Fanboy speculation to break the summer mediocrity!
What features are unique to a battle bridge? What features SHOULD be unique to a battle bridge? Why have one in the first place? While it doesn't work in the Trek television sense, would it work from a Trek technical standpoint?
Running through some old Gundam lineart in my library, I happened across the bridge design for the Ra Caillum class warship from "Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack". This carrier-type ship has two bridges: a regular bridge from which normal operations are run, and a "combat bridge" directly below it that everyone goes to when the ship is in combat (other ships in this movie feature similar bridges). The combat bridge in this case is a small room for a slightly smaller number of people, who are all bunched together around a central holographic display AND a forward monitor.
The kicker here is that in this setup, the captain's chair actually descends into the combat bridge (everyone else who transfers has to go down a laddered hatchway). Anyway, I'm wondering if this sort of setup would fit in in Trek - and what kind of console setup would make sense.
[spooge]
Imagine something like the GCS bridge, all happy and brightly lit. Then, when comes time to fight, the three central chairs descend into the floor, and emerge into a much smaller set. The flanking seats now have larger consoles in front of them. The familiar con and ops consoles are now much closer to the centre of the room, and a tactical console is sandwiched between them. Additional tactical and sensor stations are around, and manned as the descending chairs settle in.
[/spooge]
Mark <--- Haven't sketched a bridge in a while, I haven't.
[ June 24, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by japol (Member # 1149) on :
Well, modern warships have a bridge and a combat information center located in a more heavily armored section of the ship. The bridge controls the movement and navigation of the ship while the CIC controls the fighting of it. During combat, the commanding officer goes to the CIC while the executive officer stays on the bridge.
In Star Trek it is an excuse for a special effect. It is really just a secondary bridge to control the "stardrive" section when it is separated from the saucer section.
That said: perhaps your version of a battle bridge should have extensive weapons and sensor controls as well as strategic and tactical displays in conjunction with the main viewer.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
A battle bridge certainly doesn't need 12 year olds on it, but I'll just ignore that for now.
The moving chairs idea sounds overly complicated, especially since the battle bridge is not directly under the main bridge. The battle bridge commands the battle section of the ship (hence it's name, you could say) in case of seperation.
The one thing I'd really like to change on a battle bridge are the standing consoles. Not very comfortable, and in case of a big impact, Worf ends up in the viewscreen, decapitating Picard on the way. Not pretty.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Gundam pilots average 15-17 years old, actually. The youngest known pilot on record was 13. But ship captains tended to be older (Ra Caillum's captain was in his late thirties), and we're talking about the ships.
What I'm discussing is the feasibility of such a setup in the Trek universe. If not a fully-functional separate bridge, then a separate CIC-type thing. So this time, instead of all three centre chairs descending to a combat bridge, just the Captain's chair would go down one deck. The two other chairs would be for the XO and another officer to drive the ship, and the Captain would direct fire and operations from a room with lots of tactical consoles.
Another Gundam-based idea is the Archangel class from the current show, Gundam SEED. This time, we have a Main Bridge from which the Captain commands ths ship overall. The dark spot behind the captain's chair is an opening to the Gunnery Bridge a half deck below and underneath the aft consoles. There, the ship's XO and gunnery crew direct fire. The gap is such that the XO and CO can still communicate directly.
I guess what I'm getting at here is how to design Trek bridges more along the lines of real-life pardigms while still maintaining the Trek "look". Gundam is a franchise whose designs often emulate that, so I'm examining ways of incorporating some of their ideas into the trek universe.
Mark
Posted by Capped in Mike (Member # 709) on :
seatbelts, maybe?
what, somebody thought that up before me?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Moving chairs is an awful, no good idea. We already have to sit through incredibly dated scenes of people physically handing information to each other.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
From the ST:TNG Technical Manual on the main bridge there is a turbolift that runs directly to the battle bridge. The battle bridge might be used in the event that the main bridge was damaged and operations had to be shifted to the battle bridge. I know on US navy ships for example the last ship I served on was a carrier and we had the main bridge which control helm and throttle controls and CDC which the captain was in during a "battle" and they had radar and stuff like that and then we had Secondary and Aux conning stations that were in case the bridge was damaged they had a ships wheel and a throttle assembly and could actually control the ship.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
But when Data was "taken over" by Dr. Soong and made the Main Bridge loose lifesuppport in TNG's "Brothers", Picard and the others went to Main Engineering.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I've always wondered about that. There was more than just "Brothers" I think where they controlled the ship from Engineering. One would think that the Battle Bridge would be the more logical location, but that probably had something to do with how the set was put together and what not.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Pretty much. In such cases, it costs FAR less to use an existing, standing set than to tread out another one from storage, or to rebuild it.
Mark
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the battle bridge!"
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I always had the feeling that the Battle Bridge was specifcally set up to control the Secondary Hull and needed to be reconfigured for control of both hulls. But Main Engineering was already set up in case the Bridge fell apart.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But that's stupid. If the main bridge is damaged, it seems far more logical to use the battle bridge, since presumably the layout of those locations is productive to ship running. What are they suppossed to do in engineering? Have Picard sit on the pool table?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Creepy image of Picard in a sequence dress lying atop a piano in engineering and singing lounge songs....
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In any case, Engineering is proably optimized for the crew that's already there, and probably has more people runnign around during combat. So, if the main bridge is dmaged, and everyone runs downstairs and starts using all THEIR consoles, it'd be really crowded and a big downer for everyone already there...
Mark
Posted by Capped in Mike (Member # 709) on :
for some reason, i want to think that a dedicated battle control area designed for extended periods of combat and a large arsenal under a single room's control would have more stations, not less...
but hey, i've been wrong before. i mean, the freakin ship cleans itself!
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I worked in CIC on the Fitzgerald. The bridge is extremely simplistic. Just an old console in the center where a deck guy drives the ship.
CIC on the other hand looks better. Blue lights, computer consoles everywhere, two large screens that display the tactical air and tactical surface picture. You get to wear a cool headset to talk to everyone in combat.
I'd like to see a bridge in Star Trek that incorporated both the traditional Starfleet bridge with modern day CIC.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: I worked in CIC on the Fitzgerald. The bridge is extremely simplistic. Just an old console in the center where a deck guy drives the ship.
CIC on the other hand looks better. Blue lights, computer consoles everywhere, two large screens that display the tactical air and tactical surface picture. You get to wear a cool headset to talk to everyone in combat.
I'd like to see a bridge in Star Trek that incorporated both the traditional Starfleet bridge with modern day CIC.
Did you guys have a USW module on the Fitzgerald?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capped in Mike: for some reason, i want to think that a dedicated battle control area designed for extended periods of combat and a large arsenal under a single room's control would have more stations, not less...
but hey, i've been wrong before. i mean, the freakin ship cleans itself!
I dount think you're wrong exactly, but I do think that any of the stations on the battle/ Aux Bridge would be easily converted to control nay shi's functions (making a few stations capable of doing the work of all those rear bridge stations).
I'm also of the opinion that we've only ever seen an Ambassador's Aux-Bridge.
Heck, mabye even the Yamato's for that matter.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Do we really see enough of the (real) Yamato's bridge to say it doesn't look big/grand enough? As I recall, it's just the standard close up on the captain with the T of the horseshoe railing behind him.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's just a thought: besides, the Yamato probably has many changes and tweaks the Enterprise does not (depending on wich ship was commisioned first) as Starfleet R&D refined the class for production beyond the inital six ships(?).
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I made a quick sketch of CIC Intruder1701, but I can't find the Flare Upload.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Chairs dropping through decks all turbo-lift style and dropping into place in a command area harkens back to 80's cartoons such as Voltron and M.A.S.K. Hence, I'd say leave that feature out of Trek.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I guess the closest we've had were the pointlessly moving forward chairs on the B5 White Star, seen to move only once before being permenantly stationed on the sides of the bridge. Lter on, I think they did away with them altogether...
Anyway, while droping chairs is probably pointless in the Trek grand scheme, I still think it'd be cool to test the limits of what is stil acceptable as "Trek" while still being different. For example, many fan bridge designs have done things like incorporate ladders, transporters on the bridge, asymetrical design, holocommunicators, big central holographic displays, etc. And yet, in the end we tend to be comfy with what we've been given for forty years. Of all the feedback I've recieved on my bridge esigns over the years, the most "normal" ones are what have been the most popular - ergo, things which look contemporary to existing ones.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I've got no problem at all with assymetrical bridge design. I think it can be done well. As for ladders and whatnot, I think that anything that makes it hard to get around on the bridge is a bad idea. Probably not all that conducive to taking action in emergency situations. And, while I think the holo-communuicator we saw the one time on the Defiant was a stupid plot device, I think that having such things on near future starships would be acceptable.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The holocommunicator was used once more in that DS9 episode where Bashir reveals his genetically engineered background, for similar dramatic effect. Between that and the USS Prometheus, starships don't NEED places for visiting holograms to stand around - it can really be anywhere. In any case, 2D comms are still the order of the day.
Anyone ever seen a GOOD asymetrical bridge design? Aban, you had a decent one for a recent poster, but overall it was still fairly even... I'm talking about wildly asymetrical here. Captain's chair sandwiched all the way on the right, or odd numbers of consoles all over the place...
Mark
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: For example, many fan bridge designs have done things like incorporate ladders, transporters on the bridge, asymetrical design, holocommunicators, big central holographic displays, etc.
Many fans are trying to design a cool looking bride, not a cool looking bridge that's also practical for use on a TV show. That's why there's no transporter on the bridge, and probably why they don't have big central (expensive) holographic displays.
Remember, the whole idea behind TNG-era computer tech is that's is suppossed to look as simple as possible, because then it will date far less. If they'd tried every fancy computer trick they could have used on the displays back in 1988, they'd look far worse 16 years later than they do now.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Relativity's bridge is the only radically assymetrical bridge I've seen and it was alright. It was obviously just an attempt to not have to build more than one set for the ship, but it was still pretty cool. The presence of the transporter on the bridge probably indicates that it's use is a major part of the work they regularly do. I still think it's a dumb idea though.
I think the Jenolan's bridge also had a transporter on it, assuming the room we saw Scotty and Geordi piloting the ship from was the bridge, which it appeared to be. Anyone got screen cappies?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Many fans are trying to design a cool looking bride, not a cool looking bridge that's also practical for use on a TV show.
No doubt while living in their parent's basement.
As to bridge design, I really hate Voyager's side-by-side loveseat arrangment. The captain should sit alone in an obvious position of authority. I imagine the first officer could be a ranking bridge officer (like in TOS) on smaller ships (like Worf or Dax on the Defiant) where there is less administrative chores (Ryker was endlessly doing someone's evaluation and on a ship the size of a Galaxy, just coordinating the diffrent departments would be a lot of work).
O could easily see a Sabre's tactical or science officer as First Officer with their own station to man.
The Sovvie's bridge is pretty nice (if far too bright for my personal tastes).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Ryker"?
I know you aren't married to a dictionary, but that's no reason to suddenly turn into my dad. What's next? "Sisco"? "circ"?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Speaking of holographic displays. I was watching some La Femme Nikita episodes on DVD and they had one. Operations used it every episode for the briefings. If LFN could afford it, I don't see why ST can't.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Many fans are trying to design a cool looking bride,
I like Voyager's bridge, mostly for the complicated alcoves that Ops and Tactical get. Ops especially, since as described in, for instance, the TNG technical manual, this should be one of the busiest stations.
Re: bridges and their design in general: I didn't care for the Relativity's bridge because it looked like a break room. So, I guess the psychological effect of having a "normal" looking control room are not insubstantial. (For the home viewers, I mean.)
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Re: Jenol!n's bridge - it was symmetrical in general, with the side alcoves being different. It was a custom (non re-used) set, with the common center chair, forward TNG consoles, and an aft console for Scotty to use for Engineering purposes. Geordi flew the ship from the center chair, probably using the backup con/ops controls aluded to as far back as "Encounter at Farpoint". The alcoves off to the sides had the transporter and the engineering greeblies that Scotty and Geordi could stick their heads under.
Holographic displays have been used in numerous instances on TNG, in the conference lounge at atop Picard's desk (sometimes with no visible projector or emitting surface). Oddly, they were almost never seen on DS9 or Voyager. In any case, it's not really that unfeasile these days... I really wish they'd incorporate them more.
I never liked the dual-center seat configuration on Voyager either. The CO is supposed to be the center of attention, but the proucers deliberately wanted to de-centralize the command structure on the bridge and give it less of a "flaying machine" look. Also, all main stations were designed to look towards the main viewer, inasmuch as the Sovvie bridge had everyone capable of looking at the Captain.
And for me, Sovvie bridge = bad. WAY too pointy, and all the free-standing consoles gave it a quilted, strewn-about look to me. If they had gone with a more unified approach, putting the tactical and science / eng consoles on the same level in more of a "ring" (as ws originally envisioned), then it'd have looked more consistent. And of course, my REAL pet peeve with this bridge is that almost a third of it, towards the front, is empty and unused space. Even the forward consoles are above it. Why have a pit at the front of the bridge that no one can use? Argh!
Mark
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"The CO is supposed to be the center of attention, but the proucers deliberately wanted to de-centralize the command structure on the bridge and give it less of a 'flaying machine' look."
Wow.
This for the commanding officer who has her senior staff periodically eat her flesh as a team-building exercise.
Or, for those alien captains who can store up complex chemical triggers in their skin, which, when removed and consumed, selectively tweaks the biochemistry of their crew. Like, let's get the away team ready for a dangerous mission. Massage those adrenals!
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Ok here is a question. I dont know how many people have noticed but in a few episodes of TNG Im not sure which ones off the top of my head but it seems during Red Alert additional crew stations could be scene over Datas left shoulder. Where did these come from and what do they do? I know Im not the only one to have seen them or am I?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
O_o;;
No stations ever just "pop up" on any Trek bridge during alert conditions. Only the extra consoles on Spock's science station in the early TOS-movies is like that. On the E-D, there are no stations on the side of the bridge except in "Yesterday's Enterprise" in the third season, where an alternate timeline added stations to each side for just that episode, and then more permenantly so in the "Generations" movie before they blew up the set...
Hey, anyone ever done a schematic of the "Yesterday's Enterprise" bridge? I remember liking it much more than the "Generations" bridge, whose additions never seemed to jive with the existing motif. The "YE" bridge tacked on stations over the existing walls, but didn't add any seats. While it was not as involved as the movie, IMO it was much better than the uncomfortable-looking chairs and stools added in "Generations". I like to think that Starfleet had that as a potential bridge design for the Galaxy class, and maybe even during the Dominion War a GCS or two was outfitted that way...
Mark
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
One thing that I never understood was why the tactical station didn't have a chair or stool or something. The officer could easily look over the captain's head. Except for in Generations when they added the stations and raised the 3 chairs up.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I was hoping the ST:Mag or the Fact Files would have reproduced a drawing of the "Yesterday's Enterprise" alternate E-D bridge, but alas they never did. Of course I would have liked to have seen drawings of all bridges (including variations) we saw on all the Starfleet ships.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I as well. Downloads or not, I was buying the STMs that had bridges that I liked.
As for the Generations bridge stools, Worf WAS still able to easily see over the captain's head. It's just that their heads were so much closer that Worf could literally breathe down Picard's neck if he wanted to.
What I really like about the YE and Gen bridges is that the center seat(s) are finally raised above the con/ops stations. For seven years, while sitting down all Picard, Riker and Troi could see were the heads of Data and whoever was flying the ship. No wonder Riker was always perched on the Ops console.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: "Ryker"?
That's for you ba-by! You nailed me on it a few weeks back if you recall.
I dont know what it is with me: I worked with someone named "Ryker" for a year with that spelling and while I know the guy from Trek is "Riker", I just type it wrong anyway. (shrug)
It seems I'm a fucktard. It's been that kinda day.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Re: Jenol!n's bridge - it was symmetrical in general, with the side alcoves being different. It was a custom (non re-used) set, with the common center chair, forward TNG consoles, and an aft console for Scotty to use for Engineering purposes. Geordi flew the ship from the center chair, probably using the backup con/ops controls aluded to as far back as "Encounter at Farpoint". The alcoves off to the sides had the transporter and the engineering greeblies that Scotty and Geordi could stick their heads under.
Except that the Jenolin used the same bridge (externally) as the Reliant.
Why in hell would there have been a transporter on the bridge anyway? The ship is HUGE! It'd have to be capable of ferrying hundreds of passangers (scale based on the nacelles and the bridge).
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
maybe it was "Yesterday's Enterprise" that I was thinking of
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Speaking of holographic displays. I was watching some La Femme Nikita episodes on DVD and they had one. Operations used it every episode for the briefings. If LFN could afford it, I don't see why ST can't.
The holo-displays in season 1 were pretty crappy, though. They got better as the series went on. They could probably afford it because of all the money they were saving on completely unrealistic explosion effects Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
one wonders why they didn't use the same seats as the back station for the new side stations on the Generations bridge, since they seem to have the shapes of the chairs there under the pannels
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune:
quote:Originally posted by Hobbes: Speaking of holographic displays. I was watching some La Femme Nikita episodes on DVD and they had one. Operations used it every episode for the briefings. If LFN could afford it, I don't see why ST can't.
The holo-displays in season 1 were pretty crappy, though. They got better as the series went on. They could probably afford it because of all the money they were saving on completely unrealistic explosion effects
No shit! Huge explosions that all look identical and leave no debris. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Christ, yeah. All the other TV shows made in 1988 had much better explosion effects, didn't they?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
The above link is a diagram of the Fitzgerald's Combat Infomation Center (CIC).
CIC is more like what the battle bridge should look like. On a Navy ship the bridge doesn't do anything. Just drive the boat. CIC is where all the weapons and radars are controlled.
I stood watch at the AN/SLQ-32A(V)2 and EWS consoles. There were two large screens (PT-563), one displayed the tactical air and the other tactical surface. Someone must have been watching Star Trek when they made them.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Christ, yeah. All the other TV shows made in 1988 had much better explosion effects, didn't they?
Well, there's a reason to update the effects in the TNG episodes.
Really, they could've at least added in a bit of debris now and then.
Even in later seasons they used the exact same explosion shot....only the Yamato blew up nicely.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Cool! Is there a quickie guide to what all those acronyms mean?
Mark
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
TAO: Tactical Action Officer. (Department Head) CSC: Combat Systems Coordinator. (Chief) EWS: Electronic Warfare Supervisior. (EW) SLQ-32: AKA Electronic Warfare Console Operator (EW) TIC: Tactical Information Coordinator. (OS) IDS: Identification Supervisior. (OS) RSC: Radar Systems Controller. (FC) MSS: Missile Systems Supervisior. (FC) AAWC: Anti-Air Warfare Coordinator. (Officer/Chief) AIC: Air Intercept Controller. (Officer/Chief) ASTAC: Anti-Submarine Tactical Aircraft Controller. (OS) ASWC: Anti-Submarine Warfare Coordinator. (STG) FCO: MK 116 system. (STG) OSS: Mk 46 Optical Sighting System. (GM/FC) GCFS: Gun Control Fire System. (GM/FC) ASUWC: Anti-Surface Warfare Coordinator. (Officer/Chief) SWS: Surface Warfare Supervisor. (OS) OTCIXS: Officer in Tactical Command Information Exchange Subsystem. (FC) TADIXS: Tactical Data Information Exchange Subsystem. (FC) LCU2: Launch Control Unit. (FC) LCU1: Launch Control Unit. (FC) DDRT: Digital Dead Reckoning Tracer. SPA-25G: Radar repeater.
Some of these systems I'm not too familiar with. I had to learn it for ESWS (Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist) qualification.
The TAO is usually a department head, although the officers that stood it shifted around. Mostly it was a LT that did it.
AAWC and ASUWC were usually ENS, LTJG, or chiefs.
These are the rates that sit at the stations. EW: Electronic Warfare Technician. OS: Operation Specialist. FC: Fire Control Technian. GM: Gunner's Mate. STG: Sonar Technician (Surface).
The OTCIXS, TADIXS, LCU-1,2 were used with tomahawk strikes. Classified Top Secret so I won't go into that, plus it's the equipment I knew least about.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
I knew a girl when I was stationed on the USS Theodore Roosevelt who worked in CATCC (Carrier Air Traffic Control Center). We had duty the same days in port. We used to watch movies on the big screen that was used to track incoming aircraft.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
We're talking about explosions on La Femme Nikita, not TNG. Or at least I was.
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