Using data from Winchell Chung's website I've been working on some 3-D and 2-D maps of the Star Trek universe. The first step was to map out all the real stars in 2-D and assign them colors according to their distance above or below Earth. The second step was to make a 3-D map by raising or lowering the stars the indicated distance. This map includes images of all the stars projected onto Earth's plane (I might change these to grey) with ascenders or descenders connecting to the 3-D stars. The stars with white borders are believed to be capable of supporting habitable planets.
Most of the stars' name are their true names. I've put in a few Federation founding members at their traditional fandom locations. The interstellar lines indicate standard routes, generally shorter than 3 parsecs and available to fusion-powered ships. These maps are only the core areas around Earth, but I'm working on other maps with diameter of 100-ly around Earth.
Comments welcomed! (These are WIPs, so please ignore the screwed up crossing of lines and stuff)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'd put Romulan territory somewhere close to Vulcan off the edge of the map.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
P.S. VERY nice.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Hey cool. You made that without any support from a 3D plotting software?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Hey cool. You made that without any support from a 3D plotting software?
Yup, I did it the old fashioned way with technology from the 14th century! Winchell Chung has maps showing stars in galactic coordinates. I used the 3-D rotation tool to make the flat image recede to a single vanishing point. Raising or lowering the map above or below the earth plane involved just shrinking it vertically. Simple in theory but a bit labor-intensive.
I bow before the overwhelming coolness of your geekiness.
*bow*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Nice that Andoria and Vulcan are roughly on the same plane - fits with Enterprise and them having ?I think? a shared border. 18 Epsilon Eridani = P'Jem? Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Very cool, Masao! Although I haven't tried anything like this myself, it might be interesting to take the data and create the Star Trek universe within Celestia, complete with all the planets. (I downloaded that a couple of weeks ago and I haven't stopped playing with it yet!)
B.J.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Aban: I am not a geek. I'm just a socially maladjusted obsessive.
Andrew: Fandom has placed Andor (Epsilon Indi) and Vulcan (40 Eri) on opposite sides of Earth but at a difference in depth of only 2 parsec or so. ST: Enterprise (and Geoffrey Mandell's Star Charts) put Andor (Procyon) and Vulcan (still 40 Eri) apparently right next to each other on a 2-D map. On a 3-D map, however, they differ in depth by 4 parsecs (13 light years). Star Charts also locates P'Jem someplace between Procyon and 40 Eri, but I'm not sure it's a real star. I dont' have the book with me right now to check.
BJ: I've considered buying a star mapping program like Celestia, but that's one more thing I'd have to learn.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
You beat me to this. I've been wanting to do something like this for ages, as part of an effort to try to figure out what the Federation really looks like. I was going to start with the Enterprise time period and work my way out from there.
That said, I'm quite certain your maps look better than anything I would've come up with. Nonetheless, is there anything that can be done about the lines between stars? It could just be me, but I find the below:
. . . to be a cleaner and easier-to-read presentation than Chung's heavily-lined maps.
Just a thought.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Say do you think you could pinpoint the location of the delphic expanse
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
MNW: So far these are only real stars (with a few trek names attached). Other than that I haven't started trying to match up trek locations yet. I think the Delphic Expanse is shown in Mandell's Star Charts.
Guardian2000: I'm still fiddling with the lines. They're of different widths because they were imported from a rotated 2-D image. I'll probably have to redraw most of them.
I coudn't get that anzwer.org page to load.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Celestia is, incidentally, free.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Say do you think you could pinpoint the location of the delphic expanse
well, first he'll have to get her a bit drunk and then...
Amazing work (as usual) Masao. Now us this to tell my Star Trek Horoscope. Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Okay! I got Anzwer to load. That's a nice map, but it mostly for location rather than for interstellar routes, which my maps are for. The concentric circles also look nice, but maybe they're too Earth-centric for the Federation.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK now one would ask - WHY was the Borg Cube in BoBW coming at Earth from the backside?
2 theories:
1. It dropped out of a transwarp conduit that put it that side of Earth.
2. It was the same cube from "Q-Who?" and System J25 is in a direction towards the galactic rim.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
WOW! Great work, Masao. The way you've color-coded depth is brilliant. An elegant solution. Winchell is the bomb, yo. Definitely one of the nerdiest/coolest sites out there.
I had the idea to do this a couple years back, but gave up in frustration due to the intractable problems of deciphering canon locations/distances. I decided that my own SF show would make the map ahead of time and so I got to work. Should you want it, I've got the Hipparchos dataset (with calculated cartesian coords) into an Excel file. It's a big file, though.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I used to have a Celestia script with a number of core Trek worlds marked out, but sadly I lost it during some re-install. I did start making some 2D maps from those, but that was all part of my abandoned (frozen?) Kzinti War stuff.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Winchell's site has a nice data set in CSV format that he boiled down from Hipparchos. He has subsets for various distances out from earth and for habitable systems. The data is in galactic coordinates in parsecs. His data leans toward gaming, so focuses on interstellar distances rather than actual locations. He has what he calls 2 1/2-D maps which dispense with stellar positions and focus completely on connections.
Mapping the real stars is not the hard part, of course. The hard part is reconciling Trek stars with real stars. It's no easier than trying to come up with a Trek Chronology that every agrees with. I barely started with that.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Especially with contradicting info from different shows and different eras. You've got a terrific start, though. It really gives a sense of which system is where. I can't remember, are you an Adobe Illustrator kind of guy (and if so, ever mess with Dimensions? )? Please, elaborate on your process if you feel like sharing.
It is a lot cleaner without the as/de-cenders. Nice touch droping the "negative" vertical systems and routes behind the grey-shadow map. Slick as snot. It'd probably make a huge mess, but it'd be super awesome to have semi-transparent meta-blobies for the different territories.
So when is someone going to develop a 3-D star-maping program where we graphic designer snobs can tweak the colors/positions/typefaces/size/texturemaps of all objects within a fully customizable interface that will output movie files as well as high-res renders? Also this software should be totally free. What? I don't think I'm asking too much.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'd like to see one with glowing stars - rotating and made from real star-images Oh and all as a hologram. Is that asking too much? Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Whoa I just tried Celestia and that was the most nausiating, most nerve racking thing I've I tried. Andrew if they ever made holographic star maps,I think I'd pass out if I tried to use one.
Oh and Masao where can I get Mandell's star charts.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The new one: Star Trek: Star Charts. You might also want to try to hunt down Star Trek Maps, which is older, and more scientifically written.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I did this all in Freehand. I didn't use anything special except the 3-D rotate tool to give the original 2-D map a bit of perspective. After that it was just elevating the stars to their proper heights.
I have Star Trek Maps but haven't been able to figure them out! I remember Geoff Mandel saying once that he didn't know anything about galactic coordinates when he did those.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So....he was really qulified then.
No wonder Pocket blames the lackluster sales of such specialty books (justifing the cancellation of the Unseen Frontier book) on us fans, after they went to the trouble to hire an expert like that....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I bet no one bought it because of it not having an accurate galactic coordinate system because all Star Trek fans have the NGC tattooed on their spine, and also that the differences between Star Trek Maps and the modern version were nonexistent despite them being seperated by nearly twenty years.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Don't get Star Trek Maps mixed up Star Trek Star Charts. Star Charts relied heavily on work done by Christian R�hl for his ST Dimension site with input from our very own Timo (he's from Iceland, isn't he?). This book uses galactic coords, so is pretty accurate, in an astronomic sense.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or no one bought it because it's not really something the fans wanted or asked for...unlike that other book. YOu know, the one that we all aited years for that they decided not to make in favor of Star Charts and the (incredible!) Starship Spotter.
Griping about Mandell not knowing anything about galactic coordinates is just my venting and haeping all the ills of the Trek franchise onto his shoulders. It makes me feel better.
I'd be inttrested in seeing what sales goals Pocket had for that book though.
[ August 21, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Don't get Star Trek Maps mixed up Star Trek Star Charts. Star Charts relied heavily on work done by Christian R�hl for his ST Dimension site with input from our very own Timo (he's from Iceland, isn't he?). This book uses galactic coords, so is pretty accurate, in an astronomic sense.
And I think FLARE itself needed a credit there because I RECKON that Christian would have had a long read of all our MAP threads from 1997 onwards.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Um. . . why?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Star Trek Maps was created by a rather large group of people, including Lee Cole, Jeff Maynard, Michael McMaster, Rick Sternbach and Mandel.
The Charts were made in a very different time, with probably a much tighter budget and less interest from the publisher.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: So when is someone going to develop a 3-D star-maping program where we graphic designer snobs can tweak the colors/positions/typefaces/size/texturemaps of all objects within a fully customizable interface that will output movie files as well as high-res renders? Also this software should be totally free. What? I don't think I'm asking too much.
Celestia comes pretty darn close.
B.J.
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
Hot damn, that's a REALLY well done map. Very LCARS too. the 3d versions are make much more sense than the 2d version did at first. Excellent job, man.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Thanks, Jesus. I'm still tweaking it. I found I misplaced some stars and might do away with the perspective and the frames. Stay tuned!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Thanks, Jesus.
Snicker.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A sad day when Masao is tweaking stars and Jesus is complimenting him on it.
hmm...mabye Masao lied on his resume to get the job. Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
Masao, if you like I try to locate my old emails in which I discussed Dan Carlson's placement of your Romulan War... Somewhere I might have the one or other picture left as well, though I can't promise, a lot of Star Trek images made by me were lost in a hard drive crash
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Thanks, Kobi. I'd appreciate it. Dan and I were trying to find some of our old maps of the Romulan War on our on computers, but without much luck. I'm pretty sure I made some campaign maps, but I seem to have misplaced them.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
I still have some of the emails and fortunately also the source file for my maps.
I have uploaded my 3d-views to my server, there is also a video that shows the "warground" as seen as from different angles.
Here is the list, though IIRC "CP-69�177" was later identified as Romulus
(SLS=Sol Like Star) Qualor = CC Eridani Deneva = 82 Eridani - SLS Vulcan = Epsilon Eridani (here I have to disagree, because Gene Roddenberry favoured 40 Eridani that is more likely to inhabit life) Cheron = HD 13445 - SLS
Andor = Zeta Tucanae - SLS Yadalla = p Eridani (some charts list it incorrectly as rho Eri) Pvarto = Moved to CP-68�41 Beta Hydri = I doubt this will become a colony, because the star is turning into a nova instead the Andorians can found a colony on Gliese 877 suggested name: Th'allt
Further (dim) Stars Devron = CP-69�177 (see note) Dessica = GJ 1061 Tomed = NN 3210 Topaz = GJ 2034
That is what I could find in a quick search, I assume I have some paper notes elsewhere...
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Thanks, Kobi. Do you have any maps that I made and sent to you?
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Thanks, Kobi. Do you have any maps that I made and sent to you?
Sorry, I looked again through your mails, but there are only ship schematics Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
OK, thanks anyway.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
OKay, here are my (pathetically late, I know) grupes and questions on the otherwise excellent Star Charts book (whick I finally recieved after waiting a month for Amazon to ship the frekkin thing!).
Why would Chintoka be sooo far from Cardasia? The book places Bajor squarely withing cardassian territory, but with their pending Fed membership, they were practically asking for a war...it'd be like the Romulans admiting Tellar into it's Empire and expecting a peaceful outcome.
The map of the Dominion seems really off- none of the worlds listed (Karemma, the buff Oompa Loomas, the Hunters, etc.) are actually shown as within the Dominion's borders but we know they're members of the Dominion!
Hell, the Founder's new homeworld is listed as several hundred light years outside the Dominion! Seems a rather silly (and vulnerable!) place to re-locate.
Aside from that, there's nothing major I see as "off"....okay, that the RMZ just sorta ends near Iconia is a little strange.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Why would Chintoka be sooo far from Cardassia?
Well, why not? It's supposed to be a weak spot in their lines, after all.
quote: The book places Bajor squarely withing cardassian territory, but with their pending Fed membership, they were practically asking for a war...
It's more like the direct consequence of the LAST war. Apparently, the Feds carved a huge hole into the "northeast" flank of the Cardassians, and stopped just short of invading Cardassia itself, or liberating Bajor. They then withdrew, not annexing any of the space they had taken from the Cardassians, since Feds are nice guys.
At least, that's my rationale for it. The reason for this is the original Okudagram which establishes Bajor as being the very closest system to Cardassia, combined with the extended Okudagram that shows the borders of the Cardassian/Dominion space. Canon data, in short.
quote:it'd be like the Romulans admiting Tellar into it's Empire and expecting a peaceful outcome.
You mean the same guys who wanted to invade Vulcan in "Unification"?
quote:The map of the Dominion seems really off- none of the worlds listed (Karemma, the buff Oompa Loomas, the Hunters, etc.) are actually shown as within the Dominion's borders but we know they're members of the Dominion!
Indeed. And the scale is off by a factor of ten. An unfortunate consequence of limited time and interest in proofreading this section...
Supposedly, both Karemma and Dosi are on the fringes of Dominion space, indicated in violet (the dotted orange line was some sort of a last-minute misunderstanding). Which is where they probably ought to be, considering their apparent proximity to the wormhole and their ability to trade with Alpha, as opposed to the absence of Dominion counterreaction. And there never was any real indication that the Hunters/Tosks would be Dominion members (even if the former had Jemmie-style guns).
quote: Hell, the Founder's new homeworld is listed as several hundred light years outside the Dominion! Seems a rather silly (and vulnerable!) place to re-locate.
I'd rather use the term "hideout world". And no, the new hideout is not really supposed to be outside the Dominion: the violet hue was supposed to be the extent of the Dominion. There was probably a mixup of some sort with the idea of old Iconian presence there.
In short, perhaps it would be for the best if pages 74-75 be ignored altogether...
quote:...okay, that the RNZ just sorta ends near Iconia is a little strange.
Well, this was an attempt at a compromise between the ideas of a solid, unviolated RNZ of simple geometric shapes on one hand, and Romulan presence elsewhere in the quadrants on the other. Earthlings thought they were "separating planets Romulus and Remus from the rest of the galaxy" (TOS "BoT") when they created the almost complete enclosure that seemingly extended beyond the range of starships. Time changed all that, though. The RNZ leaks a lot where the Klingons have expanded to border on it; and the far side is in practice uncontrolled, resulting in lots of leakage.
When I originally sketched this thing, the RNZ just sort of faded on the far side. Mandel changed that to this abruptly ending thing with a clear gap in it, though, making it look a bit funny.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Hey, if the book can misplace Timo by over a thousand miles, what's a few light-years in planetary terms, eh?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While it was never made clear in dialogue, the Hunters/TOsk were always itended to be Dominion members. The writers had meant to staff the large dominion cruisers (Dukat's) with Wadi and Hunter technicians alongside the Jem'Hadar (who serve only as shock troops). The idea was to imply a link between the Tosk's invisibility and the Jem'Hadar's shrouding- same scaly skin too- and make the point of genetic manipultion more aparant. PLus the guns thing which I'd forgotten (and they used that prop to death anyway, unfortunately). (shrugs)
I think I'll just scan and alter the Dominion map for accuracy...I'll get your input once I start (next week probably). Are there other worlds known in the Gamma Quadrant that are left off the map? It seems there must be but...
I do indeed think the Romulans invading Vulcan would have led to war....eventually. So soon after W359 and with the Fed's fleet so dispersed, the Romulans might have had a chance to consolidate their forces and entrench in the system. Even if they retreated (likely) they'd leave behind hundreds of agents within federation borders that could claim to be vulcan refugees from the initial invasion.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Eventually? I'm not sure I see the point of a Federation at all if war isn't declared the very moment Romulan soldiers invade a member world.
Now the actual prosecution of a war is, sure, a different thing.
Also, Tosk must really be a Dominion experiment but the refit Enterprise can't detach its saucer?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
(sigh) It can detach- as a lifeboat in extreme emergencies- that's what Probert intended and there's red pinstripes along the seperation area and everything. I just hate the storyboard showing the detached saucer itself as some klingon battlecruiser-ass-kicking machine. Three battlecruisers no less.
If the Romulan invasion had proceeded according to their plan, it would have caused great confusion and I think the Federation would have (back then in TNG) sent in the obligitory task force of ships to confront the Romulans while the Council prepared some emergency resolution....
It would have likely taken a few days for the Fed to get it's ducks in a row, confirmed an actual invasion and made it's standard political overtures and veiled threats before taking a major military action taht would lead to interstellar war. And as Sela pointed out, they'd have dug in by then- we dont know what all was on those Vulcan ships other than troops, but it's likely (to me) that several cloaked Warbirds would have gone along as orbital/in system support.
Assuming the Romulans did not employ a policy of destroying any starfleet ship that entrerd the system.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Not to mention a forced extraction of entrench troops from a friendly planet isn't going to be popular with the council.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Whole lotta Vulcans would likely croak too. I wonder if Romulans still retain the adaptation to the thinner atmosphere and heavier gravity...
Probably not.....that might be a way to tell Vulcans from Romulans- Rommies would need some drug in their system to compensate.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Why wouldn't the Vulcans who left Vulcan seek out another world that was like Vulcan?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
They could well think that since all the wars on Vulcan had been over the possession of water, it would be a good idea to settle on a planet with lots of water. (The Romulan capital city seems to be a harbor...)
Also, Vulcans apparently aren't native to Vulcan. Even though they have some desert adaptations from their 600,000 years of residence, they might really prefer a less harsh climate. A planet as lush as Earth, yet as warm as Vulcan, might be their idea of paradise.
Or then it's a "beggars can't be choosers" thing.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I vote for the "beggars cant be choosers" notion- the fleet of exiles might have settled on the farthers system that their ships could get them to or they just ran out of gas near the Romulus/Remus system and called it destiny.
There is a detailed backstory in the novels about how difficult the first Romulan settlers had it in their unfamilliar watery new world- disease from moisture and their lungs being very prone to sickness (coming from a world with zero humidity).
Even from orbit, it's clear that Romulus is covered with oceans.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Surely we're not putting any credence in what random brains in jars tell us?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just pointing out an attempt to fill the big inexplained holes in Vulcan/Romulan history.
For the record, my brain is kept safely behind my zipper.
Here's aquestion on the Charts book- Why is Icobar right next to Iconia? It would make sense if the Iconians could not easily walk through a Gateway and be in another quadrant, but it seems ...wrong to have a world that sounds so much like "Iconia" be so close to the Iconian homeworld, and yet have Varley talking about how the Iconians were "thought to be legends" and all that.
Someone would have searched the nearby systems looking for Iconia (just as people have serached for Atlantis for centuries).
Juat an observation really, but it woulld hake more sense if Icobar was far far away from Iconia (to me, but I also say varley was a bad Captain and got his crew killed for nothing).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I was refering to Timo's post, which I assume is in turn refering to that Sarpeidon fellow.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ah. I thought you might be referring to my "brain in a jar" joke from the "We're so boned" thread.
Here's a question for ya- were the Remans native to Romulous and just got "displaced" by the invading vulcans or did they always live on shithol....er..."Remus".
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Current evidence sort of suggests they are natives to either Romulus or Remus, merely enslaved by the newcomer Vulcanoids.
Since they hated slavery so much, it's hard to tell if they hated Remus, too. From their vampirelike habitus, though, one would think Remus would be heaven to them, and Romulus would be hell. So my bet is for them to be the native inhabitants of Remus before the Romulans came.
quote:Here's aquestion on the Charts book- Why is Icobar right next to Iconia?
Blame Mandel, not me. I never even thought that Iccobar was a planet: from the way it's used in "Contagion", it sounded more like a language, possibly spoken on a number of planets, perhaps on none.
However, it sounds as if the Iconians were fairly local players in the end. Bombardment of a single world seemed to collapse their reign. Perhaps they merely went to places, like the Sikarians, and never really established themselves at places, like actual galactic empires do? This would fit with having the "relic languages" spoken in places close to the actual planet Iconia.
Also, if Iconia was a relatively puny entity, it would then follow that those who defeated it were no giants, either. They'd leave little heritage themselves, and the expansion of the Romulans would quickly make the territory inaccessible to archaeology. Quite possibly, all the clues lay on the Romulan side of the RNZ, making them off limits to meddling outsiders for the past couple of hundred years - and perhaps for the past two thousand years, too, depending on how territorial the Romulans were back then.
As for why nobody found the place before the Romulans claimed the turf, I'll just speculate that the destroyers of Iconia were themselves destroyed so utterly that a major archaeological effort on top of a major archival dig would be required to verify even the existence of Iconia, let alone its location. It's not as if anybody found much of the Tkon, either...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Encyclopedia agrees with Timo, re Iccobar.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Something to delete when I Photoshop the maps into one giant wall-covering tapersty for my art room?
Any other tweaks/revisions you guys would make (other than the Dominion stuff, which I already have in mind and will post as it progresses).
The Iconians might not originate from the world they called "Iconia" at all, you know- it coud have been just a transportation hub for them or some other visible target to their local enemies.
Or it could have served as some sort of a "gateway amplifier" to increase range- sort of like how the Borg have thir Transwarp Hub- with it destroyed, the Iconians might have been cut-off from the Beta Quadrant.
Iconians might still be living peacefully in the great unexplored parts of the galaxy or chillin' in the Greater Magellic cloud- away from distracting orbital bombardments from primitave screwheads.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But what difference does it make, really? The Iconians used to be around, then Iconia was bombed down to the mantle, and now they're not.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I imagine it matters a great deal to the Iconians.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But I mean to someone interested in making a Star Trek map. We could postulate all sorts of crazy theories about the Iconians but at the end of the day the planet called Iconia is at some particular spot.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
In the Romulan Neutral Zone isn't it?
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Something to delete when I Photoshop the maps into one giant wall-covering tapersty for my art room?
Any other tweaks/revisions you guys would make (other than the Dominion stuff, which I already have in mind and will post as it progresses).
One of the two empires for the Kzinti maybe... remember, there is one named "The Patriarchy" and another "Tzenkethi Coalition"
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Keep the Patriarchy. It's in the Bootis direction for a reason (see Nivenverse's speculations on Kzinhome location).
The Tzenkethi are going to get a novel treatment soon enough, I hear. That is, a Ben Sisko novel dealing with him, Leighton, the supporting cast from "Catch-22", and nasty aliens that probably aren't going to look like rat-tailed, batwing-eared cats.
Also, if you are into wall art, you'll probably want to fill the upper right corner of the A/B map somehow. The space beyond the Romulan Star Empire was rather devoid of points of interest, but you could for example put the New Frontier adventures in there to fill the vacuum. We know that Calhoun and co. were somewhere far away from the war zone, and this "back yard" is as good a spot as any.
The lower central areas in turn will soon get more meat on the bones from the Vanguard series...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Cool- thanks for the ideas! Mabye that "New Frontier" region (Thallolian Empire) would be out in that empty area...I did not consider that as the books are a big disapointment to me, but mabye...
I was thinking about ditching the horrible text used for headers and replacing it with a nice LCARS curved rectangle bar thingie and using the "dead space" to place a legend.
For the Tzkenthi, "Patriarchy" sounds best. "Coalition"- sounds like an agreement between pals, not a tough dictatorship like the Tzkenthi are supposed to be (though who knows with the new book exploring things?).
Are the regions of space held by the Shelliak or the Jarada listed? The Jarada were never actually shown but I think their space was near wherever the Enterprise was during the episode they were mentioned in.
Why is Pacifica sooo far from Sol when the Enterprise managed to get from there back to Sol in Contagin pretty damn fast (days at most, I'd guess).
Timo, was there anything you noticed that was omitted since the book was published?
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
There is a tiny hint to the Sheliak empire on the second fold-out "Known Space", But it is located far far far behind the Breen empire as per the star "Sheliak" (Beta Lyrae). However information suggests that the Sheliak come from the Shelia star system. (see MA:Sheliak and MA:Sheliak (star))
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I prefer to think the Shelia system in out by Tzkenthi space rather than think Enterprise was waaaaay past Breen space as early as The Ensigns of Command.
With both Sheliak and Tzenkethi in that neighborhood, it would make sense that we never saw either onscreen- less contact means less conflict sometimes.
I'd only give hem a tiny territory though- mabye a fifth of what is listed as Tzenkethi space.
Sound about right?
EDIT: Hmmm...after looking at the Charts, I see that there's a smallish space "north" of Sol called "The Patriarchy" already. Excuse my ignorance on this, but what is this from? TAS? If so, I can ditch it (along with "Cait"- fuck that nonsense) and put something intresting there instead.
Mabye a Howard Johnsons or a White Castle.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I may be missing something here, but we did see the Sheliak onscreen, unless you're specifically talking about their homeworld. And if you want to get nitpicky, they signed their big long agreement in 2255 (I looked it up), so hadn't they ought to be somewhere adjacent to Federation exploration in that era?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
YOu are correct- we did see the Sheliak: I'm tired.
I meant we did not see the Jarada onscreen (though they get mentioned once or twice)- I was trying to recall which episode mentioned them and fucked up.
The notion of the Sheliak being in with Tzenkethi space is still valid though for the reasons stated (and because it worls better as Beta Lyrae than BFE Breen country).
Hmmm..while certainly not definitive, it would be intresting to know where Enterprise was in the prior episode (assuming the stardate is not too far off between episodes).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Why is Pacifica sooo far from Sol when the Enterprise managed to get from there back to Sol in [Conspiracy] pretty damn fast (days at most, I'd guess).
That's because Pacifica has to be next door to Mira, the place where Picard meets Walker Keel. And Mira is a real star (Omicron Ceti) at that distance from Earth.
Omicron Ceti also appears in TOS "This Side of Paradise". If Kirk and a bunch of colonists could reach the location in reasonable time, I'd assume Picard could do the same or better. And Mira isn't THAT far in comparison with places like Canopus, Antares or Rigel: when the reason is good and the cause is just, our heroes in TOS and TNG alike can span distances of several hundred lightyears in a matter of days.
As for the Sheliak, I sort of assume they actually live at Sheliak and not in some nearby location in the direction of Sheliak. That's because Tau Cygna (sic) is also a real star, and quite a bit farther away than the "usual suspects". How the colonists got past or through Cardassian or Breen territory isn't that big a mystery, considering how leaky Cardassian space is in DS9... There's also always the third dimension.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:There's also always the third dimension.
And fourth through seventh in Trek.
So- how much space should our baggy Sheliak pals get? Not much, for certain but something should be out there at Sheliak if they have Federation-ceded colony worlds.
It seemed the Sheliak colony ship had traveled a long distance to reach that ceded planet too...
Any idea where that disputed world would be exactly? For the Sheliak, i'm thinking of a small region of space (bordering sorta southwest of Tzenkethi space) with three or four tentacle like branches leading outward to their colonies.
I still dont see how the Tzenkethi have a "Patriarchy"- what I've seen of the Kzin tells of their females being sub-sentient and the Kzin being chauvanistic o an extreme as a result.
But that's assuming the Kzin and Tzenkethi are related- and of course, they cant be, beacuse "giant tiger-people" is a really lame idea.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote: Any idea where that disputed world would be exactly?
On the second fold-out page at the end...
Since both the Sheliak and Federation colonists seem to have come a long way, it does make sense for Tau Cygni to be out in the sticks. And the Sheliak can well be a mighty empire three times the size of the UFP, as long as they are sufficiently distant.
I've never thought of the Tzenkethi as Kzinti, really. The Patriarchy of the Charts is where the felinoids live, plain and simple - although no doubt they have aggressively colonized the neighborhood. The Caitians are quite distant relatives, and live in completely different direction...
As for the Kzinti having a "patriarchy" in the first place, blame Niven. That's pretty much the "official" name for their excuse for a society.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I still dont see how the Tzenkethi have a "Patriarchy"- what I've seen of the Kzin tells of their females being sub-sentient and the Kzin being chauvanistic o an extreme as a result.
Well, that is the definition of Patricarchy:
2 entries found for Patriarchy. pa�tri�ar�chy Audio pronunciation of "Patriarchy" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-�rk) n. pl. pa�tri�ar�chies In both senses also called patriarchate.
1. A social system in which the father is the head of the family and men have authority over women and children. 2. A family, community, or society based on this system or governed by men.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo:
quote: Any idea where that disputed world would be exactly?
On the second fold-out page at the end...
Since both the Sheliak and Federation colonists seem to have come a long way, it does make sense for Tau Cygni to be out in the sticks. And the Sheliak can well be a mighty empire three times the size of the UFP, as long as they are sufficiently distant.
I've never thought of the Tzenkethi as Kzinti, really. The Patriarchy of the Charts is where the felinoids live, plain and simple - although no doubt they have aggressively colonized the neighborhood. The Caitians are quite distant relatives, and live in completely different direction...
As for the Kzinti having a "patriarchy" in the first place, blame Niven. That's pretty much the "official" name for their excuse for a society.
Timo Saloniemi
Hmmmm... that explains a lot. Did the "Patriarchy" ever get a mention anywhere besides TAS?
Hopefully, the upcoming book will make the Tzenkethi unique (though hopefully also not typical humanoids with nose/forehead deformaties).
I've got a (Excelsor sized) Shelliak cruiser in the works just now, (as I've been challenging my fellow modelers to come up with alien Trek ship designs instead of endless Federation variants) so mabye I will give them a bit of space out in the unknown region the Breen hail from.
Herb: it's just a very odd name for an alien species. I know all about universal translators and all that jive, but some terms sound too earth-centric in their origins.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
What, like "empire"?
What do you want them to be called? The Kzinti Ziggityboo? The Kzinti Qkghfdrjbf?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ziggityboo! No one is going to take their warcries seriously.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Ziggityboo! No one is going to take their warcries seriously.
Ziggityboo... a truncated form of the ancient Kzinti word Ziggitybootylicious.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Ziggityboo! No one is going to take their warcries seriously.
Because giant cat-men in bright pink spacesuits would be taken seriously otherwise, right?
It just seems that they went out of their way to avoid using the same descriptive term for any two empires where possible (aside from the Klingons and Romulans, of course- their "Empire" designations are TOS canon).
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Here are the almost final versions of my 100-lightyear-diameter flat and perspective maps centered on Sol. As before I haven't put in any Trek names other than Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar in their old fandom locations. The other stars have their real names, and all stars are in their true locations. I hope to assign Trek names to the systems were now believe to be habitable (indicated by white borders, large white names, and thick connecting lines) but I'm too tired for that now.
These maps are a bit jaggy and suffer from some line drop outs, but I output them as 72-dpi gifs, which is the only resolution and format I could use and still be within Photobucket file limits. Perspective (588 kb) Flat map (772 kb)
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
You, sir, are either insane or insanely talented/motivated. Presently I'm leaning towards the latter. They are beautiful. Well done.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
Yeah they are really cool! And huge...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
You, sir, have just provided the ultimate proof to me and my co-workers (writing this from work on my break) that I am not the geekiest Star Trek fan alive. My sincere thanks.
Still, that's awesome work. And I can provide some suggestions on labeling the planets if you want...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Aha! Finally, online evidence that stopping the Borg at Wolf 359 makes no real sense.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well - (ok I know your comment was meant in jest) lets look at it with a critical eye.
-Wolf 359 sounds cool.
-We don't know if the vessel they encountered at system J25 was the same vessel that was heading for Earth in BOBW. It may have been on the otherside of the Federation from the Galactic core.
-The Transwarp conduit the borg vessel maybe used only had a terminus out past Jouret IV (I think that's the planet Picard mentioned in BOBW).
-Maybe massing a large chunk of Starfleet and Federation tech at an ?uninhabited? system was an attempt to slow the cube down.
-I know it's voyager but I think in Infinite Regress one of Seven's "personalities" said that a mother was rendezvousing with her son at Wolf359 - why there? There may have been a key station at Wolf359 that we never saw and the Borg slowed down to assimilate it. That's when the Federation/Starfleet pounced?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I don't know if I am insane (maybe). This project started off small, but I seriously underestimated the amount of work involved. Since I had already started, I just decided to keep going. However, I've abandoned plans to expand the map to a radius of 100 ly. Now I can get on with my life.
As far as labeling planets, you guys can have at it. Trying to reconcile onscreen references to real stars is not something I look forward to. I'm not that much of a geek!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yes. Yes, you are. This will haunt you.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Masao - you know what you have to do next... some sort of flash/cgi rotatable 3d version.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Flat Map is a broken link.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There has GOT to be an engineer on the boards here somewhere. Someone's gotta make a CAD version of the map, which we can all then enjoy with a free DXF viewer, or something.
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I'm an engineer, but that doesn't necessarily make me the right person with the right tools. You're looking for a 3D version of the map, right? I could easily make one, but since my CAD program is an *exact* modeler, the exported poly count could end up being off the scale, if you used spheres for the stars. I'm wondering what the most accessible format would be, maybe DXF or VRML?
B.J.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
For typical data viewing, a VRML script would be better as you can see it on the net freely enough. I also wouldn't use spheres as the star objects due to the poly count, but close enough approximations could be useful. This would a fairly large undertaking regardless...
Then again, I'm no CAD expert. I'm GIS.
Mark
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
If you go to Winchell Chung's site, his has a lot of links to websites people who are working on various mapping projects. I'm sure someone must be working on some kind of 3-D map. After all, Winchell generates 2-D maps from his data set, so generating 3-D maps would be possible.
Hmmm.....a 3D versin of Masao's and the Star Charts maps would be incredible.
Mabye an interactive website....(dreaming, I know)
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think I'll build a 3D version... out of marshmallows and toothpics!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm...go with pick-up-sticks nad crunchberries. That way, you can always pull a "Galactus" and eath any offending system.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
What, the marshmallows aren't edible in Miami?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Truthfully, I have thought about building a physical model of local space using metal rods and beads. But I could get around the problem of each star having to be supported by its own rod, which would be unsightly, even if very thin or painted black. However, if the rods are used instead to show connections between nearby stars, the rods would be designed to be visible and could be pretty thick and strong. Chemists already use ball and stick kits of this type to build physical models of molecules. Hmm...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: What, the marshmallows aren't edible in Miami?
Well, I dont really know what a marshmallow is. ...then there are the little rock-hard things called marshmallows in cereals (like Luckey Charms).
Crunch berries- puffed corn meal, sugar, food coloring. The perfect planet in a Willy Wonka universe.
[ November 18, 2005, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
Jason: What kind of godless communist nation do you live in without marshmallows? I demand to know so that I may invade, bringing with me freedom and marshmallows.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Been digging through old threads, Jesus? Boy, that sounds weird.
I live the the great surreal state of South Florida (yes, it's it's own litttle sub-state) where we care not for marshmallow dreck and the smore is an urban legend of Northern states (like forests, snow and animals not on leashes).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So, what did you think when you saw Ghostbusters?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That it was, over all, a big disapointment.
Posted by jesus X (Member # 1201) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Been digging through old threads, Jesus?
It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: While it was never made clear in dialogue, the Hunters/TOsk were always itended to be Dominion members. The writers had meant to staff the large dominion cruisers (Dukat's) with Wadi and Hunter technicians alongside the Jem'Hadar (who serve only as shock troops). The idea was to imply a link between the Tosk's invisibility and the Jem'Hadar's shrouding-
I think it was probably for the best that those species were excluded- though it may have been nice to have first season tie-ins. When we look at all the species that were absorbed into the Dominion, there was always a high degree of discontent, the Dosi, Karemma seemed willing to trade or give information on the Dominion, the Founders didn't trust the Breen, the Cardassians betrayed them, I'm sure many of the solid species probably did. When you treat them as disposable though- they probably would have to expect that species forced into service would betray them at the most opportune time. ...and when you can clone species that will follow you as a god, that are willing to die for you, why bother with solids? Jem'Hadar were not only shock troops, they were intelligent too- when the Defiant was commandeered in "One Little Ship" it was noted how quickly the Jem'Hadar were learning all the ship's systems and would not be fooled long.
I wish they would have made a connection between the Hunters and the Founders though, not only for Tosk�s ability to shroud- but it was mentioned that at one point in their history, the Tosk was not a truly sentient species- that the Hunters had bred/engineered the Tosk- which could have been shared with the Dominion.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yeah - not so much the Wadi tie-in - but the Tosk and the Hunters of the Tosk would have been good to have been seen in the Dominion.
I remember in an online Chat - I asked Ron Moore or Robert Hewitt Wolfe - I can't remember - of even Ira Behr - who did the Engineering duties for the dominion as I think the Jem'Hadar would have lacked the finess to repair technical systems. The TOSK - looked like he knew - that would have been cool.
The Vorta would never get their hands dirty in a warp core. I can't remember the response - it was over at Trek Web. Probably about 1998.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The whole point ws that the Dominion was the "anti-Federation" in that they would subjegate entire developing worlds, and raise the overall qulaity of life through technology, but would have to serve...or get the axe (as the race from "The Quickening" did).
I'm sure that most of the Dominionj worlds are faithful simply because they are in a better position than they ever were before their first contact (and because, if they stay in line and contribute rescouces to the Dominion, they're left alone to do whatever- like the Oompa-Loompas that sold Quark the Tueleberry Wine).
The Oompa Loompas would have made good technicians. Karrema too- they cant all be willing to risk Dominion retaliation by dealing with the UFP.
Also consider Weyun's line about the Dominion existing for 2000 years- some of their member worlds would have been part of the Dominion for hundreds of generations- not being part of the Dominion would be unthinkable to them. Every oppressive empire still has countries with strong imperial pride (like the USSR, I suppose).
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I know the Dominion must have had a number of members that were forced to participate in trade and other areas- but since we've seen a great deal of their military, and there has never been a non-engineered species serving on a ship. I would tend to discount their existence. Jem'Hadar are smart- and are also pre-programmed to follow the Founders, to follow the Vorta in the Founders place, but see themselves as superior to all other life.
I would also be less accepting of the idea that every race we saw from the Gamma Quadrant are part of the Dominion- most of the first season there was little mention of them- some didn't seem to know of the Dominion, so I ponder the Gamma Quadrant end of the wormhole was not within Dominion space (at least originally). The Skreeans said they were being oppressed by the T-Rogorans, who had just been conquered by �Something called the Dominion� which they escaped from in the resulting chaos. So though the Dominion was founded 2000 years ago (and if a species held to having offspring at 25 years of age- there would be but 80 generations not hundreds) it is clear that species around the entrance of the wormhole only had contact with the Dominion within their lifetimes.
But again it would have been neat to have the Hunter's/Tosk tied in- They could have been chasing him from far off, even from within the Dominion. Tosk also knew his place, another characteristic that the Jem�Hadar have.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I've also made a map (2d)- You've probably seen a similar one to mine as it is based off a map used by RPers, but I pondered I'd share it: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/mapnew.gif Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, people in the Dominion seemed to have only foggy notions of what the Dominion was.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Oh.. dont know about that. The Oompa Loompas knew well enough...though the Idran system and it's surrounding systems were not actually within Dominion territory. I'd think there are parts of the Alpha Quadrant outside the major empires, that have never heard of the UFP.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't know who you're trying to refer to, but take the Karemma for instance. If I recall correctly they claim they'd never even met a Vorta. They just sent data and I guess taxes to some distant location. And, of course, nobody seemed to know about the Founders.
So, as I said, all the Dominion citizens we saw (in the Gamma Quadrant) apparently had only indistinct ideas about what the Dominion was and how it operated.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
No doubt the Karemma were in relative periphery; more closely integrated worlds might be found deeper in. It's difficult to judge how much deeper, though.
Runabouts were able to get "three weeks" away from the closest known Dominion holdings in "The Ship". Does that mean that the heroes really flew for three weeks (or more like three months, considering that runabouts aren't exactly the cheetahs of the Trek savannah)? Or does it mean that the closest known Dominion holdings were 2.5 weeks away from the wormhole vicinity to begin with?
Probably the borders of the Dominion are really fuzzy. It's also possible, though, that there is no great difference between core and periphery when it comes to having contact with the Vorta or knowledge of the Founders. Perhaps only a select few "raisins in the dough" have factual knowledge, having been punished for a misdemeanor.
Certainly the Founders would prefer a decentralized model: all the less chance that Solids could take over the operation, or that somebody could figure out basic spatial geometry and hit the administrative bullseye of the empire. The Founders were apparently hiding outside Dominion proper both prior to "Die is Cast" and after...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That last idea never flew with me- why would the Founders want a world outside their own defenses? I figured either the new world was well within their protective boundries, they had a concealed fleet withing a minutes notice for defense, or they simply moved locations every so often and Odo got the "current" homeworld's coordinates from the Female Founder in WYLB.
Sol, by "Oompa Loompas" I mean the Dosi from Rules of Acquisition. It's just how I think of them, I guess. (shrugs)
The Karemma never alluded to "never seeing a Vorta"- they seem well versed with the Dominion and even sold the Jem Hadar their torpedos- I'm sure they went through a vorta for that.
The Karemma also recognised Jem Hadar ships on sight and panicked immeadeately- indicating a familliarity with their dangerous nature- they were real nervous about crossing their Dominion overlords.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have a question: where exactly is J-247 anyway? We know it's 7000 Ly from wherever Enterprise was at the episode's start, but where?
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
J-247 is 15 lightyears from J-147 *nods*
That's a very interesting xenological directory you posted above, I'd not seen it before. I wish they would have given more information on each- they went through a lot of trouble to collect them all I ponder, but just gave a bear minimum of info on each. I kinda like how they paired up species that were seen on screen, but we never heard a name for, with those that names were mentioned that we never saw. I don't really like that they included the animated series into it, some are ok, but when a TNG species name was paired up with a TAS alien image it just seemed off.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
They also stamp UFP on any speices they can- Unless Bajor was admitted into the Federation without my knowledge *L*
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, but think of the fun you can have with Photoshop making those TAS aliens look plausable (nudge, nudge).
Bajor gets admitted in the (non-canon, but extremely well-written) DS9 books that start up eight months after the series ends.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
True... *ponders this*
There is just too much conjecture... like the Balduks- I'm not certain that that creature was anything more than a scary holodeck monster.
In many places I'm not bothered by it though
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Yeah, but think of the fun you can have with Photoshop making those TAS aliens look plausable (nudge, nudge).
Bajor gets admitted in the (non-canon, but extremely well-written) DS9 books that start up eight months after the series ends.
those fisrt two are not great, but the third is exceptional and the fourth is pretty nice.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Really? Still, Bajor is not part of the UFP- What is your most favorite DS9 book? I've not read any of the post series books you speak of... And I really should.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
There's a two parter ( Avatar pt's 1 & 2)that starts things off and introduces the new characters (new science officer, first officer, security chief, a conn officer for the Defiant, a counselor and a tactical officer ...among others).
The books really catch the characters and spirit of the show, and just like the show, the stories bleed into each other as a larger plot unfolds.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/mapnew.gif I�d like to fish for some comments on a map I posted earlier and have recently updated thanks to a more expansive species/planet listing I think it was Jason who posted.
The Federation- I tried to make the Federation more fluid than I had it before, and I ponder it could be more fluid still. The UFP is made up of worlds that want to join- Maps tend to give borders to the Empires/groups, but the Federation really should be borderless except where it adjoins another Empire. I�ve tried to put some groups within Federation space like the Lysians, Satarrans, Coalition of Madena, Sheliak, as well as other pockets of space the Federation grew around. I�ve also added many small pockets and single systems outside the main UFP territory that are aligned to the UFP.
The sector system I�ve sub-divided the Federation into- I certainly don�t hold to this, mostly I�ve divided it up this way for ease of use, sectors have been given names and numbers in Trek.
Trill, is it a Federation world, or is it not- it�s listed as being either depending on what source you look at. When Crusher fell in love with the ambassador from Trill- she and everyone else seemed to know absolutely nothing about the Trill, they are not secretive about who and what they are, and if they were UFP members, their physiological profile should be part of the medical database. Sisko seemed to have troubles dealing with the Trill Symbiosis Commission, but the Federation is a republic- planets really run their own affairs, so the lack of co-operation does not really mean that they are not members. We�ve seen several Trill in Starfleet, but an alien can get into Starfleet if they have a note from a ranking officer. Trill have moved to Federation worlds, showing either good relations, or it gives them an in to Starfleet service. Ezri was implanted with the Dax symbiont since she was the only Trill on the ship taking it home- chance occurrence, or are there really many Trill in Starfleet? I�ve left Trill as independent for now.
The Klingons and Romulans I feel control their territory on a tight leash, I did not place any non-aligned worlds within their borders. The Cardassians on the other hand I made a number of spots within the bounds of their Union, but have declared independence after the end of the Dominion war- Most all of the worlds listed in their space are purely, or assumed to be a majority of Cardassian in population, but the Bajora were said not the only people the Cardassians had taken over- and I feel at the conclusion of the war many worlds would be able to pull away from the Cardassians.
TAS Aliens- I�ve largely stayed away from species that were in the animated series, as that is considered non-canon, I did include the Kzinti, Lyrans, and Hydrans as they were major powers. I can accept them into my Trek world view I guess- Perhaps in post-TOS time their militaries have been completely defeated (I gave them just a tiny bit of space), and we just never hear from them.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
Well, what I did notice is the Mutara sector which does not contain Ceti Alpha and Genesis. Also the novelisation by Blish has it that the Botany Bay was on course to Tau Ceti...
What I also consider odd is the fact that you placed Altair so far off the Federation. Note it is near Vulcan and Altair is a real star.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Ceti Alpha does not need to be near the Mutara sector. We don't know how long Khan was on the Reliant and travelling at an unknown warp factor to reach Regula 1.
In thinking about this, I've wonderd if a person could do a map that was truely three dimensional. Right now this map is still 2-D.
What if Klingon and Romulan space wrapped "up" and "above" Federation space (or "down" and "below"). Think of a hand cupping a ball. The ball would be Federation space and the hand could be Klingon or Romulan (or both) space.
This would have the benefit of making Klingon and Romulan space closer to Cardassian space and would likewise put them in the Alpha Quadrant (or partially in it) with everyone else.
Klingons need to be closer to Cardiassia. Well, they don't "need" to be. The Cardassian book "Meditations on a Crimson Cloud" described a time when the Federation had collapsed and the Cardassians and Klingons were the two surviving superpowers. In the Mirror-Mirror universe Cardassia and the Klingons are unified with Bajor.
Now, this could happen if Cardassia and the Klingons are on direct opposite sides of the Federation, but it'd be easier if they were closer. This would also explain the ease in which Klingon and Romulan fleets can reach DS-9 and Cardassia.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Kobi, thanks- since they were both very close to being on the line I pushed them over into Mutara. I'll look for a real star chart in order to place Altair better.
Herb, 3D maps... They can be in many ways mind boggling, I've seen some of the ones here, but most I think have just shown Earth and the surrounding area- to make one of such a wide area would be a bit of a mess, so I've mostly worked on just 2-D maps, looking down on the galaxy from above- I certainly accept that some unseen overlapping is taking place... not all the borders are straight up and down.
From everything I've read, the RSE and KE are strickly Beta.... Qo'nos is very close to the border though- I thought that to be logical since it is freqently visited, even in ENT - Broken Bow (though that episode did take place over a fairly long period of time)(but they also didn't have the fastest warp drive). I feel in the Mirror Universe things are of a different layout. On my map, the Federation has served as a wall- Klingon expansion is then strictly focused away and to the other direction of the UFP and RSE, but in the Mirror Universe I'm sure the Terrans got into a number of good fights with the Klingons, lost after Spock spread his knowledge, and then you have the Klingons expanding our way- and probably expanding with a vengenance. I do not see the Klingon Empire in either being larger that the other... but their expansion our way would have made them closer to Cardassian space, who were also trying to expand in the direction of Earth- as that was the cause of the UFP/Cardassian war, so without a UFP there, I would think it would have been easy for the Cardassians to expand this way, perhaps also in result causing their other borders to be less.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Looking back at the map again... I do think the Mutara sector (with the Mutara Nebula) should be in with Regula. In fact, my impression from STII is that Genesis is in orbit of the same star Regula orbited.
The Enterprise was heavily damaged in the fight with the Reliant. There isn't any way they could have made it clear across the Federation in the shape they were in after Kirk and co. beamed back up from Regula.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There are three distinct locations in the Khan saga: the site of his discovery, the Ceti Alpha system, and the Regula system.
The first has to be within about 150 ly of Earth, since Khan's ship supposedly lacked warp drive. That's all we know canonically, although the Encyclopedia noncanonically suggests this place is in the Mutara sector, and thus supposedly within 20 ly of the nebula.
The second ought to be somewhat off the beaten path in the TOS and TFS eras, or Khan would have been rediscovered earlier. Kirk probably deliberately chose such a system to hide Khan from the Federation; and by that same token, Kirk wouldn't have loitered too far from his designated patrol area (that is, the first location) or the Federation would have found out.
The third ought to be sufficiently distant from the second so that it would not be the very first system explored by the Reliant. It also ought to be within reach of the Enterprise, which had departed Earth at most three weeks prior (the movie makes it look like a couple of hours only, but we can't tell for sure; all we know is that Kirk expected to be back to Earth in three weeks). It should be sufficiently distant that the simultaneous presence of two starships is a real surprise, and that nobody immediately checks when a starship goes silent there. And of course, the Mutara nebula must be within a short sublight hop from Regula; in fact, Regula practically was IN the Mutara nebula to begin with.
All this really sets no constraints worth mention to the Regula location... Anything from 50 to 500 ly out is all right even by Okudaic speeds and distances, and the rest is negotiable. OTOH, Klingons later manage to sneak in to this system, so it might be a good idea to put this fairly close to Klingon space. Not so close that the Feds would actually expect a Klingon invasion, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Ok, I flipped the Mutara and Delta sectors in name, and moved the Mutara Nebula, Genesis, Ceti Alpha with Mutara. I also moved Regulus One and the Regulus system to the Mutara Sector. There were only but a few canon sector names, so I would often name the sector for the most known feature in it, so I changed the name of the �Regulus� Sector which just lost Regulus to �Antares� since it contains the Antares Maelstrom.
Close and far, on a trade route and out of the way is very relative- I could put the dot right on Earth, but the two dots could be quite different in depth.
I added Altair and Vega to the Muratas Sector- they were actually in the opposite direction as Vulcan, but again, Altair and Vulcan could be very high up, and Earth in the middle, and so Vulcan and Altair can be closer to one another than either is to Earth.
El-Auria- I tossed it way out in the Beta Quadrant with some of its noted colonies, (or at least unknown worlds where El-Aurians have mentioned) I figured they had to be somewhat distant if they were attacked by the Borg, and the Federation never helped/ recorded the existence of the Borg, yet it is still close enough for refugees to get to the Federation.
I added seldom (only once) mentioned worlds R-Z. If anyone notices a duplicated location let me know, I uploaded the new map with the same name as before.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
How can you move Regulus, Altair, and Vega? They're all real stars.
Not to mention that Ceti Alpha probably ought to be in the location of the real star Alpha Ceti.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Why? This is Trek. They can have a Ceti Alpha and Alpha Ceti systems. Nothing stopping them.
I personally think Klingon and Romulan space should border at Gamma Hydra. In TOS Gamma Hydra was in Romulan hands but, in the Kobiyashi Maru Gamma Hydra was near the Klingon border.
I e-mailed the guy (was that you, Shakaar?) that did the maps over at ST-Dimensions. He replied that he put Gamma Hydra(e) where he did because that's where the real star is.
If I ever create a SciFi universe, I'll insist the star map reflect the real placement of all stars. We know the locations of several stars within hundreds of light years. That's enough room to pinpoint the locations. And, if you want to have far-flung empires, just give them completely made-up star names.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
When doing that, one has to remember that the stars that have recognizable names are usually poor choices for dramatically interesting, life-bearing star systems.
This is because most of the stars that got dibs on cool names did so because they were BRIGHT. There are two ways for a star to be bright: either you are close to Sol, or you are hot. And most stars naturally only meet the latter criterion, which is not a good thing because hot stars burn fast and may not allow planets (let alone planetary life) to evolve.
On the other hand, there's currently plenty of reason to think that if a star is so dim that it was poorly known or unknown by the late 20th century, it is also prime estate for planetary formation and the evolution of life. Hence, all-fictional stars may be the best way to populate a scifi realm; they can be "inserted" to the real Milky Way without any negative impact on plausibility.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
TSN- Pshhh... I have a Tkon star mover, you just point click and drag. As was said before my last post, the reason for their movement was to reflect their actual locations which I had wrong.
Regulus however I moved back close to where I originally had it- as that is where Regulus is located.
Bah, Gamma Hydra is not on my real star maps, I'll have to find a new one before I move it.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Was the star/planet in STII Regula or Regulus? Could they be separate locations?
Actually, I want to see a SciFi series (or even read one) set just within Sol system. With 9 planets 140 moons and untold other objects (asteroids, comets, etc...), there are plenty of locations for stories. Sure, they aren't naturally life bearinig worlds, but that shouldn't stop a good story. Plenty of ideas out there for artifical stations, domed cities, etc...
Same would hold for all these other stars. Artifical stations would work just fine. Or, just because we haven't found any life bearing planets there doesn't mean there aren't any. We may not be looking in the right spot or just haven't found them yet. I've seen other websites that project where a life bearing planet would be located.
quote:amma Hydrae is most easily found by beginning at Spica (alpha Virginis). Twelve degrees due south of this very bright star is gamma Hydrae, the last 'hump' or coil in the serpent Hydra. �����Gamma Hya is also due east of beta Corvi, if you found this star while searching for M68.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
In ST2, the station had the callsign "Regula I", and the planetoid was simply called "Regula" by Spock. Or then the station carried the name of the planetoid, which would fully have been called Regula I, but Spock felt like slacking that day. Or then the planetoid was actually Regula IX, circling the star Regula, and the station was the first installation in the system and carried appropriate callsign. Or then the star was named Rumpelstiltskin, and the planetoid, which would systematically have been Rumpelstiltskin VII, had the proper name Regula.
...In other words, no way to tell. But nothing in the movie was called "Regulus", that much is sure.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Actually, I want to see a SciFi series (or even read one) set just within Sol system.
Cowboy Bebop. Infinitely cool.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I fear that information won't help very much in finding the location in the galaxy of Gamma Hydrae, as it is only a visual means to find the star in the Terran night sky. Though it does give me a general distance- cause it appears to be of such a distance that it's not on any local maps.
Yup, I shall go with "Regula" incarnations and put it back were you think it should go, and list the star Regulus, where it should actually be!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
This link may help you. It's the Star Trek Dimensions site I mentioned. There is a big section on real stars and star maps.
Thanks Herb, that map helped a lot! Ok, here is the Map: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/mapnew.gif Gamma Hydrae I moved back to almost where I had it- but it fell in what I had UFP space so I pushed RSE space in a wee bit so that it'd fall on their side.
Comments on any other locations?
I ponder someday I'll overlay a grid onto it, and then illustrate the depth of each unit in a manner like this: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/grid.jpg Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.:
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Actually, I want to see a SciFi series (or even read one) set just within Sol system.
Cowboy Bebop. Infinitely cool.
Seconded.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
As we debate the finer points of Federation worlds I�d also like to start on the rest of the galaxy, I ponder I�ll put this on a page later, with an image map of the galaxy you can click and bring up whatever location, and then zoom in further to see the depth views.
It has been quoted that the Federation is 8000ly across- for argument�s sake I�m making it 8000ly across from top to bottom, making it less than half that from right to left. I then centered everything on where the sun is in the galaxy, and then named the arms: Norma, Scutum-Crux, Sagittarius-Crux, Orion, Perseus, & Cygnus- these are actually the names and locations of the arms, Earth rests in the Orion Arm. In TNG-The Price where they were bidding for use of the Barzan wormhole, the first probe through ended up in the Dinkiri Arm of the Gamma Quadrant, Picard states that it would take nearly a century at warp 9 to get there, and that would just so happen to mesh the galaxy image- as there is a slight spur arm that distance away in the Gamma Quadrant. Later though Data reports that the wormhole shifted 200ly into the Delta Quadrant- that�s not very far- 48 days at warp 9, which later in Voyager is on their path home in the middle of the Delta Quadrant, so that doesn�t make sense, but Troi also reads the mind of a Ferengi in that episode, so I�ll add that to my list of ignored details.
If any episodes stick out in any of your minds of containing interesting galactic information please note them� VOY-Ship in a bottle was interesting- Though in their graphic of the galaxy it was a spiral galaxy, and not a barred spiral galaxy- and they referred to everything in the Beta Quadrant as being in the Alpha Quadrant- Why don�t the producers hire a room of us to proof-read the scripts? Don�t they know we�d do it just for like nothing?
Seven mentioned that the relay network seemed to be abandoned, and that once she tapped into it she got signals from all the relays, and later the Hirogen tried to hang up on her- I ponder that an earlier species built it- and the Hirogen later found one of the relay stations and used the entire network- it spanned from the center of the Delta to the center of the Beta Quadrant- and the Hirogen don�t seem to be advanced enough for such a building project.
Well, theoretically you could put the first end of the Barzan wormhole just 100 ly from the Gamma/Delta border (there's still a wisp of that "armlet" you have labeled as Dinkiri there), and the second end (the one where Data and LaForge emerged) 100 ly from that border but on the other side.
You could then postulate that the Ferengi attempted to get aboard the wormhole express for a return trip (since "False Profits" establishes that the freely whipping end does revisit the places it has previously been to), but failed and got dropped off somewhere along Voyager's route. Intact cross-series continuity at the cost of an offscreen complication...
Here's another complication you can use instead: Data might be saying that the initial Barzan readings were doubly at fault: the previous probe actually ended in the Delta quadrant and only falsely read as Gamma, and the mission with Data aboard ended 200 ly from that point.
Perhaps Data only realizes the initial probe readings were in fundamental error when taking a good look at what the wormhole looks like from the other end, and noticing a distorting effect that would fool a dumb probe. Or perhaps the Barzans sent out several probes, the first of which ended up in Gamma, and the others got dropped at various other locations but the Barzans refused to accept their coordinate data because they already "knew" the hole led to Gamma. Data would only reference the records of the penultimate mission when identifying a discrepancy, and would note that that mission had gone to Delta, 200 ly from the location of the crewed mission.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by B.J.:
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Actually, I want to see a SciFi series (or even read one) set just within Sol system.
Cowboy Bebop. Infinitely cool.
Seconded.
What was that Canadian Sci-fi series? Starhunter? That was only in the Sol System.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The map looks really good. A lot more detailed than I ever came up with (not to mention there are a lot more details to add since I tried to make maps 20 years ago...)
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
*L* I realize now that I have a MAJOR scale problem.... As the scale at legend denotes 50ly- this would only make the Federation 500ly across! And it's supposed to be 8000ly- now we can cheat a little I figure in the distance, because the Federation is very nebular and as we get to the farthest reaches the member worlds are more spread out with more non-aligned worlds inbetween them, so we I would say that the 8000ly is determined from the two member worlds that are most distant from one another- This gives me a little wiggle room- but the gap between 8000 and 500 is too great.
Now I don't think much alteration is needed, but real stars are not correct- many of them, with the size of the map are going to pose a problem, because they'd be right on top of Earth- so a zoom in of Earth and the neighboring 100ly is probably needed. I'll have to reponder the location of Gamma Hydrae- it may be too close now to be Romulan on the map.
Trek has always been good in some aspects to following science, but also very poor in some ways- for example, if the UFP is 8000ly - it'd take 5.3 years to cross it at warp nine... yet we're always seeing Empires that seem nearly as vast, and they often get from one to the other quickly, and to other places- like in Star Trek V: the Enterprise makes it's way to the Great Barrier at the core of the galaxy...... Given the known location of the Sun in the galaxy, and the distance to the barrier, which you can see on the galaxy map really, it'd take over a decade at high warp to get there!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shakaar: Trek has always been good in some aspects to following science, but also very poor in some ways- for example, if the UFP is 8000ly - it'd take 5.3 years to cross it at warp nine... yet we're always seeing Empires that seem nearly as vast, and they often get from one to the other quickly, and to other places- like in Star Trek V: the Enterprise makes it's way to the Great Barrier at the core of the galaxy...... Given the known location of the Sun in the galaxy, and the distance to the barrier, which you can see on the galaxy map really, it'd take over a decade at high warp to get there!
Or that DS-9 was supposed to be way out in the sticks, yet is only 3 weeks away from Earth at warp.
Or that vast Klingon and Romulan fleets crossed the entire width of the Federation and arrived at DS-9 (or that any Klingon or Romulan ships did it at all...)
Or that the NX-01 made it from Earth to Q'onos and back in just a few weeks at no more than Warp 5.
No, Trek's not been that good when it comes to size/scale. The size is determined by needs of plot.
It'd be hard due to stellar distances for any fleets to engage in battle unless you could go lots faster.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
On your galactic map, the Federation seems to be almost 15 000 light-years across.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Sorry, I rescaled it, but did not upload it yet, cause I figured with the galaxy being 100,000ly across, with 18 segments across (there are four in the middle that are not there... each would be 5555ly, so it should be 1.5 segments- Then this puts Federation space 18,000ly from the great barrier. I sometimes ponder warp speed is faster than the numbers they put out, though sometimes they do get things right, like how long it would take to get to the Dinkiri Arm.
This has caused me to really look things over, and I had a bit of a head on desk moments....
If warp 9 is 1,516 times the speed of light, oh so fast!, but it would still take 1.2 days to travel to the nearest star! Even low warp shows the stars flying past, but really, they should all be barely creeping, cause that makes no sense that each second many dozen are passed by if it takes over a day to reach one.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
We speculated those streaks you see in TNG could be bits of stellar microparticles hitting the navigation shields and flaring into oblivion.
Yes, those distances are vast. I did't realize it until I researched Edward Jellico's order to Data in "Chain of Command." He wanted to be at Minos Corva in 1 hour so Data gave a course heading and speed of warp 8.5. When I looked that speed up on the chart, I saw they had to already be really, really close to Minos Corva already if they were going to make it in an hour at that speed.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
If warp 9 is 1,516 times the speed of light, oh so fast!, but it would still take 1.2 days to travel to the nearest star!
That's a problem I have with most Trek maps, in that folks often compromise real cartography in lieu of of adherence to Tech Manual speeds.
Other times speeds seem greater or smaller, but the above seems to me to approximate a "best fit", pending a more thorough analysis that I'm not afraid to say I'm dreading.
Just an observation. Go on about your business.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The "warp streaks are stars" idea was buried in "First Contact" at the very latest: we see these "stars" streak by even though the Phoenix doesn't travel far enough to lose sight of Earth!
Warp speeds that are ten times faster than the Encyclopedia values would be sufficient for most storytelling needs. Perhaps the Encyclopedia figures only apply to brief warp hops, whereas the ride gets smoother if one maintains "thrust" for an hour or more?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I once pondered that the streaks could be something else... but we've seen too many times when a ship slows back to sub-light.... that the streaks become stars.
I'd have to say since I don't think they've ever spelled out that warp _ = ______ xc that the technical manuals are just wrong. Though it has been correct on a few occasions only when they deal with long journeys outside the Federation, it seems to be more often wrong.
I've been busy, but I've removed the real stars, changed the scale to 1000ly, and I'll make a zoom in map for real stars. I fear I do not have, nor have ever been able to get my hands on the new star charts book- but I've only really heard reasons people disagree with it. Any thoughts on it, and how it deals with this subject?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, most of the time they resolve into stars. Don't they occasionally go off in weird directions, presumably because of effects errors?
At any rate, considering that the streaks are apparently coming from stars but can't actually be the result of stellar motion, it seems reasonable to just chalk it up to a Weird Effect passing through a warp field has on light. (So how come other light sources, like ships traveling alongside, don't go all streaky? Well, putting aside the issues of point of view and dramatic necessity, we only see two ships at warp together when they're trying to do something to each other. Towing, shooting, beaming, and so on, and we know that this requires some sort of "synching up" of their respective warp fields. So the light from ship A isn't crossing a normal space/warped space barrier to get to ship B.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the number of streaks increases at faster warp speeds? It would explain why the streaks dont always resolve into stars- more warpage bends their light from farther positions outside the camera's POV.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I started in a Delta Quadrant map, and then got busy with other things, so I pondered I�d crank out a Gamma Quadrant map, seeing as we really know the least about it. Please comment on anything you think I should alter/relocate/add! I also added it to my Galaxy map. In DS9 Battle Lines the other side of the wormhole was placed 70,000ly away from Bajor, so the location is appropriate. I made the Dominion roughly 5000-6000ly, which makes it the full width of the Scutum Arm. I found that to be a good size, big, yet not overly huge and being the width of the arm gives it somewhat of a protective moat on two sides- space in that area would be more spread out with fewer star systems. Entire Galaxy: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/galaxy.jpg Local Area: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/mapnew.gif Dominion: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/gamma.gif Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Any thoughts on the Gamma Quadrant map above?
I'm now through with re-watching season 2 of Voyager, adding locations as I go, and I mapped ahead. There were some interesting things I noticed this time though; it was not until the second season episode four "Elogium" that Ensign Wildman spoke with Janeway and told her that she had became pregnant- that she and her husband (who was on DS9) had been trying to have a baby for months, their conversation reveals that she regretted the circumstances as the Delta Quadrant was not the best place to raise a child, and it was formed as an apology really, showing that it was naturally procreated before Voyager was lost, yet from the stardate given for the episode, it would have been seven months after Voyager was lost- this is a rather lengthy time to not be showing, and just find out. Naomi is born in "Deadlock" which is a hair over eight months later, so she did develop normally (as she was born a little early).
After re-watching VOY- 37�s, I�m kinda thinking that Henry Kim deserved to remain an Ensign� after they beamed the Ford truck to the cargo bay he asks: �Is this an early hover car?� I know it is the future and all, but certainly Harry understands the history of the wheel? And things with wheels tend to use them for locomotion? It�s like showing someone today a picture of an early sail ship- I don�t think many of us would be so clueless.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yes, Harry was an idiot, but that episode is one of Voyager's very worst so...
Really incredible work on those maps! Really, I saved 'em right alonside my own WIP versions of the Star Charts stuff (which I'm forever forgettting to go back into).
I might have placed Karrema a bit closer to Edran or Dosi though it's likely they have several systems with worlds in them- the Dominion might have absorbed many budding cultures with trading partners/colonies spread out.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/delta1.gif is the first three years of Voyager's route- though I've only watched the first two seasons again so more will be added.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I moved Karrema closer to the originally held border and up some. The Dominion map was pretty easy, as there was very little known, and since moving Karrema does not contradict with anything I'm aware of, I'm happy with you being happy. *L* I didn't move it too close to the Dosi though, it seemed a bit counter-productive to have the two species that trade for the Dominion right on top of one another.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I updated: http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/delta1.gif and now consider it complete- comments welcome... I'm now starting on a second map- as there was 9500ly of Borg space that Kess flung Voyager by, so the next map will be from that second starting point.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
It's Kes.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Drat... Perhaps I shouldn't have fast forwarded through the intro each time. I'll correct that later, thanks
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hehehe I was going to say that - after 2 seasons of intros...
The Intro to Voyager is still very beautiful. I remember when a friend came back to Australia a day or so after it aired in the States with a tape of Caretaker. It was awesome and we were probably one of the very few in Australia who saw it so EARLY! I remember we watched the intro a few times cause it was so awesome. Great music too. Of course I still love the DS9 opening too.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/TrekMap.html Kes has been corrected, and now all the maps have been image mapped off the galaxy image, and Voyager season 4 has been added. Comments, suggestions, ponderances?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What is Alastria?
I hazard that the Borg Collective and the Dominion are both WAY bigger.
"E'Dran" is actually spelt Idran - I'm pretty sure.
I'd but DS9 and the Wormhole closer to the Badlands/the DMZ (which I think extends a great deal along the Federation/Cardassian border) and further from Tzenkethi space. I don't think Bajoran space is THAT big either. I think they're a bit of a backwater.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Why would it be out on the rim - why not 40,000 light years closer to home - I think that is what drove Harry and ultimately Tuvok to try and use the technology to get home - why try and make it go out there?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I haven't seen the episode in ages, but according to the linked description that particular planet had nothing to do with getting closer to home, and everything to do with a pleasant setting for a date. So why should it be anywhere, in particular?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Pussy is where you can find it...
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Alastria- is a planet in a binary star system that the Sikarians used a spatial trajector to get to. It was stated that is was 40,000ly from Sikaris, and in the Delta Quadrant, given the location of Sikaris, that would place it in one of three place: In the core (not a happy place), or bottom right of Delta, or the upper left corner- So I picked bottom right. If it were 40,000ly closer to home, then it could not also be in the Delta Quadrant- and at no time did Harry know the exact location of Alastria, just it's distance from where he was, and it's a bit too coincidental to have it on Voyager's exact path home. Alastria was not just a good place to go on a date, Harry and everyone understood that the technology had the power to send something 40,000ly in any direction (including on the path home)
Borg- Voyager entered Borg space in Scorpion I and exited it in The Gift, after Kes threw the ship 9500ly through Borg space. That does set at least the one cross-section of Borg space at 9500ly. I thought this looked small as well, so I made it more vertical, gave it some extra territory spots so it ended up 20,000ly long. Perhaps I'll expand it further though. I think most people have in their mind that the Borg must have a lot of space- They are the Borg, but perhaps 10,000/20,000ly is hitting a limit for them- I ponder that if the Borg collective functions over a subspace link then it might also be a limiting factor: *We know Federation subspace communication signals have a range. *Borg tend to scoop up civilizations and take them back to the collective, rather than setting up camp everywhere. *When Hugh rejoined his ship and his memories were reintegrated, only the ship he was on went haywire and not the entire collective.
Perhaps it was by technological limitation that the collective�s link has a range, or perhaps it is by intentional design. A Borg vessel has so many drones that it could sustain collective control on its own; perhaps this is why most Borg ships are so large in the first place. Events such as Hugh�s reindividualization would work in taking out a ship, but it would not be spread to all the Borg. Voyager concluded with the total destruction of the Borg- as Janeway�s virus spread over the collective, but the same subspace link limitation could have worked to protect the Borg- They could have had thousands of cubes out assimilating civilizations around the galaxy, and if they were out of range of downloading the virus, those ships could then return to rebuild.
Thus perhaps the Borg are not as expansive as most of us ponder, but perhaps are even more difficult to kill off.
You are correct, it is Idran, I will change that.
The Badlands is already 500ly long, if it stretched all the way Tzenkethi territory it would be visible from Earth, and not just visible, but predominantly visible in the night sky. I did alter the Bajoran Sector some, squeezed it all up more so it no longer borders Tzenkethi Space. To call any area of the galaxy a backwater is a bit Terrancentric. The Bajora were a species of great architects, artists, builders and philosophers before Humans were standing upright. They were exploring space when humans were first starting to explore the �new world�. Bajorans stumbled just once in their history, where as humanity nearly destroyed itself several times over- they just had the luck of making contact with the Vulcans first, and not the Cardassians.
Updates coming soon.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK about Alastria.
Maybe the Borg has a fatter mid section? Or it's the whole 3d perspective that needs to be looked up which is just a can of worms. I think you are already doing nicely.
What I meant is move the wormhole and DS9 closer to the Badlands. It also took the Defiant a bit of time to get to the Tzenkethi border.
ALSO why would Bajor - an occupied planet get their ENTIRE former space back... also why do they have such a large region compared to some of the 'powers' - like the Tholians or the Gorn or even the Tzenkethi.
From what I sussed out watching DS9 there was Bajor and it's moons and planets - plus New Bajor I think that was in the Alpha Quadrant - maybe it was in the Gamma Quadrant. Anyway I would say that Bajor pretty much consists of it's own system. They don't even really have their own warp ships. I'd even have Cardassian space (pre dominion) sort of cutting off Bajor from the Federation to make it a little more remote.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Indeed, perhaps I could make Borg space a bit fatter lower down.
Bajor does have a lively system with lots of habitable space- but they also have long standing territorial claims throughout the sector. They were exploring space for thousands of years before the Humans, but for some reason they didn't quite have the same drive to expand. New Bajor was certainly in the Gamma Quadrant- the Bajorans started to colonize in the Gamma Quadrant after the discovery of the wormhole, and they were later slaughtered by the Jem'Hadar- the First Jem'Hadar that came to DS9 to inform the UFP that they were not allowed in the Gamma Quadrant gave Kira a Bajoran padd that displayed a list of colonies and ships that had been destroyed.
In TNG - Ensign Ro, the Enterprise visited a Bajoran world closer to UFP space which the Cardassians did not annex (as the CU still controlled Bajor at the time of the TNG ep) It was noted that Bajorans had settled "all over the quadrant" by Picard (Though I think that's kinda reaching for how far they settled)
There have been many mentions or episodes in DS9 that started with a couple officers headed back from some Bajoran system... Golana, Kovaria, Nehru, Free Haven, Prophets' Landing, Valo, Velos, and more... all cited as individual systems Bajorans were forced to relocate to, or moved to my choice.
Tholian territory is twice the area of the Bajoran's, and the Tholians are a xenophobic species that doesn't explore space. Gorn and Tzenkethi were threats to nearby worlds in the UFP, but I do not think either posed a significant threat to the entire UFP
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
And Bajorans certainly do have warp technology, just in TNG-Ensign Ro, Orton, the resistance leader that was accused of attacking the UFP, he as an individual/his group did not have warp capable ships.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
However, we don't know when the Bajorans got that tech. All their warpship designs also appear as part of the supposedly Cardassian convoy in "Rules of Engagement", and even in Bajoran service they wear typical Cardassian colors... Perhaps they are all Cardassian leftovers from the Occupation era?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Plus I don't think you can equate a Bajoran diaspora to a Bajoran, like, colonization effort.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Indeed, though that was the only time the Cardassians used those ships, I thought they were strictly Bajoran, as the Bajorans seem to have many of that class. They do have the strictly Bajoran Interceptor class and fighter, it seems the Bajorans have a knack for aquiring ships, as we've seen them use half a dozen species' vessel designs.
Psha... Though it was true the Bajorans were forced to other worlds just in the last 40 year period of the Cardassian occupation of Bajor, in the time since then they have colonized new worlds, and in the thousands of years before the occupation they also did the same.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I updated Idran in the Gamma Quadrant, altered the area around Bajor, and added to the second leg of Voyager's route. http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/TrekMap.html Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Doesn't someone make a point of mentioning that the Bajorans didn't have any particular interest in anything offworld prior to the occupation?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
That is at least the heavy implication. An interstellar trip mere 800 years before the show is considered mythical at best; areas of Bajoran landmass itself remain unexplored after civilization has flourished there for a hundred times longer than it has on Earth; class M moons in the system or even around Bajor itself remain uninhabited.
I'd say the pre-Occupation Bajorans were extreme homebodies, perhaps because the caste system was established after the need for a surface explorer caste had disappeared, but before the means for space exploration had become available. No explorer caste, no exploration. Not for a hundred thousand years. It would take at least an evil alien occupation to shake that sort of tradition.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Doesn't someone make a point of mentioning that the Bajorans didn't have any particular interest in anything offworld prior to the occupation?
*plexes* No, I don't feel that was ever stated, it certainly has been proven that Bajorans traveled to Cardassia and made contact with them first. Bajorans do love nature, thus they have not developed the entire planet, they do not wish it to be one giant city. From TNG - Ensign Ro Picard stated that the Bajorans were refugees without a homeworld, forced to resettle throughout the quadrant. I feel that could probably why some of the moons may have a lower population than normal.
But Bajorans do love nature- that was the why they would often travel to Golana, as it was very green and a great place for picnics.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, uh, OK? But it is as Timo says: ancient Bajorans were not particularly interested in exploration or colonization, or so several plot threads contend. And as you yourself say, the Bajorans who fled Bajor did so as refugees, not as part of some colonization strategy, and from what we saw on TV many of them were living rather hard lives. They weren't exactly founding brave new worlds.
(re first season DS9 episode "Progress": Bajor is so uninterested in colonization that they hadn't even gotten around to living on a class M moon in their own system until the Cardassians came, and as soon as the Cardassians leave they're willing to wreck the moon's ecosystem for power generation purposes. ((Although I'd guess they had at least visited long enough to bring along some Bajoran flora and fauna, since kicking out that old man and killing a bunch of plants that exist elsewhere is one thing, but destroying a totally unique biosphere is something else. Or at least it would bother me, and, you'd think, the Federation, who seemed to be doing most of the heavy lifting.)))
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I still think that Bajoran space can be smaller - just squash the stars/sytems closer together. I doubt Bajorans would travel tens of light years to have a picnic.
DS9 has to be closer to the Badlands to make it fit in with various aspects of the Marquis Arc...
Also it shouldn't be so close to Federation space. It was WAY closer to Cardassian space. Sisko and Jake travelled at roughly warp 1 for a few days to get to Cardassia in that ancient solar space ship.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
At the risk of overwhelming the thread with this digression, only one of those planets seems to have been definitely colonized prior to the occupation.
The larger issue, I think, is "Bajoran space" as a category. There's no reason to think the Bajoran government had anything to do with those refugee camps, for instance. So, I mean, you've got planets with Bajorans on them, and then you have a smaller number of planets that belong to "Bajor" the political entity, and I would say most if not all of those were either colonized after the occupation or were officially annexed after it.
The setting for DS9 (the show) just doesn't seem to include a Bajor that controls a sizable volume of space. Or anyway, such was my interpretation.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they dont "control" it, but just have colonies or settlements of mainly Bajorans in that area....it's not as though every part of the galaxy has to fall within the territory of a major power- hell, it makes a lot more sense that there are dozens of autonomus colonies, settlements and stations that engage in commerce with whomever they like and dont have any particular political status or protection.
What was that colony that the Husnok wiped out? They sure did not seem a branch of the Federation (as example only),just as Bajor likely had no political influence over New Bajor.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That was a Federation colony, though, explicitly as I recall, as in "in the Federation," and New Bajor was, likewise, explicitly a Bajoran colony.
Or, again, so I recall. New Bajor (as described in the above link) was their ill-fated attempt to get some Gamma Quadrant real estate. [Perhaps because all the easily colonizable nearby worlds on this side of the wormhole were long taken.]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmm...I think only the local real estate was long taken. Even stuff in the neighborhood of or in claimed space was often left unvisited for decades at a stretch- like that world ceeded to the Sheliak.
What about all those non-allinged worlds that sem so seedy, but still maintain some diplomatic ties?
Aside, I could see a group of colonies banding together for mutual defense against a major power{s) and their claims of territory -particularly on worlds they are not useing, but only claim as a "we claimed it first so you cant" advantage. It would have t be a close grouping of wor;ds though- mabye a stelar cluster or a trinary system... I get the feeling there was once a cold-war like colonization expansion wherein all the Powers staked a claim to certain territory but rarely developed (or occasionally abandoned) the claimed worlds....like all those untouched planets in the RMZ, or within the Fed itself (Diatalix B, etc.).
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
Also it shouldn't be so close to Federation space. It was WAY closer to Cardassian space. Sisko and Jake travelled at roughly warp 1 for a few days to get to Cardassia in that ancient solar space ship.
Had to be faster than Warp 1, since that's the speed of light. You're not getting anywhere in the galaxy in a few weeks going Warp 1.
Of course, that entire idea of Warp "rivers" was a bit too much for me.
Perhaps instead of clumped together, Bajoran "space" stretches up and down, or has other spindly "arms" emerging from Bajor toward these settled worlds.
And how many are/were in the Gamma Quadrant? Was the galactic location of all these other planets determined?
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Perhaps I will shrink Bajoran space further... and alter some locations- Perhaps my love of the Bajorans clouded me to some aspects, but I think I do have a lot to debate from.
Kasidy Yates was detained by Klingons in DS9 - Way of the Warrior while on a cargo run, resulting in a distress call to the DS9. The S.S. Xhosa had been at warp for an hour, and the space the Xhosa was in was still declared "Bajoran Space", leading one to think that Bajor has claim to at least some space between it and the colonies.
We have seen some of the governmental structure of Bajoran and the colonies. Bajorans have a pretty simple government, with the First Minister and a Council of Ministers.. the First Minister acts as the President, and the Council as a Congress. The leader of a colony carries the title of "Governor" Which does would imply that the colony serves as a political state within a greater Bajoran government. In DS9 - Heart of Stone Kira and Odo met with Governor Avesta who was leader of Prophets' Landing as it is their closest world to the Cardassian Union. They reviewed their security procedures and then declined the Governor's invitation to dinner.
Another factor for government unity is Bajoran religion, the Kai does not serve to create law, but he or she is a leader of the Bajoran people all the same. The Kai along with the Vedek Assembly mirror the First Minister and Council in form, but of course deal with different matters. There can only be one Kai, just as there can only be one First Minister. The colonies never "break away" and become autonomus this way. This could be why Humans have spread to build the Federation while the Bajorans have not gone nearly as far.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm, all we know is that Kasidy's ship left the station a hour before being stopped. I'd say she did so at impulse.
Runabouts basically never travel at warp while in the Bajoran system, and it takes AT LEAST two hours for them to get from Bajor to DS9; while the Defiant is willing and able to warp out from the level of the Denorios belt, Kasidy's freighter probably isn't.
Given Bajor's limited naval capabilities, I don't think they could have held claim to space beyond the orbit of Bajor XIV at the time of that episode.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
The Xhosa departed DS9 (not Bajor) which is located at the end of the Bajoran system, and we've commonly seen vessels of many types depart the station and go to warp.
The Bajorans alone do not have a strong military, they do not have a fleet of ships that can defend their claims- and though they are weak, they are very proven claims none-the-less. Not every species needs an all powerful fleet to protect a territorial claim- they just need a treaty with an all powerful fleet. That was done with the UFP, there was a minor treaty with the Cardassians, they allied with the Dominion, and finally resumed relations with the UFP.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
http://www.craigdannenberg.com/bajor/TrekMap.html Updated the first five Delta Quadrant locations Voyager visited, now all I have left is their last location before they came home.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
quote:The Xhosa departed DS9 (not Bajor) which is located at the end of the Bajoran system, and we've commonly seen vessels of many types depart the station and go to warp.
Actually, DS9 is located roughly in the middle of the system, in terms of planetary orbits (we even see the relevant Okudagram on screen a couple of times). Departing DS9 is not that much different from departing Earth: if you are in a hurry, you can warp out, but you can also choose to spend a lot of time at impulse, up to the orbit of Saturn at least ("BoBW" et al.).
And we've never really seen a freighter go to warp directly from the station. The only known civilian vessel to attempt this was the small one that got blown up in "Improbable Cause"...
So I still think the heavy implication and the writer intent here was that the Xhosa was still insystem and at sublight when the Klingons intercepted her.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'd also put Klaestron IV closer to DS9...
Odo got there quite quickly in "Dax" quicker than the time it took the Defiant to get to the Tzenkethi border - which you have in between. They are actually part of the Federation but have a number of ties with the Cardassians - so I'd put them right on the border.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'd also put the Argus array closer to Cardassian space. The Cardassians were using it covertly to spy on Federation facilities - even though it was a Federation installation. This occured across a number of parallel universes in "Parallels".
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Regarding Klaestron IV, there's no indication in the show itself that they would be part of the Federation.
Quite to the contrary, the episode "Dax" has them referring to "YOUR Federation". There's nothing "federal" about them: no legal ties to the UFP, no political or cultural sympathies whatsoever, and the only Fed known to have dealt with them at all was an Ambassador. Add to this their proximity to Bajor, even though UFP territory supposedly doesn't extend anywhere near Bajor.
The second mention of the place in "Second Skin" does nothing to add to the "fedness" of the folks - indeed, it seems the only way Federation medicine could learn about their new burn treatment techniques was to go and have a look, there being no common medical correspondence.
The Encyclopedia entry is simply completely in error about this (perhaps based on some early version of the "Dax" script, or then just the result of sheer confusion). The Star Charts unfortunately repeat the error. I deliberately didn't paint the place blue in the original; Geoff went and changed it without checking...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, there is at least one legal tie. They have an extradition treaty with the Federation (but not with Bajor, and therein lies the plot), which is yet another pointer towards them not being in the UFP. I mean, the whole show is designed around a foreign entity coming to get Dax and then there is a legal battle over it. An internal matter ought to have had a whole different, you know, storytelling dynamic.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The Encyclopedia entry is simply completely in error about this (perhaps based on some early version of the "Dax" script, or then just the result of sheer confusion). The Star Charts unfortunately repeat the error. I deliberately didn't paint the place blue in the original; Geoff went and changed it without checking...
Timo Saloniemi
Ahhh thanks Timo - I guess I'm just going by that encyclopaedia entry.
Well it still stands that it must be closer to Bajor than Tzenkethi space since it didn't really take Odo that long to get there and check things out.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Any thoughts on the Delta Quadrant locations? After I'm through with going through Voyager I'm going to look up each world around Bajor, and then try to make a map that reflects how things changed over time.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Bajoran_system I found this to be a most lacking page. "Bajor System" instead of "Bajoran System" and they're going to change it to the "B'hava'el System" later, because the star was mentioned with that name in a book? And it's only 50ly from Earth? That's crazy talk.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Shakaar: Myu memory of all the folks Voyager encountered is fuzzy, being years since I last saw the show (IE, when it ended!). How did Voyager ever meet anyone from Lyridia or especially Alastria way out there? The rest are pretty much along V's path home.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Alastria only Harry Kim visited via the Sikarian trajector in the first season- It was said that their worlds were 40,000 ly distant, but both were in the Delta Quadrant.
Lyridia no one actually visited, it was among the species the Think Tank helped. Their placement was random, though the Think Tank had a great range as they were at Voyager's location at the end of season 5, and also recently cured the Vidiian phage. The Lyridians had the most detailed map of the galaxy.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Oh and all as a hologram. Is that asking too much? ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
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