For those unfamiliar with the Marshall class, here are a the pics: Perspective,top,side. It looks like Sternbach got confused doing these schematics, since the side view is flipped.
Okay.. this is a really weird ship. The given schematics are not as accurate as they might look, and the perspective view is really just the top view distorted a little. I've decided not to follow the asymmetrical details from the top view, mainly because many of those details are just lines that go nowhere and don't match up to anything.
As you can see, I haven't quite figured out how that front section is supposed to look like. The perspective view is useless, and I don't know whether the side view has a hole in it, or if those really are windows (or whatever) on the outside of the housing. Similarly, in the top view, is the trapezoid shape a gap, or just a red panel? And what about those two triangles in front of the trapezoid? Flat panels, or actually the tip of the red thing inside the housing?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Sweet Nancy, that's one ugly ship. I realize you're trying to follow the established design (and you're doing a killer job with the artwork so far) but that ship would definitely benfit from a round saucer section and some redesigning of the "nacelles"... or rockets... or whatever.
I love what you've done with the shuttles bay and the entry pad area. Very cool.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Wait a minute... with a lifetime of 2157-2207... I'd have to give the class ship UESN markings... and a DDM (?) number.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Good grief... that ship looks like some mutant cousin of the rebel blockade runner from Star Wars! (I mean the design itself, not the artwork, Harry.)
I suppose I could see that as a "destroyer" type ship -- if by UESN you mean Masao's SF Museum universe. Though it would probably be pretty small, and Masao's M/AM reactors are supposed to be very bulky at that time.
Still, I think that ship can be salvaged a little bit -- the shark's teeth are a nice touch. And certainly not every starship ends up looking as sleek as a Galaxy-class, right?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
You know, I've thought about this design. I'm going to redesign the front section, since the current schematics just don't add up. The big red thing could be some sort of navigational deflector, or some sort of ramscoop.
I suppose the best way to make sense of this ship is to make it not an alien design. The Chronology says it's in service from 2157 - 2207 (corrected dates), but it isn't necessarily an Earth design. It could be a Tellarite or even Andorian (or other founding member) ship. It would of couse have become a Federation Star Fleet ship after 2161. That would explain the rather outlandish design, and would keep it at a comfortable distance of Masao's universe and Enterprise.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Y'know, that's a great idea! The only problem with that is that "Marshall" is a Human name. But I could definitely see this ship as a Romulan War-era Tellarite destroyer, fusion powered, slow, and used mainly for defense. In my personal development ideas, I've considered the Tellarites to be the least advanced of the four major races that founded the Federation (that we know of).
Is there any scale information regarding the original Marshall? I was thinking that it looks like a ship in the range of 150 meters to 200 at most -- but I can see some pretty small windows on the side as well.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: In my personal development ideas, I've considered the Tellarites to be the least advanced of the four major races that founded the Federation (that we know of).
Why, because they happen to bear a passing resemblance to an Earth animal you use for food? This is the worst kind of discrimination! You'll be hearing from our elite team of ninja lawyers, I can assure you.
-- Gav Thacken Tellarite Antidefamation League
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Journey to Babal gave me a definite sense of a pecking order that went Human, Vulcan, Andorian, Tellerite. ENTERPRISE seems to back that up.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, strictly speaking, the only planet I can recall ever being refered to onscreen as a founding member of the Federation is Vulcan. I don't think anyone has even explicitly stated that Earth was a founding member, though it is of course implied. There's a tremendous amount of breathing room when it comes to founding members, though, as you say, Enterprise certainly seems to be laying the groundwork for Earth, Vulcan, and Andor(ia), at least.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Ugly design- nice graphics .
The alien ship design later made part of Starfleet works for me- perhaps Marshall is the closest humans can come to pronouncing it's true name? Or the designation was applied after the founding of the federation to demonstrate human domination of the fleet?
The main problem for me is that forward hull- it just looks too small for the rest of the ship.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
of course, this could simply be a symptom of the fact that spacecraft design was by no means a perfect science at that point.. while saucer and independant nacelles took the forefront later in the Federation's history, this could be one of those 'dead ends' of design evolution.. a ship design that was created and used, and then phased out to make way for the more efficient/effective combinations.. i mean, weve seen quite a few saucerless/nacelle-less warp-capable ships in other pre-Federation sources (the DY series, ENT Earth ships, the Jein models from the Chronology, etc..) it seems rather foolish to assume that all Starfleet ships MUST have the features we came to expect of later Starfleet ships.. after all, 200 years ago the US Navy was powered by sail, made of wood.. advancement frequently means changing the conventions of design.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Heck, how much similarity is there between the Constitution-class, the Defiant-class, and the Challenger-class?
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: In my personal development ideas, I've considered the Tellarites to be the least advanced of the four major races that founded the Federation (that we know of).
Why, because they happen to bear a passing resemblance to an Earth animal you use for food? This is the worst kind of discrimination! You'll be hearing from our elite team of ninja lawyers, I can assure you.
Heh. It's mainly because of the apparent relative lack of sophistication compared to the Vulcans, Humans, and Andorians. Purely arbitrary, of course, but when we've only seen them in twice in thirty-seven years, we can't have a lot of justification.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
"Marshall" was the old Earth codename for this ship, and the first ship of this class produced after 2161 was the named after the codename. Perhaps the Tellarites didn't give their ships any names (why would you?)?
The length of this ship is given as 225 meters. And again, this matches up with an almost exact multiple of deck heigths (about 5 or 6, IIRC). I wonder if these designs were really that well thought out, or if it is just a coincidence.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Tellarites are considered in fandom to be incredible excellent engineers. And arguers. Which seems to come hand-in-hand, methinks. Or in their case, hoof-in-hoof.
I'd like to take a note from the Reeves-Stevens' book, "Prime Directive" (a rather excellent Trek novel, I might add, & I don't like many of them) in which it states that while even the Vulcans acknowledged the logic in giving ships names to commemorate places, persons, battles, ideals & the like, that most races didn't seem to figure out the idea that they should use things from their own cultures. Thus, Vulcans crewed ships named the Robert E. Lee, Tellarites served on the Rhode Island & the Surak, & the Orion pirates in the book had the Queen Mary. Perhaps this is a similar thing. Maybe "Marshall" was the human captain who made first contact with "Race X."
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Nice job as always, Harry. I sort of like this design. Good luck with the front and rear views!
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
In the LUG RPG the Tellarites are the main engineers behind the Daedalus class. And a Tellarite engineer originated the primary hull/secondary hull distinction. This is one thing that Enterprise hasn't totally disproven (unless you count that little pod as a secondary hull).
If we assume that post-founding the Federation takes some years (or decades) to blend all the different ship design philosophies we can squeeze in all sort of odd hybrids.
Vulcans - single hull (needle like) and ring. Humans - single hull (sometimes, but by no means always a saucer) and nacelles. Tellarites - (two hulls, maybe one a sphere) and nacelles. Andorians - ??? (FASA suggests that an incomplete saucer and/or close together nacelles are Andorian features whilst LUG implies single hull (sometimes angular, sometimes a saucer) and nacelles - but that is all 23rd and 24th century).
Yeah, we can combine those (plus any other founding races) to make any sort of strange ship in the early decades of the UFP.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
On the right is the Tellarite (or whatever) livery. On the right side is a Marshall in UESN livery, but I've already discarded that. In the middle is the regular version.
Note that I have simplified the front section. And I've changed some other minor details. Next.. a fore and aft view :S
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Very cool. I've gotta say, the design doesn't bother me all that much from the top. I don't like the side for some reason though. I think it's because it looks even more "Aft-heavy" from the side. You've got this hug aft section then this tiny little head at the front.
It's an issue with the design, not with the artwork, which still rocks Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The overall shape of this design always reminded me of Leia's blockade runner vessel from Star Wars. Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
With the nacelles like that it looks like the bastard child of the blockade runner and an A-wing. Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think this ship would look nice with a small saucer instead of the hammer head. Rick Sternbach mentioned once that he thought that saucer-shaped primary hulls evolved from saucer-shaped escape pods, so this would be an ideal place to try it out.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Seconded, of course - although I don't think Harry is willing to go for it, even to save a design in desperate need of such saving... The angular hammerhead in front of the ship could be analogous to the angular "impulse deck" of the Baton Rouge class, and the weird color-coded indentations on the hammerhead could be latching points, turboshaft openings and whatnot for the saucer.
It then becomes a matter of personal taste whether the dimensions given in SFC should apply to the saucered ship or the original. It would be simple enough to account for the increased length by having a relatively large saucer that also increases width correspondingly. And height could be increased simply by adding a dangling Saladin-style deflector dish or some such antenna thingamabob to the saucer section. Or then the given dimensions could be ignored, and no rescaling done at all.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
What are the dimensions of the Marshall Class, anyway?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Anyway. here's the latest schematics. The fore and aft views are really weird, but reasonably accurate. I've kind of had it now with this ugly thing. It has NOT made it into my 'personal canon'
Next up.. well.. if anyone has a side view (and perhaps a fore view) of the Baton Rouge class, I'd like to draw it. AFAIK, the Spaceflight Chronology has only a top view.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Next up.. well.. if anyone has a side view (and perhaps a fore view) of the Baton Rouge class, I'd like to draw it. AFAIK, the Spaceflight Chronology has only a top view.
It's from Lawrence Miller's 1992 Syar Fleet Tactical Database Series 2 which contained line drawings of "58 starships, space probes and starbases" from UESPA and UFP. A lot of them are copied and/or amended versions of Spaceflight Chronology ships.
Wow. That's a strange impulse engine on the Baton Rouge. Are there schematics by him of the Horizon too?
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Yup, though only as a nameless Cargo Transport. The side view is exactly the same as the one in the SFC timeline, but the top view is slightly different to the one from the comparison chart at the back of SFC.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Rick Sternbach mentioned once that he thought that saucer-shaped primary hulls evolved from saucer-shaped escape pods, so this would be an ideal place to try it out.
WHAT? What a bizarre idea.
Well with Enterprise, that only leaves room for humans playing around with saucer shaped escape pods for 90 years. Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think Sternbach's idea is pretty cool. Imagine a ship with the bridge in a small lifting body shaped or saucer module, which could detach from the drive section and land on a planet. The original landing function might have been lost as the saucers got larger.
I've also been working on a Baton Rouge. The only thing we know about the side elevation is its height, which is given in the chronology.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've always wondered if the (conjectural) Valiant design seen in the Encyclopedia was supposed to have a detachable nose, using a similar principle. I guess the difference between a cone-shaped command section and a saucer-shaped section is that the saucer can land.
The Baton Rouge is definitely a weird design... how the heck can those tiny pylons support those nacelles? Or at least, contain the necessary plasma transfer conduits?
Posted by Akira (Member # 850) on :
id say the valiant could detatch like the Apollo 11 and such
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: I think Sternbach's idea is pretty cool. Imagine a ship with the bridge in a small lifting body shaped or saucer module, which could detach from the drive section and land on a planet. The original landing function might have been lost as the saucers got larger.
That was the original intention for the Enterprise was it not? Indeed the potential cost involved in filming a saucer detachment and landing prompted them to invent transporters IIRC.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Interesting idea... but would that be practical, from a real-life standpoint? Assuming they had the basic dimensions from the beginning, landing a hundred-meter-diameter saucer seems kind of excessive, if little "boats" (shuttlecraft) could be used instead.
(Of course, using shuttlecraft also required a studio investment, but... )
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Have we not seen Star Trek: Generations, gentlemen?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Here's something I sketched a few months ago when developing my Swordfish class carrier. http://www.starfleet-museum.org/swordfish-sketch1.gif (Ignore the variable-geometry nacelles).
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Have we not seen Star Trek: Generations, gentlemen?
Well, duh! I was ignoring the obvious because any well-informed individual who's likely to visit this forum would already know about that specific instance. And besides, that particular incident is 150 years or more past the point we're discussing...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, well, Matt Jefferies most certainly *did* design the saucer of the E-nil to be able to separate and land on a planet. Those triangular markings on the underside are retracted landing struts. This procedure was also referenced in "The Apple" (TOS), IIRC. And, as a further side note, the climax of TMP was originally to involve a saucer separation. Storyboards of this can be seen in The Art of Star Trek.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
(I mean the design itself, not the artwork, Harry.)![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I was ignoring the obvious because any well-informed individual who's likely to visit this forum would already know about that specific instance. And besides, that particular incident is 150 years or more past the point we're discussing...