I think the post war Starfleet is in for some major upheval. On one side the Picard type officers will want to return to an exploritory role, while other more conservative elements like Admiral Ross will advocate pumping funds into military projects (and perhaps even section 31) We have seen a truly devious side of this presumably exploritory agencyn (albeit clandestine elements), commiting acts of genocide against the founders, attempting to remove the Bak'Ku, bringing the Romulans into the war, as well as producing the Quadrants most powerfull warships. The season six episode 'sacrifice of Angels' was such a poignient title because the people sacrifycing their lives were scientists and explorers and didn't want to be in that situation, whereas the Red Squad mentality seems to be spreading throughout starfleet and turning it into an elite military order, bristling with Quantom torpedo's, regenerative shields, and backed-up by a KGB-like section 31. IF Picard and other like-minded officers take some kind of action, there could even be a full-scale internal conflict on the cards, dare i say it....civil war?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Great idea!!
-or-
Sound like it'd make a neat premise for Star Trek X, which is supposed to continue on from the events of Insurrection. Oh, wait. . .
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
It sounds like it would be interesting to watch. Star Trek is about people, after all, and it would be interesting to watch the dynamics between people following such a traumatic war: those who want to prevent another war by building up the military, and those who want to return to more peaceful pursuits. Maybe when the ruckus has died down, the next Star Trek will once again be about interesting people, rather than interesting visual effects...
Posted by Footrama Goo (Member # 968) on :
Don't feed the animals, son.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Ouch! Gul Madred simmer down! They can't take your eggs anymore!
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Thrawn:
quote:as well as producing the Quadrants most powerfull warships.
What, the Prometheus? Or do you mean because Janeway delivered a fast-food serving of phase torpedoes and generative ablative armor courtesy of teh future? I'm sure the guys on Earth promptly destroyed it because "humanity wasn't ready for that kind of power" and it would dishevel the balance of intergalactic martial power for future writers.
Bones McCoy:
quote:Star Trek is about people, after all, and it would be interesting to watch the dynamics between people following such a traumatic war: those who want to prevent another war by building up the military, and those who want to return to more peaceful pursuits. Maybe when the ruckus has died down, the next Star Trek will once again be about interesting people, rather than interesting visual effects...
M*A*S*H 2400! IT IS IN SPACE NOW.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
He might be refering to Gul Dukat's rant about one of the most heavily armed ships in the quadrant being in the hands of Maquis terrorists. Which was obviously a load of BS on the part of Dukat to in order to make himself seem even more taken advantage of. The Defiant consistantly proved to be durable and scrapy, but certainly nothing nigh-invulnerable.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
ANY ship that happens to be the centerpiece of a Trek show is AUTOMATICALLY invulnerable to everything but the self-destruct. I've seen other posters talking about Excelsior class vessels having their saucers melted after a couple of hits. But, of course none of their crews had their own series....
It is a MAJOR inconsistency within trek how little damages some ships take and others get pounded but don't show a scratch. I tried comparing this to WW2 U.S. Navy ships of similar class. Most notably the Yorktown class. Of the three ships of this class, one (Enterprise) took very few hits, had a stellar career and was, I believe, the most decorated warship in U.S. Naval history, One (Yorktown) was continually beat up and finally sunk at Midway, and the third (Hornet) was the launch platform for the Doolittle Raid, participated in the South Pacific before being severely damaged and finally sunk by her own escorts.
This is why it seems so unrealistic for a series ship to take pounding after pounding and cruise right through and sisterships to get annihilated in three salvos. To me, it always seemed that the TOS Enterprise was always vulnerable while the ships of the other series were "shields at 10%, rerouting plot device to deaux ex machina.... enemy destroyed... ship back to normal". Did anyone else ever truly feel that ANY of the other series ships were REALLY in danger of getting whacked for good?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well... the Defiant got whacked for good... Voyager got tore all to hell in Year of Hell.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Yeah I was thinkin about Dukat's comments but also Kira's that 'not even the Deffiant can take those kind of Odds' or something to that effect, implying its power. Plus it had engaged the Borg all the way from The Typhon sector to Earth, and as far as we know was the only ship still standing at that point. The Promethius is an animal by any standards, as (apparently) are the Akira class ships-according to their designer Alex Jeager anyway!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think there's any way to say how many of the ships present by the time the Borg got to Earth were first responders. I mean, presumably they were getting reinforcements the entire time, as fast as they could get there, but as to which ship arrived when? There's nothing to such speculation.
Re the relative power of various ships: Surely, even if Star Trek ships were real and we could go look up the exhaustive specifications, the question of "who would win in a fight" wouldn't be answerable just by those numbers. I mean, the Prometheus can outgun a couple Romulan Warbirds? OK. But whose officer culture pays the most attention to intelligence reports? Does the totalitarian nature of Romulan society bolster the morale of their crews or weaken them? And so on and so on forever.
Like, it depends on what you want to do with them, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Which goes back to Starfleet being a big organization with lots of room for diverse goals, I suppose.
(It is kind of interesting to think about, though. Real navies undertake scientific missions all the time, though usually with specific military goals in mind. ((Undersea topography, for instance.)) And I'd bet that the Napoleonic references Roddenberry drew on influenced Starfleet's hybrid status too, since such uses of military vessels were even more common then. NASA, of course, isn't in any hurry to arm their astronauts, but that's because they have an exceedingly small chance of being shot at; though NASA undertakes Defense Department missions all the time; less so these days, I gather, since the Air Force prefers to launch its own stuff. I suppose this is the time for an SG-1 reference; it even features a hybrid scientist-soldier. Or I guess two, really, though I am thinking more how Daniel started out as the smart guy everyone else had to watch out for, and now he is more often than not doing the heroic commando things himself. Incidently, Carter reminds me of what I was going to say originally, which is that I'd be less sorry ((in the, hey, these people sure didn't get what they bargained for sense)) for the "fighting scientists" than I would be the people who go to Starfleet Academy just because it is a good school, and who aren't looking to spend much time in Starfleet itself; but, then, there are plenty of real-world examples of that as well.)
[This is painfully nerdy.]
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I recently purchased some Next Gen DVD's recently and have been looking over them, and to be honest its pretty clear that Picard is not typical of Starfleet officers, in fact only Bashir seems to share his attitudes toward morals. Maddox's attempt to force Data into dissassembly, HaFtel's attempt to compel Data to surrender his daughter to starfleet, Jallico's comparison of Cardassians to timber wolves and his refusal to put any effort into negotiations, Maxwells anger management issues, Nacheyev's order to destroy the Borg at the next opportunity, Layton's attempted coup (supplimented by many other loyal officers) Sisco's deception to bring the Romulans into the war, Janeway allowing the Borg to beat 8472 just so her ship could pass through their space. Kirk's reference to Klingons as animals, Doughty's attempt (council backed!) to remove the Bak'ku, Ross's part in the probable execution of Cretak As locutus said "Picard would never have approved"
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: Plus it had engaged the Borg all the way from The Typhon sector to Earth, and as far as we know was the only ship still standing at that point.
Except for the tons of other ships buzzing around the area which were in alot better shape than the Defiant.
If you mean that the Defiant is the only ship that was mentioned early on and actually seen in the battle as it approached Earth, there's no evidence of that none of the other ships flying around hadn't been in the initial engagment too.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Fair comment, but the Deffiant we know was at the initial engagement in the Typhon sector and survived all the way to Earth. Likewise we know the Borg (like the Jem Hadar) prioritise their targets, this would explain why there were no Galaxies and why the admirals ship had been destroyed. IF the Deffiant is a warship, then the Borg would surely have been giving it special attention from the word go. On a different note its interesting that the Cube in first contact seems unable to lock onto any ships with a tractor beam but instead seems to be using conventional weapons (projectiles etc) surely a sign that starfleet had addapted its nutation techniques. The damage to the outer hull may also be a result of Quantum torpedoes, maybe these were the new weapons Shelby was talking about still being on the drawing board in the best of both worlds...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Borg had the Defiant in a tractor beam when the Enterprise arrived. The first thing they did was to take out the tractor beam holding the Defiant.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Let's go back to the officer portion of Starfleet and away from the shiny ships...
It would be interesting to see how Starfleet officers would deal with the Dominion War aftermath. The only clue would have been ST:X but unfortunately I was more interested in Troi's wedding and wedding dress than anything... most likely so were the entire TNG cast. But what would the DS9 command crew be like one year after the war? Kira more like a commander than when she originally appeared in the pilot. How is Bashir dealing with going back to regular medicine than being a field medic? Does Ezri know what she is doing on the station? Will Nog adjust well to being the first Ferengi in Starfleet and keep out of trouble? Will Quark finally go to jail?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
There are novels out there that take place on DS9/the Defiant after the war.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
You can see the change in Bashir in call to arms, 'not so boyish anymore' as Garak says. The post war Alpha Quadrent will indeed be an interesting place to be a fly on the wall, section 31 will undoubtedly have a lot to say about the shape of the post-war federation.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Why would that be? The postwar Feds seem to be more interested than ever in cooperation with former or current enemies, a position S31 in its so far known operations has chosen to oppose. Seems the Section either isn't actively interested in actual politics, or then isn't particularly empowered to affect them.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Section 31 went to great lengths to reshape the Romulan government before Shinzon undid all their good work, also the way they handled Admiral Ross was probably replicated with other officers, with it extending its influence among desperate people who would otherwise have gone after them with a vebgeance. 31 probably have a network of people throughout the quadrent bound to them for fear of blackmail or exposure just the way they have Ross by the balls
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ball squeezing must be the primary way to recruit for Section 31... So does that mean Ross is eternally screwed and will drop like a feather when they come asking for a favor?
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
I believe that's what I'm reading.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just a little spelling lesson Grand Admiral Thrawn... Sisko, S-I-S-K-O... def: A Starfleet Captain who survived the massacre at Wolf 359 while serving aboard the U.S.S. Saratoga, Commander of Bajoran and Federation run Space Station Deep Space Nine from 2369-2375. Last known where-abouts: unknown. The Bajoran official declaration is that he is "walking with the prophets". Survived by his two children and second wife, Captain Kasidy Danielle Yates Sisko.
Posted by FuturamaGuy (Member # 968) on :
how rather out of left field...
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I bow to your spelling prowess, we've all gotta be good at something, I want you to go right on quoteing regulations... Ross is deffo by the balls, 31 could expose his cooperation to the Romulans, 31 want to protect the Federation by any means, they may even see fit to provoke a war with the Romulans if it is in the long term best interests of the Federation, we could speculate that they used Cartwright in a similar way back in Star Trek six...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Something not being taken into account with these post-Deep Space Nine speculations on Section 31 is that their cover is effectively blown. Although not closure was given, it's possible that the body of a high-ranking Section 31 operative is still sitting in Deep Space Nine's morgue. The Federation Council knows that Section 31 created the Founders' Disease and used Odo to spread it. The command crew of Deep Space Nine knows this, and, thanks to Odo rejoining the Great Link, the Dominion knows this as well.
Now, the Federation Council decided against giving the cure to the Founders until Sisko forced them into it in "What You Leave Behind", so one could conceivably use that to argue against my coming point. However, considering the good PR the Federation likes to maintain, I'd imagine that there would be hearings into Section 31 now that the war is over. Hell, we saw them debating the Genesis Incident in The Search For Spock and this attempted act of genocide would surely be worth investigating (if not just for the general paranoia that the existence of such an organization as Section 31 would generate).
In the aftermath of such hearings, I doubt that Section 31 would remain the powerful organization it was (if it were to allowed to survive at all). An analogous situation would be the tightening of the reigns that Congress undertook with the CIA under Carter (I think -- whoever signed the bill outlawing political assassinations and whatever else the first President Bush complains about nowadays hampering the CIA's efforts). So, either Section 31 goes public and accepts some oversight, or the organization itself is broken down. In either case, it loses power and influence.
Now, on the flip side to that, a new organization could probably arise to assume the mission and methods of the old Section 31. In such a case, though, I think we're looking a new group needing a good amount of time to organize itself and begin exerting its power behind the scenes of the Federation again.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Thought it was interesting that when Bashir threatens to expose 31 Sloan says 'lets just say I won't lose any sleep over it' maybe this points to a new phase in the development of 31, that they are actually looking for more attention from the federation? Or at least they are prepared for the consequences.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Deffo by the balls"?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I think it's short/slang/British English for "definitely being held by the balls" based on the context.
I think Sloan was bluffing about not being afraid of Section 31 being discovered. The Federation lives for it's reputation of being "peaceful", "above the fray", and "gooder than a glass of apple cider with a twist of lemon". The Federation would be exposed as a hypocrit, and the wheels of the PR machine (not to mention the legions of politicians hoping to gain a name for themselves) will kick into overdrive.
Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :
To get back to something Thrawn was mentioning in his original post, I would certainly agree that there seems to be a clash of cultures within the Federation. And it's just not filmable, but the Jellico-red-state vs. left-of-Picard-blue-state tension (sorry, I don't see Picard as peacenik as some might) I suspect might run deeper than Starfleet. And I think the answer to Thrawn's question is not answerable given the series. Questions like these are not answerd within the military, they are handled by politics. (That's what politics is there for.) I think a case can be made either way.
One contingency is that the Federation wants to look inward, not unlike the United States in the wake of World War I's carnage. Keep our heads down, don't make waves, and we won't be perceived as a threat to anyone.
Another is that after 5 major galaxy-wide threats in less than 20 years, the Federation feels its survival can only be guaranteed through a more militaristic attitude. The best defense is a good offense.
...To say nothing of the fact of how different generations growing up before, during, and after these events interpret them and how they conflict wiht the assumptions of each. Look at how differently the geneations of WWII, Vietnam, and the Gulf War interpret the current war. A lot is going unsaid (and probably unknown) by the writers and producers.
I have to hand it to Thrawn! This is the most interesting question I've seen posted here in a while. But ultimately, I don't think it's one we can settle given 40 minute episodes light years from the arenas where these decisions are made.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)