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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Does anyone know where I can get information about Earthforce uniforms, rank insignia, service bars, shoulder patches, etc.?

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

I seem to recall that a lot of that information was available in a (possibly official) book called the "Babylon 5 Security Manual." Kind of a tech manual for B5. I've never looked through it much, aside from one time when I borrowed a copy from a friend to get some precise measurements on the size of the station and of the habitat cylinders.

If you're looking for internet resources, I really don't know for certain.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
I seem to recall that a lot of that information was available in a (possibly official) book called the "Babylon 5 Security Manual."

I've heard about that. Unfortunatley I can't order it from Amazon.com, 'cos I don't have a credit card. Amazon.co.uk says it's out of stock and Amazon.de doesn't have it.

quote:
If you're looking for internet resources, I really don't know for certain.

Yeah, that's my problem.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

I have it. When I get home from the wedding on Monday or Tuesday, I'll compile tha ish for you.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I don't know if it helps, but this store has the book. I bought all my Trek books from this shop, and have had no problems with them.

I don't know if they ship to Austria, or how much that would cost, but at least they have the book.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
I have it. When I get home from the wedding on Monday or Tuesday, I'll compile tha ish for you.

Ok, thx.

quote:
I don't know if they ship to Austria

They do but I'd have to pay a fee of 10 Euro just for the money transfer. [Mad]

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

*beats Shik to it* [Smile]

Uniform
The uniforms on the station have changed a few times since we went on-line (due to the breakaway from Earth, the war, etc). Full schematics on the uniforms can be downloaded from the computer. You will be expected to be familiar with these.

The basic uniform jacket has leather on the right front panel, collar, and cuffs, although some tunics do not have leather at all. There are bronze clamps on the left shoulder (e.g., a Starfury patch) and a unit badge on the right. An EA command patch with your name on it is worn on the left breast )and, where appropriate, any off-world patch).

Command staff memmbers, such as the chief of Security, wear a mainly black uniform given as a gift by the Minbari. It is made of various materials. The stitching on the front panel is Zirka thread. Zirka thread is derived from a rare Minbari plant; the inclusion of it in a gift of clothing is a rare honor. Zirka thread produces a mild allergic reaction in eighy percent of Humans. Due to cutbacks in the system, officers will be expected to pay for the fitting and upkeep of their own uniforms.

The dress uniform has no leather on the jacket panel. Variations include silver piping on jacketg sleeves.

The combat uniform is worn beneath a grey or black flak jacket designed to dissipate the impact of energy weapons.

Uniform Colors
Blue................EarthForce space forces
Green/brown.........Earthforce Marines (surface division)
Grey................Security officers
Charcoal............Medical
Light grey..........Prison
Black...............Psi Corps
Yellow..............Station techs, maintenance crews (not part of the EA)

The Earth Alliance symbol (EA command badge/patch) is a stylized EA in silhouette, and then altered within the lines to accomodate different divisions-Command has crosshatching, Secury has a gun sight, and technicians (electricians) a lightning strike. These are worn on the left chest, directly over the stat bar.

Stat Bars
These are bars of colored metal worn beneath the EA badge on the left breast. The color indicates the "status" of the wearer, not the rank (which is indicated by bars on the epaulettes).

Gold............Command
Silver..........Command staff
Silver/gold.....Station executive officer (second in command)
Red.............Medical
Green...........Security
Yellow..........Sciences
Blue............Pilots

Also on the right shoulder of Starfury squad members is a winged planet emblem, a five-pointed command insignia circled by red and gold and overlaid with gold wings over the pilot's name.

You will be expected to remember the following ranks in the station, denoted by their badges:

General (joint chiefs).....Five "stars" om a circle
General....................Polygon, one bronze bar, two stylized stars
Colonel....................Silver bird
Major......................Three diamond shapes
Captain....................Two diamond shapes
Lieutenant.................One diamond shape
Chief warrant officer......One diamond shape with oblique black stripe areas
Admiral....................Polygon and three bronze stars
Captain....................Polygon and two bronze stars
Commander..................Polygon and one bronze star
Lieutenant Commander.......Polygon and one silver bar
Ensign.....................Bronze star

That's all that's in the security manual on uniforms.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Thank you very much. Unfortunately some things aren't explained like NCO rank insignia or the different sizes of the stat bars.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

You cock-man oppressor!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Admiral?

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

The rank of Admiral within EarthForce was mentioned a few times in the first season, and completely abandoned afterwards.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

What I want to know is how the naval and army rank structures work together - who outranks who?

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Actually, thats an interesting question isn't it?
How do naval and army command (and air force for that matter) structures mesh together in real life, for that matter?

I imagine Gropos would have interesting observations on the subject in B5, although I haven't seen that episode in loooong time. Looks like I'll need to get the Season 2 DVDs to continue my collection, when they come out as well [Wink]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

In real life there is a very simple list of grades. In B5, your guess is as good as mine. Captain Sheridan seemed to take his orders exclusively from generals. (Well, generals and half-baked alien mystics.)

Posted by Herr Kapitan Mike (Member # 709) on :

for the record, the real life grades:

NAVAL	PAY GRADE	ARMY
Ensign (one stripe)	O-1	Second Lieutenant (bronze bar)
Junior Lieutenant (one and a half stripe)	O-2	First Lieutenant (silver bar)
Lieutenant (two stripes)	O-3	Captain (double bars)
Lieutenant Commander (two and a half stripes)	O-4	Major (bronze leaf)
Commander (three stripes)	O-5	Lieutenant Colonel (silver leaf)
Captain (four stripes)	O-6	Colonel (eagle)
Commodore (one star)	O-7	Brigadier (one star)
Rear Admiral (two stars)	O-8	Major General (two star)
Vice Admiral (three stars)	O-9	Lieutenant General (three star)
Admiral (four stars)	O-10	General (four star)
Fleet Admiral (five stars)	O-11	Commander General (five star)

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

And that big giant space is in there because....?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Spoiler space.

For the War on Terror.

Posted by Herr Kapitan Mike (Member # 709) on :

i wrote a table.. i have no idea why the board did that to it, i didnt add any unusual code, i tired of trying to edit it after three or four times and went to bed and dreamed about going to work.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

http://www.st-spike.de/pages/nontrek/ea.htm
Ok, that's what I have so far.

Does anyone have B5 episodes on tape?
I'd like to know some things:

1.) Episode "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"? What did Garibaldi's rank pin look like? IIRC he was identified as Chief Warrant Officer in this episode.
2.) Episode "GROPOS". What did General Franklin's rank insignia look like? Any information about the enlisted rank insignia?
3.) Episode "Exogenesis". What did Corwin's rank insignia look like before and after his promotion to full Lt.

[ March 21, 2003, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Spike ]

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I have all these eps on tape (annoyingly - what do I do now they're appearing on DVD, and I'm about to get a PC with a DVD drive?), and, if I have time tomorrow (people who are buying our house are coming round at some point) I'll try to look. . . but I can't promise anything even then, as I never was good at spotting the insignia. 8)

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

1.) Episode "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"? What did Garibaldi's rank pin look like? IIRC he was identified as Chief Warrant Officer in this episode.

3.) Episode "Exogenesis". What did Corwin's rank insignia look like before and after his promotion to full Lt.

Not answers. but anyway...

1/ I'd imagine exactly the same as it looks for the rest of the series.

3/ I noticed that Corwin had the leather strap on his uniform in season 3, but not in 2, so I always assumed that only full lieutenants and above got the leather strap. But rewatching it, he actually has it in season 3 episodes before his promotion, so, er, the darkness consumes the candle that burns in our souls. Shadowy. And stuff.

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

1. When Garibaldi is wearing his dress uniform, he still has the same insignia, which is just the polygon closest to the collar and nothing else.

2. Franklin's insignia looks to have a rather large polygon and two bars, which looks similar to Sheridan's. He has the stat bar with a star, however it's all silver.

3. Doesn't look like I have "Exogensis" on tape. [Frown]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Thx for the information.

quote:
Originally posted by Topher:
[QB] 1. When Garibaldi is wearing his dress uniform, he still has the same insignia, which is just the polygon closest to the collar and nothing else.

That's what he has in Season 1 too. Just the small brass polygon. But on this picture it appears that the wears the small brass one and a large silver polygon
http://www.scifinuts.com/images/b5/gari.jpg

quote:
2. Franklin's insignia looks to have a rather large polygon and two bars, which looks similar to Sheridan's. He has the stat bar with a star, however it's all silver.

And the polygon and the bars are silver too?

IIRC General Lefcourt from the B5 movie "In the Beginning" also had one polygon and 2 bars but there were stars on the bars.

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

The bars look to be silver, but the polygon was brass, I think. I'll have to look again when I get home.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

re: unknown shoulder patch 3...

I'm trying to remember what department they were said to be with... Office of Presidential Security, or some such.

--Jonah

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
How do naval and army command (and air force for that matter) structures mesh together in real life, for that matter?

It's no big deal really. The Navy uses it's own rank system while the Army/Marines/Air Force use the other system. The Coast Guard also uses a Navy rank system. While at Corry Station every military branch and the Coast Guard (which is technically the Department of Transportation) was there. If you have a Navy captain and a Marine captain it doesn't matter, the Navy capt. outranks the Marine officer because their capt. is the equivilent of a Navy lieutenant. Now if you had a Navy capt. and a Marine colonel then it would depend which officer held that rank longer to determine who outranks who.

As for B5 ranks ... I never got that. I think they just pulled out both rank systems and put them together. Which would be fine if they simply did stuff like replace admiral with general.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

yeah.. the conversion chart was posted by moi, last page.

of course, the rank system being skewed could be a side effect of time and combination with other militaries.. no doubt the US or British system might change depending on the needs/requirements of the Earthforce heirarchy.. they dont seem to be as divided down army/navy lines as the armed forces today.. and remember that a lot of ranks we know are the result of restructuring of ancient systems.. the rank of 'commander' was one of the last ones created, as of only a few hundred years ago, there were just various degrees of lieutenant and captain.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I've been thinking a bit about this. . . The ranks that I know we saw on the show were, in likely order of seniority:

Generals (various)
Colonels
Captains (naval)
Majors
Commanders
Lieutenant Commanders
Lieutenants (various)
Ensigns
Other Ranks

It's tricky. . . Colonel Ben-Zayne definitely outranked a Commander, yet Major 'Older Braxton' (I forget his name) seemed to be roughly equal to a (naval) Captain - he didn't defer to Sheridan nor order him about; and, he was friends with the Captain of the Clarkstown which suggests a potential closeness in age or rank. The situation is, however, the same with Major Krantz, in charge of B4 - he seemed roughly equal to Commander Sinclair.

Interesting how Major Ryan (I looked it up this time) was the effective second-in-charge on the Alexander: it looked like General Hague was the captain of the ship, with a Major as his exec (thereby removing the need to have a Captain-in-fact and a Captain-by-rank on the same ship).

I think the choice to make Ben-Zayne a Colonel was a clever one: given EarthForce is on the whole more of a Naval organisation, with GROPOs the marines, there probably aren't a lot of Colonels - and those there are would all be waiting to make General. So if Arichops felt that commanding B5 would ensure his step-up to General, it would explain his mental state.

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

I always got the impression that Major Krantz deferred to Sinclair in "Babylon Squared"... but then, Krantz was a weenie.

It's also interesting to note that while the rank of Admiral was mentioned (albeit only once), Ivanova was definitely in the "naval" service and ended up as a General. She also went from Commander to Captain, bypassing Major.

I think that the ranks of Colonel and Major are actually supposed to be primarily the ground service officers, in a partially-separated structure. Generals in EarthForce have authority over both the EarthForce Marines and the EarthForce Navy, but from there on down the command structure is separate.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

Yeah, but Ryan wore navy Blue. . . Krantz is easy enough, he was in security Grey.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Krantz wore brown.

IIRC JMS once said that the space forces (blue uniforms) are a combined service of Navy and Air Force. That would explain why General Hague and Major Ryan wore blue uniforms. Of course it doesn't explain why Ivanova was promoted from Captain to General.

It could also be an error, considering other uniforms goofs. Krantz should have worn the old uniform from the B5 pilot movie and in the TV movie "In the Beginning", which was set during the Minbari war, they wore the new uniforms from Babylon 5's second season.

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

So he did. My memory seems to have turned monochrome. Next thing you know I'll be remembering him in a hat and calling people 'doll' a lot. 8)

The need for a Colonel rank for ground forces makes sense, especially if there were no GROPO captains, only Majors and below. . . Not sure what would happen if a Colonel transferred divisions for some reason (it seems unlikely however), I guess he'd become a Captain. The whole situation would be a lot easier if Ryan had been a Commander or even a Captain. . . Or had had a brown uniform on!

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

I'd think that transferring between ground and space divisions would happen only rarely. For one thing, there's a whole lot of different training required. I suppose that EarthForce could include some cross-training programs, but that seems more of a waste of efficiency.

I forgot that Krantz wore brown... didn't General Richard Franklin and his aide also wear brown? Perhaps:

Blue = Space Navy
Grey = Space Combat/Security
Brown = Ground Combat

Interestingly, I seem to recall that ALL of the dress uniforms (Sinclair and Sheridan especially) and most of the General uniforms were grey...

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

Do we know what rank General Franklin's aide was?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
didn't General Richard Franklin and his aide also wear brown?

Yes, they were "Marines".

quote:
Interestingly, I seem to recall that ALL of the dress uniforms (Sinclair and Sheridan especially) and most of the General uniforms were grey...

Not as blue as the standard uniform but still blue:
http://home.arcor.de/spike730/b5dressuniform.jpg

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

Ivanova's uniform as a general in "Sleeping In Light" was a quite grey version of the dress uniform.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:

It could also be an error, considering other uniforms goofs. Krantz should have worn the old uniform from the B5 pilot movie and in the TV movie "In the Beginning", which was set during the Minbari war, they wore the new uniforms from Babylon 5's second season.

There's confusing use of punctuation marks there, but I think you mean that both "Babylon Squared" and "In the Beginning" used the "leather strap" version of the uniform, introduced in "Midnight on the Firing Line", as oppossed to the earlier version seen in "The Gathering". As far as I recall, the uniforms stayed the same at the start of the second season (or maybe the badges changed. I can't quite remember).

Anyway, considering that this "mistake" has been done at least twice, I'd tend to consider that "The Gathering" was the mistake with regards to uniforms, and that EA uniforms DID have leather straps before B5 was built. Maybe there was a galactic wide leather shortage, and the uniforms seen in "The Gathering" were a temporary remedy.

Or perhaps the same wierd parralex distruption beam that caused Delenn to look Really Fucking Weird also caused the uniforms to look different.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
As far as I recall, the uniforms stayed the same at the start of the second season

Well, I'm not sure if the change happened in season 2 but there were differences between the later uniforms and the season 1 uniforms.

The leather parts got a red border, a fighter pilot badge was added, and the leather part on the sleeve was changed.

http://home.arcor.de/spike730/uniformseason1.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/spike730/uniformseason2.jpg

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

Hey Spike, how come some of your images are vertically stretched?

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

I don't know. At first I thought Power DVD caused this interesting "effect" but my TNG captures are ok. Maybe something's wrong with the B5 DVDs.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

it would really be hard to resize the pics though, lending to this lengthy discussion.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

You're right, I forgot about the wings being added.

As for why the images are stretched, WinDVD always stretches mine sideways when I take a grab. As Mike said, if only there were some way of resizing a picture...

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Watching "GROPOS" last night, I see that General Richard "Firestorm" Franklin & his aide (the ubiquitous "Frank") both wore olive drab.

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
You're right, I forgot about the wings being added.

As for why the images are stretched, WinDVD always stretches mine sideways when I take a grab. As Mike said, if only there were some way of resizing a picture...

That's easy!

b5dressuniform.jpg
uniformseason1.jpg

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I was being ever so slightly sarcastic.

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
I was being ever so slightly sarcastic.

I know, but I had nothing better to do.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

No, I mean I was being sarcastic that altering image size is a hard thing to do, not that altering them isn't useful. Cos it is. Useful.

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

No sweat.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Hello, all.

I'm new to this forum and signed up after reading this post on EarthForce uniforms. I am a big fan of B5 and hope to help here. Besides, I've admired Spike's Starfleet uniform work for awhile now.

quote:
Per Spike:
Does anyone know where I can get information about Earthforce uniforms, rank insignia, service bars, shoulder patches, etc.?

Other than the B5 security manual, which someone has already suggested-- another good source is the long, since out-of-print EarthForce Sourcebook for the RPG (it had great pictures and descriptions for EarthForce ranks and such).

Another is this site (with direct link to EF ranks):
web page

quote:
Commodore (one star)

Re: This rank.

In the USN, the rank of Commodore is now defunct and not active. It has since been changed to Rear Admiral, lower half-- while Rear Admiral is now Rear Admiral, upper half. (It is, however, still active in the Royal Navy.)

This rank has never been seen in EarthForce or mentioned to the best of my knowledge.

For a real life military look at ranks, here is a good link: (this is a US oriented site)
web page

Re: the vaugeness of rank.

quote:
per: Vogan Poet. It's tricky. . . Colonel Ben-Zayne definitely outranked a Commander, yet Major 'Older Braxton' (I forget his name) seemed to be roughly equal to a (naval) Captain - he didn't defer to Sheridan nor order him about; and, he was friends with the Captain of the Clarkstown which suggests a potential closeness in age or rank.

It also might have to do with the military tradition of senority, when someone achieved their rank. If you have two military commissioned officers of the same (or equavilant) rank, one will defer to the one who was promoted first to said rank. It's a tradition that is usually ignored in most SF TV, especially in Star Trek.

Re: EF Uniform styles from "The Gathering" to B5 seasons 1 and 2, and their apperances in "ItB, "B2," and "War Without End, 1 and 2."

In the pilot movie, the EF uniforms were without the leather strip. Sinclair and Takashima wore the EF blues, while Dr. Kyle wore a charcole-blue color for medical(as mentioned by JMS in a usenet post, which I cannot find at this time. The said charcole color really didn't look all that different from the EF blues, only in a few shots). Those uniforms had red piping along the colors and epulates. Garabaldi wore EF security grey with a black color and greenish (or grey?) piping.

My theory on why they weren't used in "B2," all had season 1-style uniforms with the leather strip (no arm band, leather cuffs and no red piping). While "In the Beginning," had the season-2 style of leather strip and arm band with red piping:

I figure that these uniforms were Class-B's, while the season-1 style was a varient on the Class-B's and the season-2 style was Class-A's (which is why we see them more often).

Another quark from "The Gathering" is the different style rank insigna that does not match the series. (of course, that's because it was a different costume designer, but who's talking real life).

But that doesn't solve the Dress uniform changes from pilot to season 1 to season 2. That's another story.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Welcome to Flare. Though I can't help but point out that posting a link to the Defense Department's homepage in an effort to demonstrate U.S. military ranks is like giving someone directions to San Francisco that consist of "Go to Earth, and look in the Western Hemisphere."

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Thanks for the welcome.

For another more-specific site, per Sol's request:
web page

I can not help but point out that one could always use google (or the DOD's search engine)to find out more about ranks, or where in the western hemisphere San Francisco is.

Or just follow the signs, there you might be able to find a pair of humpback whales named "George and Gracie."

Simple logic.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Not to drag this on to unamusing lengths but if we're going to go to the trouble of providing links at all, we might as well be specific.
Also, I was perhaps making with the jape, you see.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Sol,

quote:
Not to drag this on to unamusing lengths but if we're going to go to the trouble of providing links at all, we might as well be specific.
Also, I was perhaps making with the jape, you see.

Indeed. The devil is in the details. And you perhaps missed my jape.

Middy Seafort

Now, back to your regular forum.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

hell, even my site has a rank page kicking around:

http://www.captainmike.org/Galactopedia/insignia.html

note the large chart comparing US insignia with Trek designs, but also that on the far right there is an infantry system comparison.

[grr.. note also the intermittent Yahoo! failures]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Hey, uh, that Bajoran system is taken directly from my site. It would have been kinda nice if you asked first, but at this point all I'll really ask is that you credit me for the system (since it's speculative) and credit Robert B. K. Brown for the images.

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

oh man.. yeah.. i was wondering where i got that from.

that was a page i had backed up online when my last computer tanked and i never recovered a link where it came from.

sorry.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Capt. Mike,

Just wanted to say I really liked the rank page on your site-- very informative. I especially liked the speculative rank braid for the early Star Fleet uniforms seen in "The Cage" and WNMHGB. Where, if I may ask, did you derive that system? Or, rather, how did you come up with it?

Middy Seafort

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Mike: No problem, just be sure to add the credits. Thanks. [Smile]

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

i'm trying to update my page right now.. apparently half of Yahoo! hosting is down til monday but i can still get to my site, just not through a certain url/

"The Cage" rank system i came up with, speculativly to try to explain why everybody from Lieutenant through Commander all had the same thing: one stripe.. i think that the alternating gold/silver system would be a good explanation..

now if i could just figure a good way that they determined their NCO ratings from ensigns!

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Hello, all.

I found that JMS post regarding the pilot uniforms.

For you enjoyment and reference:

quote:
The command level uniforms (Sinclair, Laurel, Garibaldi) are pretty much
the same in cut, though Garibaldi's (and all of securityard grey more than
blue. Medical uniforms have a somewhat different cut and lean toward charcoal
grey.

There's a slightly different cut for grunt-level security, and a slightly
greener look. Station techs (maintainance crews and the like) generally get
yellow outfits with the B5 logo (and are not directly part of the EA
structure; they work at and for the station per se). Control techs, in the
observation dome, for instance, generally don't wear jackets on duty, but
rather shirts with the B5 logo. The shift commander, though, does wear a
jacket with his uniform. (When B5 opens, you see Laural give a command to the
shift commander, who then relays it to others. You can trace the line of
command in the dome from there.)

There are, and will be, other variations in uniform, but those are pretty
much the ones you'll see in the show. (In addition, of course, to more
conventional clothing such as that worn by casino workers, marked only by a
glitter-B5 logo.)

jms
(From Genie, not Usenet as previously mentioned. Dated 28 January 1993)

Capt. Mike,
Yes, how did Starfleet of the TOS area recognize NCO's from Ensigns-- perhaps the cut of their uniform?

Middy Seafort

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

The haircuts.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Or the same way that First Officer's in 2265 managed to tell Chief Petty Officer's and lieutenants apart. They didn't.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Yes.. it must be the haircuts. For men, the shorter or longer the pointy-sideburns and the higher the beehive 'do for the women!

Or we could just give into reality, Gene thought only officers would ever serve on Starships and that Starfleet was too good to have NCO's in the '60s. Well, he put it in more diplomatic terms than I did in the "Making of Star Trek."

Middy Seafort

Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :

hm i was almost onto something when i realized that Nurse Chapel, who had 'signed aboard' from private research (i.e. not completing Academy training officer school) was a NCO, and had a colored collar instead of a black collar. But then i realized the Yeoman Rand (who didn't become an officer until sometime after TMP, when she was a chief, after '10 years' of service) should have been a noncom also, and had a black collar.. mustve been the beehive

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Actually, I believe it was established that Chapel is an officer (if it were the real military than she bypassed the academy by going to Officer's Canidacy School). Her rank of Lieutenant, I believe, was seen on her ID card in an episode of the animated adventures. After all, she had a Ph.D. when she joined up with the Enterprise. She eventually got her M.D. and was promoted to Lt. Commander.

But if you notice, the women had different cuts of collar (perhaps to denote officer or non-com?).

But what about EarthForce, how do they tell non-com from officers.

The easy answer, the leather strap down the middle of the uniform; however, Lt. Corwin didn't have a leather strap for the first season and was reffered to as "Lieutenant." Maybe non-coms, Ensigns, 2nd Lts, all share the same cut of uniform until they rise in rank.

Hmmm.

Middy Seafort

[ March 05, 2003, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Middy Seafort ]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Except that Corwin didn't have his strap in season 2, but did in season 3, even before he got promoted.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Psy,

quote:
Except that Corwin didn't have his strap in season 2, but did in season 3, even before he got promoted.

Indeed. I miss remembered. Odd, costuming errors and deviations can sure mess up someone who's trying to be as accurate on uniform protocal and all.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Speaking of that promotion, I just watched it before I went to work earlier. Interesting to note that in S2 "And Now For A Word," when Cynthia Torquemann interviewed Corwin, it said he was a 2LT, yet in S3 "Exogenesis" when he was promoted, he went from LTJG to full LT. And all with the blue uni.

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Um... Okay...

Wierd. Second Lieutenant is an Army rank. Nominally equivalent to a Naval Ensign, but etymologically equivalent to a Naval Junior Grade Lieutenant. I figure the reporter was just stupid when it came to ranks, and Corwin was the LtJG she was trying to come up with...

--Jonah

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Router hiccuped and this got double-posted. Sorry.

--Jonah

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Peregrinus:
I figure the reporter was just stupid when it came to ranks, and Corwin was the LtJG she was trying to come up with...

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. The reporter did get some things wrong, like Ivonova's name.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Pere,

quote:
Um... Okay...

Wierd. Second Lieutenant is an Army rank. Nominally equivalent to a Naval Ensign, but etymologically equivalent to a Naval Junior Grade Lieutenant. I figure the reporter was just stupid when it came to ranks, and Corwin was the LtJG she was trying to come up with...

--Jonah

Indeed. JMS said that EF Space Forces were a combo of Navy and Air Force; and in the USAF 2nd LT is a rank. But the etymology is still correct in any case.

quote:
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. The reporter did get some things wrong, like Ivonova's name. (from PsyLiem)

Agreed. I just finished a stint in broadcast television and reporters constantly FUBAR'd military ranks.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :

Ohh-ho, boy... I wince every time I see a reporter so obviously non-versed in militaria get some operational or organizational term incredibly wrong. I think the worst was an interviewer who called a Marine Colonel "Captain", thinking the Marines use Naval ranks (as related in a later apology).

--Jonah

Posted by buffyslilhelper (Member # 956) on :

[spam nuked]

[ January 06, 2003, 10:39: Message edited by: Charles Capps ]

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Hey, Spike...

Any updates to the Earthforce Uniform Guide?

Middy Seafort

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Not recently. I'm waiting for the release of Season 2 to get more information.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

I look forward to it, when you get it finished, Spike.

Thanks for the update. I also hope the info I posted regarding the "Gathering" uniforms was also helpful.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Hey, Spike.

I know you're probably swamped with many projects, but I found a bit of useful information regarding EF uniforms while searching through a box of magazines. What follows comes from the December 1999 Babylon 5/Crusade magazine and is by producer John Copeland:

quote:
...the ranking system was kind of created by Joe, and then we sort of worked (with continuity) an ongoing basis in the series.

It's really a blend of Navy and Air Force ranks, but we didn't adhere strictly to only US military rankings. We tried to throw a little wider loop with some ranks from world military organizations. The wings on the sleeves of the EarthForce blues is also a nod to other military organizations, which is quite common in some European groups.

So, I've listed the ranks in groupings as a breakdown. Each rank listed second or third is lower than the first, except for Admiral and General (i.e. Lieutneant Colonels are lower than Colonels.)

Admiral/General: They are of equal standing, however Admirals (and one reason we didn't see them) are fleet (as in Pacific Fleet, or Atlantic Fleet) commanders. Generals (at least in our series) tend to be involved still on a the tactical level. General Frankliin and General Hauge are two examples of tactical apperances on the show.

Colonels, Lt. Colonels, Majors: This is why Major Krantz outranked Sheridan, because Captains come next in the order.

Captain, Commander, Lt. Commander: The two commander ranks tuck back into the Naval system.

Lieutenant, 1st Lieutenant and Ensign: These are the next levels coming down the ladder.

Security Chief: (As in Garibaldi) Even though Garibaldi was really, technically, outside the military. We never really explored how EarthForce Security worked in tandem with the military. I have also thought they were like the Air Police or AirForce, but again we never set that in stone.

And then we go into the regular ranks. Our chevrons and all were based on the British versions. Some of our officers, like Maj. Krantz, wore British style pips of rank...

Hope that helps. It still, however, leaves a few questions upon further reflection. For example, the Majors being of higher rank than Captains. Then, why did Major Krantz (from "Babylon Squared," Copeland misremebers which Major came abord B5 in "Severed Dreams." That was Major Ryan) salute Commander Sinclair first upon common aboard B4. Traditionally, the lower rank officer salutes the higher ranking officer first, then the higher ranking officer returns the salute.

Oh, well... early episode mistakes like Spock's stripes in the first season of Trek. He was a Lt. Commander in then and had full Commander's stripes.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I was about to say! Sheridan and Krantz never met. . . and Krantz didn't even act all that superior to Sinclair. Although having had all sorts of flashbacks and flashforwards messing with your brain would upset anyone.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Thanks for that article. I get the impression that Copeland doesn't know what he's writing about.

He confuses Krantz with Ryan. He doesn't know that Garibaldi was referred to as Chief Warrant Officer. He doesn't mention the rank Lt. JG, which was used in B5 IIRC. Instead he mixes Army and Navy ranks (Lt., 1st Lt., Ensign). And I find it very odd that the Army ranks Colonel, Lt. Colonel, and Major are higher ranking than Capt., Cmdr., and Lt. Cmdr.

Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :

Especially as they're just the equivilents of each other. (in real life, that is)

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Of course, let's not forget that Ryan in "Severed Dreams" never really acted superior to Sheridan. There was no deferment to either Ryan or Sheridan. They seemed to treat each other on equal footing.

Also, even though we've seen mostly generals in EarthForce; there have to be Admirals, but not because Copeland says there are. There is evidence within the show itself.

In "And the Sky Full of Stars," Knight One says to Sinclair, "Good money had you'd make Admiral one day. What happen?"

Middy Seafort

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Middy Seafort:
Of course, let's not forget that Ryan in "Severed Dreams" never really acted superior to Sheridan. There was no deferment to either Ryan or Sheridan. They seemed to treat each other on equal footing.

My point exactly. There are enough inaccuracies in Copeland's list to make it dubious; I'm not going to see EA-Major as superior to EA-Captain just because he says so.

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

opps.. double post.

[ February 22, 2003, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Middy Seafort ]

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

I agree with you Vogan Poet. Despite JMS' assertation that Copeland was the "military expert," his breaking down of the ranks makes no sense military-wise. I grew up with the US Navy and have studied at great lenght the Royal Navy as a hobby, and the combined service of the EarthForce as John Copeland describes is non-sequitar IMHO.

It is, however, an interesting bit of information on the supposed canon of Babylon 5.

Middy Seafort

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

For one thing, in "Severed Dreams" Major Ryan basically deferred to Sheridan completely for tactical planning and the overall strategy. Like when they got the news that Clark was sending in the heavy reinforcements, Ryan offered to run and try to create a diversion. I don't think that something like that can be explained by Sheridan being military governor of local space.

I can't be bothered to check back over 6 pages worth of material, so this might have been mentioned before... but was the CO of the Hyperion in "A Voice in the Wilderness" a Captain? I remember there was a big fight over who had ultimate authority in certain situations... but it seems strange, regardless.

It makes little sense to have two concurrent rank systems get split apart and stacked on top of each other. I think that a continuing concurrence makes more sense... mostly. Actually, the first explanation, about Admirals and Generals, actually DOES make a bit of sense, IMO. Well, maybe. On second thought, the EarthForce Chief of Staff (Hague) was "only" a general, so I guess that nixes that. (Even more than that, why would a general, still involved in the tactics rather than the strategy, be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?)

Ergh... back to square one, mostly. [Wink]

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

I think the Hyperion's commander was a Captain. . . His attitude seemed to be a mix of "I outrank you" with "However, we're both commanding officers so I don't want to step on your toes too much."

Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :

Found a website with some good quality DVD screencaps from "The Gathering."

Here is the link:
Gathering Pics

There are a couple of good shots of the pilot varient of the EF uniforms, including a shot where you can tell Ben Kyle's jacket is a slightly different color from Sinclair's and Takashima's.

Middy Seafort

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

Gosh, Becky Murphy's site is stil going, excellent. 8)

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Does anyone know what the rank insignia of General O'Reilly ("Point of No Return) and General Lefcourt ("Endgame") look like?

Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :

http://www.jumpnow.de/images/season3/309/309_069.jpg

That who you mean? Try browsing the site (http://www.jumpnow.de/), it's quite good, I'd do it myself but 24 is about to start. 8)

Actually, here's the link for Endgame: http://www.jumpnow.de/images/pictures.php?season=4&episode=20&number=4

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
That who you mean?

I don't know. Probably. Just read in an episode guide that he was referred to as Lt. General.

quote:
Try browsing the site

Thanks, but unfortanetely there aren't good pictures of the ranks.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Is it just me, or did anyone else notice, that general stars look kinda weird? To don't appear to be symmetric.

Posted by RustiSwordz (Member # 1070) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Does anyone know where I can get information about Earthforce uniforms, rank insignia, service bars, shoulder patches, etc.?

www.b5tech.com [Big Grin]

Excellent site.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

The Thread That Will Not Die returns! Not to run the risk of driving away a newbie - and a Brit at that, there are far to few of us left round here - but given that site's quite well known, I'm sure Spike's checked it out. . . I think. . . Surely? 8(

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

Yes yes, I know, white beardy bloke + lightning. Moving on...

Do I have this right? I ask because I'm planning on uploading most of this to the B5 wiki and I hate when wikis use faulty information.

Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :

Now that that's out of the way, I'm not a B5 expert by any means, but that looks about right, I think. Nice work Rev, as always.

Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :

Sean, you love doing that way too much...

Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :

No he doesn't. It's perfectly normal. NORMAL I TELL YOU! *bites fingernails*

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I'm sure the novelty will wear off eventually, with luck before he goes blind.

Now, did I get it wrong or what?

Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :

I wish I could help here, but I honestly have no clue. The only thing I even remember about that was what Sheridan said to Lorien at Zha'ha'dum.

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

I've just been doing a little research and have already spotted a few mistakes. Ensign should be just the two gold poygons and so far it looks as if the Lt. & Lt.Cmdr. insignia are identical. Help?!

Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :

I guessing you've probably seen this, but this is the best I can come up with since I don't own the series. You'd think there'd be some decent screencaps somewhere!

http://www.dalefranks.com/ea/ - Has a flash presentation that lists all the ranks, including some you haven't done yet. It's slightly different than yours. He admits it's non-canonical, but also says it's as accurate as he can make it.

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

Yeah, I've seen it and it's not terribly accurate. Spike I think is the closest to being correct, but still not perfect.

P.S. clear your cache and reload the chart as I've uploaded a new version, hopefully a little better than it was.

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :

quote:
Originally posted by B.J.:
I wish I could help here, but I honestly have no clue. The only thing I even remember about that was what Sheridan said to Lorien at Zha'ha'dum.

Ah, yes....
"Thanks for saving my life, you sorry-ass duex ex machina character created to wrap up this storyline in the lamest way possible after JMS wrote himself into a corner....Thanks again lame ass, creepy motherfucker."

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :

Probably not a good idea to slag off Jack the Ripper to his face...just saying. [Wink]

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :

Well,. it's not like he was armed....
Besides, he could always have gotten that crazy guy that thought he was King Arthur to bodyguard him.

Or he could have waited 'till G'Kar was acting particularly fruity- that would scare off even the Shadows. (see Legend of the Rangers if you have a strong stomach for stupidity and a seriously effeminine G'Kar)

Or Sheridan could just use his Powerstunt of jerky, implausable dialogue to kill off any advasary.
FATALITY.