I was doing some thinking on the Nebulaseen in Star Trek: First Contact today and had an interesting new idea that I'm hoping someone may be able to help assess the the validity of. But first, some recapping...
1. Recall that, at least according to the book mentioned by Veers in this post, the Nebula in question has been referred to as the Farragut behind the scenes.
2. Okuda has confirmed that the model was relabeled as the U.S.S. Leeds NCC-70352 for its appearance in the re-done opening credits at the beginning of DS9 Season Four. This is borne out by photos such as this one and this one.
The thing that I noticed was that both reference shots of the Leeds, the only ones that I have ever seen, are of the model seen from below. This is also the angle from which the model was shot for the DS9 credits. So I was thinking: What if they only ever relabeled the underside, leaving the top (and perhaps nacelle pylons) labeled as the Farragut?
I guess what I'd like to know is whether or not anyone has seen the model (or a photo of it) from above, or has otherwise identified Leeds signage anywhere but on the saucer underside.
-MMoM Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
After a quick search, I have found some evidence for your claim. On Bernd's site, there are two pics of the Farragut model: this one, of the underside of the model but with no name or registry, and this one, from the same model yet with a name and registry labeled on the top of the saucer.
Curiously, in the second Leeds pic you have a link to, there is a label underneath it saying "U.S.S. Phoenix (aka Farragut)." Very strange.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I did find it interesting that the Leeds labeling included both registry AND name on the saucer underside, which is unusual. (IIRC, typically only the registry is present, if anything.)
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
So it may be that the Farragut never had a label on the underside, and without changing anything else, the Leeds was created adding the label there? And since it would have been boring to have a ship with just a number, it was decided to add the name to the underside too. Sounds reasonable.
Regarding the sign on the exhibition, it may have been labeled "Phoenix" because the name was deemed more prominent than the class name, or because whoever made the label was not aware of the class name. But why "Farragut"? I have the impression that the model came in a box, upside up, and no one saw that it was the Leeds on the underside.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I have uncovered evidence which invalidates my theory. The pics here and here show the model with the Leeds' registry on both the nacelle pylons and aft pod pylon, where Farragut labels used to be. There is no shot showing the dorsal saucer surface, unfortunately, but I doubt that they would change all the labels *except* that one.
More likely, the use of "the Farragut" is merely internal VFX company jargon, in line with David Stipes calling the Miranda "the Reliant" and the Galaxy "the [Enterprise] D" and such. In this case, ILM had just extensively and prominently refurbished the model as the Farragut for the previous film, so it makes sense that they would use that designation.
And perhaps this is all for the best, given that FC takes place after "...Nor the Battle to the Strong" (DS9), in which the Farragut was said to have been destroyed by the Klingons!
-MMoM
[Sorry for stirring this all up again...not really, you fuckers! Muahahahahahahaha!!]
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
So. . . we might as well just say that it was the Leeds at Sector 001?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Not completely safely. After all, the ST:FC ship is only seen from the one angle where we don't know for sure that the pennants were changed - the dorsal side!
But yeah, it seems likely that despite those references, there was no Farragut in ST:FC, merely a model of the "Farragut type" = Nebula class, and very probably labeled Leeds.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think we'd have to agree that since they'd bother to change the pennants for such a distant appearance when the original Farragut livery didn't show up onscreen in a much closer look, says they wouldn't leave the dorsal signage unchanged.
And I'd like to hear opnions on Mim's question about what actually DOES appear on the ventral? Because I'm sure I've seen other ships with name and registry on the saucer underside. The Challenger in "Timeless?"
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Yes, the Challenger did have it, and most likely all the labeled CGI Galaxies and Nebulas.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The USS Galaxy itself had both, as I recall.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Nope. And neither did the Phoenix or the Prometheus, although the latter two were both the physical model.
The Leeds and the Challenger are actually the only two exceptions that I can think of off the top of my head. Although, the movie-era ships had names on the opposite side of their ventral saucers, facing aft.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Excelsior and Enterprise both have the ship's name on the ventral saucer- it's just behind the lower sensor (and facing the ship's hull for some reason).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
As superbly exemplified by that last image he linked to.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Er...yeah! Tha's what I meant....(hic!)...I'm shober offisher!
Somehow I missed that second half of his post. Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I believe the USS Venture also sports the underside name near the registry.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Ah yes, you are correct.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
So, to sum up we're saying here that:
- The Nebula model was refurbed for its single dorsal shot in "Generations". It was labeled only on the dorsal half plus pylons.
- In the intervening time, the model was re-detailed on the ventral side (only?) for its appearance as Leeds in the DS9 opener. It could still say Farragut on top, thus sourcing this confusion.
- Subsequently, the model is used in "First Contact" but without any re-labeling, as they knew it would be only in the background. For all we know, it STILL says Farragut on top and Leeds on the bottom, as the model was replaced by the various CG models after this. The Vegas folks only paid attention to the LARGE name on the top and not the tiny one on the bottom when mounting the model, and so labelled it according to its first appearance as Phoenix and what they read.
Next - someone track the lineage of the Miranda model.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: So, to sum up we're saying here that:
- The Nebula model was refurbed for its single dorsal shot in "Generations". It was labeled only on the dorsal half plus pylons.
quote:- In the intervening time, the model was re-detailed on the ventral side (only?) for its appearance as Leeds in the DS9 opener. It could still say Farragut on top, thus sourcing this confusion.
That's what I *was* saying, but I found evidence to the contrary. So I'm not saying it anymore.
quote:- Subsequently, the model is used in "First Contact" but without any re-labeling, as they knew it would be only in the background. For all we know, it STILL says Farragut on top and Leeds on the bottom, as the model was replaced by the various CG models after this. The Vegas folks only paid attention to the LARGE name on the top and not the tiny one on the bottom when mounting the model, and so labelled it according to its first appearance as Phoenix and what they read.
It's not impossible, but the pics I found showing the Leeds' registry on the pylons and pod make it seem unlikely. Especially since Okuda never mentioned anything about it when he gave us the Leeds' information.
-MMoM Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, seeing if the model was labeled as both Farragut and Leeds, and the Farragut was destroyed by the time of FC, then I'm perfectly happy to accept it was the Leeds at the battle.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm sticking with my original supposition. The handlers of the model saw only "FARRAGUT" pasted across the upper hull, and stuck with that. The folks who actually DID the detailing may not have been informed of exactly what the VFX shot would be except in the broad strokes, i.e. upper half, lower half, etc.
So, knowing that Farragut would've been seen from above, they didn't bother labeling the bottom of the saucer (but they did do the pylons). Likewise, when the detail guy got the memo that they'd need the Nebula model shot from below for the new DS9 opener, they re-did the bottom, pylons, and other smaller details without knowing how far away the ship would be in the shot, etc. The ship could thus still say "FARRAGUT" across the top.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
ATTENTION ALL POSTERS! I NOW ANNOUNCE THAT I AM FLIP-FLOPPING ON THIS ISSUE ONCE AGAIN!
Check this out, yo. The evidence is not so contrary to my initial thoughts as I initially thought!
[Eurasia and Oceania have always been allies! Eastasia is and has always been the enemy!]
-MMoM Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well I'll be damned. The pod at least is still labelled as Farragut.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
But how do we know that shot wasn't taken partway through the changeover?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!
No, seriously, uh, by the date on the photo? 1998 post-dates the 1995 airdate of "Way of the Warrior" (first appearance of Nebula in credits) by, like, a lot.
-MMoM Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Just because it's date-stamped 1998 doesn't mean it was actually taken in 1998. The photo had probably never been used prior to its inclusion inwhatever article you got this from. Which, I'm guessing, probably came out in 1998?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
...and, in case you don't remember what I'm talking about after nearly three years, reread the first post!
...or, I can simply recap: The Nebula studio model that was labelled as the U.S.S. Farragut NCC-60597 for GEN was relablled for the DS9 opening credits as the U.S.S. Leeds NCC-70532, but only on the ventral saucer, pylons, and aft shuttlebay. The dorsal saucer and upper sensor pod remained labelled as the Farragut.
-MMoM Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Well, mmmm, ahhh, uhhh, congrats man.
Looks to be about 2 Years, 7 Months, 3 Weeks, 3 Days, 5 Hours, 5 Minutes between Lee's post and yours.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Thank you, Data. And Spock.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Just out of curiosity, what's the current record on a zombie thread?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I'd say this is pretty close.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I seem to recall that there was one revived after no less than 5 years some time ago...
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Hmm. HMM. That sounds vaguely familar, but I'll be damned if I can remember what the thread was about.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Something equally geeky I'd imagine.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
I've been playing LOTS of Zombie Murder servers for Source. Mostly Excape maps (love the one's with the Heli and Pods), though i'll play on VIP excape maps when the regular one is full (though i hate the VIP-E ones since more kids play there, they bitch, yell, can never fly the heli, always glith peps off the boats. i always pleed for voteban's FF on so i can really fuck up those ritious teen-pricks (if only to just push them off stuck, push them into a zombie, etc, etc, etc...
oh, we're supposed to be talking about Nebula's & Galaxies, right? This is CarlSagan.gov, right?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Zombie Murder? Is it like Zombie Panic? If not, I'd love to download.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Look under 'Zombie mod' with game types like ZOMBIE MOD **EXCAPE** or ZOMBIE MOD VIP EXCAPE or NAPALM or UK EXCAPE. I find the games under US East servers...
these 4 servers don't have some of the other changes (that is, 5 different skins, like Alien, Predator or Hell Knight) but other than that, i like these over other servers as Admin's are on often and cause 'trouble' Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
Correction: ZOMBIE MOD | RUN BITCH RUN| **Escape**
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