Hi, I was directed to this forum through some link on G2k's ST vs SW site... Been reading through his stuff for a few days now, entertaining stuff! Shot off a few feedbacks too, got a reply to one, which I should be proud of considering the amount of feedback he probably gets.
I did a quick keyword search for "genesis" torpedo... and came up with zilch. I hope this posting isn't redundant
If my foggy memory recalls properly, it was some kind of torpedo-delivered device that could "reorganize matter" on a planetary scale. The Reliant was looking for some lifeless planet to test the torpedo on...
I guess I'll start this discussion with some open questions,
1. Was the genesis torpedo ever mentioned after ST:II and ST:III in canon? Non-canon? 2. Since they were looking for a lifeless planet to "reorganize matter" on, do you think that the torpedo depends only on the amount of mass in the vicinity to create life? For example, the genesis torpedo seemed to affect the nebula, and the planetoid, even though they were pretty far from the planet. 3. What level of access do you think Starfleet personnel needed to have to know about the project? Could, for example, Janeway have replicated a genesis torpedo in the Delta quadrant while she was a lowly Captain? 4. Could the genesis torpedo be replicated? Was Khan's failure to replicate the genesis torpedo because there was some component that could not be replicated, or because he lacked the design schematics to do so? 5. Could reorganization of matter be accomplished on any target? I am thinking of certain "banned" weapons... warp weapons in ST:Insurrection the Son'a seemed to have. Do you think the "genesis" torpedo was banned, or just that the information was kept confidential?
I would have more questions, but don't want to spam everybody with them... yet I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this potentially most devestating weapon in Star Trek... G2k you should really think of putting up a page about the Genesis device!
Brian
Posted by brianeyci (Member # 1400) on :
Okay I promised I wouldn't spam yet, but some quick ideas just came to my head that I don't want to forget...
1. In ST:III, I remember the Klingon guy obtaining exactly the same recording that Kirk showed to Spock and McCoy in ST:II... so either the schematics weren't complete enough for the Klingon to replicate in that video, or there was some component that couldn't be replicated.
2. Does anyone have a good blow up of the schematic of the genesis torpedo? Better yet, can someone with a DVD version of the movies and an AV cable hooked up to their computer host the small video? It would be nice to see some screenshots... maybe it would be possible to extrapolate the size/volume/mass of the planetoid from the video, and determine a potential high/low yield ranges...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's not really spamming- just requesting. The schematic you describe would have been just a generalization of components: notthing that would describe how those components were built.
I've not seen any scareenshot of that image though.
Do a search (in the upper right hand corner of the page) for "Genesis" to find the eleventy billion threads on the Genesis Device thus far here at Flare. And welcome to Flare.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
The Genesis project was mentioned briefly in the Voyager episode "The Omega Directive." Other than that, I think Star Trek II, III, and IV are the only canon that deal with it.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
1. It was mentioned on Voyager? I just remember something about a Regula-type starbase where they tried to create an Omega-particle which caused the destruction of subspace in that area (or something like that; never payed attention to the "science" on that show). But I believe they mentioned it early on TNG.
2. As far as I understood it, the reorganisation caused the creation of a new planet, regardless if the material used was from a nebula or a planetoid. As long as there was enough of it, it really didn't matter. Furthermore, it didn't create any life, did it? It just created an environment that could sustain life.
3. Obviously, the video was not that highly classified (I guess they screened it at scientific congresses or used it to convince the council to fund the project). The real data about the project however probably wasn't even available to Kirk.
4./5. The thing didn't work from the start (they used protomatter; it worked, but it all collapsed after a short time). And it obviously wasn't that efficient as a weapon, either. Not very precise (at least not if your name isn't Emperor Palpatine and your sick hobby is blowing away Rebel planets), and not very useful either. Take a couple of quantum torpedos or a biogenetic weapon instead. Think of the Transwarp drive or the advanced cloaking; we didn't see them again, although they did work (one was sabotaged, the other one was just used by someone incompetent).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Transwarp never worked.
The Genesis device did actually create life as Dr. carol marcus states: "the lifeforms developed later at a gtreatly accelerated rate..."
For killin' on a grand scale, I'd go with biogenics, subspace weapons or the ol' solar flare trick the Klingons pulled. That "shoot protomatter into the sun to mkae it go nova" was pretty slick as well.
Who needs the Death Star anyway?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
quote:"Hi, and Genesis Torpedo"
The makeup of this threadtitle attracts me. I can't describe it but it is funny.
Welcome to Flare, Brian Eyci. About the Genesis Torpedo, it was a prototype, restricted to that science station and that work crew, so kind of unique. And it was invented as a terraforming device, as we all know. Of course, so was dynamite originally. :.) Anyway, Khan was in dire need of som reschooling, having been out of the loop for some time (!), besides, the main thought occupying his mind was cold, slimy revenge, so he wouldn't be doing any microbiology studies in the near future.
What was that "forbidden" component that David Skywalker had used to finish the Genesis-cocktail, when it wouldn't work the conventional way? Was it Deuterium? Unobtainium?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
There was some oblique reference to Genesis in an early TNG episode too. "Home Soil," first or second season. A terraformer making snide comments about what happens when you try to take shortcuts with planetary engineering.
And welcome! Don't let the hazing get to you, it will pass.
Browsing through Dixon's fandom-timeline, there are several non-canon references to Genesis.
According to "The Ashes Of Eden", Starfleet disposed of all it's protomatter after the Genesis incident.
FASA has some tensions between the Klingons and the Federation erupting because the Klingons believe that the UFP has 'Genesis torpedoes'.
Then there's the "Genesis Wave" series of novels. It introduces a 'Genesis Nonproliferation Treaty', and does some stuff with a rebooted Genesis Project.
I'm not really into novels, so I'm sure someone else can tell you more interesting things.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The Genesis Wave series is crap. I only read the first two, but it was enough.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Recall that, even in the movies, the Klingons had their panties all in a bunch about the Federation's creation of an ultimate weapon. So evidently, they were worried about its use in that capacity.
I recall someone, I think Janeway, mentioning Carol Marcus along with other scientists. It may have been in the Omega Directive, but I can't remember which ep.
As to why Khan couldn't replicate the Genesis Device, replicator tech wasn't nearly as advanced back then, if it existed at all. It also seems highly unlikely that protomatter is able to be replicated.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: The Genesis Wave series is crap. I only read the first two, but it was enough.
I cant concievably agree more: total shit were those novels and if I could, I would excise the experience of having read them from my life.
Really, just avoid anything written by John Vornholt or Peter david and you'll probably get a good read from recent Trek novels. Stick to the DS9 novels.
To summarize; the novel states that Dr. Carol Marcus is still alive in the post-DS9 era and has been under house arrest for the past century for "knowing too much". Not only really stupid, but completely not what Trek/ Starfleet is about.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I'd also avoid Susan Wright's 'novels'. She's constantly showing off that she has read the Chronology and Encycolopedia, and forgets she actually has to write something new.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: I'd also avoid Susan Wright's 'novels'. She's constantly showing off that she has read the Chronology and Encycolopedia, and forgets she actually has to write something new.
I was able to obtain a copy of "Badlands, Part 1". Wasn't that spectacular at all (worse than the second part, at least the Voyager story in that volume was entertaining), but that's exactly what really annoyed me. She tries to be smart but gets half of the facts wrong anyway. If she wants to impress Okuda and Sternbach, se should write a real tech book.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: 1. It was mentioned on Voyager? I just remember something about a Regula-type starbase where they tried to create an Omega-particle which caused the destruction of subspace in that area (or something like that; never payed attention to the "science" on that show). But I believe they mentioned it early on TNG.
Protomatter was also mentioned in DS9 "Second Sight" and "By Inferno's Light". Both times, it was used for "helioforming" rather than "terraforming" - that is, to manipulate stars rather than planets. Seemed to work just fine in turning a "dead" star into a sunlike live one, and was supposed to work just fine in turning a sunlike live star into a nova...
quote: 2. As far as I understood it, the reorganisation caused the creation of a new planet, regardless if the material used was from a nebula or a planetoid. As long as there was enough of it, it really didn't matter.
We don't really know. In the promo video, a pre-existing moon was transformed only on the surface, and very thinly so: the mountain ranges stayed unaltered, for example. And if the torpedo was tuned to do the same to its intended test planet, then it probably did that to some unintended planet in the Regula system when Khan detonated it, rather than turn nebular matter into a planet.
quote: Furthermore, it didn't create any life, did it? It just created an environment that could sustain life.
Depends. We never heard of Carol or David planting all those ferns in the Genesis Cave. Instead, we were supposed to think that the Genesis effect had created the ferns, as well as the birdlike critters in the cave.
On the Genesis Planet, only the giant bugs in Spock's coffin were said to have mutated from pre-existing life. The other life there presumably grew out of nothing, created by Genesis either via some sort of super-rapid evolution, or then instantaneously, without any evolution.
Certainly, there wouldn't have been time for life to develop on its own in either case. Barely one generation of each lifeform would have lived before our heroes came.
quote: 3. Obviously, the video was not that highly classified (I guess they screened it at scientific congresses or used it to convince the council to fund the project). The real data about the project however probably wasn't even available to Kirk.
So why was the promo video part "eyes only" (literally!), if the retina scan didn't give Kirk access to anything more than the pretty pictures? I rather think the whole concept of Genesis was top secret, and the promo video was awaiting the moment Carol could finally make her "proposal" openly.
quote: 4./5. The thing didn't work from the start (they used protomatter; it worked, but it all collapsed after a short time).
Well, the Genesis Cave experiment seemed to work just fine. We don't know how long before the movie the Phase Two experiment had been started, but it probably was at least a couple of months prior, because the Marcuses wouldn't have begun the search for a Phase Three planet until they knew their device worked.
quote: And it obviously wasn't that efficient as a weapon, either. Not very precise (at least not if your name isn't Emperor Palpatine and your sick hobby is blowing away Rebel planets), and not very useful either. Take a couple of quantum torpedos or a biogenetic weapon instead.
Well, if you want to eliminate a whole planetful of enemies, a single torpedo sounds like a better weapon than a "couple" of torpedoes, never mind the warhead type.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo:
quote: [QUOTE] 4./5. The thing didn't work from the start (they used protomatter; it worked, but it all collapsed after a short time).
Well, the Genesis Cave experiment seemed to work just fine. We don't know how long before the movie the Phase Two experiment had been started, but it probably was at least a couple of months prior, because the Marcuses wouldn't have begun the search for a Phase Three planet until they knew their device worked. Timo Saloniemi
It's possible that the cave experiment was just a test of the lifeform creation capabilities though nad not re-arrangment of life itself or that protomatter actually works as intended on a very limited scale: the cxave could not have been more than a few hecacres at most after all.
I'd think Starfleet would have monitored the cave very closely after the Genesis planet blew though (assuming it-or Regula one) survived at all).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I di admire the attempt to be ultra-modern and hip, but still..."hectares".
Also, the Star Trek III novelisation talks about the cave. It's been a while, but I seem to recall that they go there at the beginning of the book (before the actual "movie" stuff starts), and they notice a few odd things happening (in a subtle foreshadowing sort of way), but don't think much more of it.
I'm sure another novelisation, possibly Star Trek VI also mentions the cave, but in that it has survived. Something to do with some rare element in the structure of the planetoid keeping the protomatter stable.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm....how far away could Regula have been from the nebula though? The Enterprise creeps into the nebula at (quarter?) impulse after making a run from behind Regula....so not very far at all. The moon's orbit must have been radically altered by the formation and then destruction of the Genesis planet at the very least.
I always considered the matte painting used to represent the cave to be kinda cheesy: it seems to have been created for something else and the light source looks farther away than the cave's roof could place it.
Mabye Genesis failed so quickly because it expended so much energy making the matter from nebular gas and nothing "pre-existing". ...or it's just a story element and not meant to be scrutinized.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
OTOH, the Genesis planet could have simply been the pre-existing Regula IV, terraformed from a lifeless body with minimal fuss. As said, this is what the Genesis device was *supposed* to do. And Khan could hardly have altered the settings, considering the Marcuses "couldn't cram another byte" into the programming.
It is even possible that the Genesis planet was the original Regula asteroid transformed...
In any case, it seems that Mutara nebula was basically *within* the Regula star system, perhaps in the process of being sucked into it. This would nicely explain its seeming high density and the high energy phenomena raging within.
And yeah, admittedly, the Genesis Cave matte was cheesy. Fortunately, the set didn't hinge on that: the vegetated ledge on which the characters stood, with the waterfall on the background, was IMHO enough to support the illusion of them being in the cave, even if we only saw the matte for three seconds or so. But if the resourceful Starfleet engineers spent ten months digging the cave, it probably was BIG. Big enough to justify the lighting angles at least.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by brianeyci (Member # 1400) on :
Wow I leave this thread alone for a couple days and look at all the replies. Good Stuff Good Stuff lol. I'll be posting when I have time, starting new discussions when I feel like... etc lol. Mostly reading though.
The omega episode... I remember watching it but don't remember the Genesis reference. Thanks.
The Genesis torpedo has got to be the most powerful planet-killing weapon ST has. Biogenic weapons? Well kills all life on the planet, but what if you want to actually destroy everything on it as well? Blowing up a sun? Maybe there's a couple planets you want. The thought of seeing a single photorp with some sort of genesis destroy a planet is pretty funny. Not to mention the "temporal police". Ugh. Star Trek sure has its superweapons, but some of them are a little too unbelievable.
I'm more inclined to lean towards the Genesis device being common knowledge among military circles at the very least, if not the general Federation/Klingon/etc citizen. If the briefing was showed in the UFP Council meeting, wouldn't the ambassadors have been scared shitless about the possibility of a planet being destroyed by a single torpedo shot? Would have made it to the history textbooks, if not standard military reading in training academies.
Genesis cave was cheesy. Spock dying was good.
Brian
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
There was the doomsday device from TOS, as well. Someone must've built that.
I wonder if the Voth self-destruct mechanism on their city ship could turn it into a flying WMD.
Nim
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think the tech for building a Planetkiller is available yet: it's Neutronium hull may have been a requirment for that mega-anti-proton beam.
making Neutronium seems beyond Trek's capabilities: if you dropped a chunk of Neutronium and Anti-Neutronium onto a planet, it's destroy the world as easily as anything else in sci-fi.
Posted by brianeyci (Member # 1400) on :
Oh yes, the Planet Killer. One wonders whether or not the Feds will eventually be able to use Neutronium. The Think Tank did it... eventually, why not the Vulcans?
Neutronium seems to be a cop out, a plot device that is used when some species needs some sort of impenetrable hull. So don't really expect to see Trek ships flying around with Neutronium soon... they'd have to invent another word for some invincible hull! (lol)
One wonders whether those ships attacking the "Think Tank" had any effect on the Neutronium hull. Obviously they did, given that the think tank was taking enough damage to have its holographic projection system disabled. So Trek weapons do exist that can "damage" Neutronium hulls... although we don't know anything about the Think Tank's armor other than it is based on Neutronium.
(edit) I do remember now. Janeway said their hull was made of "pure neutronium". So perhaps the strength of neutronium is based on its mass and density? ie 2 inch neutronium, maybe a couple dozen of those ships, a few meters of neutronium like the planet killer and it would take all of starfleet to penetrate the hull!
(edit 2) or another possibility exists... that neutronium is effective against phasers and photorps, and not whatever weapons that hunter species were using.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"Based on" is a far cry from the real thing though. Neutronium would be so super-dense that no ship could concievably manuver with even a milimeter's worth of it covering the hull. We're talking millions of tons per square inch.
I figure the PK had a huuuuge internal warp drive to even allow it to move at sublight speeds: also explainig why it needed to consume planets: to convert it all to antimatter to fuel the drive. The Constilation's explosion caused an inbalance in the anti-m flow or something and it just stalled. It would be intresting if Starfleet placed it's Memory-Alpha inside the PK's hull though: there'd be no place safer from attack.
The Iconians OTOH may have used their gateway technology to shunt the majority of their neutronium ziggurat's mass somewhere far far away (off planet).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(It occurs to me ((or, OK, I stole this from somewhere else)) that Star Trek III is about a preemptive Klingon invasion to put a stop to the development of WMDs, or, OK, maybe just programs that could lead to the development of WMDs, but still, look, we did it, and anyway the Genesis planet is now free of Federation cultural tyranny, so there; and sure, things there may be a little rocky today, a little, let's be frank, up in the air, but there's no reason to think that we can't get it back together again, with a little help from gravity, allowing us to kronosform it within, our best scientists say, no more than four or five hundred thousand years.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So the easliy-despensed with USS Grissom represents UN resolutions, with indecisive Capt. Estiban standing in for Kofi Anon...?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Dominion/Cardassians used Neutronium on their Cardassian headquarters door.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this potentially most devestating weapon in Star Trek... G2k you should really think of putting up a page about the Genesis device!![[Wink]](wink.gif)