• The Cygnus (from The Black Hole)
  aCylon Basestar (from Battlestar Galactica)
  The Sulaco (from Aliens)
  The Executor Super Star Destroyer (from The Empire Strikes Back)
  a City Ship (from Independence Day)
  Kirk's 1701 Enterprise (from Star Trek (TOS))
  The Mother Ship (from Close Encounters Of The Third Kind)
  The Jupiter 2 (from Lost In Space(TV))
  An Eagle Transport (from Space 1999)
  The Discovery 1 (from 2001: A Space Odessey)
  Salvage 1 (the scrapyard ship constructed by Andy Griffith from 1979's understandably shortlived Salvage)
  The Galactica (from Battlestar Galactica)
  that first Star Destroyer (from Star Wars)
  The Spaceship of the Imagination (from Carl Sagan's belovedCosmos)
  Picard's 1701-D Enterprise (from Star Trek: The Next Generation)
  a Visitor Mothership (from the miniseries V)

I'm afraid I didn't keep notes (or videotape it (which would have been brilliant)) and so I don't remember the exact pairings. It made for quite a funny and lively discussion amongst the panel and audience. I will post who wound up winning in San Diego, but I thought it might be fun to discuss a little here...

[ August 05, 2002, 15:07: Message edited by: Balaam Xumucane ]
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I don't know about a third of those ships, but out of the ones I know, the Executor wins any straight-up battle, hands down.
 

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Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
 
Don't forget that a single A-Wing was able to take down the vessel. If you know the vulnerable spot - the shielding - you should be able to take her out with most of those ships. I really like that ship, but ROTJ makes it look like a dumbass-construction.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
Well, based on the credentials of the various members, I'm sure it would have made for a very lively and funny discussion.
In the end, thats all the best we can hope for, afterall, most of these ships don't even exist in the same universe, let alone follow the same rules of physics as each other.
Arguing about whose ship has the bigger and badder death ray, will be as valid proof scientifically, as taking the various plastic ship models, throwing them at each other from across a room, and seeing which ones breaks the least.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
I was kind of hoping they'd have models of all the various ships in the same scale for demonstration purposes. But I think the ID4 city ships are supposed to be like 15 mi. across, and probably would have dwarfed the others (except maybe the Executor). Incidentally the Executor did not make it past the first round. If I remember correctly, the argument was made that the Spaceship of the Imagination was able to survive a close range super-nova while it only took a single out of control A-Wing to nix that Super Star Destroyer...
 

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
To say nothing of the Cygnus (AND the Palomino) surviving passage through a black hole.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
And on the weird science channel, Picard's Enterprise did enter an anti-time anomaly. How does that fare scientifically against a supernova or a black hole?

You might also note that the Enterprise's cousin, Voyager survived passage both into AND out of a black hole, whatever that means. Enjoy
 

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Posted by Colorful Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
I'd like to see those Visitor and Independence Day behemoths slug it out... preferably over a large city. Maybe throw in an Executor or two to serve as cannon fodder -- total carnage guaranteed.
 

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Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Shik:

To say nothing of the Cygnus (AND the Palomino) surviving passage
through a black hole.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:
Don't forget that a single A-Wing was able to take down the vessel.

...it only took a single out of control A-Wing to nix that Super Star Destroyer...

AAGGGHHHHH!!!!

"All ships, concentrate your fire on that Super-Star Destroyer!"

The ENTIRE FRIKIN' REBEL FLEET was shooting at the thing for quite a while, not just one A-Wing!

"Star Wars" ships apparently use fusion reactors to power even those gigantic Star Destroyers

Nope. It may be CALLED "fusion" in a couple books, but to generate the energy we see examples of, it'd have to be orders of magnitude beyond nuclear fusion in any form. The DS, for example, runs off of something called hypermatter, and generates more power than would the m/am annhilation of a good fraction of the station.

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But the ship didn't appear to be havily damaged, it looked absolutely intact when the A-Wing hit it.

*looks at the pictures and remembers all those 'the B5-ships are totally oversized'-debates* - I thought the Whitestar was ~450 meters long. And you know that the term 'a 5 miles long space station' is controversial, too.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Ugh... I hate it when people start debating cross-series starship matches. Mainly because they invariably degenerate into something like "Oh yeah? Well, mine's BIGGER!" It's basically a way for fanboys to figure out who has the biggest penis. (I can NOT believe that I just typed that.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Kyle Amasov: The B5 ship lengths that I got were from the most exhaustive ship length analysis that I could find at the time. It was still a fan analysis, though, based mainly on screencaps. Since then, I found a link to some "definitive" size charts that were used by CGI editor Tim Earls. http://warlock.isnnews.net/resources/sizecharts/

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quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:

AAGGGHHHHH!!!!

"All ships, concentrate your fire on that Super-Star Destroyer!"

The ENTIRE FRIKIN' REBEL FLEET was shooting at the thing for quite a while, not just one A-Wing!

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Does it really matter that the whole fleet was firing. They WERE just using good old "Light Amplification (by) Stimulated Emission (of) Radiation", i.e. lasers

Heh, I wonder if a fraction of Omega would "undergo m/am annhilation" if we poke at Star Wars a bit more
 

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Posted by Prismatic EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mucus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:

AAGGGHHHHH!!!!

"All ships, concentrate your fire on that Super-Star Destroyer!"

The ENTIRE FRIKIN' REBEL FLEET was shooting at the thing for quite a while, not just one A-Wing!

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Does it really matter that the whole fleet was firing. They WERE just using good old "Light Amplification (by) Stimulated Emission (of) Radiation", i.e. lasers

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i never noticed any lasers being used in Star wars.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Lessee.... there were turboLASERs, and LASER cannons, and quad LASER turrets... gee, I can't imagine when they had lasers in "Star Wars"...
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Does it really matter that the whole fleet was firing. They WERE just using good old "Light Amplification (by) Stimulated Emission (of) Radiation", i.e. lasers

Yes, because anything with "laser" in the name must be a laser as we understand it, even though its observed properties are nothing like those of lasers...

But the ship didn't appear to be havily damaged, it looked absolutely intact when the A-Wing hit it.

Except for the distinct lack of shields protecting the bridge, which indicates a rather large hole in the shield, which indicates rather heavy bombardment considering the absurdly high power ratings of shields of STANDARD Star Destroyers as derrived from the zero-damage asteroid impacts from TESB...
 

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Posted by Prismatic EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Lessee.... there were turboLASERs, and LASER cannons, and quad LASER turrets... gee, I can't imagine when they had lasers in "Star Wars"...

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that's what they were called, but they sure as hell weren't lasers. are photon torpedoes lasers? afterall, they apparently involve photons in some way.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
The Drakh mothership didn't look nearly that large onscreen. Especially when a single Whitestar started shooting at it and the whole thing blew up.
 

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Posted by Prismatic EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 
i thought that a single White Star destroyed a Drakh carrier, not the mothership... been a while since i saw it.
 

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Posted by Colorful Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
Back in the seventies, lasers were a relatively young invention (and thus not quite understood by the general public), making them ideal big bang deathrays for the less technically inclined. If Georgie had possessed any notion of real-world physics, he might've also had the sense to come up with more imaginative names for his energy weapons -- so pointless arguments like this one could have been avoided.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:
Yes, because anything with "laser" in the name must be a laser as we understand it, even though its observed properties are nothing like those of lasers...

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quote:

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As for Prismatic EdipisReks, I'm sure that Trek fans would gladly concede that photon torpedos are light-based if Wars fans conceded that lasers are well....lasers

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well, i'm both a trek and wars fan, and i concede nothing!
 

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Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
 
POKEY, THERE IS NOTHING NEW SAID HERE!!!!

HOORAY!!
 

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Posted by Prismatic EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 
nurse, quick! get CaptainMike 50cc's of hot fudge, stat!
 

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Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
 
THE CAFFEINE IN THE CHOCOLATE WOULD IRRITATE MY STOMACH LINING KILL ME!!!!?
 

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Posted by Prismatic EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 
nurse, quick! 50cc's of hot caffeine for CaptainMike, stat!
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:
The Drakh mothership didn't look nearly that large onscreen. Especially when a single Whitestar started shooting at it and the whole thing blew up.

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We only saw that super-huge Drakh mothership once, and that was in the "Crusade" episode "Each Night I Dream of Home." The Drakh carrier was the long thin one, that was their usual heavy cruiser-type ship seen in the other engagements, and dated back to the B5 episode "Lines of Communication."
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Ah... I thought it was supposed to be the LoC ship. Nevermind, then.
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Magnus Pym Eye:
That Drakh mothership is ludicrously large. I'm tempted to say something about penises, but, I won't.

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Just be glad the size comparison chart doesn't seem to have the Shadow or Vorlon planetkillers.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
If it had a profile view of a Super Star Destroyer, I'd be REALLY worried...

But it's so BIG... and LOOONG...

*shudder*
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Actually, the Shadow planetkiller was made up of a whole bunch of small missiles, right? There wasn't one large ship. However, you're right about the Vorlon version...
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
Well kinda yes, kinda no.

The Shadow planetkiller looked like a cloud that could disperse around a planet and rain down missiles of some sort. However in Call to Arms, when ships enter the cloud there is still a massive super structure. In fact I think the Victory rams a critical spot in the planet killer destroying it.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
I couldn't tell you why no B5 ships were included. I mean the panel was admittedly Trek-biased, but I think we could have done without one of the Star Destroyers or maybe the ID4 ship. I wonder if it came down to licensing?
 

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Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
 
Well, the the mix of ships does tend towards older mainstream science fiction.

Nothing from say...B5, Farscape, the newer Star Wars, Stargate SG-1, Andromeda, Earth Final Conflict, DS9, Voyager, etc.
They probably screened out ships that the panel wouldn't be familiar with, I mean a debate in which no one knows anything....uh...moreso.....would be rather uninteresting.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Was Red Dwarf in it? That ship is longer than a Super Star Destroyer or even B5.

Not especially glamerous, I'll admit, but still...
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
I did a bit of research on the ships... I knew that the Drakh mothership from "Crusade" was big, but I had no idea it was that freakin' huge. That's almost large to the point of absurdity.

By comparison, I included a side view of the Super Star Destroyer, based on some calculations I found on a Star Wars site, which said that the Executor was around 11 times the length of the original Star Destroyer, or around 17.6 kilometers.



I haven't found any reliable calculations of the size of the Vorlon planet killer, but that thing was probably at least 20 kilometers long, probably a lot more. And from the way I understand the Shadow planet killer, that framework had to be bigger than an entire planet -- which would probably put it somewhere on the order of the Death Star in terms of construction materials.
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 
That's pretty durned big. But I suppose if you are talking about something with the capacity to destroy planets, I suppose you'd need something of that magnitude.

Liam: Actually an audience member did ask why Red Dwarf hadn't been included. Altman's kneejerk reaction was that someone always brings up Red Dwarf. Not really much of an explanation, but it did seem like quite a brush-off. I suppose they wanted to get ships we'd all be familiar with, but I still think Salvage 1 was reaching.

I really wish they'd had size comparison charts like the ones Capt. Kyle and MinutiaeMan have posted. Not that it would have made much of a difference, but it still would have been interesting to see.
 

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Posted by Prismatic Faye Valentine Fanboy (Member # 510) on :
 
would that have been Red Dwarf with crew, or without?
 

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Posted by Nim Pim Pim (Member # 205) on :
 
I would've liked to have seen a side view of the Spaceball-1.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
In or out of Mega-maid mode?

As for the Vorlon planetkiller, bear in mind that it was large enough to totally eclipse the Centauri sun from quite high above the planet...
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Actually, that doesn't necessarily prove that it's quite as big as one might think. I did the math...

(orbital altitude) * tan (0.5 degrees) = approximate length of Vorlon planetkiller

Using this formula, I assumed that the planetkiller was just a disc -- the main body was fairly circular, after all. Earth's sun is a disc approximately 0.5 degrees, although that varies slightly during the year. I just assumed that Centauri Prime is close enough to be like Earth so that this whole thing is easier.

At a height of 300 km, the ship would only have to be 2.62 km long to block out the sun. And this would still result in not much more than a partial eclipse for anyone standing anywhere other than directly under it.

Now, the planetkiller might not have gotten that close. If they'd stayed further out -- maybe 6000 km, which is a pretty high orbit, but close enough to give the "oh no!" effect shot of the planetkiller with the wreckage of the Centauri warships and the planet in the background. If the ship were 6000 km high, it would be 52.35 km long.

So, we can't really determine a definite length without finding out how high the Vorlon ship was orbiting. But it still provides a good comparison or starting point.
 

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Posted by Prismatic Faye Valentine Fanboy (Member # 510) on :
 
b5tech.com guesses that the planet killer is 45km or so in length.
 

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Posted by Nim Pim Pim (Member # 205) on :
 
Maybe one could measure by the thickness of the energy beams that hit it when it blew.
I wonder how many were on it. Them Vorlons are a migthy forgiving kind.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
Well, there was one shot that I specifically remember, where there was a long pullback from a Vorlon heavy cruiser (the big ones from "The Gathering") with the planetkiller in the background, and then it panned out to show the entire ship. I never got around to an analysis, but it might be possible to figure it out from there.
 

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Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 
are there any scenes that show a whitestar, or another ship of known size, near the planet killer. there has to be something we can use. well, maybe we can extrapolate the size of the walker of sigma 957 ship by comparing it to ivanova's whitestar, and then compare the walker ship to the vorlon planetkiller. we could at least figure out the size limits. i'm not doing it, though, too much work.

[ August 09, 2002, 21:01: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
I suppose that's possible. The problem is that the perspective compared to those large ships is vastly distorted. Like the shot of Ivanova's White Star and the Sigma 957 Walkers... the big ship was literally looming over and so even a halfway-accurate calculation might not be possible.

As I recall, most of the younger races' ships stayed away from the planetkiller and let the First Ones blow that up.

I just remembered a shot from the episode where Ivanova and Marcus first discovered the Vorlon fleet. When they stumble into the Hyperspace pocket, for a brief moment you can see the forward ships of the Vorlon fleet, and the of the "nose prongs" of the planetkiller. Again, the scales are so huge that an accurate measurement might not work. But it's worth a shot.

My sister has the entire B5 series on tape; I'll do a bit of research later tonight or tomorrow if I have time. (However, that will be AFTER I finish writing my guest episode for "Series ?"... )
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
That'll be the third or forth episode of season 4. Possibly "Falling towards Apothesis", or "Dark things with scary night dark bits". One of them.

quote:

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That's pretty durned big. But I suppose if you are talking about something with the capacity to destroy planets, I suppose you'd need something of that magnitude.

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How big was the Death Star again?

And can't the Defiant destroy a planet? I've never been too sure on that. "The Die Is Cast" seemed to indicate that it would take a fleet of ships, but "Broken Link" has Garak saying that the Defiant could reduce a planet to a "smoking cinder."

quote:

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would that have been Red Dwarf with crew, or without?

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Surely that would be exactly the same size? Or is this over the two different models used for Red Dwarf? I never liked the second one. It was too straight. The first one had bits and greebles that made the ship look a lot bigger.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Nah, it'd be before "Falling Toward Apotheosis". They removed Kosh specifically because the Vorlons had started to move.
 

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Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by PsyLiam:

quote:

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would that have been Red Dwarf with crew, or without?

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Surely that would be exactly the same size? Or is this over the two different models used for Red Dwarf? I never liked the second one. It was too straight. The first one had bits and greebles that made the ship look a lot bigger.

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i was referring to whether the ship battle would be with the red dwarf crewed nor noncrewed. afterall, it had 5 entities onboard for most of the show. that would have to be detrimental to the ships combat capability.
 

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Posted by Nim Pim Pim (Member # 205) on :
 
"They removed Kosh specifically because the Vorlons had started to move."

Tough, man. Had he been put on a temporary ban by his admin?

And what was the deal with that darker, more aggressive vorlon, Kosh's successor, that raped the facial cavities of that redhead on a daily basis?
If he got offed by the partial soul of Kosh, from his shuttle, doesn't that mean Kosh is against the Vorlon High Command? Even for a vorlon, that must be bad for the health, no? Like an outer space "X-Files"... :-)
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Omega: The purple one wasn't Kosh. He was just being obtuse when he said "We are all Kosh". Stupid annoying Vorlons. His real name was Ulkresh, although I don't know if that was ever said on screen. It might have been in "In the Beginning".

FTA is the forth episode, and "Whatever Happened To Mr Garibaldi" is the second. It has to be the one inbetween them. The one where Sheridan first has his scary hard bastard haircut.
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Hmm... obtuse Vorlons on one hand, obscure nitpicky Liam on the other... decisions, decisions...
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Hey, I wasn't being nitpicky. It's more JMS trying to be clever.

But I don't think that the crew ever call the purple one "Kosh". They just say "The Vorlon", and continue to refer to good old "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will Die" fun and light as "Kosh".
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
The third episode was "The Summoning." The one with that ever-so-entertaining line:

quote:

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Drazi: "Captain... we're sorry. We thought you were dead."
Sheridan: "I was. I'm better now."

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Granted, there's not really a good way to say that you've returned from the dead, given the relative lack of said occurrence in today's world. But I still think that was one of the silliest lines in the entire series.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
More silly than "Get the hell out of our galaxy"? Or anything that G'Kar says in season 5?
 

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Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
Granted, there's not really a good way to say that you've returned from the dead, given the relative lack of said occurrence in today's world...

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Sure there is:

'The reports of my death weren't exaggerated, but they didn't tell the whole truth.'

There were no B5 ships in the smackdown. Did I mention that?
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
"Perhaps THIS is your true name."

He went WAY too Delenn that year...
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Yes, but he managed to outdo even her on the "what the "fuck" are you talking about" stakes. He couldn't go five minutes without wandering off into a bad piece of pop-philosophy that would cause real people to say "stop it, you silly man."
 

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