So I'm working on a page about planet-killers, and while I'm at it I go into the Genesis Device a little bit, since it blows 'em up real good (if even inadvertently).
Now, I'd already noticed way back when that the Genesis Planet seems to be quite a bit closer to its sun by the end of the film . . . the last scene with the BoP leaving has a huge, close sun compared to the shots of the Grissom and Enterprise arriving. I decided to cross-check with any shots from the surface, and came across something weird.
First, we have the strange-looking sunset scene David watches (no doubt wondering where the hell the atmosphere ran off to), available at Trekcore.com:
But then I noticed something . . . a few of the peaks and whatnot in the distance are the same. So I did an overlay just to be sure, and sure enough it's the same horizon:
So either these guys landed on the north pole, or else the planet tearing-itself-apart thing happened to include the whole place flopping all about so that its rotation seemed to nearly reverse.
Of course, the idea of landing on the north pole doesn't work, given the rapid drops-straight-down sunset we saw earlier in the film . . . and thus we're stuck with the planet shifting into reverse somehow. I don't think it was a hard rotational 180 given the long, slow pre-dawn (during which Kirk kicks various forms of Klingon ass), but certainly the sun wasn't supposed to rise there.
(Even if we don't allow for a 180, the sun is several degrees from where it ought to be . . . roughly the equivalent of the difference in sun position between summer and winter in the temperate region of Earth.)
The only other possibility I see is that the landmass they were on spun around all by itself. But that comes with its own problems. A planetary core going all wobbly-goblin might somehow produce a shift for the whole mass without someone on the surface noticing too much (just like we don't really catch on to the rotation of Earth normally), but a continent riding the merry-go-round would require that if any poor bastard was on those hills at the horizon he'd have to be hanging on tight.
But that's just my take. I could be right, or I could be smoking crack. The two may not be mutually exclusive, so any thoughts are appreciated.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
So they only built one horizon set/painted one horizone matte, not knowing that in 20 years' time there'd exist technology whereby a bunch of obsessives could superimpose them and talk about it by computer. Cue another 20 years of complaints as each successive ST3 Special Edition DVD/BluRay/datachip/memorycrystal/direct cortical download fails to correct the duplicate horizons, which TOTALLY ruins the film for everyone.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
What he said.
But if you absolutely must find an explanation, consider that the planet was formed from a nebula that (presumably) contained a protostar which became the genesis sun once all the surrounding gas has been converted into winter cacti and Styrofoam rocks. Now I'm sure having a planet spontaneously appearing in a protostar's life zone would cause all sorts of problems with things like gravity, inertia, orbital trajectories and tidal forces...needless to say the chances of it spontaneously having a stable orbit are rather slim. Now I don't have the mass of squiggly lines and long division to back it up, but I can imagine that the planet would find itself on an elliptical orbit, with an unstable molten core and plenty of wobbling going on. So yes, I can see a 180, pole to pole flip happen at some point as it tumbled through space.
Or you might presume that the "sunset" was actually a nearby moon (Regula was within impulse drive range of the nebula, correct?) reflecting the light from the sun having already set over the opposite horizon.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, since the Marcuses "couldn't cram a byte more" into their programming, they probably cheated and copy-pasted some of their landform templates.
Or then the planet indeed is wobbly, perhaps spinning around multiple axes. If it were thrown together from nebular mass, this is actually a reasonable possibility: the Genesis device wasn't supposed to do such things, so it had no provision for simulating the millennia of Newtonian Wienerwaltz that would give a planet its nice and orderly spin.
OTOH, if the Genesis planet actually is the Regula asteroid or some other pre-existing rock in the Regula system genesiformed (which is the likelier explanation IMHO), we're speaking of a template that didn't have nice Class M climate to begin with - a potential tumbler or wobbler.
OTTH, if we go in the other direction and claim that Genesis not only made the planet but also the star literally out of thin air, then we could see one sun setting and another rising while the planet rotates in an orderly and civilized manner. The "synthetic" star would probably be in fairly close orbit around the planet in order to be effective. Make that orbit retrograde and you're done.
An Edosian would throw up his hands at this point. But a T*rellian would still be good for another attempt: OTFH, is that sunrise really a sunrise? Or perhaps just another sunset on that topsy-turvy planet with two-hour days, confusing the audience because of all the cuts?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Dang, Reverend beat me to a couple of those points.
The Mutara nebula was so close to the Regula I lab and the Regula asteroid that I'd argue that both of those, and in fact the entire system, were already deep within the nebula. A good location for secret research, really... In the mere minutes of the flight-from-Regula chase, the limping ships couldn't really have moved out of the system or anything.
The Regula system could have had plenty of stars, really. Perhaps it was a stellar nursery, with dozens of little starlets zooming this way or that, and making the definition of "day" or "night" interesting from the planetary point of view. Assuming there was a planetary point of view.
The name of the asteroid was "Regula", without any Roman numerals; it was the station that was called "Regula I". So perhaps there was just this one rock in the area, and the station was tagging along that rock when surveying the stellar ballet around it, as Starfleet understood that the orbit of the asteroid (no matter how screwy or wobbly) would be the stablest and safest in the region, at least in the near past and hopefully near future.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: What he said.
But if you absolutely must find an explanation, consider that the planet was formed from a nebula that (presumably) contained a protostar which became the genesis sun once all the surrounding gas has been converted into winter cacti and Styrofoam rocks. Now I'm sure having a planet spontaneously appearing in a protostar's life zone would cause all sorts of problems with things like gravity, inertia, orbital trajectories and tidal forces...needless to say the chances of it spontaneously having a stable orbit are rather slim. Now I don't have the mass of squiggly lines and long division to back it up, but I can imagine that the planet would find itself on an elliptical orbit, with an unstable molten core and plenty of wobbling going on. So yes, I can see a 180, pole to pole flip happen at some point as it tumbled through space.
Or you might presume that the "sunset" was actually a nearby moon (Regula was within impulse drive range of the nebula, correct?) reflecting the light from the sun having already set over the opposite horizon.
Let's not forget Reliant's warpcore thrown in to fuck things up.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yeah, you have to wonder what antimatter would do to the Genesis matrix, not to mention all the organic matter that made up the crew and whatever else happened to be on board. I mean, wasn't Carol Marcus worried about something as small as a microbe effecting the experiment?
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Well I think Drs. Marcus were more concerned about the ethics of destroying indigenous species/life than upsetting their results. Not that they weren't above using the apparently dangerous proto-matter to make their little invention work. Which proto-matter in conjunction with the anti-matter of Reliant's warp core and the distinct lack of an actual planetary body to affect no doubt led to the short life of planet Genesis.
It is cool, however that G2K discovered the recycling of matte-paintings. And I like Timo's idea of their copy-paste shortcuts, reminds me of some RTS map-building utilities.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Re: the warp core explosion: it's a lovely touch (in addition to being an apparent VFX necessity) how the nebula disappears in an eyeblink when the Reliant explodes. Whether this sweeping of nebular gases is done by the explosion, or by the Genesis effect, it still looks pretty.
But the presence of lifeforms at ground zero seems to be as much a results-biasing concern as an ethical concern to the Marcuses. Sure, they ah so touchingly want the life on CAV/VI transplanted rather than incinerated, but David's "If there's as much as a microbe down there..." makes it sound more like he's concerned the test won't prove Genesis if there already was life there before the detonation.
Yet what would be the odds of finding a Class M planet without microbes there?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: So they only built one horizon set/painted one horizone matte, not knowing that in 20 years' time there'd exist technology whereby a bunch of obsessives could superimpose them and talk about it by computer.
This is undoubtedly true. Hollywood just isn't set up for obsessive superimpositions, MACO counting, or absolutely realistic depictions of things. Dammit.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Reverend: [QB]needless to say the chances of it spontaneously having a stable orbit are rather slim.
Fair enough, but there was no indication of it naturally forming into an extremely rapid descent into the sun, either. The planet survived at a stellar distance not-observably-different than that at the time of its formation for three months. The Klingons seemed to think the place would be stable enough to serve as a forward base for use in war against the Empire.
But again, the issue of the view from the planet showing suns-of-similar-size contradicts the huge-angry-sun space view, so the idea is not without its potential evidentiary pitfalls.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: An Edosian would throw up his hands at this point. But a T*rellian would still be good for another attempt: OTFH,
I'm so stealing that.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: is that sunrise really a sunrise? Or perhaps just another sunset on that topsy-turvy planet with two-hour days, confusing the audience because of all the cuts?
Well, the cloud cover on the planet seems light in that area, judging by the thought-to-be-sunrise view. If it were sunset I'd imagine we'd have had a brighter day during Kirk's wanton asskicking.
That said, though, the theme of the planet rapidly aging like Spock does seem consistent with the idea that the planet's rotation might've been increasing.
In any event, it seems the orbital issues are a bit uncertain, though something clearly went at least a little awry with the rotation. Thanks!
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
What huge, angry sun? Maybe I need to go watch it again, but the only huge, angry anything I remember from TSFS was the planet breaking up as they fled in the BoP.
--Jonah
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I don't think Genesis was involved in the creation of the star. It was intended to be introduced to a planetary body and terraform it not create a mini-solar system. My guess is that Regula was a small star just outside the nebula with "Regula I" being the planetoid orbiting it. That would also mean the orbital was "Spacestation at Regula I".
I question where the mass came from. The Reliant was the center of the explosion and its tonnage would naturally become part of the planet. So where did the bulk of the mass come from?
Here is my worthless two cents. We know it took a few minutes for the Enterprise to make it to the outskirts of the Nebula from Regula on impulse power. We also know it took several seconds of warp speed to escape the detonation. A five second burst at lightspeed would take the Enterprise 930,000 miles from Reliant. That's a huge range for one detonation to present a danger unless other forces were in play.
Genesis would have to be programmed to work around a greater mass than a small starship. Considering the density of the nebula, its range would have to be incredible to form a planet from just Reliant and some stardust. That is totally infeasible. It would need a far larger initial mass as its intent was the terraforming of a surface, not the creation of an entire planet. Therefor I think the "Genesis Effect" would naturally select the greatest nearby mass, in this case Regula I and form a gravity well that then pulled in all the other stellar debris from the nebula along with the Reliant to begin the terraforming. IIRC there was still stuff falling planetward at the end of ST2 which could have been residuals from the initial effect. That would give us the planet in the location of the Regula I planetoid and explain a star. As this was not how the device was intended to be used, the programming trying to adapt itself, along with the protomatter could explain the resultant instability and perhaps even the duplication of surface features. The wobble could well be the result of the planetoid originally having an eccentric rotation and the effect attempting to correct it.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Works for me, definitely.
quote:...with "Regula I" being the planetoid orbiting it. That would also mean the orbital was "Spacestation at Regula I".
The movie dialogue repeatedly refers to the station as "Space station Regula I". While that as such means little, when Kirk asks for scans on the station and the asteroid after arrival, Spock tells the scanners don't work, so there's no way to see inside "Regula I". He then says "As for Regula itself", referring to the asteroid...
If we try to keep that within the Trek naming practices, it seems likely that "Regula" is the "proper name" of the asteroid, not the "systematic name". That is, it's like "Earth", not like "Sol III". Consequently, the star would be named anything BUT "Regula"...
(Heck, perhaps the star could even be named Mutara!)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Perhaps it has a VERY bad eliptical orbit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's likely that Genesis had far less mass than a stable planet and that, as it sped through it's lifecycle, that lack of mass made it's orbit very erratic... Who knows- maybe the protomatter/Reliant antimatter was serving as a gravitational attractor in liu of a huge iron core and the internals eventually consumed each other- making the planet go blooey.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Yet what would be the odds of finding a Class M planet without microbes there?
Maybe as much as half if you arrive early in a planet's development (and if comets or God have not crashed into the planet to seed it with the proper organic potentials). Ceti Alpha anything seems a BAD choice for this though...the science officer on Reliant needed a vacation or something. Maybe he was a Pakled that got his position by affirmitive action.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Or maybe CA5 was class G.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Although Regula probably wouldn't be considered a full-blown planet, it is at least roughlyspherical. A planetoid which isn't entirely unlike the small moon on which the effect is simulated in the animation. I mean just so we're clear, when Spock calls Regula a great rock in space, it's not like Eros or one of those other weirdo potato-looking rocks.
However, as appealing as this idea is, I remain unconvinced that Regula was pulled into the creation of the planet. I feel strongly that the intent was that the Reliant and someperhapssubstantial portion of the surrounding nebula went into forming the planet. That part of what went wrong with the Genesis effect later would have been due to it attempting to terraform a spaceship and adjacent gases and plasmas and stuff.
It's a wonder it worked at all, and perhaps Genesis's highly irregular orbit combined with the proto-matter and the bizzare ingredients of the new planet's core led to it's early demise. The screen caps to which G2K links above seem to imply that the dying planet is moving towards its star.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by bX: However, as appealing as this idea is, I remain unconvinced that Regula was pulled into the creation of the planet. I feel strongly that the intent was that the Reliant and someperhapssubstantial portion of the surrounding nebula went into forming the planet. That part of what went wrong with the Genesis effect later would have been due to it attempting to terraform a spaceship and adjacent gases and plasmas and stuff.
Not to dispute that this may have in fact been the case, but I'm pretty sure that the intent was that David's "cheating" use of protomatter was the reason that the experiment failed.
-MMoM Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Well I meant the intent in TWOK was the nebula. I hesitate to speculate on the intent in TSFS, but yes, clearly the proto-matter was largely at fault.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I blame David's creepy curly perm.
Also, how did Carol Marcuse not know what David was up to?
Also, you'd think Genesis's destructive capibilities would be an anti-Borg option (though the possibility of the Borg getting the tech is pretty scary).
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Yeah. If Protomatter is that dangerous, where are the Protom-Torpedoes? It was sure stable enough to survive a battle and was intended to be launched. Can you imagine beaming one into the middle of a Cube? yeah....and the Borg Queen gets "reordered" into Smurfette.....yeah....
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I get the impression protomatter's big problem is that it's unpredictable. Weapons need to be predictable.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Trek Playstation game INvasion has Protomatter Torpedos. Nothing special though...just a more powerful (and green!) Q-Torp.
I think it's more likely that Protomatter is really tough to deal with due to it's unstable nature (proving Omega's point, to some extent). OTOH, desperate times and all that- the Manhattan Project guys really had no inking of their bomb's power.
If the Borg had assimilated Earth back in FC, there'd have been all kinds of desperate measures pulled out of starfleet's closet o' doomsday weapons.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Wasn't there a book that had a plotline that V-ger was actually found by the Borg homeworld and altered for its trip back to find Earth?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yes. Why?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Also, you'd think Genesis's destructive capibilities would be an anti-Borg option (though the possibility of the Borg getting the tech is pretty scary).
Funny, never thought of that Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: Wasn't there a book that had a plotline that V-ger was actually found by the Borg homeworld and altered for its trip back to find Earth?
I've never liked that idea since V'ger bears little in resemblence to anything the Borg could have built. Furthermore, V'ger came across a planet of living machines, which to me doesn't describe the Borg who are more or less half organic/half machine. I imagine something along the lines of android or highly andvance robots.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Sooo...Cybertron.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Try Unicron.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
You first.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Also, you'd think Genesis's destructive capibilities would be an anti-Borg option (though the possibility of the Borg getting the tech is pretty scary).
All claim to a topic expires after two years- it's Public Domain now, Rev ol' chum.
Besides, decades from now, when I'm completely cybernetic- and a ninja- I'll travel back in time to three years ago and whisper the idea in your head while you're sleeping. (If I remember to- if not we'll never have this online conversation) So, you see, you'd never have had the idea in the first place if I had not stolen it from you after you had it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: You first.
Hey I'm serious. A living machine planet populated by lots of smaller machines that equaite to parts of the larger organisum fits the profile allot more than just a planet populated by machines...and if it has the voice of Orsen Wells, so much the better.
quote: Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: All claim to a topic expires after two years- it's Public Domain now, Rev ol' chum.
Besides, decades from now, when I'm completely cybernetic- and a ninja- I'll travel back in time to three years ago and whisper the idea in your head while you're sleeping. (If I remember to- if not we'll never have this online conversation) So, you see, you'd never have had the idea in the first place if I had not stolen it from you after you had it.
Yes but before you did that, I travelled back in time and bribed the architect of your building to install a trapdoor right where you're sitting. *pushes button* Bye!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Luckily for me, you did not take into account that I live on the ground level. In Florida. Now my feet are wet and there's water damage in my computer room- only a slight setback.
It would have been cool to have learned the first Decepticons were made as Unicron's immune system...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe it was falling into the sun?? The atmosphere might have been boiling away perhaps? Tidal forces ripping the planet apart?
Just one thing... The Genesis planet was made from a nebula and a starship was it not? There should still be the Planet Regula 1 (or was that the planet) that the station was orbiting. There was also Ceti Alpha V/VI... is this the same system - or Khan actually went to warp to get to the Genesis Project... I wonder how far apart the two were - there could have been something like 2 weeks travel time!?!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, as discussed in the past two pages, the Genesis planet could have been made of a (blown-away) nebula and a (blown-up) starship, or it could have been made of a pre-existing planet in the system that held the rock named Regula and the space station named Regula I.
However, Ceti Alpha probably was at least a couple of star systems away, or else Starfleet wouldn't have dispatched a starship to seek out a lifeless planet for the Marcuses to experiment with...
The strange thing is, Kirk once again claims that the Enterprise is the nearest ship to Regula I - even though, for all we know, the ship has not engaged warp since leaving Earth. If the distances involved are that screwy, then there's little hope in telling anything definite about the location of Ceti Alpha, either.
(Okay, so perhaps the cadet ship did perform a warp jump or two when we weren't looking. It just looks funny the way it's played out, is all.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And again, Earth is as defenseless in Trek as it is now...probably less so.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
You'd think the Xindi probe would have taught them better. Hell there isn't even a planetary shield.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not even a mention of anyone having orbital defenses untill DS9... The Borg just strolling into 001 was just...pathetic. If they ever redo TNG's effects, they should REALLY have about a hundred more of those 'lil interceprors engage -and be wiped out by- the Cube.
Really, a lone Warbird could completely wipe out Earth in TNG's era.
"No moat...no fence...you couldn't keep a cow out of this place." Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Small observation, but wouldn't Reliant have been closer to Regula than Enterprise? Keeping in mind that at that point they didn't know she'd been hijacked.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, I've always assumed Spacedock to be reasonably heavily armed. Seriously, that is an absolutely humongous facility by Star Trek standards. Surely some of it is dedicated to defense. Though of course that has nothing to say about the side of the planet Spacedock isn't currently orbiting on...
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Not even a mention of anyone having orbital defenses untill DS9... The Borg just strolling into 001 was just...pathetic. If they ever redo TNG's effects, they should REALLY have about a hundred more of those 'lil interceprors engage -and be wiped out by- the Cube.
Really, a lone Warbird could completely wipe out Earth in TNG's era.
"No moat...no fence...you couldn't keep a cow out of this place."
Weren't there orbital defenses in The Motion Picture, but V'Ger absorbed them all?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Well, I've always assumed Spacedock to be reasonably heavily armed. Seriously, that is an absolutely humongous facility by Star Trek standards. Surely some of it is dedicated to defense. Though of course that has nothing to say about the side of the planet Spacedock isn't currently orbiting on...
Which is 100% of the time post-STIII. Really...where could it have gone?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Well, it could have been taken into the past to be used as a base of operations for a fight against the evil demi-gods of the week where it will turn out that Humans are really the ancestors of the Vulcans and wiped the Sleestak from their planet ages ago.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Actually I do remember Spacedock after STIII but during Picard's time there was didley squat to protect Earth. Also, in Star Trek Enterprise, Archer and crew encounter several planets that employ some sort of orbital defense. I mean they even get caught in a Romulan minefield orbiting one of the Romulans' planet. You'd think of all the things they learned on their little trip, it would that orbital defenses would be good for Earth. As for the TNG era, I can't think of any excuse other that the fact that humanity seems to have devolved into a race of pussies with the occasional human being with balls coming up(like Picard, or Sisko, or Janeway.)
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I'd hardly say Picard has BALLS. I'd say he has presence.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Whereas kirk had a syrup.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
To be sure, there have been extremely few situations where we could have seen Earth's defenses in action.
In two of the movies, a super-entity neutralized defenses without a battle. In TNG, the Borg hit the Sol system, but the camera did not follow them: we only heard that an epic battle raged around Jupiter, and we never saw what sort of fight took place around Saturn (which the Borg were shown visiting). Hence, we can't say that nothing happened around Earth or that only three missiles happened around Mars merely because we saw nothing else.
In ST:FC, Earth defenses probably wouldn't have fired until the starships were out of the way. And the starships were more or less winning the fight already.
In DS9, a Breen fleet was cut to pieces so that it could barely pockmark a single city. I'd say there were defenses there...
It's just one of those Hollywood things. The Enterprise-D did have a big shuttlebay on the saucer, even though the camera never visited the facility. There were more than eight Borg aboard the E-E in ST:FC, and more than eight Klingons aboard Kronos One. So Earth probably had a dense swarm of orbital defense platforms, too.
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