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A new look at an old Bonaventure
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>aridas</b> <br /><small>Member # 1051</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,9,6,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 09, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:04 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Over at the BBS that shall not be named, there has been a lot of civil and uncivil debate about the <i>Bonaventure</i> from <b>TAS</b>. It prompted me to get out some of my recent illustrations and look them over to see if I still liked what I'd come up with. I found out that I really didn't. <br /><br />So, I started over. In the "Federation Reference Series" history, the inconsistencies of the <b>TAS</b> ship looking too advanced for the 21st century were dealt with by having <i>two</i> ships by that name, one from 2065 and one from 2202 (the <b>TAS</b> ship). I always liked the <b>Greg Jein</b> model of the 2065 ship, but the whole idea of having nacelles produce warp power in early starships (which originated with, I'm guessing, <i>Phoenix</i>) didn't fit with anything I'd done (which predated <i>Phoenix</i> by quite a bit and was based on the <b>Matt Jefferies</b> ringship as shown in <b>TMP</b>). <br /><br />So, even though I like the NX-01 design and could work with it, and like <i>Phoenix</i> (but not its launch system), and like that <b>Jein</b> <i>Bonaventure</i>, I decided to figure out how I would have done it. This is based on only the materials I would have had available at the time, so it's (more or less) how I imagine a circa-2065, very early warp ship designed by <b>Matt Jefferies</b> for <b>TOS</b> might have looked. <br /><br />The <b>FRS</b> idea of warp evolution was a bit different from what eventually was adopted. In short, in going from that ringship to NCC-1701, I charted a course that had early starships not have nacelles, but <i>be a nacelle</i>. Much as <b>Masao</b> accords the development of the M/AM reactor great historical importance, I made the development of paired nacelles, working in tandem to converge two warp bubbles, a big deal. I was also basing this on how long it took to get from one in-line motorjet (Coanda 1910) to the first turbo twinjet in 1939.<br /><br />So, as you can see from the cross section, this early ship has a big gravity source at the front and back, and a big scoop in the front. Its two rings amidships can be seen as distant precursors to the warp coils in later nacelles. This ships does have nacelles, but they are M/AM rockets and serve the purpose of later impulse engines. Within the protection of the big rings is the rest of the ship, which is designed to have a vaguely DY look. Smooth, because it's meant to be in the <b>Jefferies</b> style like the DY-100 and ringship, but with <i>some</i> exposed stuff, because it's meant to be primitive.<br /><br /> <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/Bonaventure-2065-final.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/Bonaventure-2065-final.jpg</a> <br /><br /> <a href="http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/bonaventure-2065-section.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/bonaventure-2065-section.jpg</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Shik</b> <br /><small>Member # 343</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,9,8,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 09, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:26 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Huh. That's weird. Alos, I don't think I've ever seen this "Jein <I>Bonaventure</I>" you mention. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Toadkiller</b> <br /><small>Member # 425</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,9,9,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 09, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:01 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Hmm. I don't like the pre-TOS "ring ship" concept too much. So, I expected to not like your ship...but I do. It looks like it could belong in the trek-universe.<br /><br />Nice. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,9,9,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 09, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:17 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Shik: He's referring to Zefram Cochrane's first warp ship that Jein built for the first edition of the Chronology. You know, the one that's now invalidated by the appearance of the Phoenix.<br /><br />The thing about the TAS Bonaventure is, there's just no way of getting around the fact that Scotty referred to it as the "first warp ship." If you're like me, who selectively picks & chooses certain things from TAS that I feel could be canon, and disregard other things that just don't work in the larger scheme of things, then you should just ignore what Scotty said. Or even better, ignore the ship, as it looks pretty stupid anyway and definitely was not built during Cochrane's time. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Toadkiller</b> <br /><small>Member # 425</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,12,21,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 12, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:14 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> We could also disregard Phoenix as having not been a "ship" as far as Scotty was concerned. But rather a "craft" or even a "testbed".<br /><br />Leaving the Bonnie as the first "real ship" that Earth fielded. Certainly the thing we see in FC doesn't quite count as a "ship". <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Shik</b> <br /><small>Member # 343</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,12,21,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 12, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:23 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dukhat:<br /><strong> Shik: He's referring to Zefram Cochrane's first warp ship that Jein built for the first edition of the Chronology. You know, the one that's now invalidated by the appearance of the Phoenix.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh. yes. of course. I always liked that model myself, so much that I easily noted its other reuses.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>The thing about the TAS Bonaventure is, there's just no way of getting around the fact that Scotty referred to it as the "first warp ship." If you're like me, who selectively picks & chooses certain things from TAS that I feel could be canon, and disregard other things that just don't work in the larger scheme of things, then you should just ignore what Scotty said. Or even better, ignore the ship, as it looks pretty stupid anyway and definitely was not built during Cochrane's time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">One could submit that Scotty meant "warp drive" as in modern-style warp drive. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,12,22,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 12, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:19 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">We could also disregard Phoenix as having not been a "ship" as far as Scotty was concerned. But rather a "craft" or even a "testbed".<br /><br />Leaving the Bonnie as the first "real ship" that Earth fielded. Certainly the thing we see in FC doesn't quite count as a "ship".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, the TAS Bonaventure looks more advanced than the Daedalus class which had to have come before it tech-wise. No, I'd say that the first real "warp ship" to have a regular crew and mission was the Valiant, that we know of. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,5,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:13 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Shik:<br /><strong>One could submit that Scotty meant "warp drive" as in modern-style warp drive. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You mean like the warp five engine? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> (Says he who really isn't fond of the lousy tech background of said show.) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,7,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:52 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, we could be creative and say they cut out some of Scotty's lines - he could have said that "That's THE FIRST WARP SHIP... that he served on". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /><br />Might have been the first FEDERATION Warp Ship? The others were just EUSPA or Earthfleet or whatever? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sean</b> <br /><small>Member # 2010</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,8,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:08 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Might have been the first FEDERATION Warp Ship? The others were just EUSPA or Earthfleet or whatever? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wouldn't that be the Daedalus? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Daniel Butler</b> <br /><small>Member # 1689</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,14,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Or we could point out that TAS isn't canon and say the Bonaventure didn't exist or that Scotty never said that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . Still, in the interests of geeky rationalization, maybe he meant first "modern" warp ship that was actually Federation Starfleet. Was the Daedalus ever confirmed on-screen anywhere to be the first Fed warp ship? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sean</b> <br /><small>Member # 2010</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,14,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Or we could point out that TAS isn't canon and say the Bonaventure didn't exist or that Scotty never said that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or we could, ya know, not. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,15,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Or we could, ya know, not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why? TAS had pretty much been considered non-canon for years, until Paramount started selling the DVDs. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sean</b> <br /><small>Member # 2010</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,16,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:04 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Exactly, but isn't it considered canon now? It'd be like someone saying the Enterprise doesn't exist, Masao aside.<br /><br />I always thought that the Daedalus was the first vessel that was developed through contributions of Federation worlds, which would make it the first truly Federation Warp vessel. Although it could just as easily be a recent type of Earth vessel that was drafted into Fed SF service, and then further produced by the Federation after it was found satisfactory. <br /><br />Are there any ships in the SF Museum that look similar to the Bonaventure (TAS version), to at least give us a theoretical idea of when it may have been produced? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,16,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:14 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Masao has the Bonnie placed around 2200-2210, as a contemporary of the <a href="http://www.starfleet-museum.org/lancaster.htm" target="_blank"><i>Lancaster</i></a>, the <a href="http://www.starfleet-museum.org/quetzalcoatl.htm" target="_blank"><i>Quetzalcoatl</i></a>, and the <a href="http://www.starfleet-museum.org/paris.htm" target="_blank"><i>Paris</i></a>. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sean</b> <br /><small>Member # 2010</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,16,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:29 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Then maybe Scotty could have said- <br /><br />"Thats the first warp ship (new design) of the this century." <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dukhat</b> <br /><small>Member # 341</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,21,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:16 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly, but isn't it considered canon now? It'd be like someone saying the Enterprise doesn't exist, Masao aside.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Masao never said Enterprise didn't exist. He said that he wasn't going to change the Starfleet Museum to reflect what was shown on ENT. That was his choice, but it doesn't constitute a denial of the existence of ENT.<br /><br />I, however, personally feel that all four years of Enterprise was just a holodeck re-creation by Riker, and that the real events of 2151-54 were completely different. And no one is going to convince me otherwise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,13,22,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 13, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'll say it now. Enterprise doesn't exist! I'm not sure about Bonaventure. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Daniel Butler</b> <br /><small>Member # 1689</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,14,4,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 14, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:20 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Er, and since when is TAS "canon now"? What did I miss? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>aridas</b> <br /><small>Member # 1051</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,14,5,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 14, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:08 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> As long as we are talking <i>Bonaventure</i>, this is what I'm working on as a means to give some Trek meaning to that odd shape seen in <b>TAS</b>.<br /><br /><a href="http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/Tritium_Bonaventure.jpg" target="_blank">http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/Tritium_Bonaventure.jpg</a><br /><br />The background I'm considering has this <i>Bonaventure</i> be a research prototype for a class of cruisers whose design is tweaked somewhat in response to the loss of the first ship. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,14,7,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 14, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:54 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Looking at that... maybe the Bonaventure was a systems test-bed for tech that eventually was incorporated in the Constitution Class? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Mars Needs Women</b> <br /><small>Member # 1505</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2008,4,14,8,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 14, 2008</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I,like Shik, enjoy Jein's Bonaventure as well. I feel it could fit continuity better than the Bonaventure in TAS(ie it could have been the ship Cochrane used to leave Earth and end up on the planet with the she-cloud). The TAS Bonaventure could be err...shoved into canon as the "first warp ship" of the Federation in the sense that it could have been the first ship developed with the combined input of early Federation members, whereas the Daedalus may have predated the Federation's founding and be an entirely Earthly design. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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