quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
-Apparently their mucking with the timeline has now placed the Eugenics Wars, or part of it, only twenty years previous. This DOES mesh with the notion of what Admiral Bennett was saying in DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" that the EW were two-hundred years ago, though he does evoke Khan in that speech.

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No, this is not correct. TrekToday misreported that because they had incomplete info. Soong's arrest was "a couple of decades" previously, but this arrest was not part of the Eugenics Wars. He had stolen embryos left over from the wars from a medical facility and revived them. A poster on the Trekbbs who has already seen the episode in its entirety clarified this issue and pointed out the error.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
 
Damn, I wonder if the Orion makeup is toxic this time around...

A wrestler and a former Calvin Klein model in this episode... hmm...
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 

quote:

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No, this is not correct. TrekToday misreported that because they had incomplete info. Soong's arrest was "a couple of decades" previously, but this arrest was not part of the Eugenics Wars. He had stolen embryos left over from the wars from a medical facility and revived them. A poster on the Trekbbs who has already seen the episode in its entirety clarified this issue and pointed out the error.

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Ah, okay then. Still, I'm sure that SOMEONE will be trying to link what Bennett said to this arc. The timeline matches up, if only a bit.

Mark
 

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Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
 
30 million deaths occurred during the Eugenics War...cool
 

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Posted by Dr. Phlox (Member # 878) on :
 
Is it my imagination or does the Orion Slaver Wrestling guy look worryingly like Shrek?
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
I believe that joke has been done.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
God, what's NOT to like with this episode? Rock on, Coto!

-Possibly for the first time since "The Voyage Home", the bridge of a Klingon ship is NOT the same set premiered in that movie! The room is a pastiche of old sets dating back to DS9, and while some elements of the set walls are from the old Klingon set, the characteristic upper level, freestanding consoles and door are nowhere to be seen. The freestanders are originally from DS9, and while the chair is Klingon it's on a single pedestal - there are no steps anywhere.

-Is there a particular reason Soong is being kept in a Starfleet facility? Does the interstellar nature of his crimes put him in their jurisdiction?

-Enterprise has apparently been moved back to its original spacedock, so they could use that stock footage again. We first meet the crew on the bridge in civvies, as they're being recalled to duty as the fastest ship in range. Sounds a lot better than "the only ship in range", anyway...

-Ahh, the new bridge! The first time we see it, the new chair is covered only to be revealed later. The set has been repainted to be slightly LESS grey, and it's lit a little warmer. I believe there are new sound effects to match the more red and yellow LCARS... Did anyone else hear the bouncing "pyoingyoingyoing" sound taken from TOS before now?

-The floor is also blue in places - not clear if it's padding or plating, but it's new...

-The chair has understandably had its panels replaced with blinky lights... Which seems to be a new motif on the bridge. Maybe it's the new paint or lighting, but the bridge seems a whole lot blinkier.

-VFX - the launch sequence IS changed. The overhead shot during the launch has had the two guys in spacesuits removed, and I'm sure the ship is seen from a slightly different angle as it goes into warp. Is this is the case, the new shot uses the same older spacedock model as from the premiere! They deliberately dug it up to keep it consistent. Well done!

-A Y-class freighter is seen in orbit as Enterprise pulls in. I'm guessing that it's either an oversight, or a batch of humans in a piddly little warp 2 transport with one plasma gun can handle more than we are led to think in such hostile territory.

-The set improvements continue! The transporter chamber has been modified, looking more red and with swirly things in the back to make it look more TOSey. Another good move!

-As we saw last year in "Raijin", the slave market is a potpourri of known and unknown species. A Tellarite was prominently shown at one point - he's the guy that buys T'Pol.

-Rebar manufacturers rejoice! Aliens will one day flock to earth to buy your wares to make cages out of.

-Enterprise carries 18 kilos of tritanium cobalt. Whatever it is, it must be an alloy, not an ionic compound.

-Hey! Archer goes to two prisons this episode, and he's NOT a prisoner either time!

-Anti-jiggle breast tape. Hyup.

-As has been seen before, the Klingon ship's corridors are made from pieces of Defiant corridor.

-A new interview with "Malik" actor Alec Newman reveals that most of the augments are actually wearing hairpieces to evoke the 80s hairstyles seen on Khan and his followers in "Wrath of Khan". So what - is the mullet a genetically inbred trait?!

-One wonders if that strategic command room is still there. Was it installed for the Xindi mission, and would it be removed if they didn't need it anymore? The brig's still there...

-Hey! The one female MACO is still there! And she gets shot - again!

Mark

[ October 29, 2004, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
Just watched it, cool episode.

A few things to note:
The augments are from embrios left over from the Eugenics War, in the 20th century. Soong stole them 20 years ago.

The bridge and chair (which we already know about) looks nice, I like the blue. The chair has blinky lights as buttons.

The wall pannels inside the transporter look like they've been redone to look more retro. I think its a bit overdone.

Enterprise doesn't get the new deflector featured on the Columbia.

We see Orion ships, called interceptors.

The ships used in the establishing shot of the Orion planet included an Earth cargo ship. Can't remember which class.

EDIT: I've been beeten to the punch! Ah well, I mentioned a few different things...
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, I haven't seen the episode, but, in regards to the human ship in Orion space: they are pirates.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Let's see if I can add anything...

-- Excellent and abundant views of the old-style BoP; once the usual HDTV screencaps are posted some talented artist should be able to render schematics of the design.

-- The writers can't seem to make up their mind about whether it's called Alpha Centauri or Proxima colony.

-- Soong continues his work in genetic engineering on a theoretical level---literally on paper---in prison. Every few months they clear out his cell and vaporize everything. At the time of the episode he's designing a cure for Sherat's (spelling?) Syndrome. (At first I thought this was supposed to be the genetic hearing disorder that Picard was afflicted with, but looking at the Nemesis script I see that was "Shalaft's.")

-- Trip warns Archer not to push a particular button on his new chair. This is probably an "in-joke" allusion to the fact that it is a re-use of the Nemesis chair with the surprise seatbelt. (Although someone on the TrekBBS pointed out that it could also be a reference to Kirk jettisoning the ion pod from TOS "Court Martial.")

-- T'Pol accepted the Starfleet commission mentioned in the last episode, and she is now a Commander, complete with pips and NX-01 patch on her arm. But she's still wearing the catsuits and not a uniform. This strikes me as a bit incongruous, but I suppose one only need think of Troi to dispell that feeling. (NOTE: We now have concrete canonical refutal of the "urban legend" about Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet.)

-- Phlox confirms that the Eugenics Wars still took place in the 20th century. (No retcon = good! )

-- The Orion ships with their looming "wings" seem subtly reminiscent of the design from the animated episode "The Pirates of Orion" to me, but that may be a subjective/psychological thing on my part.

--Anybody catch what unit of currency they were using at the auction? Whatever it was, T'Pol sold for 6 million of them, IIRC.

-- Is it possible that "tritanium cobalt" is what later comes to be referred to as "tricobalt"?

If I think of anything else I'll be back.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
The Orion males all seem to be pretty big. And their ships remind me of the Moldy Crow from the Dark Forces computer game.

My wife and I both laughed at T'Pol being picked up and shown around. I know the guy's strong, but he threw her around like she weighed nothing!

Re: Spock and 1st Vulcan in Starfleet - Well, this still isn't the *Federation's* Starfleet, so you never know.... (My own opinion is that he's not.)

No new dish for the Enterprise. Damn. I still hate the old one, and Columbia's looks good.

With all the changes to the sets, seemingly getting more TOS-like, did anyone notice if they installed any lights under the viewscreen or not?

B.J.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Additions after re-watching:

-- It was Sharat's Syndrome.

-- Soong once reprogrammed a PADD to open every security door in his compound. He was quite proud of that. (I would be too.)

-- T'Pol definitely said "Orion Syndicate."

-- Death toll for Eugenics Wars as given by Phlox was 30 million. This jibes somewhat with Spock's figure of 37 million for the "Third World War" from TOS "Bread and Circuses," although technically if one were rounding from that, it would be 40 million. (What's a million here, a million there? ) In TOS, the EW and WWIII were treated as the same conflict, though Riker's WWIII figure (600 million) was considerably larger.

-- The Orions utilize neurological inhibitor chips which induce convulsive seizures in the wearer to control their slaves. They also have a self-destruct feature a la Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace which prevents theft.

-- The Augments have a lifespan *double* that of contemporary (2150s) humans. Considering that the humans of the era apparently have significantly expanded lifespans themselves when compared to us, this could be a long time. I wonder if there are any of them still running around in TNG?

-- It occurred to me that the lead female Augment's name (Persis) may be a reference to Persis Khambatta, who played Lieutenant Ilia in TMP.

-- Minor VFX gaffe: At the end, after the Orion interceptors are said to have disabled the NX-01's warp nacelles, the external blue warp coil glow is still in full force.

-- Some little tiny pathetic geeky part of me is wishing Soong had said "Go home and start learning to speak Klingonese."

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
With this guy in the family you have to wonder if Noonien Soong's first name is just a coincidence
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
"In TOS, the EW and WWIII were treated as the same conflict"

This seems to me to be overstating the case a bit. I mean, yeah, Spock (and others) made several different "big war late in the 20th/early in the 21st century" references, with little distinction between them, but I don't think that's quite the same thing.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Trust me, I just got the TOS DVDs and rewatched "Space Seed" for myself. They specifically said that the last world war was the Eugenics Wars.

SPOCK: The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called world war.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course. Your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding...

People have come up with all sorts of rationalizations as to why this line doesn't mean that, but that was the original intent. It wasn't until TNG (and then, more specifically, FC) pegged WWIII as being in the 21st century that any distinction was made.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I suppose my point, though, is that you made it sound like there was some sort of consistancy between episodes on the matter.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Well, "Space Seed" gave the war a name and "Bread and Circuses" gave a death toll for it. But actually, in my initial post I was just commenting on the similarity of the figures from "Borderland" and "Bread and Circuses."

Now that I'm thinking about the subject though, I'll speculate a bit. Spock says in "Space Seed" that in 1993 a group of supermen (Augments) seized control of over 40 nations simultaneously, and that of these tyrants Khan was the last to be overthrown in 1996. However, he does not say that the Eugenics Wars did not extend beyond this. The tyrants seizing control and their subsequent defeat might be only one event in the ongoing wars. Colonel Green's early 21st-century genocidal war mentioned in "The Savage Curtain" and other WWIII events described in TNG might be extensions of the same conflict. Perhaps the overthrowing of the tyrants, who "offered the world order" according to Khan, served only to destabilize Asia and the Middle East and escalate whatever tensions were already in place there. Factions form and conflict spreads---since the genetic supermen are no longer directly involved, people stop calling it the Eugenics Wars and begin referring to it as WWIII---and all this eventually culminates in a nuclear exchange between the East and the West, as per First Contact, and the Post-Atomic Horror follows. (Apparently more acute in Asia than elsewhere as per "Encounter At Farpoint.")

The United States was apparently not involved in the wars until later, explaining the lack of evidence of them in "Future's End" (VGR), but later it gets drawn into it them and Archer's great-grandfather ends up fighting in North Africa. (There, this could even explain away people's gripes about him being too young to have been a soldier in the 1990s! )

That's probably all jumbled and not very eloquent, but it's 4:30 in the morning so cut me some slack.
 

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Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
How was Spock ever supposed to be the first Vulcan in Starfleet, given that the USS Intrepid was manned entirely by Vulcans?

Either he was one hellacious trendsetter who got surpassed by whoever was made captain of that ship, or else he was not in fact the first.

Given T'Pol, the latter makes the most sense, and the Intrepid crew supports that.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
The connection between EW and WWIII (or "The last world war") was indeed made in "Space Seed", as stated. And it's quite plausible that these could all be part of one continuous conflict, even though there is no active fighting in North America in the 2020s of "Past Tense".

However, it's also possible that the connection that Spock makes is false. Or at least a Vulcan interpretation that neither Kirk nor McCoy agrees with. Note that when Spock makes the claim, we get a reaction shot from Kirk, showing the captain clearly beduffled, perhaps even slightly amused. McCoy then chimes in, smiling and saying (with the tender tone reserved for correcting children) that Spock must have meant the Eugenics Wars. With this, Kirk breaks into a smile as well.

Now, does Kirk have some fond memories of those good old days or what? The only good reason for him smiling is that Spock made an "oops".

Remember that the entire teaser of "Space Seed" is dedicated to our heroes making erroneous statements one after another, and being proven wrong two seconds after finishing their lines. Spock thinks this can't be an Earthship. Kirk gets schadenfreude points when it is. Kirk says it's like DY-500. Spock makes his schadenfreude assault by going to painful detail about DY-100. McCoy says the life aboard is not human. Etc. Etc.

So interpreting Spock's line as untrue would nicely fit the spirit of the episode, if nothing else...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I would disagree as to the tone of the statement from McCoy. To me, it was clearly a confirmatory clarification, and I believe this was the intent of the writers.
 

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Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
 

quote:

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How was Spock ever supposed to be the first Vulcan in Starfleet, given that the USS Intrepid was manned entirely by Vulcans?

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Perhaps he was the first to graduate Starfleet Academy and move up the ranks from there?
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I'm left wondering if J.G. Hertzler's character was, perhaps, Commander Martok, great-great-grandfather of General/Chancellor Martok.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
The spellings are probably wrong, but here are some planets and other unmentioned terms:

Not sure if it was mentioned elsewhere, but the date was May 17, 2154

Cold Station 12 is where the embryos (as well as other diseases) are/were maintained.

Soong was arrested in 2144 - and obviously, 2134 was when he "gave birth" to his "children" - with some slight modifications to the Khan-type. The planet they were on was in the Trialis System.

The Klingon BofP has photon torpedos and wing mounted disruptors.

The Orion processing station was on Varix III.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
More than JUST wing-mounted disruptors.. Darn thing has turrets on either side of the nose, on the belly, and the usual wingtips! Visually, it's better armed numerically than its successors!

Anyone remember when the last timestamp was? Perhaps we can extrapolate how long they were in spacedock. It's been at least two weeks since T'Pol got married, since she stayed that much longer after Trip left. Trip COULD have stayed around a while to see more of Vulcan... Anyway, I'm sure it's been at least a month, probably two, since they got "Home". How much is a reasonable vacation time after saving the world, before you go back to work? Just long enough to fix the ship?

And I was HOPING for some promotions. I mean, you freaking SAVED THE WORLD. Should Mayweather and Sato still be ensigns for their contributions? I would hope to see those two plus Reed get a boost in rank - they could still maintain the chain of command this way.

And in yet another example of how Mayweather doesn't exist anymore, they gave this newbie lines and plot when they kidnapped him. He's a new ensign on board, and it's apparently his first deep-space assignment. He read every report on Enterprise, hoping it would prepare him - and of course it didn't. But you'd think reading all those reports of Archer getting captured or imprisoned or tortured would steel him a BIT, no?

Mark
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
There are distruptors on the nose? I thought there was just the belly and wing guns.

Anyway, Harry Kim never got promoted from ensign, so this is nothing new.
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
Anyone remember when the last timestamp was? Perhaps we can extrapolate how long they were in spacedock.

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Considering it took them one day to fix almost all damage...

And yes, BOP had disruptors on the nose as well.
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
The last date given was Zero Hour's Feb. 14, 2154 (well, it SHOULD have been 2154...)
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Hadn't we heard of the Trialis system before - in TNG I think. Maybe I'm thinking of Triolic waves... from "Time's Arrow" I think.

The T'Pol-doll scene was funny - where she was being put on display.

Other aliens in the market: I'm sure I saw a Nausicaan, and I DEFINATELY saw one of the blue, shrouded 'obscure' aliens from DS9's "Q-Less". (The one that bids on something in Quarks while the station is being pulled into the wormhole).

Also, Is Khan Noonien Singh and Noonien Soong being linked? Or is it a cooincidence? Is it the fact that Noonien Soong who built Data is so - clever - just like this geneticist? Maybe he (2154 Soong) swapped from Genetics to Robotics?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I thought it was NooniAn Soong, according to scripts. Mind you, the name could have easily been corrupted over two centuries. OTOH, why would Data's dad's dad (whoever that was - Noonian was about 90 when he died, says the script) name him after a nutjob from the 1990s?

Mark
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
...for the same reason anyone still names their children Adolf or Joseph today.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:

-A Y-class freighter is seen in orbit as Enterprise pulls in. I'm guessing that it's either an oversight, or a batch of humans in a piddly little warp 2 transport with one plasma gun can handle more than we are led to think in such hostile territory.

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Whats not to say the ECA or even independant humans trade with the Orions or are traders themselves? Captain Pike was portrayed as one, as well as the two fellows at his table, in "The Cage" and it didnt seem too out of the ordinary for them in the scenario.

Arik had an association with them, so they are known to be tolerant with humans, I'm sure, for a price.
 

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Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
 
Didnt Mayweathers family miss a rendezvous with an Orion Frieghter back in season 2?
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
That is indeed correct. Welcome to the board.
 

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Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
 
thanks been lurking for years, finally got off my keaster.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Supposedly, Roddenberry knew a guy named "Noonian Singh" or something similar during the war.

(The magazine article where I read this went on to claim that he named characters after that man because he had lost touch with him, and hoped that the guy would see his name on TV and give him a call, or something; but I don't know how much we should rely on half-remembered articles I read a decade ago.)
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I remember reading that somewhere too... and that the person never contacted him.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Anyone else pick out any aliens?? I thought one looked rather like the Xindi Reptilians - but different I think - trying to make milage out of the prosthetics?

There was a human-looking woman bidding... her nose was bajoran-esque but not bajoran - more like the noses from the 'drug' episode from Season 1 TNG.
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
These are called 'Westmore aliens'. They're made up of whatever's lying around.

I think I did spot a few of the 'silly hat aliens' from DS9. And a lot of people in robes. These might be related to the robed guys from "Journey to Babel". Or perhaps Landru wants some slaves.
 

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Posted by DoughBoy05 (Member # 1417) on :
 
I spy Tellarites and Naussicaans
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Big Show, the actor playing the Orion/T'pol puppetmaster, is a huge fusker! It was strange seeing him without his facial hair, and the green paint.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
"fusker"?
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
ok, why not spoil it for the kids.

I meant: "fucker".
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I see.

Verifications of spellings, etc., from the closed-captioning log:

Trialas (System where Soong raised the Augments.)

Verex III (Location of Orion slave-processing station.)

Neurolytic restraints (Soong's technical description of the slave-inhibitor chips.)

And the Orion auctioning T'Pol said she sold for "three million six" of an undisclosed unit of currency. This corrects my earlier post.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Well closed captioning isn't always right - I'd say it was 3 million 'secs' or something.
 

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
And three million six is a highly unlikely price for an auction.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Perhaps three million isiks, as in DS9 "Rivals"?

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
Well, it could be a currency that isn't worth alot, so three million six isn't what we'd think it is. I think the reason it doesn't show up on the captioning log is that the name of the currency was said during the jumble of speach, and wouldn't have been able to be captioned (without covering the whole screen with text)
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
In that scene where the BoP is docked to the Enterprise, can anyone get a rough guess as to the BoP's size? By itself, it looked smaller, but that scene made it look a lot larger to me. Would be interesting to compare it to the size (or sizes) of the movie+ BoP.

B.J.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
I thought it was roughly the size of the saucer of the Enterprise, which roughly and easily could work out to the classic 110m. But then again, I could just as easily be wrong.


By the way, I missed the 'teaser', how exactly was the BoP captured? And was there a feel for how large its crew was?
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Nice continuity if it is Isiks! And I did mention I saw that blue, shrouded alien from "Q-Less".
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Umm, isiks were used by an El-Aurian con man, a Ferengi bartender, and a con woman of unknown origin who tried to sell the Vlugta asteroid belt to the other two. Which of these applies here as a bridge of continuity?

In any case, it's better than quatloos...

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
...or credits.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"Which of these applies here as a bridge of continuity?"

Presumably all of them. Doesn't it count as continuity when they use the same term twice for a form of interstellar currency?
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Exactly - we don't know if the currency was solely El-Aurian, Ferengi or an Alien woman - one would assume that if they are all happy with the currency then it is an interstellar standard. Maybe the Alien woman was Orion (maybe just not a slave girl).
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
She, an Orion? That's borderline silly.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Futurama Guy:
I thought it was roughly the size of the saucer of the Enterprise, which roughly and easily could work out to the classic 110m. But then again, I could just as easily be wrong.


By the way, I missed the 'teaser', how exactly was the BoP captured? And was there a feel for how large its crew was?

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
I was just re-watching this episode last night and noticed that in one of the holding cages at the Orion processing station there was a Reman. No, not a Na'Kuhl or whatever Vosk's species was, but an unmistakable Reman. Just thought I'd mention it. Someone ought to be able to provide a cap if you don't believe me. It was in one of the wide/sweep shots where they pan to the right, showing multiple cages during the pass. He was in the first (leftmost) one, IIRC.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Ooh, gonna have to rewatch. While I'm fairly certain it's not intentional - typical Trek scripts are rarely so detailed - it'll certainly provide something for us to link into the upcoming Romulan arc.

Mark
 

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