Originality?! He forced an Akira and a Sovereign to mate, then made the poor bastard wear a funny hat.
Ick.
And what's with that long shuttle runway? That space could be inside the hanger and useful rather than outside and pointless.
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
It's "different". Looks like a akira/sov. bash. Starboard view, is "interesting", looks like a flat saucer.
The rest of the views look promising.
The rollbar.......... eh.
Design looks promising, I think there should be some changes.
.......and that's my two and a half cents.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I like it. Not tops on any list (need to see it in 3D, which I'm sure someone will tackle before long), but the lines and the silhouettes look fine. If anything, it resembles Sternbach's "Mount Olympus" designs for Voyager, with a larger Sovereign slant to them. Not what I'd have come up with, but I can see this as the Titan. Makes me shudder to think what Pocket must have recieved from some of the hopefuls, though. I guess we'll see some of the runners-up next week.
But I still don't think that Riker would have accepted anything less than a Galaxy-class (freakin' SHELBY has one, for crying out loud), but that's not the designer's fault. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It all boils down to the pylons; will they look like majestic, backswept eagle wings or a pair of training wheels?
I would've liked them better thinning out towards the nacelles instead of towards the hull. They look breakable like a lobster's leg imo.
Also, putting the pod further behind and on a back-slanted stalk, like a short scorpion's tail.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Ugh....It reminds me of the old G.I. Combat comic when Jeb and the crew create the canibalized tank. I get the same impression from this.
Either that or it was designed by GM for each subsidiary to have its own mark.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
It's an okay design but certainly not one I would consider for the cover.
Of all Titan designs I've seen this is probabaly my favorite Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
OK - but what the hell is this thing for? I mean a new ship class would (in theory) need to bring something the old classes don't. I don't see it in this design.
Not that I'm really sure what "it" would be.
Can we see some of the Flare originated entries now?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
That ship sure got a preeetty 'dish. Like a prize sow.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My design would have had variable-profile nacelles - a nacelle that doesn't change position as on Voyager, but actual SHAPE, expanding the cowling mostly lengthwise as the nacelle coils inside change their positions into a more efficient high warp configuration Ahh, that would have been great.
And does Titan LOOK like a long-range, deep space explorer? Maybe, maybe not. But then again, what SHOULD a long-range, deep space explorer look like? Constellations and Galaxies are conjectured to be both, and they look completely different.
Mark
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I don't like it, BUT, it kinda makes me think of something that a decadent society would make, as it starts to faid into obscurity...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
So all that, and they pick a fucking Nebularised Sovereign? Jesus.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Aban is funny and correct. I wouldn't grade this one too high on 'originality'.
That 'roll-bar' is more like one of those midget backpacks girls wear at the mall. I've seen shelves in college dormitories that made more structural sense. The only angles where that's not going to look silly are from directly fore and aft. Also it seems to have the start of the Akira catamarans, but then those stop before they ever get past the edge of the saucer, which sort of defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. If you tore those off, and the backpack, you might have something. Something very close to a monohulled Akira.
I'd be very curious to see the Flare contributions/concepts...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
My dream ship would be the Prometheus with the four nacelles closing together on each side like a Negh'Var or X-Wing, when it's not in Warp and needs to minimize its frontal silhouette.
But to tell you the truth, I'm worried about Mark's proposed Viagra-nacelles.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
I gotta ask:
Why the hell did nobody here enter this contest?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Time and energy. Plus, few people here bothered to buy the book, which IMO was a bare 2.5/5 for me. Worth reading, but didn't hook me to the series. I have little inclination to continue reading the series, even if I had entered.
Yes, I'd been calling them VP nacelles for Variable Profile. But as we all know, they also mean Viagra Powered. At least the collapsed configuration doesn't hang limply from the sides of the ship at a 90-degree angle, and isn't particularly sensitive to phaser cutting beams from the USS Bobitt...
But my rationalization was to give the ship a minor gimmick that would demonstrate the "deep space" in Titan's mission. Lots of people wanted four nacelles, but the writers said no.
Mark
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I was going to design one. I even went out & bought the book, thinking that the story would give away some hints as to some design attributes. Unfortunately, the only thing the book had were those totally useless "rules" at the end. And then life got in the way, and lo and behold, I ran out of time.
However, if I knew that some totally unoriginal kitbash that zero thought went into was going to win, I'd have taken five minutes of my time to draw up a design and submit it, 'cause something I thought up in five minutes would have been better than this.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That's what it was, wasn't it! It's a complete and utter kit-bash - we'd moved beyond them say in 1999.
I wonder if RW had a go at a design? Oh doesn't live in the US - that's right.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Because ships designed to look like they were built around the same time as other ships always look different...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I find it positive that the rules at least dictated a ship smaller and somewhat less capable than Sovereign. However, I'd have expected the "balance" of the Luna to be different as a result. This ship is fairly vanilla, without outstanding features.
OTOH, I think it's a good idea that this ship would look like a Sovereign kitbash. The Luna is likely to be something dreamed up simultaneously with Sovereign, only delayed a decade because of the war. Truly modern, postwar elements on her would be few.
A downside IMHO is the "unfinished" geometry of the primary hull, making this ship look somewhat amateurish. More graceful curves, more strictly adhering to some obvious mathematical formula, would remove the low-poly computer game ship feel.
I agree with Mark that the ship would have needed some gimmick in order to be interesting. The dorsal module ain't cutting it. In fact, having a swappable-looking module on a ship that is supposed to spend long times away from port is quite illogical!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: It's an okay design but certainly not one I would consider for the cover.
Of all Titan designs I've seen this is probabaly my favorite
A small, fat, badly drawn Galaxy class?
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
The website says that the design was judged on:
" ...categories of originality, execution, consistency with the U.S.S. Titan Concept Notes, and consistency with Star Trek's established Starfleet style. "
Now I can see why he scored high on the last one - it's just bits robbed off of other starships, but I'm not so convinced he's managed to pull it off in other areas. I just dont like it.
On the otherhand, maybe we should just admit that we were secretly wishing for some uber fanboy, planet crunching, deathray weilding, mother of a ship with a few more flashing lights, and what we got is a bit limp (like those nacelles?).
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I think this is the Titan design I've liked the best; too bad he blew the deadline. Of course, it doesn't look like anything currently in Starfleet and, therefore, probably would have lost.
Well, the Sovereign is a shit design to begin with, so it's not hard to see this fits the Starfleet style
Kidding aside, though, this design is not very exciting. It's not that bad, but not very good either. Typically the kind of design you sort of gloss over on Starshipschematics.net and don't pay much attention to.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: I think this is the Titan design I've liked the best; too bad he blew the deadline. Of course, it doesn't look like anything currently in Starfleet and, therefore, probably would have lost.
Oh wow . . . that's exactly what I'd have expected a 25th Century ship to look like, just going from TNG.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Ginger Beacon: On the otherhand, maybe we should just admit that we were secretly wishing for some uber fanboy, planet crunching, deathray weilding, mother of a ship with a few more flashing lights, and what we got is a bit limp (like those nacelles?).
Nah, just wanted something original.
Posted by omi (Member # 1695) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: I think this is the Titan design I've liked the best; too bad he blew the deadline. Of course, it doesn't look like anything currently in Starfleet and, therefore, probably would have lost.
This design is great, quite simple and stylish. No hard shapes. I like it very much.
To answer the question why anyone from here didn't attend the competition. To answer for myself: Because the competition was only for American residents. I know the law and everything around is problematic, but some fans from all around the rest of the world should had some good ideas... Well have you already seen this Finn fanfilm?? It's really well done, and funny. There is version with english subtitles in the download section.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I ran out of time with my design as well. Personally, I would have liked to have seen a neck on the Titan. I just don't like the direction most designs have gone with the no-neck squashed look. The winner does look very derivative, and overall it just doesn't flow, unlike the Galaxy class.
Yeah! Something like that unfinished concept in Herb's post. Or that one Alan did a while back. Not some half-assed Galaxy-clone, and most certainly not a cut'n'paste job that's no better than one that someone as artistically-retarded as me could do in 1998.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
(incidentally, does anyone have recent news of RW? I've just been looking at what few of his designs are up at starshipschematics, I always liked his style)
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Yeah! Something like that unfinished concept in Herb's post.
You mean this one? That's from a video game. Armada 2 I believe.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yeah, the Weber.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yes, the Aegian (misspelled) Class is from Star Trek: Armada II. Not big enough to the Luna Class. But I like the design.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not too far from the Titan's design specs of 350 meters long either.
Fuck this Titan is a baaad kitbash- looks like something from Starshipschematics.net in fact.
Worst of all, if placed next to an Akira, it just looks mis-scaled instead of a seperate design.
This was my idea...one which I'll probably get off my ass and finally finish building now that it's too late by far.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Conspiracy time! I forward the notion that the contest guys had something decided upon - in general - for the winning design. That being, analogous to the Sovereign, but visually different to differentiate them on screen. The Reliant to the Enterprise, for the new series.
And so they got it.
Don't get me wrong, I like the winning design overall. I just think that it was the design that best matched what the Pocket guys already had in mind.
Mark
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
I'm sure that is it to an extent. Also the fact that the Sovvie and the Akira are the two favorite fanboy ships, as it were, makes a cross between the two all the more appealing if you're trying to sell books.
OK - when does the competition forum here on Flare become public domain? WE DEMAND TO KNOW YOUR SECRETS
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Secrets? The whole thing fizzled, that's the secret.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NO way- I posted extensive schematics of revolutionary designs that shocked and amazed all. that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Then it's just as well your honesty is accepted without question, and you are widely held to be the paragon of truthfulness.
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Does anybody of a copy or link to the design rules that the submissions were supposed to follow?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The Ship:
U.S.S. Titan, NCC-80102, Luna-class. The Titan is a midsize Starfleet vessel, approximately 450 meters in length (larger than the U.S.S. Voyager, smaller than the Enterprise-D), with a crew complement of 350. Titan's hull configuration is comparable to other established Starfleet vessels.
U.S.S. Voyager, approximately 344 meters
[Additional: USS Akira - 464 meters]
[Additional: USS Excelsior - 467 meters]
U.S.S. Enterprise-D, Approximately 642 meters
The Luna-class is Starfleet's newest-generation long-range explorer, a starship not built specifically for combat, but like the Constitution-class of the previous century, a vessel designed for a long-term multipurpose mission into uncharted space. Equipped with conventional tactical systems (deflector shields; phasers; quantum torpedoes), Titan also boasts state-of-the-art propulsion and cutting-edge scientific equipment, as well as being a testbed for experimental science tech not yet available on other classes.
The Titan is manned by the most varied multispecies crew in Starfleet history, with humans taking up less than 15% of the 350-member crew. The diversity of the crew is intended to facilitate stories that will explore the ways that beings of different cultures, biologies, psychologies, and physical appearances learn how to work together, or fail to, depending on the circumstances they encounter. Titan has eight shuttlecraft of various sizes.
The story behind the Luna-class:
The Luna-Class Development Project was initiated in 2369 in response to the discovery of the Bajoran wormhole, and originally conceived as leading a planned Starfleet wave of deep-space exploration in the Gamma Quadrant. The project was spearheaded by Dr. (Commander) Xin Ra-Havreii, a Starfleet theoretical engineer at Utopia Planitia. Field testing on the prototype U.S.S. Luna was under way by 2372 in the Alpha Quadrant, and construction of the fleet was scheduled to begin the following year. Unfortunately, contact with the Dominion and the subsequent outbreak of hostilities mothballed the project indefinitely, as Starfleet redirected its shipbuilding resources to the production of vessels better suited to combat.
Upon the war's end in late 2375, Dr. Ra-Havreii correctly judged that the Federation's cultural psychology would eventually shift back toward its pre-war ideals, and pushed to have the Luna-class revisited as a major step toward resuming Starfleet's mission of peaceful exploration (even though the class would no longer be assigned exclusively to the exploration of the Gamma Quadrant). Construction of an initial fleet of twelve Luna-class vessels was completed by 2379, and the Titan was offered to William T. Riker, one of many command officers eager to put the strife of the last decade behind him.
The Luna-class fleet:
The ships of the Luna-class are all named for moons in Earth's solar system:
Amalthea Callisto Charon Europa Galatea Ganymede Io Luna Oberon Rhea Titan Triton
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Then it's just as well your honesty is accepted without question, and you are widely held to be the paragon of truthfulness.
I'm adding you to my resume references. I'll just make up a suitable last name for you as no one ever checks references anyway. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Wait - what length is used for the Akira in this comparison? It's not 464m?
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Either the Titan has oversized lifeboats or that Akira is waaay too small.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Isn't that the same comparison image as posted on the SCN? Anyway, this is not to scale, it just allows to compare the design features.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm... oddly, the Titan design didn't invoke quite the same gag reflex it did the first time I saw it. Maybe that means it's growing on me. I still dislike it though.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
ACK!!! They've posted some of the runner-up entries! They're starting to make the winner look a whole lot better.
B.J.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Some of those runner-up entries are certainly inspired. In particular, I'm curious what all the orbs built into the hull on this entry would have been for. Observation domes? Energy swirl thingies?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Inspired by some of Reverend Jim's brownies.
They all..... "PULL VACUUM"
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I like the Ridings design the best, in the broad strokes, though he does take a few liberties away from established TNG design. But it's not just a Nebularized Sovereign, which is doubtless what the contest people had in mind from the beginning.
The Dukes design is just wierd. Without saying what those nodes were, it doesn't carry much weight to the concept. Sensors, perhaps? Titan was supposed to have some uber powerful sensor nets.
And the Brown design, while closest perhaps to established dogma, is just clunky IMO. Trying to TNGize a Connie has never really worked. Plus, the guy who designed it has reportedly been a rather sore loser, since the winner was announced.
I must admit though that I'm disappointed this is all that Trek fandom could come up with... Some of the unsubmitted designs have been very impressive. If only the time existed for some of those to make it! And I also shudder to think what painfully bad designs, or even joke designs, had been submitted...
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Observation domes? Energy swirl thingies?
"INtarm1x Crisstalz 4 teh ship"s 5 M//AM engines!!1!"
Were these, like, the only 4 entries they got? I can't believe that noone came up with anything better than this. The Riddings one is kind of cool, but totally wrong era. I see it also incorporates Batmobile Shield Technology from the future.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Agreed. Had the Ridings design been done with Tourangeuau's styling and detail (which is clearly the best of the lot IMO), and ditched all the fanwank tech, it would have fared much better.
Given these four designs, I'd have chosen the winner as well. I'm just curious as to what other qualifying designs looked like.
Mark
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
The Brown design isn't too bad. The biggest thing I would change would be the primary hull. I'd definitely try to smooth out and integrate that nose and superstructure on it a bit more. I don't think the secondary hull is bad at all; it's just that big, honkin' nose.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Some of those runner-up entries are certainly inspired. In particular, I'm curious what all the orbs built into the hull on this entry would have been for. Observation domes? Energy swirl thingies?
The designer said: "the blue "bubbles" (for lack of a better term) are potential science labs/stations and/or sections with new scientific equipment to be used in the Titan's deep space exploration missions."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I don't think the secondary hull is bad at all..."
I liked it as soon as I first saw it. On the Excelsior.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh snap!
The Brown seems to be an attempt (or at least makes me think of an attempt) to give the Defiant a secondary hull.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
There's only one actual real likely explanation for these four piles of steaming buffalo shit. The whole thing was a complete publicity stunt, they never had any intention of using a real person's design. They came up with the Akirasov concept themselves, and when stuck with having to come up with some "runners-up" they just threw together whatever came into their head.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My pet conspriacy is that they always wanted something to be the Miranda to this day's Constitution, or Nebula to the Galaxy. They simply picked the closest one. IMO, even the highest skilled entries wouldn't have been chosen if they had the traditional arrangement of any Enterprise.
Mark
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: There's only one actual real likely explanation for these four piles of steaming buffalo shit. The whole thing was a complete publicity stunt, they never had any intention of using a real person's design. They came up with the Akirasov concept themselves, and when stuck with having to come up with some "runners-up" they just threw together whatever came into their head.
And then sent four people out to pretend to be those people?
I just don't think they gave people enough time. And I'm thankful I never finished a design if this is the kind of treatment it would get.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Nevermind, I guess, but conspiracy theories? Over the cover of a Star Trek novel?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Boh: well, I guess it would depend on whether your design sucked or not, wouldn't it? And, why would they have to get four people to pretend? Do you know any of these four? Does anyone?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I am down on Star Trek novels, is maybe my thing. And you kids, get off my lawn!
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Boh: well, I guess it would depend on whether your design sucked or not, wouldn't it? And, why would they have to get four people to pretend? Do you know any of these four? Does anyone?
The winner posts on both SciFi-Meshes and TrekBBS and the designer of the ship with the blue orbs posts on TrekBBS. The blue orb ship was seen there before the runner up designs were posted.
And considdering my skills with ship design, it would likely not have made it to the runner up stage. I guess my stuff is worse than "steaming buffalo shit" Thanks for enlightening me.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh. Oh! You're one of those. I'm sorry, I didn't realise we had any of you left around here. Gosh, this does take me back. Why, it's been years since we had anyone who took themselves - and Star Trek - far, far too seriously and whose every response was couched in this rather, stiff formal style, as if treating such a hallowed subject with my typical irreverence was somehow blasphemous. Quoting my entire previous post with every reply semed to a common trait - I'm curious, why do your kind always do that?
But, hey! Never let it be said I was discriminatory. I take great pride in making my insults as personal as possible, I view myself as a skilled craftsman whose every slight is individually tailored to the target's specifications. So. . . Let's see now. Hmm: registered 18 months ago, 600-odd posts, say 30 a month - very good.
Now: PULL YOUR FUCKING HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS! Item: these winning/running-up designs are shite. Your stated position on other people's opinions was:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: And I'm thankful I never finished a design if this is the kind of treatment it would get.
. . . to which my pretty-fair-all-things-considered response was, paraphrased, not if they were any good. Note no reference was made to the quality of your own ship designs, or any assessment of your overall skill in design/presentation. So, no - I'm not saying your work is worse than theirs (to be honest, I don't see how anything could be worse than theirs! We're a pretty loyal bunch here, anything creative that gets submitted for our assessment receives feedback that's, overall, positive in nature). Why not submit what you got and let us judge for ourselves? To whit: put up or shut up, old fruit. 8)
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
Of course there is a pretty broad range of what "positive in nature" entails.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'd take it to include "negative but helpful criticism, couched in an encouraging way."
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I'd take it to include "negative but helpful criticism, couched in an encouraging way."
uh, who REALLY cares? they (TPTB) still lose if you don't BUY the books... Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Still shopping around for the best method of emphasizing text?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
NIXED! Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I think I've over reacted here and I'd like to say I'm sorry.
I moderate in a forum where the designer of the Titan is a member and as such its my job to make sure people are civil to each other there. I guess I took the remarks here a bit too seriously after a day of bashing people on the head elsewhere over the same topic.
This isn't really worth this level of confrotation to me and I'd like to forget that this arguement ever happened.
If I've come across as "One of those" I am truely sorry. I certanly don't think Star Trek is the be all and end all, I'm just more used to a more diplomatic style of criticism when it comes to artwork and I don't see the need to be insulting. I suppose I'm a sensitive person and I don't see why people these days seem to go out of their way to be hurtful.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Because the perpetrator of that. . . thing. . . isn't one of us. Let's sacrifice him to our Go-o-od! If that had been your design, and it won, we'd have been much nicer. And proud of you. And a little envious. 8)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh:
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Some of those runner-up entries are certainly inspired. In particular, I'm curious what all the orbs built into the hull on this entry would have been for. Observation domes? Energy swirl thingies?
The designer said: "the blue "bubbles" (for lack of a better term) are potential science labs/stations and/or sections with new scientific equipment to be used in the Titan's deep space exploration missions."
Possibly the single worst design I've ever run across online- that's saying quite a lot, really.
If those "bubbles" were science labs, they'd be several decks high....though not half as high as the judges that thought this was a contender.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh:
I moderate in a forum where the designer of the Titan is a member and as such its my job to make sure people are civil to each other there
Ask him exactly how his entry qualifies as "original" in terms of the contest....that should be amusing.
I think TPTB had a definite look in mind (akira) and then just selected designs from the flock either to show diversity in concepts or to give select loyal online fans a pat on the ass.
In no way do I think there were not dozens- possibly hundreds of better entries than the "runners up". They probably had a tough time finding designs that were not completely awful and not obviously better than the winning design either.
Almost everything in JOAT is better than those (in concept if not always execution).
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The contest gave just as many points for originality as for a design that fit in with the current starfleet ships. I don't get what the big deal is that the ship looks simmilar to other ships.
A) It was in the rules and B) Not unlikely given the way we've seen Starfleet do things
If they had such a preconception about what they wanted, why hold a contest at all? Is it so hard to accept that a ship designed in people's spare time in a few months doesn't look like the work of a team of professionals?
It also doesn't ring true that the people judgeing this would pick this design over ones that were better, especially based on the kind of response its getting. These people aren't stupid, they wouldn't do something that would enrage the fanbase that they want money from.
Had you thought that maybe the people out on the internet who are so much "better" didn't want their work to become the property of Paramount? Or that they weren't elegible? Or that they didn't like working in the confines they were given?
I myself don't see what everyone hates so much about this ship.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I thought it might interest people to see some of his pre-design work:
I'm not saying he lacks talent- his execution is very good, the design is not original at all though. Really, it's a kitbash: a nice one, but still a re-arrangment of parts- and it's the exact same thing EVERYONE complained about with the NX-01, so why go with another obviously Akira-inspired ship?
As to "why have a contest at all?", that's obvious- publicity. I doubt the last season of Enterprise generated as much online speculation as this contest, and i'm certain it boosted their book sales (and the story itself sure was nothing special- I'm not bothering to buy the second part).
A lot of guys on Subspace Comms (for example only) could have done far better, but might not have submitted- not because "they did not want paramount to have their work" -thats's silly- but rather apathy (as with us Flarites) thinned the entries a lot.
Not that it in any way explains that horrid ship with the blue sphere things all through it- no way could that be in the top five- even if there were only five entries! Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I saw a few people say that they wouldn't submit because they didn't want to give up ownership of their work.
Anyway, the term kitbash doesn't really seem acurite here to me. Derivative perhaps, but no one part is exactly the same as anything we've seen before, and the placement of little details is different (and to scale) while I see a kitbash as using parts directly from something else in many cases with no corrections made for scale.
But again, this may be because of the other sites I visit. On Scifi-Meshes kitbash is almost a dirty word because of the kinds of poor workmanship that people usually display when kitbashing 3dmodels, usually without premission from the original author and without crediting them. So I might see the term "kitbash" differently than others and react more harshly.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...it's the exact same thing EVERYONE complained about with the NX-01, so why go with another obviously Akira-inspired ship?"
Except, it doesn't seem to be Akira-inspired. It's more Miranda/Nebula-inspired.
[ November 06, 2005, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
There's a difference between having an Akira-inspired vessel built at around the same time as the Akira, and having an Akira-inspired vessel built hundreds of years before the Akira existed.
Having said that, I don't like the winning Titan. Nevermind the kitbashyness, I just find the lines ugly. The pod looks out of place, the nacelles give it an odd "personality" and I don't know what the wobbly front edge of the saucer is about, but it looks like the engineers sneezed while putting her together.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Er...according to the novel, the Luna class is supposed to be a "completely new approach" and is an explorer. Sure does not sound like an Akira to me.
It's odd- if someone had submitted a fresh new design and then Alex Jager had used it as much as the winner used the Akira as a starting point, there'd be no end of uproar over the lack of orignlty.
I just expected something more and this sure is not it (though it's so laughably better than the others it's sad).
They shoould have just tweaked one of Eaves' Soverign concepts and called it a day.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I could like this a the Titan- a lot.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Reminds me of the old Menagha/Maguellanes/S'Harien from fandom...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Ahh, the Chariot-class from scifi-meshes.com! Beautiful, if Trekkishly implausible in the design lineage sense (that's a lot of lift-hopping to get from place to place). Still, I'm a big fan of "bridge-forward" design, and the load-balancing impulse engines. Assuming a plausible explanation could be found for the disproportionately tall secondary hull, I'd accept it as a nice experimental explorer starship design.
Mark
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
That is a really big departure. Homeworld Mothership/Sovereign transporter accident. With maybe some Slave-1. I don't think I like it. It's original, but it's maybe too weird. Damn, well executed, though.
I think maybe some of us here were intimidated by the prospect having seen some great fan trek designs. And so were upset when the choice went to something that looked to be no better than some top/front/starboard kitbashes we've seen. (and when I say kitbash, I mean taking parts we've already seen and re-arranging them to make a new ship: in this case, a Sovereign saucer with the beginnings of Akira catamarans going into a swoopy secondary hull with a Miranda and then a Nebula pod mounted on a Miranda rollbar.) I really think I'd like the design without the "backpack" thing. It still wouldn't be all that 'original', but I think I'd like it. But since I didn't submit anything (kitbash or otherwise), maybe I should STFU.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It's like the bastard child of a Sovereign and a B-wing...
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Or that they didn't like working in the confines they were given?
I'd have to agree with this statement. I didn't like the whole idea that the Titan would be a "small" ship, when it's supposed to be exploring deep space. I personally envsioned a Sovereign-sized ship in a Constellation-class configuration, since the Stargazer-type ships looked so perfect for a deep-space exploration design.
quote:I myself don't see what everyone hates so much about this ship.
It's very simple, really. There are essentially three reasons why people don't like the design:
1. We just had four years of a Star Trek series where the main ship was a ripoff of the Akira class. The winning design, is, yet again, if not a "ripoff" of the Akira, then strongly based on it, especially in the front-view. Anyone who cannot see this needs to get their eyes checked.
2. Most people were under the impression that Pocket Books and the judges wanted something new, original, and that didn't look like anything we've previously seen, design-attribute-wise. Instead, the winning design was a kitbash of parts from already-established designs, or parts that were "slightly" altered, but not enough IMO to warrant it being different.
3. As mentioned above, what little hints Pocket Books gave for the design attributes (i.e. a small ship) didn't really gell with the ship's supposed mission.
(I am not knocking the winning design. No, I'm not really thrilled with it, but I'm happy for the winner and glad he was able to get the chance to have his work in print. But people tried to justify the design of the NX-01 four years ago as well, and that didn't work all that well either.)
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Now here's a nice radical departure.
I could like this a the Titan- a lot.
why didnt you submit THAT design for Titan, Jason? its very impressive and would look great in any SFC game...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's not mine for starters- here's some links to the artist's other work on this class.
None of my current comissions looks like an explorer (and only one is the right length)- my stuff is all Dominion War right now and making masters for reproduction as model kits (like the Ageian class).
Still, I slacked biiigtime and should have entered something. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: [QB] Ahh, the Chariot-class from scifi-meshes.com! Beautiful, if Trekkishly implausible in the design lineage sense (that's a lot of lift-hopping to get from place to place). Hmm...I'd have to add something to the ventral protrusion to draw the eye downward (mabye some glowy sensor array), but I think the design is as plausable as any of the Romulan ships we've seen: as the Titan's crew is suppoosedly so diverse, why not make vertical corridors with zero-G to allow fast emergency travel?
The entire lower third of the ship might be dedicated to labs and "sensor nets" on a deep space explorer like the Titan is supposed to be.
Really, each series (and the books are no exception) need to establish a unique look if they are going to draw fans and this "Chariot" design would do that nicely.
It's growing on me....mabye I'll build a model of it. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I really like it too! I'm picturing a hospital ship for some reason. Probably because the Olympic/Pasteur/Hope is a 'deep' ship too.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
From the same guy - this ship really caught my eye - and it's Titan Class! Done in 2004 - before the competition - or was it?
I mean, how practical is it to get to the engineering hull? Are we really supposed to believe there are turbolifts running through the nacelle support pylons?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
stairs?
I believe that someone worked out that a turbolift could go down those pylons.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
But why would you want to design a ship like that?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I guess it depends on the ship's original mission and nature. Warp field dynamics?
If you complain about accessing the lower decks on the Oberth - you have to complain about accessing half of the ship on the Steamrunner!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Meh. At least the Steamrunner is large enough for turbolifts or catwalk-like walkways to the aft pod, along one side of the nacelles. You can had diagonal tubes or stairwells from there. They doubtless have special shielding for those areas, as they must have on the Saber class as well. Oberth too, probably.
And on that note, yes, someone figured that at most accepted scales for the Oberth, a standard turbolift could fit down the pylons with room to spare. Impractical, yes - but not impossible.
Mark
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Before TNG's "Hero Worship" and before all the discussions on the Net, I dismissed the idea of actual decks in the Oberth class engineering section. I couldn't see a T/E shaft going along the pylons. I imagined the lower section was one large sensor suite or other devices.
Maybe they use transporters to get there?
The same goes for the Steamrunner class. I never thought the lower slung lsection of the ship as being crew accessable. I concluded it was all deflector or sesnor or other equipment not needing constant access.
To carry the impractical discussion further, what about the Catamaran hull of the Akiria? The ship looks sweet, but imagine being in the back end of the port hull and having to book it over to the starboard end. Talk about a trip.
Something I've wondered about the Akira is where is the warp core? In the saucer? If that's the case, then the plasma distribution conduits would have to go a very long way to reach the nacelles.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Akira's warpcore is in the center saucer on most models I've seen (though the official CGI is not so detailed). NOthing wrong with that- the two computer cores could be in the catamaran hulls- leaving plenty of room for a large (if not through-deck) hangar bay and engineering section in the saucer.
On an Akira, you could always take a quick turbolift from one ctamaran to the other by cutting across the torpedo pod- there must be a couple of turboshafts there for it to work.
I always figured that for stuff like the Oberth's sensor pod or the Miranda's torpedo launcher there must be a safe beaming method that does not count as "intraship beaming". Mabye they transmit the matter stream along special conduits- lind of like an airport speedway but without physical bodies moving along the paths.
I dont see any pressing need to hang out behinfd the deflector on the Steamrunner: I'm sure jeffries tubes and turbolifts lead down there for repairs and such but staffing would be minimal if at all (OTOH, there were people assigned the shit job of manning the interior nacelles on the Galaxy class so you never know...).
I think all of the linked designs look good and plausable (if in need of some cosmetic tweaking on the last one to look more "starfleet".
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Wow, I really like these two you posted http://jason9704.fotopic.net/p6445847.html Reminds me of the ventral weight on a sailboat- I almost feel like it should be carrier further with a more vertical ship- perhaps that would look too unFederation. It does trouble me that the nacelles are to either side of the secondary hull- Warp drive is supposed to function by warping space between the two nacelles to push the ship forward- which is why the nacelles are usually out on pylons and extended up over the ship. Perhaps if it looked more like a quad-nacelle- but with the two somewhat built together I'd like it more... Still very cool. http://jason9704.fotopic.net/p4268821.html I really like it- though it does remind me of the Steamrunner class with a lot of the saucer cut away. I would not see this as an explorer, but as a combat vessel. It's like the Steamrunner, only there was a war going on.. and the team at the shipyards pondered how they could make it faster and do so using less material.
I've seen a number of places that "It was the Titan- and it should be bigger, not smaller". Those were the rules though, and they do have a logic. It is not after all the "Titan Class"- it is the "Luna Class" And lunar bodies tend to be the smallest. I often stuck to similar naming schemes for my ships as was started with the Danube Class (all then are named after rivers) The Luna Class are all named after moons- (Just Terran moons- and though I'd like the UFP to be a little less Terrancentric.... ) but as they are named after Terran moons, the design need only apply to the class, because it cannot apply to all the vessels individually- it'd be odd to have a huge USS Amalthea- the smallest moon of Jupiter, named after the nymph brought milk to Jupiter when he was an infant.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shakaar: It does trouble me that the nacelles are to either side of the secondary hull- Warp drive is supposed to function by warping space between the two nacelles to push the ship forward- which is why the nacelles are usually out on pylons and extended up over the ship.
What about the Defiant-class? Or the Intrepid-class?
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Intrepid class raises them up when it goes to warp so the rear of the nacelle clears the top of the shuttlebay. The Defiant is something different... I ponder that this principal of warp, has been forgotten since it was created- course it did give it its name... With the Defiant I like to think it was actually a quad nacelle in disguise- that to get around the warping between the nacelles, they created it so that there were dual components in one side, and that is warped between the two halves and pushed the vessel that way. It does allow for a much more tucked in design better for a war ship, and Sisko did say that the design of the warp drive made it so powerful it nearly tear the ship apart in testing- I find that to be an illogical statement if it were a normal dual nacelle. 1) The Federation should have the know-how to build a starship of that size with warp drive that does not tear itself apart, if it were normal. 2) It takes many fold the power the travel at warp than it does to wage war- the warp core never pulsates quickly when they are in combat as it does when the ship is even at low warp- thus it is not logical to design a vessel with a more powerful warp core than what it needs to travel at warp, if it were normal. 3) The Defiant is a single hull vessel, it should be able to withstand the most hull stress out of any Federation vessel, and the fact it was greater in strength and had problems is a point of curiosity. 4) We�ve now been told of the Defiant�s super powerful warp engines, and also taking into account the much lower mass of the vessel- we discover it is really quite slow compared to normal Starfleet vessels. This is what leads me to believe that either: A) It�s a quadcore and each side warps space between two parts, in a small enclosed space, and that both sides then push the ship forward- it is more protected, but comes at a cost because it takes more power to get speed out of this system because there really should be greater distance between the two parts to work at peak effectiveness, and to make up for this they dump more power into it to get it up to normal speeds. B) Sisko & Starfleet committed several errors in the design of the Defiant.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I seem to remember something to the effect of the Defiant being all the power and weapons of a Galaxy in a smaller package. Also, Roddenberry's starship design rules have been invalidated so many times that I find it amusing people still stick with them.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
*shakes head* That is not a statement I recall from any trek series- it would also be illogical to make the Defiant with a similar warp core to a Galaxy Class... It wouldn't be a flying warship, it'd be a flying bomb.
Please lay out why you feel the design rules are invalid.... I would hate to think they put nacelles out on pylons just to make them easier to shoot at.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
He's not saying the rules are invalid. He's saying they've been invalidated, or contradicted, many times.
The one that quickly comes to my mind is the Freedom class. Here are comments from Ex-Astris-Scientia.org
quote:Annotations 1) The "Frying-pan" class by Greg Jein is the only strictly canon ship with a single warp nacelle known by now. The Firebrand was among the ships in the Wolf 359 graveyard, and is depicted in the Star Trek Fact Files.
2) It has been argued that the ship wouldn't violate Roddenberry design rule #2 (nacelles must be in pairs) because the Galaxy-class nacelle has warp coils in pairs. But since the coils are vertically staggered inside the nacelle, they would act more like a single coil than if one were beside the other. Thus, if the warp engines are co-dependent across the ship's symmetry axis, it is a very inefficient arrangement.
Here are the rules:
quote: Rule #1 Warp nacelles *must* be in pairs. Rule #2 Warp nacelles must have at least 50% line-of-sight on each other across the hull. Rule #3 Both warp nacelles must be fully visible from the front. Rule #4 The bridge must be located at the top center of the primary hull.
Specifically points 1 and 2. My impression is that Roddenberry created the nonsense that warp nacelles must be in pairs in order to discredit Franz Joseph Design's work on the one-nacelled scout and destroyer concept from the Tech Manual. Roddenberry then flip-flopped with the Freedom so he had to come up with some explaination. Stating that the single nacelle was really a dual nacelle in disgusie sounds like he pulled it out of his butt.
The Challenger class would be another one that violates this principle.
Heck, nearly every Cardassian ship violates the concept. There is no clear space between the Cardassian nacelles.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Sure they have been contradicted- what in Trek has not been? *L* And it may have come from his butt, but I think any explaination that comes directly from Roddenberry carries weight.
Those are good rules I think- even I have not followed them all... nacelles tend to always be viewable from the front, because the bussard collector tends to be on the front of the nacelle, and they must be in a location to gather hydrogen- but one could easily relocate just that function elsewhere on a design, and then the nacelles need not be seen from the front. And the bridge is more a style rule than an actual "Rule" (one that will prevent the vessel from functioning well).
There is a gap between the Cardassian nacelles, it's small, but then again, Cardassians could have invented a means of warp drive, or warping space that is completely foreign to the Federation- perhaps their system requires the nacelle parts to be very close, and when they are farther apart they become less efficient.
The Romulans certainly found a different means of powering their vessels- and perhaps their means of warping space differs as well- it seems every Romulan ship design has them very far apart.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Roddenberry then flip-flopped with the Freedom so he had to come up with some explaination. Stating that the single nacelle was really a dual nacelle in disgusie sounds like he pulled it out of his butt."
I'm pretty sure that's something that's been invented by random people trying to reconcile the design with the rules. Not Roddenberry. I doubt that he cared about the TBoBW designs, since they weren't actually visible in any meaningful way.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
I think the design�s ok, not that unique, memorizing, eloquent, and sleek. It�s kind of clunky.
I would have made a few changes:
1. Incorporate the catamaran a little more to look less catamaran-like. For example I would have curved the inner parts towards the bridge section, so it�ll look like three bumps from a foreword view. This would not just make it look less like the Akira it would be more accessible for the crew.
2. I would then add shuttlebays on the ends of each catamaran. They would be more reasonable for shuttling cargos and to hold average size shuttles. The rear shuttlebay seems really large, and since this is a long range exploration vehicle should house large long range exploration vehicles like runabouts, venture class, delta flyer size ships for long range exploration. The ship would then serve as a central hub for the different long range teams. Also because the rear bay would hold larger ships, it would explain the long runway.
3. I think the silhouette is ugly, so to correct this, I�d first fix the pod or just remove it. Other than being cumbersome for the crew it seems to just stick out and not flow with the rest of the ship. To fix it, I would just push it a little further back, and make the sails more curved. Maybe an arch backwards, and lower the height so it would look more sleek. It might look better if there were three supports rather than two, mainly because we�ve always seen two.
If the pod is removed then the ship as a whole would look more sleek.
4. The nacelles are very Akira like, so make it thinner and sharper near the end, and have the bussard collector more angled and less circular. I would have its height reduced so I could see the change in shape of the engineering hull. Not only will it look different from the nacelles from the Akira class, the silhouette would look less like an ink blob and the saucer, engineering section, and nacelles would seem more definable.
By the way, I agree. Based on the runner-ups this design is by far the best design out of the mix.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Roddenberry also said that with alien ships "anything goes" (referring to the season one plague ship- he really liked that one), so it's more a case of how Roddenberry wanted Fed ships to look and not any technological limitation with Warp.
Besides, ships from TNG and beyond would reflect radicaly diffrent designs and technologies from TOS/TMP/pre-TNG as new member worlds added their cultues and ship designs to the mix.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
Speaking of ships reflecting different designs and tech from different cultures; I'd actually like to see something based off the Dauntless style. It would seem reasonable that the federation would try to adapt that design and develop slip stream tech, but that design should be some additional ship to the fleet, not the Titan.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ug. I'd rather get away from the aquatic look- it fuckiog SPACE- aquadynamics are not required.
Posted by wingsabre (Member # 1682) on :
yeah, it'll be aquadynamics but it's reasonable that starfleet would experiment w/ different techs brought back by voyager. Plus it seems like they're going in that direction. Look at the Wells class.
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