In response to a recent interesting post regarding if the Q may have introduced the Feds to the Borg in order to inspire them to prepare for the coming dominion war. An interesting point and probably true, he scoffs at Picards insistance that they are prepared for whatever is out there, stating the Universe contains horrors to 'freeze your soul' (The Dominion?) At the end of all good things he leans over to whisper something in Picards ear, possably that the Human race is destined for greatness, if so this is probably why he saved them, or rather that he gave them the chance to save themselves.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Universe and Galaxy aren't the same thing. While we've not seen many of the "first ones" like depicted on Babylon 5, the Milky Way Galaxy in Trek has had its share of highly advanced beings. (Metrons, Melkots, Cytherians, Nagilum, etc...)
I always took Q's comment to refer to one of these types of beings somewhere in the universe. While the Dominion were doulbe-tough, they weren't vastly superior to the Alpha Quadrant races.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
It is unclear how anything Q has done would have been helpful for the Federation.
There is no observable difference in military preparedness between the pre-"Q Who?" and post-"Q Who?" Starfleet. We know of a few special weapon programs that were initiated as a direct response to the J-25 encounter, but all of those that we know of were aborted and played no role in Borg management, and ended up serving a truly minimal role in the Dominion conflict as well.
Also, we now know that Q's "introduction" was rather one-sided, with the Borg well aware of mankind even before the J-25 encounter, and with high odds that humans would have learned of them in some less than armageddonish manner soon enough. The "The Neutral Zone" events were a pretty close encounter already.
As TNG unfolded after "Q Who?", we got more and more evidence that Starfleet had actually been at war practically nonstop for the 24th century. Any "complacency" Q hints at would be of the kind where Starfleet thinks it is militarily invulnerable *because it keeps winning again and again*. And apparently the style of fighting that carried the Feds to victory in those wars was also the factor that led them to victory in the Dominion conflict. That, a little help from the Prophets, a ruthless application of bioweapons, and an inside agent in the Great Link. No evidence of Q affecting the events...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
Sound enough points, but the development of those special weapons probably included quantum torpedoes, ablative armour, and new shield technology. The Borg Cube in first contact seems unable to lock on to the federation ships with its tractor beam probably because of advances in shield technology, and instead seems to be using conventional weapons,(The deffiant only falling victim when its shields fail) likewise the cube suffers damage which it seems unable to regenerate from, possably quantum torpedo impacts. The development of the Akira's and the other new ship classes are probably a direct result of the J25 encounter. While the Feds have been at war, they were usually only border wars, Tallarians, Cardassians. Picard doesn't even like the idea of a war game with the Hathaway and only relents because of the Borg threat. So the initial Borg encounter seems to have produced a large shift in military thinking in Starfleet.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I imagine that when that episode was written, it was intended that the Federation had enjoyed a long peace (what with the Romulan withdrawal and peace accords with the Klingons). Probably the same intention that made the loss of 40 starships a big deal a year or two later. Then the future writers beefed up the Starfleet and galactic history quite a bit. Of course, the real world isn't as entertaining as Star Trek.
I agree with Timo that we didn't really see anything really beneficial come of Q's introducing the Federation to the Borg early. Quantum torpedoes may have been developed in response to the Borg threat, but we've only ever seen two ships use them: Defiant and Enterprise. The Sovereign-class was probably already on the drawing boards at the time; I suppose we could say some modifications could have been made in the aftermath of the J-25 incident to produce a more powerful vessel. I'd like to say that the Defiant was a direct result of J-25, but I can't remember if the Defiant was designed in response to that or to Wolf 359.
Obviously I'm ignoring the technology that makes a run of the mill Intrepid into a capable opponent for Borg ships here. Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I think the military mindset was not present in Starfleet until the encounter with the borg, wargames etc. Likewise Hansons comment that 'every admirals uncle had a take on this borg business' until a leutenant-commander (shelby) put them back on track. This could be taken as proof that Starfleet was so far removed from the military organisation it began to represent (deffiant, promethius, red squad) that the senior commanders themselves probably had no experiance of planning military operations. Surely their experience of this must have helped during the Dominion war.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Lakota also had quantum torpedos on board.
The Thunderchild had a registry of NCC-63549 meaning the Akira Class predated the Galaxy Class and was not an outgrowth of military upsizing after J-25.
Q states pretty clearly that without the Q, the Federation would've been assimilated by the Borg, and he was offering that as evidence in a hearing.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: The Thunderchild had a registry of NCC-63549 meaning the Akira Class predated the Galaxy Class and was not an outgrowth of military upsizing after J-25.
Not to get into this again, but
"The Thunderchild had a registry of NCC-63549" True.
"...meaning the Akira Class predated the Galaxy Class" Suposition masquarading as fact. Yes, registry numbers do seem to be fairly chronological, but there are a million and one reasons as to why the FC ships might have low registries but be newer than the Galaxy. Good arguments can be made both ways.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Right. And no, I'm not trying to start that argument again. All I'm saying is that simply because we saw these ships for the first time in FC, doesn't mean they're all brand spanking new. And to me, the fact that the creators of the ship gave it a lower registry indicates they didn't mean for them to all be as new as the Sovereign either.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Like the Prometheus?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I hate to have to do this, but seeing as how ENT really is canon, we can't really ignore it. So here's my retro-rationalization for the events of "Q-Who?" and just how Q saved the Federation:
Thanks to the events of ENT's "Regeneration", the Borg received the transmission from the past, containing nothing but a set of coordinates, and decided to send a cube to go see what was there. (Note that this could've happened even years before the Hansens started their stupid little survey.)
So, the Borg were already on their way to invade the Federation when Q plopped the Enterprise-D into the cube's path in "Q-Who?". Therefore, Q saved the Federation by giving them advance warning of the inevitable attack.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
i believe the encyclopedia or something indicates that the Borg were in fact on a course for federation space at that point.
Problem is... after q flung the Ent D way out there, didn't they find a planet that showed signs of assimilation? indicating the Borg had already been there as well as along the Romulan Neutral Zone. The Borg are apparently in no hurry, though, so they may have been goign kind of back and forth. Assimilating along the way.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Problem is... after q flung the Ent D way out there...
q? Q's son? Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The Neutral Zone mentioned colonies along both sides of the Zone scooped off their planets. In Q-Who they encountered a planet which also had chunks of it scooped up. It was commented that it was "Just like those along the neutral zone" or some such. Best of Both Worlds also had the scooped up colony at the begining.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah I remeber that in TNG, the Borg had a habit of scooping up pieces of planets to assimilate, which is funny since we didn't see any of that on Voyager. Personally, I think it weird the Borg would do that since it would be easier just to send down a sh*t load of drones to assimilate the whole thing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they "scoop" up chunks o' planets to fabricate new Cubes (I cant imagine the borg have traditional shipyards).
The Cube from the "J-System" may have held unique technology that was recently assimilated- that would explain it's appearance and it's subspace field (that the later cubes seem to lack).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Wasn't it also bigger than the Voyager cubes?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I think even the BoBW cube was smaller, for some reason...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It just looked larger: the Tactical Cube, for example, is so lacking in detail that it seems like a small child's block.
Or mabye the Borg just diminished so much as a threat as Voyager wore on that the cubes seem insignifigant. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Its not like Star Trek is all that consistant with ship scale Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah, the Klingon Bird-of-Prey has like 5 different sizes.
Posted by missmanners (Member # 1523) on :
I used to spend a long time on this page trying to figure it all out.
mm
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
There are some debatable ship sizes there, though I agree with his KBOP.
Posted by missmanners (Member # 1523) on :
I just like to click and drag them around.....is that really nerdy?
mm
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Only if you take the TOS Enterprise and fly it toward the planet killer while making the "duh duh" music sound with your voice.
Oh, wait...
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The Borg were handled pretty badly after the next generation. The Best of Both Worlds is the finest 90 minutes if television I have ever seen and the reason I fell in love with the franchise. It (and the Borg) followed the x-files maxim that sometimes what you don't see is more scary than what you do. Having a more limited budget and efects technology than First Contact and Voyager, they depended on the old fashioned technique of great writing. The Scene with Picard pacing up and down, asking worf to set course to intercept, then worf saying "they have already changed cource to intercept us" all the time taking the power to influence events out of the Federations hands. The site of Hanson's bridge shaking before being cut off, and a shake of the head from data was far more effective than any Borg battle scene. Likewise pieces of dialogue like "Its a shot in the dark, but for now its the best we can do." "maybe in concert with the photon torpedoes we can slow them down" "perhaps this is the end of our civilisation?" "I've heard people talkingin ten forward, they expect to be dead this time tomorrow" The Borg and their threat were introduced with scalpel like efficiency by the next gen writers, in stark contrast to Voyager's "fifteen cube's heading this way all looking very big and tough" Or the redesigned Borg with wires hanging from rotting skin, and their resident evil style zombie walks and flashing laser lights... The next gen was high art...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You've aparantly missed abot half of TNG.
The Child, Metamorphasis and all of first season are about as far from "high art" as concievable.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Only if you take the TOS Enterprise and fly it toward the planet killer while making the "duh duh" music sound with your voice.
Oh, wait...
hmmm... would the SDF-1 transformed... gets stuck?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: You've aparantly missed abot half of TNG.
The Child, Metamorphasis and all of first season are about as far from "high art" as concievable.
Don't forget "Shades of Grey." Whoever thought a clip show would be a good episode needs to be shot.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(In that case "cheap" trumped "good" in the production calculus by, like, a lot.)
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
And not just an episode... a season finale. Outstanding.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Most of season seven is just as unwatchable. That "scottish ghost story" episode with Dr. Crusher is the very worst thing to ever bear the Trek title.
Worse by far than Spock's Brian or anything Voyager related.
Descent is also extremely ill-concieved.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Yeah, "Sub Rosa" didn't do much for me (especially the fact the Crusher was about to boink someone that boinked her grandmother, her great-grandmother... her n(great)-1-grandmother, and n(great)-grandmother). That was icky. I wasn't really thrilled with "Phantasms" or "Bloodlines", either. However, season seven did have some good episodes like "Preemptive Strike", "The Pegasus", "Parallels", "The Gambit", and "All Good Things...".
I thought the first half of "Descent" was pretty all right as far as season finales go, but I think the ball was dropped on the second half. Overall, though, I think "Descent" worked better as a season ender/beginner than "Time's Arrow" (which, in my opinion, ranks just barely ahead of "Shades of Grey").
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I tend to see TNG as a remarkably flexible show. Transcending from the idealist early-eighties scifi, to somewhat more "archish" late-eighties stuff heavy with personal drama like Worf's growing role, to soap riding almost solely on the characters for the final years, the show actually kept up with the times.
It just happened that the best results could be achieved at the interface between the early-eighties and early-nineties styles, literally by taking the best of both worlds. Which goes to show that emergent phenomena can be much greater than the sum of their parts...
OTOH, I loved "Sub Rosa".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Descent sucks so hard because Picard is so tactically incompetant that he should have been court-marshalled. Evacuate the Enterprise to find ONE crewman? Leave the inexperienced CMO in charge with a bunch of newbies with no combat experience?
Really, if that were in a Trek novel I was reading, I'd probably throw it away without finishing it. Descent also marked the real begining of the pussification of the Borg.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Based on "Thine Own Self", it's implied that Crusher has routinely taken the bridge watch on the Enterprise during her tenure on the ship. She says to Troi that she wanted to do some command stuff on the side, so she took the bridge officer's exam to make commander and do it. Besides, Picard's orders to Crusher were to get the Enterprise back to Federation space at the first sign of the Borg. If anyone should be courtmartialed, it should be Crusher for disobeying orders.
Of course, it would be improper for to state that "Thine Own Self" was sixteen episodes after "Descent". Conceivably, the bit about Crusher's bridge watching could have been been written in based solely on criticism of her taking command in "Descent". The internet didn't exist back then, so I have no idea if this is really the case.
As for searching for Data, keep in mind that the one crewman they were searching for had just about every Federation and Starfleet databank in his head. Add to this that he was in the hands of the Federation's greatest enemy (the ultimate evolution of the stereotypical 1980s computer geek) and that he apparently went willingly to them. Look at the damage the Borg did to the Federation with just the limited information in Picard's head.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Didn't she say she started doing nightwatch BECAUSE of Descent? Or am I remembering wrong
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Troi wanted to take the bridge offer's test because of her lack of mojo during Conundrum. Beverly just wanted to stretch herself, I think.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The thing that sucked about a lot of the seventh season (and, quite annoyingly, the very reason why one of my best friends likes it so damned much) is the presence of so many "House of Horrors" episodes. Braga seems to enjoy that stuff a lot. Too much.
However, as pointed out above, there were still a number of good episodes even that late in the game.
I certainly wouldn't consider TNG high art, but then I really wouldn't consider any Star Trek (with the possible exceptions of The Motion Picture, "The Cage," and maybe one or two others) to be such.
Yeah, "Shades of Grey" was kind of disappointing as a finale, but I didn't think it was a major suckfest. We should be grateful that they managed to produce a script at all, given the writer's guild strike.
For some reason, "Time's Arrow" was always a favorite of mine among the finales, I'm not sure why people don't like it. Remind me why people like "The Best of Both Worlds" so much, again? (I always felt that the subesequent episodes dealing with its consequences were much more captivating.)
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Time's Arrow suck mainly because the cast is completely nonplussed at having traveled back in time.
There was more amazment at many holodeck recreations of the past than actually being there.
Picard was an idiot in Descent because he evecuates his ship of almost everyone to a planet where scanning is nil and the Borg are probably present. Pretty dumb.
As to data having the secrets o' the Federation in his head, sure. As though the Borg care about such things (and they already have Picard's experiences saved on a floppy somewhere anyway- what use is a "primitave artificial organism" like data?).
Again, the Borg show up and no one seems really too worried. It's sad, but Johnathan Frakes delivered the best acting (besides Data, I guess) of that two parter (and he has the smallest role!).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I rememebr watching the first part of Time's Arrow and being all excited about finding out how Guinan fit into the whole thing. Me and my friends were all debating about how she ended up in the past and what she was doing there.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It had Mark Twain!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Time's Arrow suck mainly because the cast is completely nonplussed at having traveled back in time.
I was just disappointed that there was no attempt to protect the timeline. All the souls that the snake people consumed just up and disappeared with no consequences, and one of them could have been Sulu's ancestor. They flashed their 24th century wares without much concern for what it might do. They let Mark Twain know everything about the future.
Minor things that bugged me included Data's head still being intact and usable after 500 years in a cave and 90% of the senior staff just wandering into the temporal anomaly without knowing what it'll do.
quote:As to data having the secrets o' the Federation in his head, sure. As though the Borg care about such things (and they already have Picard's experiences saved on a floppy somewhere anyway- what use is a "primitave artificial organism" like data?).
Because Data, being an android with a nifty positronic brain, has more information about the Federation and Starfleet stored in him than Picard, being a simple human, could ever hope to remember? Also, it more than likely that everything Picard knew was changed in the aftermath of Wolf 359 for security reasons. Besides, this particular group of Borg were interested in becoming completely artificial (thanks to Lore's leadership).
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I was in the most part referring to the Next Gen's treatment of the borg, Descent doesn't really count as they weren't the collective. Anyone who doesn't think the Best of Both Worlds was awesome television deserves to spend some time in the shower rooms with a gang of Jem Hadar. My argument centred around the fact serious thought went into developing the aura of the Borg with simple dialogue rather than large action set pieces as seen in Scorpions. I felt the franchise used the Borg as a cheap way of pleasing the fans, with no real thought going into the stories rather than they were counting on the fact that it was 'the borg'. The writers began to use them the way the producers of a game show use a large-breasted assistant, to appeal to viewers who didn't particularly want to think much when they were watching something, but which anyone with experience of better television would find both overstated, vulgar, and highly patronising. At no point in Scorpians was the viewer or the crew led to believe they were in serious danger, yet in the for mentioned, who didn't get serious palpatations when Riker demanded?
"Mister Data your final report? [computer voice] outer hull failure [Data] Standby [Riker]I can't Standby Mr Data! [computer voice] Decompression danger"
A level of tension achieved without the need for fifteen cubes destroying planets....
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I don't quite soo how any of the victims of the soul-gobblers could have made further contribution to history. They were all dying already, weren't they?
Also, it would have been embarrassing for Soong if a head built by him did not survive for 500 years. The profilic TOS androids were way older than that... And they had lived active lives, not been idled in a sheltering cave.
Overall, I find "Time's Arrow" rather forgettable - but then again, I don't see why our heroes should consider it memorable or momentous, either. I rather liked Data's "fish in the water" act when stranded in the past, as it echoed the absurd professionalism of our TOS heroes in similar situations.
"Descent" sucked because it *should* have been more momentous than that. It was "big" in all the wrong places, and "small" in all the wrong ones, too. As an incidental Borg story, it might have worked just fine, like "I, Borg" did. As a season-spanner, it just didn't carry.
I wonder if Q could have carried a two-parter other than "Farpoint" and "AGT.."?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
AGT was'nt really a two-parter though: when watched that way, it's pretty bad.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Q carried some of the one-hour eps he was in, but there's only so much dramatic mileage you can get out of an omnipotent being. Q-Who was good. Q-pid was ok for a comedy episode, but fairly suckable other than that. Tapestry was probably one of the better Q episodes, although in the end, we're not even really sure it was a Q episode. The ep where he becomes mortal also rocked.
I actually rather enjoyed the one DS9 episode he was in with Vash. Nice tie-in to TNG too. I guess the writers decided Q and Sisko didn't make very watchable adversaries, though.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Gotta love the lines
Q: "You hit me! Picard NEVER hit me?"
Sisko: "I'm NOT Picard."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm very glad Q was left out of DS9 after his only appearance.
Even moreso than the Borg, the concept of Q was whittled down into non-threatening comedy relief on Voyager.
I can honestly say that after watching about half of the abyssimal "Q and the Grey", I turned it off and made point of missing any further episodes with Q. (I'd already missed a couple at that point).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"the concept of Q was whittled down into non-threatening comedy relief on Voyager."
Concur. He never did anything remotely serious or important after Deathwish. The whole idea of the Continuum being in trouble and needing Voyager's help to put it write was kinda silly. Q wanting to shag Kathy was kind of funny... in the same vein as him palling around with Picard in True Q (which was also a decent episode).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think Q lends himself to further stories more than the Borg, though. Or at least on first pass. I mean, the problem with the Borg is that they are by definition unstoppable, which makes them cool, but for the show to continue the Borg have to be stopped. (Of course, one could always write a story that didn't involve the Borg trying to destroy Our Heroes, thus allowing for various other plot resolutions, and if you think about it that's sort of what "Scorpion" did, and is one of the things that makes the episode OK in my mind. ((Plus, as much as I can look back and realize that it was just another step down the road of Borg toothlessness, that opening scene worked exactly as it was meant to on this young fan.)) I also liked when that cube unceremoniously yanked Voyager out of orbit with a tractor beam.) Anyway, Q, on the other hand, in his sort of Loki/Coyote role, need not present himself as an adversary to be defeated.
(And I sure wish we would have gotten a Q-related movie out of TNG, though I am admittedly at a loss as to what the plot might be.)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: I was just disappointed that there was no attempt to protect the timeline. All the souls that the snake people consumed just up and disappeared with no consequences, and one of them could have been Sulu's ancestor.
But the episode was operating on the principle of predestination...Data addressed that in the opening when they found his head. Everything that happened had *always* happened that way.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not that time-travel had ever worked on that premise in Trek before...
Voyager would have worked just fine -Borgwise- if Voyager was always overwhelmed and fleeing from Borg assimilation.
It would have been nice to see voyager lose some crewmembers along the way... Instead, the tiny Intrepid class ship managed- on a weekly basis- to destroy borg cubes and thwart the every two dimensionally evil) Queen at every turn.
Man, that Voyager played out it's seven season and Enterprise got cancelled is the real tragedy.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Not that time-travel had ever worked on that premise in Trek before...
Well yeah, but that kind of made it nice and fresh.
quote:Voyager would have worked just fine -Borgwise- if Voyager was always overwhelmed and fleeing from Borg assimilation.
I think that might have gotten old and overly-drawn out. It would have gotten unbelievable that they would always escape somehow. Of course, that became a factor anyway...
quote:It would have been nice to see voyager lose some crewmembers along the way...
Agreed.
quote:Man, that Voyager played out it's seven season and Enterprise got cancelled is the real tragedy.
Amen to that. Fuckers. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Not that time-travel had ever worked on that premise in Trek before...Well yeah, but that kind of made it nice and fresh.
[quote]Voyager would have worked just fine -Borgwise- if Voyager was always overwhelmed and fleeing from Borg assimilation.
I think that might have gotten old and overly-drawn out. It would have gotten unbelievable that they would always escape somehow. Of course, that became a factor anyway...
quote:It would have been nice to see voyager lose some crewmembers along the way...
Agreed.
quote:Man, that Voyager played out it's seven season and Enterprise got cancelled is the real tragedy.
Amen to that. Fuckers. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I don't know what was up with that weird, one-minute-delayed double post... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:[quote]Voyager would have worked just fine -Borgwise- if Voyager was always overwhelmed and fleeing from Borg assimilation.
I think that might have gotten old and overly-drawn out. It would have gotten unbelievable that they would always escape somehow. Of course, that became a factor anyway...
Consider though: they could have had a "season in hell" and they would have been pushed to break the Prime Directive here and there....untill they cleared Borg space.
Later, when they run into Captain Ransom, they would be confronted with a possible version of themselves...instead of the impossibly well maintained crew and ship Voyager (with endless torpedos, antimatter and shuttles!) was: instead of looking down their noses at the Equinox crew, there would have been some sympathy.
Not that we ever heard anything about the Equinox's crew again anyhow... Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Hey man, I agree totally that there were many aspects of VGR that weren't well-thought-out or well-executed. No question.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...yet, it did have a few shining moments.
I would'nt mind seeing it return to syndication here (or on Spike TV) to catch some of the episodes I missed.
Yes, I'm that starved for Trek in the TNG era.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hey anybody remeber the wimpy Borg from "Regeneration" who couldn't withstand a couple of hits from a primitive 22nd century Art Asylum phase pistol and who's ship got totaled by a couple spatial torpedoes(what ever happened to those anyway).
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
They sit around the armoury not getting used
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
They make excellent cover for shoot-outs in the armory.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
In their defense, they'd been on ice for a century and the ship they were in was cobbled together from some alien frieghter.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
I never caught a great deal of Enterprise so I'm willing to be educated... I don't wanna go on a voyager rampage here but many of the problems with the Star Trek franchise as a whole I think stem from the fact that the top brass look down on us. They think they can put minimum production effort into a project because they will always have a fan base that will return again and again no matter how bad the product is. Why was TNG so well written and produced in an age when sci fi competition on TV was virtually nil? Because there were people around who took pride in what they were churning out. Enterprise was put out before any lessons from Voyager were learned for the simple reason that no one cared what those lessons were. "F*ck it, They'll keep coming back for more, they're hard core fans!"
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
There are plenty of stinker TNG episodes, especially in the early seasons. If the entire franchise had been judged by those episodes, TNG may not have made it 7 years.
As it stands, those episodes were accepted because there had been no new Trek on television in roughly 20 years. Starving people take anything.
Or, like any child, you crawl before you walk. TNG and the entire franchise grew over time. ENT episodes may be just as good at TNG episodes, but they should show the maturity the franchise has developed.
Which brings us back to Thrawn's point about TPTB just shoveling out whatever. The time for that has past.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
There was a point?
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
"Oh you can run all the way to the Niybarite alliance, but it really doesn't matter, a foul mouthed little girl who chats sarcastic nonesense...thats what you are...and thats what you'll always be..." sisco-worf with minor mods.
Wasn't talking about the individual episodes because as i was man enough to admit i haven't seen many, and unlike some i won't comment on things just for the sake of it. But the idea of producing a new show at all when interest was on the decline seemed obsurd, a last dash to squeeze money from a loyal fan-base. The few episodes i did see also seemed quite gimmick-driven, intended to appeal directly to that fan base rather than blaze a new trail of its own and win new fans. "wow, an Orion animal woman just like in the Cage" Likewise the appearance of Jolene Balok on the cover of various publications with titles like "the final frontier just got sexier" gave me cause for concern. I began to fear for the franchise as a whole just before the second series of Voyager aired on British TV, i used to subscribe to the official UK star trek mag, and it printed what a mounted to a full-page apology from Jeri Taylor. It was a photo of her sitting in the captains chair with a full page verbatum quote saying things like, "our heroes are going to stop complaining about getting home and will instead embrace this wonderous new challenge the way starfleet officers should" "please stick with us as next season promises so much more" Oh dear, I thought... DS9 was kept alive by the sterling work of Ira Stephan Behr whose run-ins with Berman are well documented, no doubt if he'd gone, it too would have been dumbed down to saturday morning cartoon material.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: Likewise the appearance of Jolene Balok on the cover of various publications with titles like "the final frontier just got sexier" gave me cause for concern.
So the appearance of Tricia Helfer on the cover of the latest issue of a magazine with similar titles is giving you cause for concern about the new Battlestar Galactica?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'll bet your mommy thinks it's pretty cute when you quote script dialogue in daily conversation. I think it's pretty moronic.
You weren't whining about Enterprise, you were whining about Voyager and the franchise. And there was no point to what you're saying that hasn't been made a billion zillion times before. Yes... Voyager was mostly dreck. Yes... the stories could have been better. Yes, most people agree that more thought should've gone into various aspects of recent franchise productions. Yes........
The appearance of actresses like Jolene Balok (or Blalock as she's known in many areas) on Sci-Fi magazines has nothing to do with the Star Trek franchise in most cases. It has to do with GeekZines trying to sell their magazines and the actress making a quick buck by posing for photos, which incidentaly was her job before she started acting.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
She's actually a puppet controlled by Clint Howard!
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to be drawn into a slanging match on a message board" Colonel Nathan R Jessop, commanding officer marine ground forces guantanamo bay, Cuba. (My mum thinks its hillarious)
I don't doubt similar issues have been raised, however the current Star Trek franchise being the real world equivalant of a post-war cardassia, whats the harm in raising further points, or shall I instead post a question asking for screenshots of an original series klingon spacecraft that resembled a yellow smudge? If you don't wanna discuss it my son feel free not to!
So it wasn't Paramount policy to sex-up Star Trek? Anyone remember a Berman quote where he was being asked about possable future film plots (even though Nemesis had just burned) where he said something along the lines of..."Maybe a mixed cast from the various shows is something we might look at in the future, I don't think Ben Sisko would work in a feature (why not?) but I can't imagine anyone wouldn't want to see Jeri Ryan on the big screen" Erm, is that because she's an awesomely gifted actress or because the character is both original and much loved? The franchise is indeed in safe hands with such a genius at the helm...
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
What show doesn't use sex appeal?
Watch the camera shots when they pan over actors and actresses. The cameras linger on female characters. They also tend to do a pass over the entire female body. Case in point: Can't remember which TNG episode it is but Geordi, Troi and either Worf or Data are climbing up a Jefferies tube. The scene shows Geordi from head to waist, the next make from head to waist and Troi from head to TOE.
I've noticed the same treatment on Law and Order.
Some shows may not always be as blatant about their use of sex, but it seems they all do.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Everyone complains about overdoing sex appeal on Voyager and Enterprise but they seem to forget that sexy women was what TOS was all about. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
A "slanging match"?
"I'll see your 'what up, dawg?' and raise you a 'yo, biotches!'."
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
1. Ultimate slang database! 2. Herb's right, Star Trek without sexy women is like Earth without an oxygen atmosphere-dead. 3.I don't know about sexy women in Law&Order, but I do like a woman who can convict a suspect of a double homicide!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: 3.I don't know about sexy women in Law&Order, but I do like a woman who can convict a suspect of a double homicide!
I personally don't find Bebe Neuwirth all that sexy, but i couldn't help how the camera seemed to favor her and the other ADA with a nice leggy camera shot.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: So it wasn't Paramount policy to sex-up Star Trek?
See... a large chunk of your problem is that you don't actually read what anyone writes. What media outlet are you a journalist for? I hope you're not a fact checker. I never said anything about Paramount's policies. I said actresses appearing on sci-fi geek magazines had nothing to do with the franchise.
And no, Star Trek never eVar made use of sex before Seven of Nine's huge breasteses. The mini-skirts on TOS... the Mirror Universe's bare tummys... the Orion Slave Girls. Even TNG with its high art genius never used sex as a ploy. The Edo certainly weren't being used that way. Nor was Yar's happy Data outfit in "The Naked Now".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"never eVar"
(Thought for a few seconds: I've never noticed Burton-directed episodes being more or less sexy than any others.)
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
"What a blind, narrow view you have, what an arrogant man you are" Madred-Picard
Yes Star Trek has in the past used sex, however not at the expense of stories and quality writing. At no point did the great bird say "Forget my vision of the future, we've got Janice Rand in a mini skirt" I believe the proucers of TNG considered outfitting the hedonistic EDO in Levi jeans but were thwarted by a last minute lawsuit from the manufacturers...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Dude... it's been a month. I don't care anymore.
Wait, let me guess... "Time has no meaning here." Guinan-Picard
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Brain and brain; what is brain?" Sam Picard.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In view of the generally increasing amount of traffic in the forum, I think some pruning can again be practiced...
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