There's sort of a dearth of ship-related issues to talk about these days, but I did find something interesting on a site with Christie's auction items.
At the end of Star Trek: Generations, three starships leave Veridian III. We all know that the Nebula class ship was the U.S.S. Farragut, but the identities of the Miranda and Oberth class ships were unknown. Well, it turns out that they were the Saratoga and the Pegasus:
It would be the last time that both of these physical models would be used in Star Trek, and they retained their markings from the episodes they were used in (and the Saratoga was given its rollbar back, while the phaser cannons were removed). This also stamps out the rumor that the Oberth was labeled as the "U.S.S. Valiant NCC-50000," since it was most certainly not labeled as such, so it should be removed from anyones' ship lists.
Unfortunately, one cannot quite explain how both ships were operating years after they had already been destroyed... Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Thank you. I always thought the idea of an Oberth named valiant was dumb. Just because it was on one study model...
Obviously ships get their names changed & repainted every so often when they pull into port for a while. It's a disinformation campaign to confuse the enemy & obfuscate the true fleet numbers. That's why the bridge was different in Generations; that ship was previously USS Trinculo.
...They added transporter emitters to the Oberth model. Interesting.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
If you mean that big black thing behind the saucer...I think that's always been there.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
No, I mean the beigey/yellow rectangles that are transporter emitter arrays.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Maybe they got caught in the nexus, and have come back to modern times, kind of like kirk. They blow up later, we just don't see that. Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
For a second I thought Esecallum had returned...
Well I have nothing more to add here except to say thanks.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I love the markings on the Oberth's nacelles. The detail is cool. The windows on the OB's saucer seem smaller than I remember (thus making the saucer bigger than I remember). Are the windows different than on other OB's?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm rather interested in the spacedock and workbee segments seen in the background..!
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I gotta say, the Oberth is a sexy-looking ship.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: For a second I thought Esecallum had returned...
Well I have nothing more to add here except to say thanks.
God i thinking that shit...
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I love the markings on the Oberth's nacelles. The detail is cool. The windows on the OB's saucer seem smaller than I remember (thus making the saucer bigger than I remember). Are the windows different than on other OB's?
i noticed that too. all those blackened lights. *checks Bernd's site* Nah, no issues always been there i guess...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I remember seeing a "new Oberth" somewhere on some fansite. Does anyone recall seeing it? I can't remember the class name or I'd google it, but it was supposed to be a 24th century era replacement of the Oberth - more TNG sexy lines, less TOS/Movies look.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
People come up with those all the time. You'll find most fan creations are "replacements for the aging x class". It's a good shorthand way of explaining how your ship fits into the Trek universe, but it's a little over used now.
As for the Pegasus and Saratoga, I don't know why nobody thought of this sooner! It was staring us in the face (well, the face of anyone who looked through all the pics coming out of the auctions). I too am glad this has dispelled the Valiant rumour, although I always liked the idea that the Miranda was the Bozeman since it was supposed to be somewhere in the area in GEN.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
So was the Mirandas and Oberths in First Contact these miniatures or some new CGI models?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They did a big clean-up of the Farragut/Nebula model for Generations - I remember seeing it in a doco for the movie. Why didn't they do the same for these two ships?
It's a wonder that AMT/ERTL never released the Oberth as a model.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Y'know it's interesting that I never saw these ships at Christie's I guess they were sold before the auction reached New York. Oh well, at least I got to see the Yeager class. And tribbles.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:So was the Mirandas and Oberths in First Contact these miniatures or some new CGI models?
The miniatures were used for this scene. There has never been a CGI Oberth model made.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
don't suppose someone here, who knows people of importanance in ST, could ask them about those models and what they plan to do with them? (keep them as keepsakes of thier work?) Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think the models belong to the studio, not the artists.
The Miranda and Oberth models probably weren't fussed over so much before Generations because they weren't going to be seen as closely. The OB is tiny compared to the Nebbie.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
How big was the Oberth model in real life compared to the Nebbie model?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The Nebula model looks to be about five feet long, and the Grissom pictures I've seen in Star Trek III B-T-S stuff looks like it's a little smaller.
--Jonah
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Here's how big the Oberth model is:
And the Nebula...
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:I gotta say, the Oberth is a sexy-looking ship.
I hate the Oberth with every fiber of my being. And not just because it's a silly design. I hate it because in almost every TNG episode it was featured in or mentioned, it was supposed to be a different class of ship that TPTB decided to nix having a new model built because of the budget.
Tsiolkovsky: Where it all started. The "Oberth" class was supposed to be a new ship. Instead we got the Grissom without even any changes to the name and registry on the model. So essentially, the runabouts were the ships that finally replaced the Oberth class.
Yosemite: Because this was originally the class ship for the Trieste, Okuda had to rename the class Merced.
Raman: A new model was supposed to be built for this ship, but instead no exterior shots were shown, and Okuda made it an Oberth in the Encyclopedia with a completely different registry than what was in the episode.
Cochrane: Script only mentioned "a small Federation ship." So they used the Oberth.
Biko: Was supposed to be a freighter, and instead we got stock footage of the Cochrane from "The Drumhead."
Pegasus: Supposed to be a new design. Guess what we got?
And to add insult to injury, I had heard a rumor that before Deep Space Nine premiered, the plan was to use the Grissom model again to represent the three ships assigned to DS9, before the decision was made to build the runabout models. So essentially the runabouts were the ships that finally replaced the Oberths.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well Dukhat the same could be said for the Excelsior class. I think it rivals the Oberth in terms of appearances. The real kicker is that they all used the same stock footage of the Big E and an Excelsior flying side by side.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
and thus reason enough IMHO for TNG-R...
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
And what makes you thick they would use new designs to replace all the Oberths and Excelsiors that have appeared on TNG, assuming they were going to Remaster TNG.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Exactly. I really doubt Okuda would invalidate his own Encyclopedia by giving different designs to every instance of Oberth and Excelsior use, re-use, and stock footage.
And, BTW, I hate the Excelsior class as well, not to mention the Miranda Class.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The ship classes of the undead, the 3 of them. I realized while working on my project that if I did those 3 classes right up front then I'd have the bulk of Starfleet done. Boy howdy, was I right.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
At least they're not all birds of prey.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Or Antares Class(s).
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: And, BTW, I hate the Excelsior class as well, not to mention the Miranda Class.
Blasphemy! I'm quite fond of both designs. The Miranda class' compact design makes more sense to me than the primary hull-secondary hull setup of just about ever other Star Trek starship.
As for their use in TNG and DS9, I don't have much of a problem with the use of the Excelsior class since it was at least a prototypical design in Star Trek III. The Miranda, on the other hand, seems like much too old of a design.
The use of those classes decades after their introduction isn't too far from reality, though. The B-52 prototype flew in 1952 and current USAF plans are to have the plane in service until at least 2040. That's 88 years of service! With the Excelsior prototype being tested in 2285 and being used at least until the end of the Dominion War in 2375, the design would have been in service for 90 years. With respect to the long life of a particular vessel, the USS Midway (CV-41) saw front-line service for 47 years (1945 to 1992).
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
And you also have to think about production runs. The mirandas and excelsiors ( for the most part) could be from the later production runs of their class. Old design, but technically a new(er) ship. i don't think we'll see any of the B-52's from the early production runs in the 50's and 60's in 2040.
Another example would be the Colt M1911 .45 cal pistol. Standard issue pistol of the US armed services from 1911 untill 1985, and the design is still in use and just as popular as it was when it originally came out. In fact, some military personell still carry .45's that were made in the Vietnam era, or earlier(that still function perfectly), instead of the Beretta M9 9mm. Sure we have newer and better pistols, with better accuracy and magazine capacity ( the .45 only holds 7 rounds ), but the good old 45 still has admirable qualities. It is simple to use, has excellent stopping power, it's durable. Just like Excelsiors, and to a lesser extent, Mirandas ( they would be like Colt Peacemakers).
There are faster, more heavily armed ships available, but there seem to be so many Excelsiors and Mirandas out there, and they can still get the job done. As to why we saw Excelsiors being used as flagships, most of the Admirals were old, and probably served on ships like them, and find them suitable for their purpose.
And they both blow up nicely in battle.
Wow, I just REALLY over explained this...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I don't think so. This is hardcore scifi geek central. To overexplain is to explain just enough
Actually I've never thought of it in quite that way before - Mirandas and Excelsiors could get the job done, so there wasn't much need to spend resources creating a newer class. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." In other words, don't improve the entire fleet at once just because it's technically possible - build small numbers of new Nebulas, Galaxies, Intrepids, and Soverigns, and build large numbers of tried-and-true, well-tested, well-proven workhorses like Excelsior and Miranda.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I've finished my timeline of starship information that will be pertinent to my essay about the conjectural classes, and I've come across some interesting things. I'll post a new thread about it.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
And now that the end of the century is near, and a shit load of the older vessels were lost in the Dominion war, we will see less and less of them. But they will still have their place to some degree. Mirandas have already started to move to the rear echelon positions like freighters and transports, since they are older than the Excelsiors, but I'd assume that soon they too would get relegated to other roles. Perhaps target practice, training ships... The newer spaceframes (2330's) would probably stay in active duty for a while longer. If we see Mirandas on active duty in the 2400's, then Starfleet deserves a slap in the face, but Excelsiors in service into the 2420's and ready to be phased out would make perfect sense.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Fuck the old ships, I wanna see some new tech from the Federation. The Dominion War showed the price you pay when you rely on outdated ships for too long.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
More likely we won't see them EVER again. That part of trek history is closed for now.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Floating in bits and pieces on the front lines, mostly
I also don't necessarily think "new spaceframe design" = "new tech." I mean you don't have to have a new sexy sleek swanlike starship in order to bitch it out with quantum torpedoes and Class Fifty-billion probes, get me? I mean, look at ships and airplanes - the shapes don't change *that* much. Maybe there's as much difference between an early-, mid-, and late-model Excelsior as there is between a U-boat, Alfa class, and Los Angeles class subs.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
It would be unusual to see, but you could see an old Connie-refit or a Miranda as a private vessel, same as seeing WW2 "warbirds" flown at airshows. Granted the cost of owning would be enormous but you never know. Now I wonder if any old tin cans were ever put in private hands.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:( the .45 only holds 7 rounds )
Actually, you can get 8-round magazines for 1911-A1s. Add 1 in the barrel with a full mag, and you've got a 9 round capacity.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Very true, although I was referring to what the military would have handed out, with the standard 7 rd mag, so if you count the round in the barrel, 8 rounds, yeah. That is still low by today's standards, where people don't see the need to aim their guns. Actually, there is a Canadian company that produces .45 variants with 12,13, and 14 round capacity magazines as standard. Just proves the longevity of a sound design.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I also don't necessarily think "new spaceframe design" = "new tech."
Star Trek made a lot of a starship's performance independent of the spaceframe. You want a stronger ship? Put in an improved structural integrity field. You want better defenses? Put in improved shield generators, better torpedoes, and enhanced phaser banks. A better warp core and warp coils that fit in the old nacelles will get you more speed.
If you assume the Star Trek technical manuals have any validity, about the only thing that the spaceframe does for you (besides determining crew size and mission scope and flexibility) is shape the warp field. Unless you need a fast ship like the Intrepid Class, you can probably get away with a souped up older design.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Exactly, thanks for pointing that out.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Yeah, build a Miranda that has all the internal goodies of an Intrepid and you'll end up with something like this. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Damned Finns.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Henry Ford is twitching in his grave...
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
There may also be some element of nostalgia particularly with Admirals and VIPs retrofitting their old commands. (Though why you'd do this to a Grissom/Oberth is quite beyond me.) Obviously Kirk was able to get a refit connie when Starfleet was looking to retire them (ST3). With or without transwarp, the Excelsiors clearly outclassed her (end of ST6).
When you think about it, it makes sense to use something less than the latest and greatest for fleet support and science missions. One doesn't need to be bristling with quantum torpedoes and ablative armor when squaring off with gaseous anomalies and stern storehouse coordinators.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: There are faster, more heavily armed ships available, but there seem to be so many Excelsiors and Mirandas out there, and they can still get the job done. As to why we saw Excelsiors being used as flagships, most of the Admirals were old, and probably served on ships like them, and find them suitable for their purpose.
Gee, if only I had said that... Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: Henry Ford is twitching in his grave...
Why? Its a Cosworth rallye engine out of an Escort (European). All Ford components.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
I dont think he ever meant for a model A to go upwards of 50 mph.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Try 150 mph. That's a good start.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sean: I dont think he ever meant for a model A to go upwards of 50 mph.
Henry Ford was one of the co-founders of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. He definitely didn't have a problem with cars going fast.
Of course, when the first race was ran in 1911 fast was 78 mph.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Yeah, but 78 in a car from 1911? That's got to be some good laxative.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
But I'd imagine that the Model A was not designed to handle an extreme speed. Like if you tried to push NX-01 to warp nine. Even if you upgrade the engine, the frame itself could not handle the stress I'd imagine. It'd fly apart at the seams. It would be funny to see a model A go 150mph though.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
They pretty much rebuilt the car to handle the engine. Click the link in that video, you'll see.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Oh, I thought they used the original body.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
re Excelsior refitability: the Lakota
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
The Lakota looks weird. It looks like the eng. hull tried to swallow a small saucer, but choked on it instead.
Posted by Ventriloquists Got Shot (Member # 239) on :
SOMEONE SHUT ME UP PLEASE
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
If this keeps up we may have to opt for being Sean-like.... Scary thought that.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
The really scary things is in what he's describing: enough to confuse me in if he's talking about a Truck or Ent-B space frame...
both are Chevy's i'm told...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was full of stars... Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
My family has worked at the Ford plant here for 3 generations, so I'm screwed into buying Fords.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: Drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was full of stars...
...my god.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Shuttlepods in flight, Afternoon Delight...
Posted by HopefulNebula (Member # 1933) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: Drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was full of stars...
Thank you. Not only did you make me laugh, but you got "O Canada" out of my head. That's been earworming me all week and I have no idea why.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
...hmm, what's worse to have stuck in your head? "O Canada" or "American Pie"? Tough call. I once had "Crazy Horses" by the Osmonds stuck in my head for a good three days, only to be replaced by "Cotten Eye Joe" by Rednex for a further week. Suicide was seriously considered as a remedy.
Posted by OverRon (Member # 2036) on :
I had the Weird Al Star Wars remix of "American Pie" in my head for the better part of a month. "American Pie" came on the radio at work one day, and I was singing out the Star Wars lyrics. People looked at me strange...
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Cotton Eye Joe is a very "sticky" song.
For weeks after I first learned the lyrics to O Canada it was running through my head. I don't know about you, HopefulNebula, but in my case I just thought the lyrics were so cool compared to ours. Really...patriotic. Not about rockets and bombs and shit. Ours is more like a war anthem Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Which makes sense, as it was, y'know, written during a battle in a war & all.
It is, however, supremely outdated. I suggest a change to something more befitting the new postmodern America. Perhaps "For The Love Of Money" by The O'Jays, or Ray Stevens' "It's Me Again, Margaret".
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I knew a girl in college that would beat you senseless if you ever started singing (humming, whatever) the theme song to "I Dream of Jeannie" around her. It was the one song she could *not* get out of her head!
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I don't know about you, HopefulNebula, but in my case I just thought the lyrics were so cool compared to ours. Really...patriotic. Not about rockets and bombs and shit. Ours is more like a war anthem
Canada's independence didn't result from a revolution but from legislation passed in a Britain that no longer wanted to hold on to its empire. And the rockets and bombs mentioned in the song weren't America's but Britain's.
And if you like the Canadian National Anthem better than ours then why don't you just move to Canada!?! Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I plan on it! Socialized health care FTW! (Also, aero bars!)
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
OMG you don't have Aero bars in the US?! That makes me want to eat the one on my desk here even more...
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
They sell aero bars in a small specialty store around here,( because we are so close to the border) but they are not mass retailed. I love to get those, and a Cadbury Crunch when I go to Canada. I think Mint aero bars are the best.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Pfft. Chocolate are the best. Noob.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
If I could include any ships I want for TNG-R, I would replace two of the Oberths with something new (or maybe the Raven?) and perhaps two or three of the Excelsiors with Probert's Ambassador.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
/me huggles the old fart Jermain Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I'd like to see more Ambassadors floating around in any hypothetical TNG-R. Seems to me if the Excelsior is still around, the Ambassador *must* be. FFS, the Ent-C was only a destroyed, what was it, 27 years before "Yesterday's Enterprise"? 22?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I always figured the Ambassadors were off doing what they were built to do: exploring. Minus the few we saw or that were mentioned,
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, true enough.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
We did see the Excalibur and Zhukov, iirc, so they were floating around in TNG, some of them even on screen.
I reckon it's only a matter of time before a fan does their own TNG:R project, if it hasn't happened already. But to be done well it'd have to be a community project, or be very time consuming for an individual. And that's just a few episodes, nevermind 7 seasons. It'd really hinge on whether they used existing models or started from scratch.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I'd like to see more Ambassadors floating around in any hypothetical TNG-R. Seems to me if the Excelsior is still around, the Ambassador *must* be. FFS, the Ent-C was only a destroyed, what was it, 27 years before "Yesterday's Enterprise"? 22?
Bring back the Constellation class!
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Actually, I just want the most glaring errors to be corrected in a TNG-R. For instance, a phaser beam coming out of a torpedo launcher is a no-no.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
One of the thing's I'd change is substitute the HUGE Klingon BoPs with something new (to match the K'Vort dialogue) and/or a Vor'cha. As for the reason why we saw more Excelsiors than Ambassadors floating around is simple. There's probably about five times as many Excelsiors in the fleet as there are Ambassadors and most of them are on workhorse duty, so of course they're the ones ferrying people and stuff to the frontier. Even then, most of the time it was the Hood anyway, which seams to have been assigned as the Enterprise's backup.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, maybe the Enterprise actually did have a small associated flotilla of support vessels. Don't most ships IRL? Of course it's funny they never mentioned it...
I'd want to see the first two seasons cleaned up visually. Those black cards pasted to the glossy stuff on set to block the c-lights, for instance, need to be edited out; and I don't know if they make the whole thing look a bit more "modern"...I mean, I don't know if they were using cheaper film or if it as just late-80's cameras, or if the film has deteriorated, or what, but something seems off to me in those early eps.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
I'd like to see the awful profile shots of starships that were used in the first few seasons go away. Watch the Enterprise go right. Now watch the Enterprise and another ship go left. Later seasons used much more dynamic shots that the earlier seasons couldn't match, either because of technical skill or budget constraints.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: If I could include any ships I want for TNG-R, I would replace two of the Oberths with something new (or maybe the Raven?) and perhaps two or three of the Excelsiors with Probert's Ambassador.
Just as long as it's none of the First Contact ships.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Are you telling me you wouldn't like to see a Steamrunner or a Saber show up here and there? Shame on thee.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I kind of like Steamrunner. Looks squat and tough.
Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
Well ,if we follow some peoples hypothesis that Steamrunners, and other First Contact ships are refitted older, but recent designs, them appearing in TNG-R would make sense. But, a Cheyenne, or New Orleans would be nice too.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Yeah, it would be nice to see the ships around Dytallix B when Picard visits...
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
