SCI-FI is showing a rerun of the first season episode "Soul Hunter" right now. The nut-job of the week was supposed to capture the soul of Dukhat ten years previously. The Minbari prevented him because of their belief in reincarnation, similar to Buddhism.
I wonder... does anyone we know later on have the soul of Dukhat, as Sinclair had the soul of Valen?
My first thought -- perhaps young David Sheridan?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
As I recall, we discover in the course of the show that the Minbari belief in reincarnation was based on the triluminary reacting to Minbari containing the "soul" of Valen - specifically, Valen's descendants, and Valen/Sinclair himself. The idea of Minbari souls being reborn as humans was based on the glowey thing reacting to Valen's DNA (or whatever). I don't remember anyone ever mentioning anything about reborn souls except when talking about Valen, so I don't think Dukat (no H) is mentioned in that respect.
Mark
[ October 28, 2002, 16:54: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Actually that, Dan had the spelling of the B5 Dukhat right. The Trek Dukat has no h
And it was mentioned, if not in "Soul Hunter" than in "River of Souls" that as far as the soul hunters were concerned, Dukhat's soul was lost forever. As for how the Minbari are concerned, I'm not too sure.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Whaaat?
[flipflipflip]
Dang, you're right. "The" Dukat has no H.
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, that's true... the Triluminaries were reacting to Sinclair's DNA. However, I don't think that the Triluminaries were the sole basis of that belief. I always figured that the religious philosophy was something that predated the appearance of Valen. Remember Delenn's "star stuff" speech? This isn't just simple reincarnation -- it's a whole theory of the Universe. And remember that idea of "soul mates"? ("See you in some other lifetime...")
Now, it's not necessarily correct... but if the Minbari held such reverence for Dukhat, then they may be looking for him to return, just as they did for Valen.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Just a minor point, Valen's soul was not "reborn" in a 1:1 ratio. Instead, IIRC every one of his descendants seemed to have a "piece" of it, if we can interpret the triluminary in that manner. If that is the case, then Dukhat's soul might not necessarily be reborn in just any one person, but might be more dispersed.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
The Minbari belief is that their souls, unless captured by soul hunters, will be reborn in future generations of Minbari. This way, the "whole" is not dimininshed over the centuries even if the actual individuals are long gone. So, ideally, Dukhat's soul will be reborn in another Minbari, although they don't seem to think that Dukhat himself will return.
Why do I say ideally? Well, we also have the idea of the transmigration of souls, which says that, for quite some time, Minbari souls have been going elsewhere. Rathenn gave a date of 6000 years ago in one of the comics; Lennier put it at 2000 years ago in "Points of Departure", while Delenn put it at 1000 years ago in "War Without End." Obviously, nobody was sure when it started, and we don't know how the theologians came to this belief.
Now we come to the triluminary, whose one important function was that of an Actual Valen Descendant Detector. Even if they knew about Valen's different DNA, and even if they speculated that this is how the triluminary identified his descendants, how likely are they to conclude that the reason the triluminary glowed for Sinclair and other humans at the Battle of the Line was their sharing Valen's DNA? Then they remembered the transmigration theory, and decided that the triluminary actually detected the presence of Valen's soul, concluding that Valen's soul went to Sinclair and the other humans.
After the truth about Sinclair being Valen became known, Delenn nevertheless concluded that the transmigration of souls was tied to the DNA and moved the date to 1000 years ago. What probably happened was that the Minbari were stagnating for an indeterminate amount of time as a result of their own cultural rigidity, and not as a result of Sinclair's DNA mixing with their population.
Boris
[ October 28, 2002, 19:35: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, Delenn did say in "Soul Hunter" that the souls melt into each other, so that may imply that the souls aren't born 1:1...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
See? Omega's backing me up here. Hmmm, that looks weird. Omega's backing me up here. Still weird. *shrug*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes they basically halted the Earth-Minbari war cause they realised that the Souls of Minbari were being reborn in Humans - who they were slaughtering by the thousands.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I don't think the "one important function" of the Triluminary was as Valen Descendant Detector, that was just one function of many; if it had been the most important function, then it would never have been used as a mere interrogation device on a member of a species they were about to wipe out. That would have been disrespectful to a sacred relic, especially when even the Warrior Caste were showing signs of wearying of the war.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
I didn't say it was the most important function, but that it was ONE important function. Maybe I should've said "one of the functions."
Boris
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Yes, you should have. 8)
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
There's also the question of whether the rebirth of Minbari souls in human bodies is still going on after Delenn's transformation. I seem to recall that her metamorphosis into her (mostly) human form was done in part to balance Sinclair's transformation into Valen. If the shifting of souls from Minbari to human began with Valen (as seems to be the party line with B5's backstory), then the implication is that Delenn's change should put an end to it.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Perhaps... but David Sheridan the younger would be part Minbari, right?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"does anyone we know later on have the soul of Dukhat, as Sinclair had the soul of Valen?"
The problem w/ this question is that there's no analogy. Sinclair didn't "have Valen's soul". He was Valen.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Good point. So other than Sinclair, there's really no "proof" of the reincarnation of the soul.
Figures, especially since JMS was an atheist, he'd probably not add much definitive proof of any specific philosophy.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The yound David Sheridan would be part Minbari? I don't know - one would assume. Maybe this was the beginning of the journey to how that 1000000 in the future human looked. He (when in corporeal form) looked Human and Minbari.
Also, there was a line of thought that the Minbari that had facial hair: Lenonn, Dukhat, Draal etc. Had Human genes from Valen.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Of course David would have some Minbari features! We already know that Sinclair's Human DNA survived the trip through the Triluminary and was passed on to his kids. Therefore, it stands to reason that Delenn still has her Minbari heritage. They always referred to her as a HYBRID, remember. Otherwise, wouldn't her head bone have fallen off when she hatched from the chrysalis?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It didn't fall off, but it came off enough for her new hair to pass through...
Mark
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
That was bone? I always thought it was rubber, myself.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I thought the rubber went over the bone!?! ;o)
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote: Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Good point. So other than Sinclair, there's really no "proof" of the reincarnation of the soul.
I thought they explained that at the beginning of season two. When Lennier was telling Sheridan and Ivanova about the Battle of the Line in the first episode, wasn't there a line that mentioned they tested other humans after the Triluminary glowed for Sinclair? (I could be wrong; it's been a while since I saw the episode).
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I thought I heard that too. That they took other humans from ships on the Line and tested them. Which is actually quite ominous - no other pilots reported having periods of lost time; maybe said pilots were found to not have Minbari souls and as a result it was judged more convenient to just dispose of them. . .
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Actually, no -- they tested other Human pilots and found that some of them DID have Minbari souls, which confirmed their belief that Minbari souls were being reborn in Humans.
I guess the question now is, just what did the Triluminary glow in response to? (Assuming that the Triluminary was also used to test the unseen Human pilots.) Sinclair's DNA makes sense for Sinclair himself and Delenn... but what about the other Human pilots? I doubt that they were relatives of Sinclair.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Well, in a sense they might be.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
The Triluminary may have just been responding to human DNA since it was configured for a human to Mimbari transformation. I assume that the way Delen set it up somehow reversed the process. Also, wasn't it also mentioned that there were three triluminaries, if so where did the other two come from, if not the great machine?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Maybe that's the ultimate function of the Triluminaries - to effect the conversion from one species to the other. They can detect the presence of Minbari souls in humans, or human DNA in Minbari mainly to, in effect, say "Yes! There's something here I can work with!" Cobble that together with a set of Minbari Isolinear Tarot Cards™, and away they go.
What's not clear is what happens to the little triangular beasties afterward. Perhaps it's a one-shot deal: Delenn used one, Sinclair used another; I like to think that perhaps the third was used by Catherine Sakai since one of the approved-by-JMS comics suggests she fell into an Anomaly Of The Week, became Lost In Time And Space (and meaning?), and was eventually reunited with Valen.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
quote: Minbari Isolinear Tarot Cards�
I would SO buy those.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vogon Poet: What's not clear is what happens to the little triangular beasties afterward. Perhaps it's a one-shot deal: Delenn used one, Sinclair used another; I like to think that perhaps the third was used by Catherine Sakai since one of the approved-by-JMS comics suggests she fell into an Anomaly Of The Week, became Lost In Time And Space (and meaning?), and was eventually reunited with Valen.
Actually, the idea was originally started in one of the novels, "To Dream in the City of Sorrows."
Basic summary (with spoilers): Basically, Catherine Sakai ended up joining the Rangers a few months after Sinclair went to Minbar. She went on a mission with him and Marcus that involved the same temporal anomaly in Sector 14 near B5. I think they were trying to keep some Shadow scoutships away from the portal or something, but I don't remember for certain. Anyway, Sakai fell into the portal and was Lost In Space And Time.
The novel ended with Marcus finding a letter from Sinclair (after Sinclair finally went back in time to become Valen) that basically said, "Thanks from both of us." The letter was on a piece of ancient parchment, so it was left ambiguous whether the letter had been written by Sinclair only recently, or by Sinclair-as-Valen a thousand years ago (with the implication that he'd found Sakai in the past).
However, I've never heard any more firm information on the True Fate of Sakai one way or the other -- I think JMS wants it to remain ambiguous. It's more interesting that way.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: However, I've never heard any more firm information on the True Fate of Sakai one way or the other -- I think JMS wants it to remain ambiguous. It's more interesting that way.
If Sinclair and Zatharus kept the devices that kept all of them from becoming "Uunstuck", then they could have found her and kept her stable till they were out of the anomoly. Maybe she was hiding behind one of the Encounter suits we saw at the end of the ep. @)
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Minuteychops: I stand corrected. However, my impression that the comics provided some extra info probably comes from this page, relating to the comic issue "In Valen's Name, part III."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Although that theory is shot down slightly by this:
quote: Still... it's been a good life... lives... over all. Delenn, Catherine, Susan, Michael... if any of you see this somehow.. don't cry for me. For in the final analysis, I've always been too hard on myself. I'll be content to let history judge me, and all that has been done in Valen's name. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her."
However, I seem to recall a mention that this was taken out of at least some publications of the comic, which would seem to confirm that he did mean Sakai.
On the other hand, this comic takes place after Into the Fire but has Garibaldi still as Chief of Security. Which means it has to take place before the episode following Into the Fire, which doesn't seem right.
So, *shrug*.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
We need [wooden][/wooden] ubb code.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Now, now, after 40 off years as Valen, maybe he learn how to emote?
Posted by LET CAPTAIN = MIKE THEN GOTO 10 (Member # 709) on :
all this discussion kind of makes me wish i'd ever watched an episode of b5 just once.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
HEY! Leave Sinclair/Michael O'Hare alone!! The've been repeating season 1 alot in Australia atm, and Sinclair isn't THAT BAD - Sheridan looks comical in comparison - too over the top. And Michael O'Hare is a really nice bloke.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I've always preferred Sinclair to Sheridan. I often wonder how the show would have gone if the change hadn't been made.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Instead of ending the way the series did with Sheridan in "Sleeping In Light", it probably would have ended with the Sinclair of 20 years in the future going back in time to be Valen, rather than the way they did it in the "War Without End" two-parter. Undoubtably he would have had the romantic relationship with Delenn as well (as it seemed to be hinted in "Babylon Squared").
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Seeing as Catherine Sakai and he were getting Married as of Crysalis... does that mean there would have been some sort of Sakai death?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
My guess would be vanished and assimilated by the Shadows ala Anna.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ahhhhh yes, of course.
Assimilated though? Or were they more... absorbed? And how-come Garibaldi never got all 'Morden-ised' after he was captured by that Shadow vessel?
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Because the Shadows turned him over to the Psi Corps, where Bester got ahold of him.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Assimilated, absorbed, rewired, whatever. You know what I mean.
Now MY question is this: if Sinclair had stayed, who would have been the third of the three of the One? Ivanova?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
There's been much speculation about what the show would've been like if Sinclair stuck around. Obviously I'm not a great authority on the subject -- though some interesting comments can be found at the Lurker's Guide. From what I gather (and know about the show) I believe that...
-- JMS said that the story that became "War Without End" would have been the SERIES FINALE instead. This would involve a climactic battle for Babylon 5, in which the Shadows (or probably the Drakh) attack the station in order to prevent Sinclair from going back in time and becoming Valen. (Thus explaining Sinclair's vision -- and the many other prophecies -- of the station exploding.)
-- Catherine Sakai would have been captured by the Shadows and turned into a Pentium IV chip for one of their vessels.
-- A Sinclair/Delenn romance. Eek!
-- JMS hinted that a Sheridan-like character was already planned for some role on the station, though just what that would have been is uncertain considering Susan's position.
However, in his first comments about the departure of Michael O'Hare, he also emphasized that the series was going to stay very much the same. Therefore, although some of the players changed, and some of the timing may have been different in other circumstances, the overall story and the basic ideas were never touched.
Edit: In response to Omega's question, Ivanova does seem to be a likely candidate for the third member of "The One." Delenn was always the religious, Sheridan the warrior, and Sinclair the worker (builder?). Ivanova would be logical as the warrior part of the trio. However, that would also make Ivanova into The One Who Will Be. Just what would she end up doing later on? Would she end up carrying on the torch of the Alliance, I guess?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, she did end up as Entil'zha...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
*sigh* Would have loved to have seen the whole series as it was supposed to be - but then again wouldn't that have involved the cast of the Pilot?
Everything as it should have been. BUT the series could have been a bucket of crap if that was the case - but I think not, not on the strength of the latter half of Season 1. Look at Chrysalis!!
Andrew
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes, but also look at a lot of other season 1 episodes, which were often poo.
JMS also once said that the reason Sinclair was gotten rid of was that burdening him with Valen's soul, AND a Shadow connection would have been too much.
Personally, I think that he realised that O Hare was just a bit too...laid back, and that he needed someone a bit fore pro-active. And ginger.
I think that since he chose for Sinclair to depart, it probably strengthened the series overall. Compared to Ivonova leaving, which just messed everything up.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'm a bit dubious about the possibility of a Sinclair-Delenn romance. But you never know. As for the third One, I suspect that we can probably see what was left of that role in Marcus Cole.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
As I understand it, the financial backers of Babylon 5 wanted Sinclair gone. They're also responsible for the "teeny-bopper" fighter pilot who showed up, joined the main cast, then got lost between jumpgates.
Take what you hear from JMS with a grain of salt.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Keffer was fairly useless, sure, but, uh, it had been a long time since he had seen his teenage years. You so crazy!
Also, main cast?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Keffer was on the main cast because he got a listing in the opening credits for all of Season Two. A novelty in sci-fi, really -- a redshirt character in the main credits! (That's all Keffer ever was, really -- a glorified redshirt who was looking for the Shadows.)
As for O'Hare's departure... I guess it depends on whether or not you believe JMS. He's said in unequivocal terms that the departure was an "amicable" and "mutual" decision.
Regarding the part about not loading EVERYTHING onto Sinclair (Valen, Shadow War, Earth Civil War, and Alliance President), I think that's JMS trying to put a positive spin on that part of the issue and the changes he ended up making.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Well, according to what he has said, JMS did plan for even the worst case you're suggesting (networks wanting Sinclair gone despite JMS' stringent objections). Like any other character, Sinclair had a trapdoor just in case. The B5 story ideally shouldn't depend on any one character, as opposed to shows which ideally do depend on certain characters.
Now, whether or not he was successful is up to the viewer to decide, but this kind of planning did allow the show to last five years, as opposed to its getting cancelled at the end of season two or three.
Boris
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The show was almost cancelled at the end of season four. JMS went so far has filming "Sleeping in Light." That's why Ivanova is in the episode, with no mention of Lochley. It was how he wanted to end the show, so it was filmed. Luckily, they were given the go for season five.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Luckily" being a matter of opinion...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Re: What if Sinclair never left. There's some interesting speculation at The Babylon-5: That Never Was, although some of it seems overdone in my opinion.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I don't think Lochley should have turned up. Infact she was better on Crusade.
They should have just promoted Lt. Corwin.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Lochley replaced Sheridan, not Ivanova, as the Earthforce officer in charge of the station. Corwin was the one who replaced Ivanova. He couldn't have jumped two ranks to replace Sheridan.
Boris
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think you'll find that Lochley did infact replace Ivanova since when Sheridan promoted her to Captain and left Earth Force it seams logical that Ivanova was intended to take command of the station. When Claudia decided she didn't want to stay on for Season 5 then they replaced her character with Lochley and stuch Ivanova out of sight on her own ship.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Ivanova never was station captain as far as we could see; Lochley replaced Sheridan directly. Even if she was the Captain for five days, you're merely distracting from the actual argument, which is that Corwin couldn't have filled Lochley's shoes.
Boris
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
You're confusing a character's rank with their position within the show. Even if Ivanova stayed and took command of the station the primary character of the series would still have been Sheridan with or without Lochley. As for Corwin, yes in theory he could get a promotion and take over Ivanova's old job as station XO, not that his rank matters of course because that's exactly what he ended up doing.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Of course, if you pay attention during the fifth season, Corwin (and many of the other officers) are still wearing the Army of Light uniforms instead of the old EarthForce uniforms -- meaning that not all of them decided to re-enlist. For the fifth season, B5 was kind of in administrative limbo -- the EA didn't completely take back control, but the station hadn't officially been bought by the ISA either. (Even though it was the de facto capital!)
Most of that was explained in the first episode of the season when Lochley came on board.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Reverend: Yes, JMS could've chosen a nameless character for the new Captain, then decided to focus on Corwin as much as Ivanova in the earlier seasons. However, the point was to continue the intended story as much as possible, and having nobody important in Ivanova's place would've probably dirupted things quite a bit.
I don't know why people think that B5's fifth season wasn't meant to exist. Only parts of the fifth season were moved into the fourth, not the whole thing.
Boris
[ November 18, 2002, 15:29: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I liked season 5. Maybe not Lochley too much. I actually liked what's his name - long haired telepath's story line.
Season 5 - because of it's uncertainty and the loss of Claudia made it a bit topsy turvy.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Ok; I haven't seen B5 for absolutely ages and even then I only watched occasionally (and hence didn't usually have a clue about what was going on. Then again I was about 7); I did buy In the Beginning recently and quite enjoyed it, so I wa just wondering if you guys think it's worth trying to get my hands on videos/DVDs of the series.
Thanks.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
My advice:
Yes, under certain conditions. You should start with The Gathering and watch the first season through the end, at which time you'll either be hooked or you won't. B5 takes a long time to introduce, but it's worth it.
If you aren't hooked by the middle of the second season, not to mention the end, then you probably won't like B5. Of course, the mystery and the surprises will be slightly diminished since you've seen "In the Beginning"; then again, season one might end up being less boring as a result, and there's a lot that has to happen.
Don't watch "In the Beginning" or "Thirdspace" until you're through with the first four seasons, and don't watch "The River of Souls" and "A Call to Arms" until you're through with the entire show. Then, you can go on to Crusade and Legend of the Rangers.
As for the novels, definitely read "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" (99% canonical) after you've seen the first three seasons. Other novels worth reading are "The Shadow Within" (to be read after season three), the Psi Corps Trilogy, the Centauri Prime Trilogy, and the Technomage Trilogy (to be read after-season five). They're all fairly canonical because JMS wrote their outlines, although none come close to "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", which he checked line-by-line.
There are a few canonical comics here and there, but they are pretty hard to find and much of their subjects were covered onscreen likewise.
Boris
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I'm trying to get my wife to watch B5. The fact that it's got Kenickie in it is a big plus for her (saw a programme on TV about the stars of Grease this evening, she even said "phwoar" when she saw what Jeff Conaway looks like today), but there's no Zack Allan until s2, and I don't want to confuse her by showing her a Sheridan ep before she sees the Sinclair ones. . . What s2 ep should I show her? My best estimate is probably either "Midnight on the Firing Line" (which has the benefit of being the actual first ep) or "Parliament of Dreams" because that bit at the end had a real effect on me first time round.
But definitely not "The Gathering," no way. 8)
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Oh, for fuck's sake, what is the fucking matter with my PC (or whatever the fuck is causing this double-posting) at the moment?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
"Midnight on the Firing Line" is a good intro to the political situation on B5. Not the best storyline -- especially the too-convenient ending with the Narns supplying the pirates -- but still good.
"Parliament of Dreams" is a great character ep and an all-around intro to each of the major races of the show. Vorlons excepted, of course.
"Mind War" is a great choice if your wife is also a Star Trek fan because of Walter Koenig, and it's also great for its intrigue.
"And the Sky Full of Stars" got the ball rolling on the Sinclair storyline, and thus is basically the real beginning of the series arc as a whole.
It's not really an arc episode by any means, but "Soul Hunter" actually caught my attention more than "Midnight" did.
I guess this depends on how many B5 eps you want to show her to get her hooked, but if I were to pick just one, I might actually suggest "Signs and Portents." It's a bit cheesy in a few places and relies a little on the background of previous episodes, but has some great mystery and I still get shivers down my spine whenever Ed Wasser walks on the screen.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
A Trek fan? I, er, wouldn't go that far. I want to avoid arc-heavy eps because that'll just remind her of the X-Files that we both watched but then gave up on. Which rules out many of my standout eps from s1 - "Voice in the Wilderness," "Babylon Squared" and of course "Infection." 8)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, if you want to avoid the arc stuff, then I'd strongly recommend "Soul Hunter." It's a great non-arc story that has some meaty philosophy and several alien perspectives on a topic that's caused great strife for millennia.
"Infection"... heh. If there was ONE episode of B5 or Crusade that I truly did NOT like, it was that one. Jeez, was that horrible!
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
One really has to see several episodes in a row, preferably starting from The Gathering, otherwise it's hard to form an accurate opinion about the underlying story and character relationships. Even if the new viewer goes past the low-quality CGI, she risks being confused by the current episode because the previous pieces are missing (or enjoying just the B-story without fully understanding the A-story).
It's better to start from "The Gathering", and to watch as many episodes in a row as possible, preferably with few interruptions.
Boris
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Boris: I don't think you're quite getting the difference between "Hardcore sci-fi fan" and "normal person who might want to watch a TV show and not look up stuff on the internet about it".
I'd skip The Gathering, because it is a bit dull. I also get the point of the arc stuff from the X-Files, but there is a fair difference between them. The X-Files set stuff up, and then more stuff, and then more stuff, and continued until you realised that NOTHING WAS EVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Whereas with B5, well, it does.
When I got people to watch B5, I generally tried to get through season 1 as quickly as possible. But in any case, I'd start with Midnight on the Firing Line, since it does work as an "introduction" episode, it showcases most of the characters, the set-up, and it isn't bad, really. After that, just go through them one by one and say either "Is this important?", or "is this any good?"
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
I liked the episode where the bald alien chick got hair.
Show it with care, though.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm, for a quick introduction into B5 working only with S1. (for the casual viewer)
Midnight on the Firing Line: View. Have to agree with others, this is a good introductory episode...moreso than "The Gathering" because they won't have to deal with confusing cast changes.
Soul Hunter: Skip. Interesting, but not really too special. Born to the Purple: Skip. Good for the Londo fans, but not for a casual viewer. Although it gives insight into his character, its nothing that other episodes don't do better. Infection: Skip.
The Parliament of Dreams: Interesting and amusing. Probably view. Mind War: View, especially for the Trek fans. If in a hurry, view after watching the rest of S1 (excepting Chrysalis) since its really setting up material for later seasons.
The War Prayer: Skip.
And the Sky Full of Stars: The first definitely view. Sets up the whole Minbari war act, Valen, etc.
Deathwalker: Skip. Amusing end, not totally necessary. Believers: Probably skip. Very amusing and thought provoking end, definitely nothing you'll see in Star Trek...but again, not very necessary. Survivors: Skip. Homeguard into, but Chyrsalis will do that with more style for the casual viewer. By Any Means Necessary: Skip. Seems to setup threads that aren't followed up anyways.
Signs and Portents: Must view. Enough said.
TKO: Skip. One nice line for the fans, but blah to the rest. Grail: Skip. Lukewarm reaction. *shrug* Eyes: 50-50. Helps roundout Survivors and Chysalis, but eh. Its got a pre-Weyoun Weyoun though. Might help with the DS9 fans Legacies: Skip. Introduction of Nerron, but nothing that can't be picked up.
A Voice in the Wilderness (I and II): Maybe, sets up later seasons. Same idea as Mind War.
Babylon Squared: Definitely. Especially if you put it after "And a Sky Full of Stars" Heh. Mess with their heads.
The Quality of Mercy: Skip. Seems to be here just to setup Marcus' eventual *cough*.
Chrysalis: Definitely View. Enough Said.
Final Tally: 5 Must View: Midnight, Sky Full of Stars, Signs and Portents, Babylon Squared, Chyrsalis.
4 Necessary for later: (if the first four "must view" go over well): Parliament, Mid War, Wilderness I and II
3 for the surprisingly enthusiastic: Legacies, Deathwalker, Believers, Eyes
Not bad. A quick intro to the best science fiction TV show in under four "must view hours." Not bad Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Nice analysis, Mukey. 8)
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
Again, won't work as well as watching a couple of shows in a row. The understanding, surprises and revelations will be diminished, and B5 depends on the surprise factor and careful watching to keep a viewer interested.
It's kinda like one of those cheap soap operas in Spanish -- they're shot on video using synthesized music and uneven cuts, and the only reason people want to see them is to find out What Happens Next? Of course, B5 is not nearly in that category, but it does borrow a few tricks from that kind of show to offset its low budget.
Boris
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If you can - go down to your video store and borrow out the entire first season (usually they have deals for old weekly vids - like $7 for 10 weeklies.
I did this with the second season of B5 when they came out on video - and I got through the whole season in a few days - it was great stuff.
Also did that with Stargate-SG1 season 1.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I have s1 on video, annoyingly given they're finally coming out on DVD. The chances of anyone wanting to buy them off me are slim.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Definitely a good analysis, Mucus. But I'd offer a few differing points of view.
"Believers" -- Yeah, this isn't a momentous episode, but the first time I saw it, it really made me sit up and realize that this series was not your average sci-fi show. The twist ending was very different, and very thought-provoking.
"By Any Means Necessary" -- Not one of the first eps to show, certainly, but this episode is one of my favorite non-arc eps of the first season. For one thing, the enormous live-action crowds for the strike scenes were very impressive and proved that the series was not going to cut corners to make its point. (By contrast, any Trek show would have had no more than 10 or 15 extras for a "crowd" scene.) I've actually written an attempted "review" of this ep: check here.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Thanks very much, everyone; I'll have to check out the video rental place to see what they've got.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Actually, its interesting that someone mentioned Stargate SG-1, since I'm rather fond of that show as well. Plus there's the fact that I saw a season set at the store for a mere $50 CDN. Haven't made a decision yet. On one hand, it does offer continuity and some nice dialogue, on the other hand, its continuity is somewhere in the lower half between X-Files and B5. Just enough to keep interesting things happening and avoid X-Files' fatal annoyance factor, but not enough to create a compelling overall story.
I read your review, and although I'm much more indifferent about this episode, your review is rather interesting. I particularly like the quote:
quote: It's a rarity in science fiction series when the plot focuses on events outside the core characters which invariably form the command staff of whatever outpost or ship the show takes place on. An unfortunate side effect of this is that the outside world of that series tends to be glossed over or even ignored.
This is obviously not the case on "Babylon 5."
In one of the commentaries for the S1 DVDs, JMS mentions that the genesis of B5 was a combination of two shows, one about a set of characters stuck in a "tin can" space station, and another about the rise and fall of empires. As a Foundation fan, I'm particularly fond of the second part....which is why I particularly like the political and historical (for lack of a better word) aspects of B5. This aspect is really absent from ST, with the half-way exception of DS9 which did involve "outside events."
As for the twist ending in Believers, I did rather like it and I agree that it demonstrates that B5 is indeed different. The problem is that the rest of the episode is rather plodding and slow....a nice ending doesn't single-handedly make for a good episode. Deathwalker kind of fits in the same category, although its a little better off. The explanation behind the serum and the subsequent Vorlon "solution" to the problem are nice but do not make the episode a classic.
If we want to introduce the new viewer to a good B5 twist ending, both Sky Full of Stars and Chrysalis will do admirably. Both start with a cliched science fiction story (a seemingly unwarranted interrogation ala Drumhead and a conspiracy to assassinate a powerful figure) and end with a twist: the captain IS in fact hiding something and the assassination ISN'T stopped by a last minute heroic deed.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
True. And I don't think that anyone can fail to be intruiged by "Babylon Squared".
You have two choices. Go straight away for one of the Big ones, like And the Sky Full Of Stars, or start with Midnight On the Firing Line and work towards it. If at all possible though, try and avoid watching Crysalis first. It works so much better if you know a bit of backstory.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Thanks very much, everyone; I'll have to check out the video rental place to see what they've got.
Where on Sol III are you? If it's the UK, they should be readily available.
And do what I did to my local video store - just keep pestering them week after week until they eventually by the whole season! That's how I got them to bring season II in. They would have made money off me anyway - cause I borrowed them out and then forgot to take them back for a few days! Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: and the assassination ISN'T stopped by a last minute heroic deed.
Indeed - that was quite a powerful moment for season 1. The frustration of the crew knowing what might happen - and their futility at not being able to be doing anything about it at the last minute.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Where on Sol III are you? If it's the UK, they should be readily available.
Yep, I'm in lincoln though, which is a bit of a backwater. I'm fairly sure the video place has them and they usually have some ex-rental on sale very cheap (I picked up a few DS9 tapes for �2.99 each).
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
If you must do so, at least don't use "arc" episodes to introduce the viewer to a twist ending. If anything, use standalone shows that the viewer can understand from beginning to the end, that she can be surprised by on their own merits.
Watching "Chrysalis" alone is nothing like watching it after the first 21 shows. The viewer doesn't know that this is the first time Londo did something as awful and cannot feel for him, or that it's the first time G'Kar really becomes a victim. You need time to establish the Londo=good and G'Kar=bad perception, so that "Chrysalis" can properly shock you.
I'd rather you don't spoil that kind of fun for anybody. If you really have to start with a few random shows, pick the ones from season 1 that have very little or no connection to the overall story ("Believers", "Survivors", "By Any Means Necessary", "The Quality of Mercy").
Even so, standalone shows are not what B5 is about. The original "Twilight Zone" is a lot better in that kind of thing.
An example:
Aliens come from outer space and start helping humanity, solving all of its problems. Earth is becoming a paradise. One of them accidentally leaves a book entitled "To Serve Man", whose contents are written in the alien language. Just before the humans are about to leave for the alien planet, where a greater paradise is being promised, the woman examining the book comes screaming and yelling at the spaceport:
"I managed to translate the book. To Serve Man...It's a...It's a COOKBOOK!"
Boris
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Where on Sol III are you? If it's the UK, they should be readily available.
Yep, I'm in lincoln though, which is a bit of a backwater. I'm fairly sure the video place has them and they usually have some ex-rental on sale very cheap (I picked up a few DS9 tapes for �2.99 each).
Well seeing as Australia and UK video releases seem similar (at times) Not long back Target (I don't know if you have that there) were selling the whole series for like $9.95 each!!
Or you CAN get one video store to bring in videos from another video store if that particular store doesn't have it.
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