quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny:
I can't really imagine the fish looking intimidating in any way, unless it had some sort of jagged, lethal looking dentistry.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Isis was dead by the time of SG-1... the jar that imprisoned her had broken.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aban Rune:
We've seen a decent amount of variation in the Jaffa's uniforms, too, haven't we? Wasn't there one Goa'uld who had his Jaffa (or at least a few of them) decked out in Ninja-esque garb? I'm thinking Anubis...

And Sokar's Jaffa weren't traditional, were they?

I dig Ra's Jaffa uniforms, but I think Ra was on, like, a vacation or something during the movie. At the very least, he acted alot differently than other Goa'uld we've seen. And he didn't have hordes of troops all over his ship either.

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I still think Ra was something a bit diffrent than the ol' "worm in the belly" version parasite.

Mabye he was older, mabye he'd used an Asgard as a host before discovering Earth (explaining the odd -and creepy- flashback scene)...something to make this rather femminie bozo from the movie into a source of fear and awe for the other Goauld.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
I dunno... I find ladyboys frightening anyway.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Yup- waay scarier than hokey worm parasites that look like pissed-off flowers.
 

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Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
 
Pelops is Greek. He wasn't a god, but a man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelops I dunno what to represent him by...I don't think an ivory shoulder would quite work Probably just an ivory Spartan-sort of helmet.

Nirrti was Hindu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirrti Again, don't know what to represent her by, but as the goddess of Death, perhaps a skull.

Kali wasn't four-armed; the extra arms were severed limbs worn as a girdle. There's a good description under the Iconography section of the appropriate Wiki entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali#Iconography The most relevant section, I think, would be

quote:

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In most early representations, skulls, cemeteries, and blood are associated with her worship. She is black, naked and emaciated. Her face is azure, streaked with yellow, her glance is ferocious; her disheveled and bristly hair is usually shown splayed and spread like the tail of a peacock and sometimes braided with green serpents.

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So, I'd think a ferocious female blue face, streaked with yellow, with Medusa-like hair. Certainly would be neat-looking on the screen.

Chronos was the god of time, depicted as an old man with a long beard....so perhaps a Greek-esque form of the typical Egyptian Pharoahic deathmask, with a longer beard?

Zapacna is incorrect; it's spelt Zipacna, and he was a demon in Mayan mythology. He was depicted by a large caiman (a crocodilian reptile) so that'd be a good helmet. Cool-looking too!

Very very cool idea. Hope I've helped.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Wasn't Zipacna just subservient to Apophis and then to Anubis?

A reason why there was maybe an Anubis guard in The Movie - Anubis had been kicked out by the other Goa'uld a long time ago - maybe Ra absorbed his forces?

BUT I think in the movie they were actually supposed to be "Ra" "Anubis" and "Horus" - look at the end credits. Although there seemed to be two Horus guards and only one Anubis.

BTW have you started drawing/designing yet Aban!?!
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Mabye Ra used the First Prime of each of the system-lord he dominated as a show of strength-
Nothing says "I'm the boss" like a visible (if symbolic) collection of your conquored rivals.

Imagine it: Ra demands total obidence and fealty from his fallen enemies and uses the honor-bound First Prime to ensure his will is carried out.

In exchange, he's merciful (or at least spares the system lord and the general population.

Ra might have been a sissy, but he seems far less prone to the emotional outbursts and petty hatreds that make the other Gouald inevitably sloppy.

[ January 23, 2006, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
 

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Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
 
petty...
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Like your thinking there Jason.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
"I think Ra was on, like, a vacation or something during the movie. At the very least, he acted alot differently than other Goa'uld we've seen. And he didn't have hordes of troops all over his ship either."

Might go hand in hand with him being a dying outcast. He'd be down to his last Jaffa, hoping against hope to rebuild his power base by using the otherwise long-abandoned Abydos. The desert world wouldn't breed vast armies very fast, so better use the local populance for mining first, military service second, rather than tap the limited pool for two things at once...

Do the Goa'uld get free picks for what god they play to their slaves? If I were a juvenile Goa'uld working my way up, I'd pick as impressive a god as I possibly could; some of the above choices sound a bit petty. OTOH, did the Goa'uld make up the gods, or did they adopt gods created by the slaves of Earth? If the former, I'd expect them to constantly invent new gods to play, rather than just recycle the old ones.

Most of the human slaves have had no contact with Earth for millennia, and just plain wouldn't recognize an obscure old Earth god. If you are going to descend from space and tell them "I am this kind of deity with this kind of backstory, now kneel", there's not much point in using a "real" god and backstory...

The newest generation of Goa'uld would do well to use modern Earth fiction as their inspiration. Why not have Jaffa helmets shaped like the Predator one, for example? Or a Jason mask? Or a George W. Bush one? Terror is terror, and a Goa'uld or his loyal Jaffa will build his reputation by his fierce looks and cruel actions, not by the details or accuracy of his divine backstory.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Update: I've not started drawing yet. I wanted to collect some research first. I want to today though. Or at least doodling. I'm going to start by doing the standard base, the shoulderpads, collar and plate that covers the wearer's real face on which to build all the actual helmets. I'll make that initial drawing available if anyone else wants to have a crack.

Discussion: I like Jason's explanation of absorbing Anubis' first prime, though, yes, in the movie universe, they were actually supposed to be the God's Horus and Anubis.

As for the gods the Goa'uld pretend to be, it's been sort of implied both ways in the series. I think the best explanation is that the belief already existed, and the Goa'uld pretended to be those gods. Then as the population increased, they created some more lesser gods. Consider this, though, that only the system lords would ultimitely need to be feared. A display of power, a horde of Jaffa, and a simple, "I am Jo'blow. I represent your God Ra. Bring me a turkey sandwich... NOW!" would still capitalize on that fear. They used the people's existing fear of the gods... something they already worshipped... to gain their obediance.

As time went on, the descendants of Earth would pass on the fear/obediance of the specific Goa'uld who had enslaved them. There wouldn't be a whole lot of need for them to be afraid of others. Until the pyramid ships and death gliders came, of course.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
OK. Here is a fairly simplified drawing based on the Horus Guard Helmet from SG-1 "Moebius".



Please note, this is FAR from 100% accurate. I left off the surface detailing so it can be filled in as you like.

The "frog eyes" on the sides are where the "feathers" of the Horus Guard helmet attached. I figure they can be used for other things on other helmets. The actual head attaches to the little nub sticing out between the frog eyes. I left a little axe-head shaped plane defined as a rough estimate of where the head will go. The little hasmark is the approximate eye level for whatever beastie is on the helmet.

If anyone wants a high res scan of this to print out and play with, PM me with your email addie. You'll have to be creative in your use of white out or Photoshop clean-up to add or get rid of the armature lines.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Ok... I'll triligize my post with the first rough version of the Vulture Guard, formerly in service to Isis, before she was all stuck in a jar and corpsified. I still need to add some surface detailing and ornamentation. I may go back and do that later.


 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
"did the Goa'uld make up the gods, or did they adopt gods created by the slaves of Earth?"

What bothers me about the idea that they're impersonating gods is that they seem to use the identities everywhere. Why would they know each other by the gods they're pretending to be? Did they have no identities before coming to Earth?

I think that perhaps some of what they used to control their slaves came from the mythology, and that the mythology adapted to the Goa'uld rather than the Goa'uld adapting to the mythology.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
It's probably a bit of both.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Augh, this is awesome and one of my favorite topics! Curse you, corporate conference!!

I'll add lots more shortly, but in a nutshell:

-Zippy was subservient to Apophis (one of many minor Goa'uld that were doing so).

-Even so, some minor Goa'uld have Jaffa forces of their own (Imhotep) while some apparently don't. Only the major families of the system lords seem to keep with the big helmet thing.

-Note that there IS some distinction between "regular" Jaffa and the helmeted version, which seem to be a sort of elite. In the episode with Klorel's trial, Teal'c notes that Zipacna's guard consists of "a Serpent Guard and two Jaffa", indicating that there is a rank structure in place besides "first prime and everyone else".

-Jaffa armor never came in too many flavors. The standard grey suits used to be the norm, which were then differentiated between Jaffa and full-blown something guard. When Sokar came along, we saw that at least his elite Jaffa guards had cool red organic-looking armor. When Apophis absorbed his forces, his Jaffa were still wearing the usual armor, but stained red. Later iterations had most Goa'uld-allied Jaffa wearing the full suit, and the rebels wearing only pieces thereof.

-In the movie verse, RA WAS THE LAST ONE. The novels state explicitly that Horus, Anubis et. al. were humans who had assumed the roles of the respective gods, which were TITLES that were passed on from one generation to the next. The first couple novels actually depict the power struggle between these leftover humans (including a human Hathor), fighting over Ra's remaining weapons and power base.

-It's my belief that in the SG-1 verse, Ra *was* on vacation, and in his pleaure yacht no less. He wasn't expecting an uprising from a bunch of people on a remote planet, so he brought only his core first prime(s) and a relatively unarmed Ha'tac (which we only see him and Heru'ur ever use, I might add) for a weekend worship cruise.

-No problems with the Anubis guard being Noobie's former first prime, or someone symbolically portraying the role as a testament to Ra's power (Anubis had been banished centuries previous, after all). The guy may not even have been Jaffa! Jack states in COTG that the guys he faced were human. However, he does tend not to notice things unless they're directly related to someone trying to kill him, so...

Remember, We only get hints on the show as to Ra's ACTUAL power, mostly as references here and there to the centuries when the Goa'uld were perpetuating a stagnant harmony in the Galaxy. IMO, it was a fluke more than anything else that he happened accross some relatively primitive, but really determined Tau'ri with a nuke in their back pocket. It was crushing the head of the figurative snake that set everything in motion, after all. Sorta like some explorer from Europe traipsing off to Asia and killing Genghis Khan without knowing about the society he led. The rest sorta plays out.

Mark
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
I always assumed that the Goa'uld were being all "I AM YOUR GOD!" and what not and had the names we know them by. Human mythology just incorporated these names later on.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
That would make the most sense, but I'm pretty sure that it's stated in the series that the Goa'uld co-opted the religious beliefs of the locals. Of course, SG-1 might not have all the answers, either.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
I figured Earth was the first place they really dominated. In their days on Earth, they weren't so much System Lords as Nation-State (or less) Lords. That's when they adopted the names of human gods. Later on, when they transported humans to other planets and started being System Lords, they had no reason to start changing the names they'd been using for centuries.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I always figured the other way around - as Unas, they conquered Earth and then ruled it once Ra figured out that humans were much better hosts. They didn't assume the roles of gods as much as create them as they saw fit - after they left in the first wave, their legacies evolved into the mythologies we know today.

Not every Goa'uld was remembered god, including Yu and Pelops; however, some of them thought of themselves as such afterwards (like Yu). When the original Egyptians defeated Ra, it wasn't too much of a loss since by that point most of the System Lords had abandonned Earth as a source of slaves and hosts, having seeded plenty of worlds by that point to use themselves.

Then there are the Asgard and their own seeding efforts, to say nothing of the Ancients, blah blah blah...

Mark

Mark
 

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Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Aban Rune:
Of course, SG-1 might not have all the answers, either.

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SACRILEGE! You need to Ascend.

The only problem I see with the "Pleasure/Worship Cruise" theory is that with all the intrigue and crap that goes on, I can't see Ra getting so careless that he let's his guard down that much. I also can't believe he didn't just launch a bunch of gliders to deal with the problem instead of just two.

Granted, I think the series makes the point that the absence of Ra led to the system lords having their little pillow fights, but what did that really mean? If the U.S., Britain, or Russia was wiped off the face of the map would it really cause any more upheavel among the already warring nations? Certainly the superpower nations mere presence has done little to quell war between other lesser nations. And we've seen both in Iraq, the Falklands, and Afganistan that just because you are far more powerful that doesn't make you invulnerable to getting tagged by a lesser force. All the more reason to keep your guard up.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
I'd say that they showed up infrequently to most of the planets under their rule and various oral re-tellings of their origins padded the mythos to the point of diefication.

Consider- super-aliens show up, kick everyone's ass, enslave the population, teach them how to build great monuments, plant crops etc, -then split.

A few dozen generation later, they come back to find the locals have built a whole mythology around them, and willingly do whatever is ordered without that whole ass-kicking part.

What does not fit is that there are Guauld for all the major egyptian gods.
That would seem to indicate that Earth was a major seat of power for many of the system lords at the same point in time.

Mabye Ra used Earth as a meeting place to forge alliances or as a place of banishment for fallen enemies?

Really great illustrations, Aban.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
There could be a distinction there in that the Goa'uld power base is feodal rather than national-patriotic. If you slip down the prestige pole, you stand to lose all your military and industrial might, as your forces may see fit to defect to a more prestigious leader. Such an arrangement would be more unstable than one where the power is tied down to a specific ideology or society.

When a top Lord goes down, it's not just a question of getting a new Lord. The replacement would have the power bases of both the old top Lord AND his preexisting own, resulting in a different power structure overall (Apophis assimilating Solkar). Or then the power behind the late top Lord would disperse among the lower-downs (Ra's heritage being plundered by others).

It may be that vigilance is not the way to stay in power in the Goa'uld society. A feodal standing army may not be possible; rather, you survive by forging alliances that will react to attacks. The reaction time will be long, as we saw with Apophis and Earth, so the alliances work through deterrence rather than through practical and immediate force. Ra could very well bet his fortunes on extreme deterrence rather than petty direct force, much like many Goa'uld put their host bodies in line of fire with regal indifference.

(Granted, they have their forcefield protection, and are unused to the sort of opposition that could penetrate these fields, but still... Apophis frequently went to places with very light bodyguard only, and the Yu- or Chronos- level Goa'uld often eschewed with direct protection altogether.)

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Did they? They showed up to Earth sans Jaffa, but that was required by their temporary cease fire agreement.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
The Skeleton Guard, in service to Sokar (or is it Solkar?)



The skull would constantly emit flames . When the helmet folded up, the flames would go out right before hand. Now... think how cool it would be to see a Jaffa spin around and have that tail of flame follow his head.
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
While I like these, I think you're limiting yourself creatively by maintaining the same base helmet. The original Horus and Anubis helmets mimicked the Egyptian depiction of those gods with their long necks and (relatively) small heads. While that may work with some (like, say, a crocodile head), that doesn't necessarily work for all. I think you ought to try experimenting outside the box some.

B.J.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Yah, I should. I realize that the reason the helmets on the movie are the way they are is because they mimic the hieroglyphic representations of the Egyptian gods. 2 considerations, though: 1) The show pretty much uses the same base. 2) I didn't really want to spend crap loads of time on this. It was just a cool little idea. The reality is, each Goa'uld, especially those not linked to an Egyptian diety, would likely have a fairly different helmet system.
 

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Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
 
lol i cant wait to see the cow helmet...
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
For some reason, that skull looks disproportionately tiny, compared to the rest of the helmet. Also, it looks really silly with that exclamation point on it.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Sokar's symbol was star-shaped.

http://stargate.neoseeker.com/stargate_sg1_season_1/Movie/pages/symbols/

http://www.gateworld.net/articles/columns/sum/tree01.shtml

Mark
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
The exclamation point was just the start of some surface detailing like what's on top of the Horus Guard's head.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Looks like they worship {i]Ghost Rider[/i].

I think holography is easy enough for their tech level, so really, it's anything goes.
The helmet could looks as realistic as yuo'd like (and on the show would be CGI anyway).
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Do you see a motorcycle?


 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Not yet, but with all the other crap Harley offers, Jaffa helmets are sure to be arriving soon...
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
After a little googling, I managed to dig these up.
http://www.fengzhudesign.com/characters.html
Check out the 6th, 7th & 8th images.
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
WOW. That is awesome. I'm really liking the jackal ones.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Wow. Yah, those are definitely better than the ones in the show... or mine.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Yeah- you suck, Aban!
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
Sokar's symbol was star-shaped.

http://stargate.neoseeker.com/stargate_sg1_season_1/Movie/pages/symbols/

http://www.gateworld.net/articles/columns/sum/tree01.shtml

Mark

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THANKYOU!!!!!!!

I have been for ages thinking about collecting all the various Goa'uld symbols used that correspond to the different Goa'uld!

I had a great page bookmarked - but it's disappeared.

I generally agree with most of them...

except. Yu - was more a Chinese character - the box was smaller and higher up the 'verticle line'

I know we saw Hathor's symbol on the First Prime seen wearing leather armor outside in the season 3 first episode. On his chest not on his head.

I don't recall them ever having shown Nirrti's or Seth's

I'm sure Heru'ur's was more... clean.


Can we get some clarification on these symbols??

Then it'd be great to see - was it Reverend?? do some of those neet drawings like the Star Trek symbols - recreating these Goa'uld symbols.
 

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Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
 
Someone already has, I have a jpeg that shows 20 of the symbols(although I have a feeling the pictures on that website were made with these). My ftp's fudged up right now, but I'll upload the image when it comes back.
 

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Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
 
Silly editing thingamybob...

Here it is, http://www.johnpearse.partsking.net/JaffaSym1.jpg

Can't remember who the artist was, but they posted it on Scifi-Meshes. Might've been that Resistance dude, or Reverend. I get them confused.

[ January 28, 2006, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Topher ]
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Wasn't me.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Thanks Johnny!

Reverend - maybe you'd like to do your own version!?!

Where did they get Seth, Ramius Pyrus and Montu from!?!

What episodes were Ramius, Pyrus and Montu in anyway?

Is Montu what the annoying Jaffa leader who beat Bratak for council position's Goa'uld is?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Seth's symbol wasn't seen on any Jaffa, but was seen around web searches about him. Typus was a guy who had assumed the guise of a minor Goa'uld when he killed him, to stay under the System Lords' radar and save his people, waaaaaayyy back in the second season. Ramius was trying to forge an anti-Anubis alliance with another System Lord, Tilgath, when both were killed by Anubis' new super soliders in season 7. Montu was the minor Goa'uld for whom Gerak was first prime this year.

Johnny's picture isn't bad as well, though I prefer the other one for some of the symbols, i.e. Imhotep.

Mark
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Yu's symbol in Johnny's picture is more correct than the other though. What episode was that with Ramius and Tilgath?

Any ideas for Camulus and the hot Japanese Goa'uld?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
"Evolution, Part I". We see Ramius' corpse for a few seconds at the top of the episode before the Kull warrior comes in blasting.

I'm of the opinion that Camulus and Amaterasu were second-liner System Lords who rose to greater power via attrition if nothing else. Camulus is the Gaul god of war, and associated with Mars/Ares (also a System Lord), killed in the late part of season 8. Amaterasu is the Japanese Sun Goddess and central figure to the Shinto religion (also the *only* Goa'uld whose religion is still practiced - there's no Christian or Buddhist or Muslim Goa'uld, yes?). As a benevolent deity in Shinto, she may have had a very interesting time on Earth back in the day. Too bad she's dead now.

Dunno about their symbols, though. Perhaps a dragon for Amaterasu, and a big obelisk for Camulus?

Mark
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"...(also the *only* Goa'uld whose religion is still practiced - there's no Christian or Buddhist or Muslim Goa'uld, yes?)..."

No, but there was a Hindu one.

And Sokar was apparently posing as Satan for a while.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Sigh.
Doesn't everyone eventually though?


I think we should see a Goauld Jesus: his regeneration chamber could be a big crucifix.

Though, a Gouald Elijah would fit the bill better from a mythological point of view.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Are there any Japanese/Shinto people who are annoyed at SG1 for portraying their god as a power-mad (albeit sexy) alien overlord?
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
If they understood that the Goa'uld only took the persona of an existing cultural icon and didn't create the religion themselves, then they shouldn't be.
 

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Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
 
Shintoists don't have a 'god'...the general Japanese archetype for divine being is a 'kami' which doesn't really translate into English. "Divine being" is really the closest, but the first humans were kami as well.
 

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Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
 
You also have to remember that when the Egyptians sealed the gate most of the world's religions wouldn't have been founded yet or would just be in the initial stages. Egyptian, Greek, Mesopotamian, and early Asian belief systems would be the major belief systems of the day. Islam, Christianity, Shinto, Buddhism, Hinduism, and the rest would all be "new" inventions. The one religion that would be around at the time but seems to have remained separated from the rest is Judaism, but that most likely is because of its unique monotheistic structure. The Jews would never accept a false god like Ra.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Yet as mentioned earlier HotAsianGoa'uld was a Shinto 'god'.
 

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Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
 
You could translate kami as god or goddess if you wanted, depending on what exactly the being was. I mean, you could call a river kami a 'river god'...

As for Judaism, it would be interesting to see Goa'uld depicted as angels and/or demons in rabbinic or kabbalic scriptures... like, Lilith Adam's first wife who refused to be on the bottom during sex and so was banished and birthed a hundred demons a day yadda yadda...being a Goa'uld queen spawning 'demonic' Goa'uld parasites.
 

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Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
 
Well, incidentally...

http://www.cheyenneme.com/products/concept.php
 

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Posted by Odysious (Member # 1180) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny:
Silly editing thingamybob...

Here it is, http://www.johnpearse.partsking.net/JaffaSym1.jpg

Can't remember who the artist was, but they posted it on Scifi-Meshes. Might've been that Resistance dude, or Reverend. I get them confused.

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