloth) who were seen "without" ridges in TOS were later seen on DS9 with ridges. Also, Kang was seen by Sulu in 2293 (as per "Flashback [VGR]) only 25 years after appearing in "Day of the Dove," and Sulu didn't go "WHOA KANG DUDE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FUCKING FACE???" or have any trouble recognizing him. That's really the final nail in that coffin.
-MMoM
P.S. I was about to own up to derailing this thread further still, but then I realized that even this tired discussion is better than what was going on a few pages back... Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
monkeys throw poo
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Yes, but the same individuals (Kang, Kor, and Koloth) who were seen 'without' ridges in TOS were later seen on DS9 with ridges."
So they changed.
"...Sulu didn't go 'WHOA KANG DUDE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FUCKING FACE???' or have any trouble recognizing him."
So Sulu knew about the change.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Can we go back to junior high chat? Please?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
One thing that I've noticed in novels and such is reference to the ridges on a Klingon's forehead somehow being a sign of his family. Maybe its possible that the ridges are some kind of advanced surgery, so that members of a family can be recognized? Of course, this theory could only work if Kurn and Worf's ridges were the same.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:I would consider it exceedingly moronic of them to introduce a new and apparently important species whose appearance could so easily be mistaken for that of a Reman. (Even if only at first glance, since the alien was only seen in one brief shot.
Technically true, but you're forgetting the laziness of the whole ENT production staff in reusing everything from ship designs to makeup & prosthetics from other series & movies. That is, either laziness or UPN forcing them to keep within a strict, ridiculously small budget, which is probably the real reason, if not at least half the reason.
quote:The differences between the two makeup jobs are slight and subtle, and are easily attributable to Westmore refining the Reman design so as to make it more practical for use on a weekly series budget/schedule.
Again, either that, or Westmore just picked a random Reman forehead prosthetic off the shelf & did the best he could with it.
quote:The changes between TOS Klingons and Romulans and their later movie/TNG counterparts have always been intended to be "non-changes" from a production standpoint. (Meaning, they "always" looked like that. The only reason they didn't appear that way on TOS was because they didn't have the makeup budget/technology to do it.
Yes, but here, you're comparing TOS '60's production values to '90's production values. That's not the same comparison as the one for this "Nazi Reman" argument, where there was just a few years difference from Nemesis to Zero Hour.
quote:Remans are not genetically related to the Romulans or Vulcans. The implication from Nemesis is that they were an indigenous race that was conquered by the Romulans when they migrated to their system. And evolution doesn't occur on the scale of centuries, it takes millions of years. The small amount of genetic drift between the Vulcans and Romulans apparently occurred within millennia, but then again it could have its roots much further in the past. (i.e., there could have been a genetic/racial split before the Romulans even left Vulcan.)
Although in this particular instance I agree with you, I have to say that there was absolutely no evidence in Nemesis that the Remans were either related to the Romulans/Vulcans, or not. I also didn't see any implications of this in the movie either, which was just one of the frustrating things about that movie. The only thing I saw that even remotely looked like a link between the species was that they both had pointed ears.
Even though G/JR-S and "Shatner's" newest novel Captain's Blood states that the Remans were indeed descended from the Romulans, I still, like you, find that a little presumptuous.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Regarding re-using stuff from other shows, let's remember that this is TV here, and re-use is the name of the game. Heck, half of the stuff on Buck Rogers came from Battlestar Galactica (and Match Game 75, fromt he looks of it!), and how many times did we see those circular archways in early TNG? It's a money making enterprise and you spend as much as necessary to make the show and no more.
And, it's not just money, it's time. These shows are made under very tight schedules amd there isn't time to do everything the way you want. So, you pick your battles and you make do with whatever you've got at hand.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I KNOW WHAT IT IS!!!! I FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT!!!!
O'Brien and Bashir weren't talking about how the Klingon's looked different because of their ridges... that wasn't it at all. They were talking about their uniforms, they looked so gay in them! O'Brien and Bashir were having a hard time understanding what was going on so they asked Worf... and then Worf said that "We don't talk about it." Why did he say that, BECAUSE they were gay! At least, everyone on Kang's crew save for Kang himself... unless she was just a trophy wife.
But why didn't the TOS folks recognize Worf as a Klingon? Because they were so used to the gay Klingons that they couldn't tell, and they just figured him for one of the many trader species that were new to the Federation's commerce.
Com'on it's so obvious now.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
Wow, I have posted occasionally on 3 forums before, but never has anyone commented on my signature until I joined this forum.
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: "Someone did that once...the next five minutes caused them to never do it again. Murhahahaha!"
No.
No what? Do you question the accuracy of my statement?
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: [QB] "ru gay?"
No. Where did that come from?
By the way, does anyone know if the Enterprise-J is an actual model or if it was just a 2-D illustration for one scene? I really like that ship. Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: HE'S F***ING BLUE!!!
This mos eloquently put point is probably the most important. A scaled down/cheaper Reman design is one thing, but I hardly thing it's cheaper to make the eyes RED instead of yellow and the skin "F***ING BLUE". I'd wager red contacts cost as much as yellow ones, and that yellow/green is equally cheap as "F***ING BLUE!" tint. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: One thing that I've noticed in novels and such is reference to the ridges on a Klingon's forehead somehow being a sign of his family. Maybe its possible that the ridges are some kind of advanced surgery, so that members of a family can be recognized? Of course, this theory could only work if Kurn and Worf's ridges were the same.
And they are the same. Along with Alexander's. Likewise, I think the various members of the Duras family have similar ridges.
Oooh, that's something someone can do...check and see if Ent Duras has the same ridges as TNG Duras. If he doesn't it's easily explainable, but it would be interesting if they are the same.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"No what? Do you question the accuracy of my statement?"
Yes.
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
Seriously, now, FuturamaGuy, UltraMagunes, and Neutrino123 seem to be in a catfight or Jr High insult ralley, while the rest of us are actually TALKING ABOUT TREK. Does it bother anyone else that within a thread that started out with an intelligent discussion, we end up with posts like "ru gay?" Come on, people, take it outside.
Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :
I think I've gotten used to it! So, how 'bout that Nazi, eh?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Okay, Defiantly Running About, I will totally listen to you! Go to bed, child.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Right.
We really need to raise the minimum age requirements around here.
That, or a curfew.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
"What's the point of being an adult if you can't act childish sometimes?"
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
Childlike and childish are two different things.
And, why are people thinking blue alien nazi guy is a Reman? He doesn't look anything like a Reman. He looks more Benzite than anything, but he doesn't seem to be a species we've heard of before. And yet, people keep coming up with insane reasons and circuitous explanations for how it could be a Reman - but why? Why does everyone desperately want a Reman in Enterprise? That would screw up continuity even MORE - Nemesis was the first time they'd really seen Remans; they hardly knew anything about them.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
You = very childlike Us = very childish.
Okay, Benzite over Reman, yeah that must be it.
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Oh, wasn't that a delightful spot of rubbish. Honestly, while certain arguments are amusing and..somewhat related to...something, this really has become jibberish. As for the childlike vs. Childish discussion, what was the point of all that? While I might not agree with the arguments either side is making, Defiantly Running About does make some logical inferences and isn't just randomly uttering nonsense (as one might expect from a child), so I think the lable as being childlike is undeserved there. As for the content of all the above arguments, well that's another issue entirely.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Evidently you are still catching on to the nuances that make Flare, well, Flare. If you don't like it, go elsewhere.
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
quote:Originally posted by Defiantly Running About: Seriously, now, FuturamaGuy, UltraMagunes, and Neutrino123 seem to be in a catfight or Jr High insult ralley, while the rest of us are actually TALKING ABOUT TREK. Does it bother anyone else that within a thread that started out with an intelligent discussion, we end up with posts like "ru gay?" Come on, people, take it outside.
Did you actually read my previous posts? They all contribute something to the discussion (besides this one). Everybody doesn't seem to recognize jokes here. Maybe I'll go post in the Series ? topic.
That said, I still think I should respond to posts directed at me (or should I? ).
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: "No what? Do you question the accuracy of my statement?"
Yes.
Well that's unfortunate since I have no proof (it was... an intra-family affair). You should really learn how to quote in your posts (the quote symbol in the top center of another person's post). How's that for a cutting remark?!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And you probably use the buttons to put in things like smileys and link tags too, don't you?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"How's that for a cutting remark?!"
Poor.
"You should really learn how to quote in your posts (the quote symbol in the top center of another person's post)."
Thank you. I don't know most of these things, as I am new.
"Well that's unfortunate since I have no proof (it was... an intra-family affair)."
That you would like to be called by your internet user name amongst your family is about the worst thing ever.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Everybody doesn't seem to recognize jokes here."
Irony.
"or should I?"
NO YOU SHOULD NOT NEUTRINO ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THREE
Posted by Defiantly Running About (Member # 1216) on :
Well here I thought this site was an intelligent sci-fi forum. Come to find out its a chatline for bitching and insulting! For a group of middle schoolers no less. What's the world coming to. *anticipating the intellectually sterile responses and 'burns'*
Posted by Ayre (Member # 1218) on :
Actually, for simple informative sake, I've been reading these forums every day since it was part of the old Behaviour Group. I think it's safe to say I'm familiar with the practices and styles of the various forum members. I've been here longer than half the members have been, I simply didn't post because most things I would have said eventually got said anyway. My point is, simply, why is it almost necessity for each thread to degenerate into a series of near-pointless argument. Concurrently to that, while I will agree most noobs have the posting ability of your average chimpanzee, some do make valid comments, and shouldn't be hazed simply for being new.
Posted by Ultra Magnus 321 (Member # 239) on :
Burns? Rad!
Maybe radical. I am unaware of the situations which cause the suffix to be added.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
"Do ye like Burns?" "Aye." "Then hold this poker for me."
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: And you probably use the buttons to put in things like smileys and link tags too, don't you?
Um...and if I do?
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus 321: "How's that for a cutting remark?!"
Poor.
"You should really learn how to quote in your posts (the quote symbol in the top center of another person's post)."
Thank you. I don't know most of these things, as I am new.
"Well that's unfortunate since I have no proof (it was... an intra-family affair)."
That you would like to be called by your internet user name amongst your family is about the worst thing ever.
Poor? Ha! It was an excellent statement! In addition, Neutrino 123 is not just my internet user name. I would change my name to that, but then everyone might get the idea that I was insane ...especially since most of the people I meet are physicists. I see your have changed your user name to a superior one due to attached numeric designation.
Disclaimer: Anyone who mistypes my name is foolish.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Neutron 456, why would anyone ever get the idea that you're insane?
Posted by Ultra Magnus 321 (Member # 239) on :
"Poor? Ha! It was an excellent statement! In addition, Neutrino 123 is not just my internet user name. I would change my name to that, but then everyone might get the idea that I was insane ...especially since most of the people I meet are physicists."
You sadden me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Come to find out its a chatline for bitching and insulting!"
Well, the fact is, we're a relatively closed community. Those of us who have been around for a while usually understand each other. And if someone new shows up, and they don't "get it", or they feel insulted, and they decide not to stay around... well, honestly, they aren't typically missed.
So, if you really can't handle a few jokes being thrown at you, you'll probably continue to overreact, and that will likely cause even more jokes. And thus, a vicious cycle begins.
Oh, and calling us "middle schoolers" isn't going to make us behave or feel insulted. We say worse to each other.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I just love the implication that the only reason he doesn't legally change his name to Neutrino123 is because then the other physicists would tease him.
If Flare had a Quote Of The Month that'd be it. 8)
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
I move that we allow a quote of the month.
Posted by Ultra Magnus 321 (Member # 239) on :
"We say worse to each other."
ur a fag
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I find that a bit much. Using homosexuality as an insult, jokeingly or not shouldn't be accepted any more than raceism.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, none of us here finds that to be a problem, and that includes all of the gay people here.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
"all" of the gay people? You've polled everyone?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...and that includes all of the gay people here."
Did he tell you that himself?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Neutrino 123 is not just my internet user name."
What, you physicists have special retard nicknames for each other?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Forgive me for being sanctimonious, but I really think this has gone far enough. UM has apparently decided as of late that it's cute to post pointless and incoherent (not to mention derogatory) babble left and right. From that initial derailment, this thread has gone progressively downhill as other normally (sort of) good-tempered members have caught the scent of fresh newbie blood and moved in for a bite. In the process, the thread has wandered completely away from any productive, topic-related discussion.
This is becoming quite tiresome and a little troubling. I don't think we're representing this board in a particularly favorable light here. Let's move on to something else, please. Timo, if you're listening, I call upon you as the moderator of this forum to close this thread. I realize it's all fun and games, but it's getting out of hand.
-MMoM Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Yes, there's been quite enough bickering in here. I don't think its likely to improve anytime soon. Thread closed.
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