I have a challenge for those of us primarily interested in the "historicity" of Star Trek.
I am primarily interested in the individual fan's interpretation of various key or turning points in Star Trek's fictional history.
Challenge #1: The Eugenics Wars-
We know from the episode "Space Seed" and Star Trek The Wrath of Khan that Eugenics Wars were fought between 1992 and 1996. Key figures in this conflict were possibly quite numerous, but only one figure has a resounding "choke-hold" on the historicity of this subject, Khan Noonien Singh.
We have prescious few on-screen statements regarding this global conflict. We know that from 1992-1996, Singh ruled one-quarter of planet Earth from Asia to the Middle East, and the he was the most powerful and influential of an unknown number of eugenically engineered supermen. We know from The Animated Series that a Stavos Keneclius played some part during this conflict but what exactly is open for speculation. We know that sometime during 1993, eugenics supermen siezed power seemingly at once on Earth in some forty nations. It was at this point, that what has become known as the Eugenics Wars began, and according to Spock's own words on the subject this was "the era of the last of your so-called world wars" with "whole populations being bombed out of existence" with Earth "on the verge of another Dark Ages"
Technologically, we know that during this period, the DY-100 Class spaceship was the most advanced space vessel of the time. We know that following the ceasation of hostilities during the war, Khan Singh either escaped aboard S.S. Botany Bay or was forcibly exiled from Earth orbit at least and recovered at least two centuries later by Enterprise (NCC-1701).
Onto the challenge. Come up with a speculative timeline detailing the events leading up the Eugenics Wars and their conclusion. You may use any reference materials at your disposal, but I would strongly urge you to limit these resources to Original Series-Era materials, as we have all clearly seen, the relevance of this fictional conflict has been virtually ignored by TNG-Era materials and beyond even into Enterprise.
You may as "long-winded" as you can possibly be or as exhaustive as you can get within a speculative timeline. My conditions are such that I am not overly concered with canonical issues. I simply want to the fan's interpretation of these events. Also, feel free to use my email provided here with any and all comments, arguments, orspeculations best covered outside of this forum.
That being said, let the timelines begin!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
March, 2003 - Mark Nguyen reads "The Eugenics Wars" novels. He finds them a little stale, but a worthwile read.
May, 2003 - Mark Nguyen finds this thread, and proposes that anyone wanting a fairly viable treatise on what the Eugenics Wars were to read these books.
Mark
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"Historicity?"
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
The town time travellers go to for R & R.
Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
Do I take you people would rather take a "wait and see" attitude when it comes to trek chronology? Now I dont believe that and I know you don't either
Remember, the keyword in the opening thread was "speculation". and individual perspective on the subject.
So let's try this again shall we?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Summer 2001 - Dan buys "Eugenics Wars, Part I," but never finishes it, found it interesting for weaving various old plot threads together, but ultimately pointless and unentertaining.
I'll have to think about my own speculative timeline.
Oh, and the Eugenics Wars *are* canon according to the TNG timeline, and even the ENT timeline -- to a limited extent, anyway. We saw the Botany Bay model in "Future's End" on Voyager, and a photo of the Botany Bay launching in ENT's "First Flight." So you can't argue it's been forgotten. Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
At last, someone to take up the challenge!
You think about that speculation MinutiaeMan. I am very anxious to read what you have to say!
I realize that various elements of The Eugenics Wars have been visually identified in the series' you have mentioned, but they have yet to officially acknowledge or even mention this conflict on screen (aside from the throwaway reference in DS9). Models and photos of models are nice tidbits, but the hounds are still starving for more, know what I mean?
I want to see chronologically-detailed campaign logs, interesting bits like that we will never see on screen. At this stage of fandom, it wouldn't hurt us to think about the way things could have been.
Posted by Jack_Crusher (Member # 696) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Summer 2001 - Dan buys "Eugenics Wars, Part I," but never finishes it, found it interesting for weaving various old plot threads together, but ultimately pointless and unentertaining.
I'll have to think about my own speculative timeline.
Oh, and the Eugenics Wars *are* canon according to the TNG timeline, and even the ENT timeline -- to a limited extent, anyway. We saw the Botany Bay model in "Future's End" on Voyager, and a photo of the Botany Bay launching in ENT's "First Flight." So you can't argue it's been forgotten.
Where in the opening ENT credits is a DY-100 seen launching?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jack_Crusher:
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: a photo of the Botany Bay launching in ENT's "First Flight."
Where in the opening ENT credits is a DY-100 seen launching?
um.. nowhere. it's not in the opening credits. its in a photo. in "First Flight"
Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
If ENT actually mentions the events of the Eugenics Wars or the DY-100 Class verbally on-screen, then I would be quite pleasantly surprised. Even still, TPTB, in my opinion, would be hard pressed to come up with a plausible explanation for such a drastic turning point in technological history from the launch of an interplanetary spaceship in the 1990s, only to use Apollo-style components for the Aries Program of the 2030s (Voyager Reckoning) to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning) to the warpship Phoenix of 2063 (First Contact reckoning) From there, we are WAAY beyond the scope of this timeline challenge.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
If they had any shred of common sense, they'd make the Eugenics Wars the same as World War III, the way they were always intended to be.
quote:From "Space Seed" SPOCK: The era of your last so-called world war.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course--your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
Spock just misread the fragmentary records and said 1990s when he meant 2040-50s. Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: If they had any shred of common sense, they'd make the Eugenics Wars the same as World War III, the way they were always intended to be.
quote:From "Space Seed" SPOCK: The era of your last so-called world war.
MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars.
SPOCK: Of course--your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding.
Spock just misread the fragmentary records and said 1990s when he meant 2040-50s.
The way Berman and Braga intended it to be perhaps, but the fact is, thats NOT how it happend. TOS was the first on-screen evidence to suggest a last global conflict between 1992 and 1996 period. To alter the past in such a way to support a more "realistic" prediction for the future is simply giving lip service to the founding series and its information.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
So do you propose that there was no global nuclear conflict in the 2050s?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
In any case, it wasn't Berman and Braga (those evil, evil men that everyone trots out when they want to whine about modern Trek) who came up with a global conflict after the 1990s. "A Matter of Time" (TNG) established a nuclear holocaust in the mid-21st century. "Encounter at Farpoint" (TNG) established 2079 as being in the post-atomic horror. "The Savage Curtain" (TOS) referred to a genocidal war in the 21st century.
No, there was clearly a large-scale war in the mid-21st century, and there was nothing wrong with Dark Lord Berman and his Imperial Viceroy Braga running with that in First Contact. There are three ways to go with it. Either:
1.) The Eugenics Wars were just a regional conflict... that involved tyranny over a quarter of the planet, entire populations bombed out of existence, and the brink of a new dark ages for humanity.
2.) The nuclear holocaust was just a regional conflict... that created a planet-wide nuclear winter, threw nations into anarchy, and led humanity to the brink of a new dark ages just a few decades after recovering from the last brink.
3.) They were the same war.
I'm not sure which you support. Obviously, I support number 3. That just leaves the question of dates. The fact that TOS came first doesn't mean that it can't be superceded than anything later. In fact, Roddenberry routinely changed his premises, retconning older ideas throughout the original series. From lasers-phasers to UESPA-Starfleet to Earth-Federation, the man and his staff were never loathe to change their minds. And as we saw above, they had no problem adding a new global war after their previously established "last world war."
That said, there is far more support for a later date for the global conflcit than the earlier. Aside from the Roddenberry-approved references in my first paragraph, there was First Contact, in which it was said directly that the war was a decade before 2063. If the nuclear war was seventy years before the film, it makes Cochrane's situation a little less credible. There is the fact that every time we've seen contemporary Earth, from the 1960s to the 1990s, it has appeared virtually identical to the real world. Khan was genetically engineered by people with no obvious technological advantage over us in the 1950s or 60s... or he was engineered by people with a technological advantage over us in the 2000s or 10s. There is the DY-100 nuclear-powered cryogenic interplanetary vessel, first in a entire family of DY-ships, being more advanced than the Ares of 2032 in "One Small Step" (VGR). There was the space shuttle on many an Enterprise display, demonstating again the technological parity between the universes. Finally, there is all of Enterprise's references to the war, for whatever they're worth.
Or, we can go with Spock's uncertain reference from fragmentary records.
Tough one.
quote:Originally posted by coatlantis1745: to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)
P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
There's also the fact that, realistically, any reference to a big scary world wide war in the 90s that wiped out a whole lot of people is just going to confuse the casual viewer (for which read at least 80% of everyone watching).
So apart from oh-so-cute DS9 references (which placed them in the 2200s anyway, thanks to Mr Ronald "oh, he's soooo much better than Braga because he likes canon stuff" Moore fucking up), I doubt we're ever going to get any out and out comments along the lines of "there was a war in 1996 that was big and scary".
In fact, I would have personally removed the "1996" line from TWOK if I were in charge of the special edition, but I am evil like that.
Anyway, that doesn't stop people from having interesting and thoughtful opinions on the subject. I think they are ultimatly pointless, but I think the same thing about shiplists, so go ahead.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Let's not forget the line in the DS9 episode with Bashir's parents where the Admiral states the Eugenics wars took place "200 years ago". That would place them a good century later than was originally established, yes?
I guess the easiest explanation, if not the most satisfying one, is that sometime between the TOS era and the DS9 era, there was a change in the timeline which pushed the Eugenics Wars back a little bit. This would explain why there is no evidence of them in "Past Tense" or "Future's End"
Maybe Starling or Braxton messed the timeline up.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:
quote:Originally posted by coatlantis1745: to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)
P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...
Shhhh! Don't tell him which one. Or else I'll set the Kung Fu Armadillos on you!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The DS9 line wasn't intended to move the date, though. Moore said he just had "The Wrath of Khan" too much in mind while writing.
Incidently, removing the 1996 line would be a horrible idea, just because Montalban says it so well.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
the books were ok, if not for drama then for their well researched continuity stitching. Greg Cox really does make it all work out, you know..
Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: So do you propose that there was no global nuclear conflict in the 2050s?
At this point, discussion of a global nuclear conflict in the mid-twenty-first century is beyond the scope of my conditions set for this timeline challenge.
Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: In any case, it wasn't Berman and Braga (those evil, evil men that everyone trots out when they want to whine about modern Trek) who came up with a global conflict after the 1990s. "A Matter of Time" (TNG) established a nuclear holocaust in the mid-21st century. "Encounter at Farpoint" (TNG) established 2079 as being in the post-atomic horror. "The Savage Curtain" (TOS) referred to a genocidal war in the 21st century.
No, there was clearly a large-scale war in the mid-21st century, and there was nothing wrong with Dark Lord Berman and his Imperial Viceroy Braga running with that in First Contact. There are three ways to go with it. Either:
1.) The Eugenics Wars were just a regional conflict... that involved tyranny over a quarter of the planet, entire populations bombed out of existence, and the brink of a new dark ages for humanity.
2.) The nuclear holocaust was just a regional conflict... that created a planet-wide nuclear winter, threw nations into anarchy, and led humanity to the brink of a new dark ages just a few decades after recovering from the last brink.
3.) They were the same war.
I'm not sure which you support. Obviously, I support number 3. That just leaves the question of dates. The fact that TOS came first doesn't mean that it can't be superceded than anything later. In fact, Roddenberry routinely changed his premises, retconning older ideas throughout the original series. From lasers-phasers to UESPA-Starfleet to Earth-Federation, the man and his staff were never loathe to change their minds. And as we saw above, they had no problem adding a new global war after their previously established "last world war."
That said, there is far more support for a later date for the global conflcit than the earlier. Aside from the Roddenberry-approved references in my first paragraph, there was First Contact, in which it was said directly that the war was a decade before 2063. If the nuclear war was seventy years before the film, it makes Cochrane's situation a little less credible. There is the fact that every time we've seen contemporary Earth, from the 1960s to the 1990s, it has appeared virtually identical to the real world. Khan was genetically engineered by people with no obvious technological advantage over us in the 1950s or 60s... or he was engineered by people with a technological advantage over us in the 2000s or 10s. There is the DY-100 nuclear-powered cryogenic interplanetary vessel, first in a entire family of DY-ships, being more advanced than the Ares of 2032 in "One Small Step" (VGR). There was the space shuttle on many an Enterprise display, demonstating again the technological parity between the universes. Finally, there is all of Enterprise's references to the war, for whatever they're worth.
Or, we can go with Spock's uncertain reference from fragmentary records.
Tough one.
quote:Originally posted by coatlantis1745: to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)
P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...
No one is here to whine Im sure, and if your taking my statements made thus far as whining, then that is very unfortunate. Nevermind anyway.
Recalling the fact that I asked anyway up for this challenge to please restrict their sources to the TOS-Era, you would be advised to understand that in "The Savage Curtain" Yarnek said and I qoute "Colonel Green, who led a genocidal war EARLY in the twenty-first century on Earth", stress EARLY now if you will. By my reckoning, early can mean anywhere from 2001 to 2035 (I tend to like 2035 myself but I won't digress). Again, Colonel Green's War is beyond the scope of this discussion.
Now well discuss your itemized statements:
1). Could not have been a regional conflict if it involved at least forty of Earth's nations as stated in "Space Seed". Khan being the sole tyrant of one-quarter of Earth from Asia to the middle east. The rest of your statement here is valid.
2). Again, beyond the scope of this discussion.
3). An invalid statement since the dates for this conflict were clearly mentioned onscreen as being from 1992-1996.
Regarding your choice of 3, that is ofcourse as you wish, but it involves factors which are again beyond the scope of etc etc. The fact that Gene Roddenberry changed his premises is not disputed. It is in fact what drives me to limit the scope of the discussion to strictly TOS-Era material.
In summary, given a choice, I will go with Spock's data on this subject as it is entirely relevant to my timeline challenge.
Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: There's also the fact that, realistically, any reference to a big scary world wide war in the 90s that wiped out a whole lot of people is just going to confuse the casual viewer (for which read at least 80% of everyone watching).
So apart from oh-so-cute DS9 references (which placed them in the 2200s anyway, thanks to Mr Ronald "oh, he's soooo much better than Braga because he likes canon stuff" Moore fucking up), I doubt we're ever going to get any out and out comments along the lines of "there was a war in 1996 that was big and scary".
In fact, I would have personally removed the "1996" line from TWOK if I were in charge of the special edition, but I am evil like that.
Anyway, that doesn't stop people from having interesting and thoughtful opinions on the subject. I think they are ultimatly pointless, but I think the same thing about shiplists, so go ahead.
Alright, welcome to the discussion. That "big, scary war" as you put it DID HAPPEN as stated in the episode "Space Seed". It is in fact 1 of 78 episodes that established a framework of continuity for a television series. Now, if succeeding series claim to be a continuation of that story, then wouldn't it be in the best interests of intelligent and loyal viewers like ourselves to watch the show build upon the foundation of its founders??
I am clearly prepared to watch Enterprise come and go and never make any references to that "big, scary war". Again, what Enterprise chooses to do with the continuity is immaterial to this timeline challenge.
Fortunately for the rest of us concerned with continuity, you were NOT in charge of the audio editing process. The line is established continuity so your stuck with it (Thats is assuming you give a rat's tush about the foundation that TOS has provided)
Now, if our opinions are all indeed pointless on this matter then. . . why have you responded to this at all to this challenge? Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: 1. Let's not forget the line in the DS9 episode with Bashir's parents where the Admiral states the Eugenics wars took place "200 years ago". That would place them a good century later than was originally established, yes?
2. I guess the easiest explanation, if not the most satisfying one, is that sometime between the TOS era and the DS9 era, there was a change in the timeline which pushed the Eugenics Wars back a little bit. This would explain why there is no evidence of them in "Past Tense" or "Future's End"
Maybe Starling or Braxton messed the timeline up.
1). Pass this throwaway line over to the realm of not bothering to calculate the amount of time passage between 1996 and the 2370s.
2). That is indeed an understatement Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds:
quote:Originally posted by coatlantis1745: to a hodge-podge of space shuttle and conjectural S.S. Valiant components in the NASA vessel Charybdis in 2037 (TNG Reckoning)
P.S. That wasn't an actual design on an actual Okudagram, that was drawn by one of your fellow posters...
Shhhh! Don't tell him which one. Or else I'll set the Kung Fu Armadillos on you!
I confess I am not sure exactly who the author of that fine illustration was, but do tell him it was an impressive drawing anyway. Posted by coatlantis1745 (Member # 1034) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: the books were ok, if not for drama then for their well researched continuity stitching. Greg Cox really does make it all work out, you know..
As I stated earlier, Greg Cox did a fine job in stating his case for the entire sequence of events, I just happen to think that he should have left the cloak and dagger premise behind.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by coatlantis1745: In summary, given a choice, I will go with Spock's data on this subject as it is entirely relevant to my timeline challenge.
Indeed, and I apologize for hijacking your thread. This is the creativity forum, after all.
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