Hey, don't read this thread if you don't want to know what happens.
I'd heard this miniseries was gonna suck balls. But then it didn't, did it? I mean there was plenty of bad stuff, but there was a startling amount of really good stuff. I find myself actually very much anticipating the second half tomorrow.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
So far I've found it a big yawn. It was so low key I was ready to doze off.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
It does start a little slow, but I thought it picked up once the action started. My lists:
bad stuff: I have a strong objection to the terminology wherein Adama is so suspicious about 'networking' computer systems. Like a ship on the scale of Galactica could function without it's admittedly older computer systems talking to one another.
Character chemistry was frequently shaky. I suspect this could have been easily remedied with some rehersal time. But as it was you get the impression this is the first time many of these people have been in the same room. Apollo comes across as kind of a pussy.
Cylons emulating humans SO perfectly. How did they go from the big chrome mohawks to Terminator-13billion in forty years? Maybe this will be explained later, but it stretches credulity.
good stuff: Neato new vipers!! Why so shiny? Because they are museum pieces. Take that spoiler-sucking weathering junkies! I liked a lot of the CG ships. Could scarcely see the Battlestar, but it didn't just look like a pregnant gerbil.
Electronic warefare! Hey neato!
We like Mary McDonnell even though her boob is going to rot off.
This may sound weird coming from a straight guy, but I find that dude playing Starbuck kind of sexy. Well pretty much everyone is sexy. Mmmm, cylon girl. Come, let me betray my military secrets.
Akwardly technical dialogue earns big points (though my friends made fun of the fact they used 'gimbal' 7 or 8 times in one scene). No, but it makes it feel like they spent a little time researching A) military protocol, B) the science behind this fiction. Which definately lends a flavor.
Baltar didn't stick it to the old lady. Nice curveball. I like that the other guy gives up his seat too. That was even cooler.
Everyone gets blowed up. This is super cool. I love it when the world ends. Would have liked to have seen some of the instruments of their destruction, but I did think it was super cool.
questions:Is the baby in cylon-girl's lunch box? The show is cooler if she didn't eat the baby.
What did the rest of you think?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've seen a few episodes of the original "Galactica," but not all. I've always thought that the original concept was very interesting, but never properly realized because of budgets and campy-ness. But the mood of this show, with the sense of impending doom, not to mention the awesome special effects (and the believable use of nukes rather than silly strafing fighters) just scared the heck out of me.
The special effects in this show are nothing short of awesome. I was really excited back when I first read the pitch/introduction from Ron Moore about what he wanted to achieve with a "Galactica" remake -- including stuff about redefining the effects. I think they've done an incredible job -- even though they're not really revolutionary at all in terms of the method, it's the style that really caught my eye.
Of course, a lot of that is mainly because CGI can allow for lots of debris and other cool stuff that couldn't really be done with older methods. But regardless, all the exploding and drifting wreckage, the bodies, and the wavering points of view really created some excellent effects.
Okay, so I've got a few problems with the story:
What was the purpose of Number Six boarding the Armistice Station and scaring the heck out of that bureaucrat? I know that the "new" Cylons are supposed to be able to download their consciousnesses when their body is destroyed... but why go to the extra trouble of boarding the station in the first place?
As Balaam said, Apollo is a pussy. I don't understand how he could make it through the military with such a chip on his shoulder and such misplaced anger?
The use of the Galactica's FTL drive at the end of the first part strongly implies that all of the twelve colonies are supposed to be in one solar system. But twelve habitable planets (or maybe with a few habitable moons circling gas giants) in one system? Somehow that stretches credibility for me -- though I suppose it's possible.
Despite the fact that I miss the presence of a villain that you can really love to hate (like the campy but imposing original Baltar), this new Baltar seems like an interesting character.
quote:This may sound weird coming from a straight guy, but I find that dude playing Starbuck kind of sexy.
Um... Starbuck was a girl in this movie. Didn't you get that memo? People have been complaining about that for months now.
Other points:
-- I disagree with Balaam about the not-networking-computers bit. Considering that the Cylons seem to be much more intelligent warriors in this film, employing electronics and computerized warfare (which would be natural for them anyway), they need to limit the potential spread of any form of virus or other attack. Yeah, it's inconvenient -- which is exactly why the more recent generations got lax in their electronic defenses and used many more networked computers.
-- The baby. Um, I'm pretty sure that Cylon Girl actually snapped the baby's neck. Didn't you hear that sick cracking sound?
-- We actually DID see a few Cylon base-stars way in the distance in one of those long shots of wreckage surrounding Caprica. I think it was a shot when Boomer's ship was drifting in unpowered for the final approach to the planet.
-- Something that could/should have been explained better is how/why the Galactica was able to survive a direct hit from a nuke. For the technical minded, it's obvious that (1) it was a lower-yield nuke for ship-to-ship combat, and (2) a great deal of the damage from a nuke inside an atmosphere is from the pressure wave, and so a ship in vacuum "only" absorbs the energy directly. That could have been made a bit clearer, though -- IMO.
-- I absolutely loved the way they managed a few subtle tips of the hat to the original show -- like the original Cylon centurion as a museum piece, or the original theme tune playing over the decommissioning ceremony's flyby.
-- Considering the Cylon's attack on the President's ship (not to mention the endemic ship failures throughout the Colonial fleet) in the first part, I think it's obvious that the Cylons are hacked into the human comm traffic. So why the frack are they broadcasting their shuttle's identity as "Colonial One"? (Of course they're not dead; Apollo did something with those electronic whatzamajiggers to simulate a nuke detonation and get them off the trail.)
Overall, I'm definitely looking forward to Part Two! Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I'm in the same boat as MM, having seen only a handful of the original series. But I very much liked what I saw last night. It definitely portrays a feeling of loss that was missing in the series.
I liked the new Vipers, but what I liked even better was the fact that they ended up being expensive cannon fodder! Looks like they're stuck with the old Mark II.
The President's swearing in ceremony looked a lot like swearing in LBJ after JFK's assassination, with everyone cramped in together. They did this on B5 too, but it still works here.
The baby killing really disturbed me, mainly because I have a 3 year old of my own and another on the way.
Anyone else notice the Star Trek references? They could have been a coincidence, but with Ron Moore there, I doubt it. They woman's lottery number was 47, and one of the other civilian ships was numbered 1701.
I think this miniseries works really well. They even cover over a lot of the technical holes from the original series, like why they use antiquated technology. So, given the pacing so far, does anybody else smell regular series?
B.J.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Something else I remembered mentioning to my wife when I first heard it - The sound of the Cylon fighters reminded me of K.I.T.T.'s "driving" sound from Knight Rider. This would not suprise me if they did this intentionally since Glen Larson created both. (Of course, they both have the red "eyeball" too, but so did the original Cylons.)
Also, did the Cylons use missiles exclusively, or did I miss something? The Colonials seemed to use guns exclusively.
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Initial impressions: I really liked the visual effects in places- Caprica from orbit after the nuking was extremely well done and the new Galactica was acutally very well shot to look good (and I hate the design!). Considering taht the Galactica is aincent and about to be decommisoned, I was suprisd to see the wreck of the same CGI model in Caprica's orbit when Boomer is "gliding" toward it in the raptor.
The cylon woman is just pointless: she's not a good actress, and the glowing spine thing is just ridiculous: what a terrible feature for an undercover agent! Am I the only one that thinks the Cylon woman looks like a (slightly) cleaned up Courtney Love? This just reenforces my theory that the Cylons killed Kurt Cobain.
Still, I didint hate it and I thought I would but despite a good acting job from both Olmos and his "XO" but I really didint feel any "like" either between the characters for for them personally and watching the original version I noticed the freindship between characters immeadeately while the new version is just about everyone screwing each other or having a giant chip on their shoulder.
The sacrifice of Boomer's partner was VERY lame: He just gives up his seat (and thus his life) with no internal satruggle? It's like the guy was just waiting to give up his life. "Hmmmm who in the crowd is worth dying for....hey, Baltar!" Ug.
After watching last night's episode, I watched the original TV movie and I noticed a lot of things there that would have made the current series much better: Firstly, part of the appeal of the original BSG was that the twelve colonies were more advanced both morally (in general) and technologically than we are. Last night's premiere showed what we'll be like within 100 years at best: in many ways, none of the characters is remotely likable (except mabye Baltar). The 70's show had a kind of psydo-mystical mythology to it that made learning their terms and history intresting but that's all been thrown out the airlock now: the newcharacters even use current era terminologies, inflections and curses- those were all creativly subbed in with terms like "feldercarb" instead of "bullshit". THe only visually disapointing thing about the premiere was that in the 70's version, the cylons send a whole armada to wipe out the colonies, but last night, the Cylons only sent what? Six fighters that we saw? It seemed too easy for them to defeat all of humanity and 120 battlestars, all their fighters and whatever system defenses there might have been. Even Wolf 359 seemed like more of a struggle.
So far, it's pretty but about the same quality of stort as "Wing Commander" was. Still, I'll watch tonight's episode and judge the two parter as a whole. I'm hopful we'll see some kind of directed attack instead of a few fighters attacking in sets of two in tonight's episode: an Imperious Leader issuing directives would be nice. I cant believe all the cylons are just acting independantly after making an attack plan.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: -- I disagree with Balaam about the not-networking-computers bit.
Perhaps I should have explained more fully. My objection was to the idea that Adama shuns networked computers entirely and absolutely. Which maybe he's referring to NetWork� brand computers, but it's kind of unclear and I found it highly discordant in a program which has obviously explored the technical aspects of their show. Because without lowercase, conceptual networks Adama wouldn't really have a bridge anymore would he? I can understand the cylons hacking the Baltar-designed network defense protocol, maybe some incredibly advanced and ubiquitous 802.11x/UltraVioletTooth wireless or something. But then hard-wired networks isolated and ignorant of that protocol ought ought to be mostly alright. I just have a problem with the idea that you could realistically run a vessel of that size without using any networked systems. Because that would be more or less impossible, you see?
Given the writer's attention to detail with regards to so many other aspects of the show, I'm guessing this was more an imposed dumbing-down from some other quarter that thought the public would find all this too confusing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have a problem with their printers using old 1970's form feed paper.
Oh, that's right! Cylons could hack a laserjet!
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Just to warn you all. I've never seen the original Battlestar Galactica, in fact my only contact with anything of the kind was an old shoot-them up shareware game.
That said, although I did hear about all the doom and gloom about the show, it really seemed not that bad. Although to quote Philip J. Fry, some parts are aptly described as "that seemed unnecessary" i.e. most scenes with that Cylon woman or that gimball conversation
Man there are a lot of familar faces here from the genre. That agent guy from Psi Factor, Kurdy's dead girlfriend from Jeremiah, that Valhalla Sector Milhaven boss, and that woman from Donnie Darko.
Having only seen the first part, so whats the deal with these 12 colonies and Earth? Is this some parallel evolution thing? Long lost colony?
I rather liked the old technology...at least on the BG. Not knowing what the deal is between them and Earth, it does look dramatically different from the overly glossy look of Enterprise or the art-deco gone haywire Andromeda. And it certainly doesn't look as out-of-place as the ST Insurrection joystick or the Delta flyer. When the look is consistently retro, I can accept it and move on. Just as we accept the lack of safety handrails in SW Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
What's the deal with the Twelve Colonies and Earth? Well, the miniseries unfortunately removed the grand introductory voiceover that really set the tone for the series. (Of course, it also was kinda over-the-top in a few places, too...)
"There are those who believe... that life here... began out there. Far across the universe. With tribes of humans... who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians... or the Toltecs... or the Mayans... that they may have been the architects of the Great Pyramids... or the lost civilizations of Lemuria... or Atlantis... Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man... who even now fight to survive... far, far away amongst the stars..." -- read by Patrick Macnee
Does that help? Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Kinda. So this is kind of a spin on the Stargate idea? Instead of humans being abducted by aliens to other planets, and us being inspired/slaved to build ancient monuments. BG has humans coming here, building ancient monuments and leaving a few of them/us stranded, and devolving technologically to our past and current state?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Missed the first part yesterday, but I caught it tonight... along with the second part. I now remember why the hell I never sit through marathons anymore. And, good lord, what's the deal with those bumpers Sci-Fi has going on? That fly-boy really creeps me out. Anyway, on to the show:
I watched many of the original Battlestar Galactica episodes when they aired on Sci-Fi about two or three years ago as a marathon. I liked it overall, but I thought it was a bit campy. That said, yeah, I really liked this remake. I liked how dark and depressing it was at times. The little girl on the botanical ship waiting for her parents? When the Cylons attack and the screen just fades to white on her? That got me. So did Adama's reaction on the supposed destruction of Colonial One (and Apollo) and when Boomer takes off in the ship by herself and those civilian survivors from Caprica.
I really liked a lot of the tension between the characters. The crew chief vs. Tigh, Starbuck vs. Tigh, Apollo vs. Adama, Adama vs. the President, etc. I thought were pretty well played. Well I think the release of tension from Apollo and Adama's relationship was paced pretty well, I think it would have been better to have Starbuck confess her sins much later (like, say, in the series if it were to get picked up).
Starbuck's a bitch, essentially. I like her, but she's a bitch. She also reminds A LOT of Beka Valentine from Andromeda. I kinda hoped that Tigh would backhand her after that final confrontation, but she's a fun character. I also like Boomer, and I like that it seems she going to be the foster mother to Boxey. And, speaking of Boxey, not much screen time for the lad, huh? At least he didn't come across as annoying as he did in the original series.
I really like what the remake did to Baltar. Instead of intentionally betraying humanity and becoming the evil villian (and campiest of them all), he's a complicated and arrogant man who unwittingly helped aid that destruction of humanity. If this were to go to series, I would really like to see how that burden would affect him (not to mention the impending insanity from 6 of 12 living in his head). I also liked how Adama fared. Not the super goody-two-shoes I remember from the original series. A very military man he is; I think it fit into his character well how he eventually decided to help the convoy escape and how he seems to be the President's adversary.
Overall, I liked the miniseries. I liked the characters, and I thought they came across pretty well. It felt like to me that they had chemistry with each other (although Starbuck and Apollo seemed like they needed work). I liked the Cylons, and I like this origin story better than the original (which I'm still pretty confused about). The special effects were cool, and I found it neat how the sound effects for the space scenes seemed to be muted. There was still sound, but not so heavy. And the operatic parts of the music score I really liked.
Here are my main problems: I hate that Boomer is going to be the double agent. I like her, damn it! Even though it could set up a cool future story where her betrayal is made known (and the effect on the crew chief and Boxey), I still like her and want her to be good! Damn it! I'm also disappointed that it turned out the photographer was a Cylon agent. I was so hoping that Baltar was lying and that an innocent person was going to bite the big one for his covering up his sins. Instead, we see the committee of Cylon-Humanoids and learn the identity of the sleeper on Galactica.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Photographer turning out to be a cylon was a total cop-out. Baltar didint know anything and he just miracleously picked the right guy?
It was an easy way to say they didint sentence an innocent man to death.
[ December 10, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
But they don't know that yet.
I also hadn't seen a thing of the original series, and have to say that I thought the miniseries was overall pretty decent.
I'd love to see more - the hook is there. Perhaps another real miniseries. Two eppies does not a miniseries make.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I agree, Jason. I think it would have been much better for the photographer to be innocent and flayed open by the Cylons at the end. It really would have shown just how much of a bastard Baltar is and how far he'll go to save his own ass.
Another point on the Cylon-Humanoids. The ending pretty much told us that Boomer is a Cylon agent. However, the conversation between Baltar and 6 of 12 just before we see the Photographer picked up seems to imply that the Cylon agent is a sleeper. If that's so, Boomer shouldn't be doing the Cylons any favors right now, correct? Not until her programming is activated should she be helping them, and 6 of 12 implies that the sleeper hasn't yet been awakened.
With that in mind, how the hell did that Cylon device wind up in the command center? Tigh's assistant (the lieutenant) says that the device had been there a week. The photographer didn't set foot in the command center until the day of the attacks. So he obviously couldn't have put it there. That leaves two possibilities. Boomer is a sleeper, and there's an active Cylon on the crew somewhere. Boomer is an active Cylon, and there may or may not be a sleeper on board.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: I agree, Jason. I think it would have been much better for the photographer to be innocent and flayed open by the Cylons at the end. It really would have shown just how much of a bastard Baltar is and how far he'll go to save his own ass.
Totally agree there.
quote: With that in mind, how the hell did that Cylon device wind up in the command center? Tigh's assistant (the lieutenant) says that the device had been there a week. The photographer didn't set foot in the command center until the day of the attacks. So he obviously couldn't have put it there.
Um, that's wrong, actually. When Baltar is planning to use him, he mentions to 6 that the guy's been on board for a couple weeks, with complete access to the ship. Remember, he wasn't one of the photographers; he was leading them around and giving them the tour. He was some kind of government PR flunky.
Marian
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Like many people, I've previously watched little to no Battlestar Galactica. I once tried to watch an episode of Galactica 1980...
*Begin flashback*
My eyes! They burn!
*End flashback*
...but I can't say I cared for it.
Anyway, I enjoyed the mini-series. Commander Adama sounded so much like B5's Sheridan that it was kind of scary, though.
The one thing I want explained, though, is the scene where Adama picks up that piece of paper that says there are only 12 models of Cylons. I'm guessing this is supposed to mirror the 12 colonies, but I still don't get it. Does that mean 12 models that look like humans, or just that many models period? Can't the Cylons design new models themselves?
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Yeah, Krenim, I'm so sorry. I'd recommend you flush with the pilot episode of Battlestar Galactica proper. Such promise. No one, but no one should ever have to see Galactica 1980. OTOH, it does tend to cast this miniseries in a very positive light...
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: That leaves two possibilities. Boomer is a sleeper, and there's an active Cylon on the crew somewhere. Boomer is an active Cylon, and there may or may not be a sleeper on board.
Well I doubt she's an active Cylon. That would blow for them the opportunity to have the old, "what do you mean I'm a replicant" episode. (In which they'd have to figure out some way to make her not a Cylon.) Not to mention the, "no, shoot her, she's the Cylon replicant!" episode. I suspect the human Cylons will make for all kinds of paranoid "who's the mole" fun.
We were trying to figure out whether Baltar really had invented a Cylon detector. The scene is played like he's bullshitting, but I mean he'd have to produce one at some point and it doesn't seem like it would be all that difficult. I mean if the Cylon physiology is different enough that they've got silicon(silica? silicate? silly anyway) neurons susceptible to radiation, even an X-Ray might do. I mean he'd need to have evidence, he couldn't just point at people. The other thing to think about (while trying desperately not to think about how much Baltar looks/sounds like a strung out Bashir) is that this guy really is supposed to have one of the most advanced minds on the planet. It's entirely possible that with a little help from Scorpius-er, I mean No. 6 that he'd be able to intuit who's a Cylon and who isn't. My theory is that he might be a Cylon sleeper. Maybe.
That being said, I think leaving the press agent (he's not really so much a photographer, is he?) alive makes for a PROFOUNDLY DUMB tactical error. Here's this guy with all this extrememly sensitive information about the personnel and protocol of the Battlestar, I would think either A) destroying him, or B) examining/interrogating him would be in order. This would necessarily entail some way to block the Cylon transmissions of course, perhaps generating some kind of ion field emulating that of the Ragnar ion clouds.
Another thing that kind of bugged was the rapid discarding of things which would give you valuable evidence about who you are up against. For instance, I believe Baltar mentions that they detected sythetic elements when they cremated the Arms-dealer Cylon. Why in the fuck would you destroy the singular prototype, presumably already incapacitated, of a brand new, and horrifyingly not-understood weapon. That's less than dumb. And then when you get an opportunity to examine a working model... well that's dumb. I guess they've got the smoke detector and maybe they figure that will be enough.
I had more problems with this episode and no, not just the fact that the entire mega-gigantic super advanced (from us) Aircraft Carrier in space with what must certainly must be millions of sensors, weapons systems, navigation elements, and control apparatus aren't networked (though clearly that will remain a thorn in my side). No, more than that it was the presence of so much more bad dialogue/delivery in this episode. Even Mary McDonnel who I usually adore had that terrible line about saving their collective ASSES, that sounded all wrong and didn't fit, etc. The Starbuck vs. Tigh, Starbuck vs. Apollo, Apollo vs. everyone, Adama vs. President scenes also stand out. Which is too bad because that's really a lot of them isn't it.
Dude, please stop saying 'bullets'. Once was funny. More than that is just silly and it makes me mad.
Getting Adama locked in another part of the station with the impossibly suspicious and inexplicably solo Cylon was handled VERY unsmoothly.
I am curious about the piece of paper. Was it Baltar? Was it the baby from inside the silver case? Anyway it's interesting.
The battle scene was very cool though. I mean the heroic piloting was silly, but fun. But the battle was neato. Was it just me or was the animation of a couple of the Cylon shots rather jerky. It's not a big deal. It was definitely way cool.
I also liked that they will presumably be able to downgrade the Viper Mk 7s (and other ships) so that they don't get switched off everytime they see a Cylon.
Do you think I could get a chip in my head that just tried to molest me from time to time and wasn't part of some kind of quasi-religious mechanical cabal attempting to convice me to betray my comrades and perpetrate genocide on my species?
I also liked they withheld the explanation about why that cloud was important until we see Mr. Cylon arms-dealer coming off the rails. Edward James Olmos beats the guy to death with a flashlight, and then keeps on whacking for good measure in a scene right after they are talking about humans and clubs. How cool is that? Picard would never approve. Hooray barbarians!
I am officially interested in viewing an ongoing series, and would make an effort to catch it or tape it or whatever.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Just a few points:
I have no problem with them not networking Galactica and it still being able to function well. You don't think the WWI and WWII battleships were networked, do you?
Yes, it was lucky that Baltar just happened to pick the Cylon randomly. But he doesn't know that, and I think it will really mess with his sanity, thinking that he sent an innocent person to die, and not knowing who the real agent is. Of course, he also didn't know there was more than one. He's also going to have to try and BS his way through screening everyone else. I believe they left the guy alive because there was, according to Baltar, the small chance that he was not a Cylon.
I noticed near the end when the Vipers were returning to the Galactica that at least one Mark 7 survived.
So how long until they announce (admit?) that they're starting a new series?
B.J.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Easy way to spot Cylons: just photograph every person on every ship having sex and fry those whose spines start glowing red. (Why would you build light-emitting circuits into there in the first place?)
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Um, that's wrong, actually. When Baltar is planning to use him, he mentions to 6 that the guy's been on board for a couple weeks, with complete access to the ship. Remember, he wasn't one of the photographers; he was leading them around and giving them the tour. He was some kind of government PR flunky.
Ah, I see now, and I stand corrected. I completely didn't associate the PR/tour guide person as being the same person who took the pictures of the Adamas. I thought they were completely different characters. And this also leads me to agree with Balaam's point about leaving him on that station. I mean, the whole series they talked about keeping things secret from the populace less they be captured and forced to spill what they know to the Cylons. Instead of just killing the suspected Cylon who knows A LOT about the only remaining battlestar, they leave him alone on a station to be caught by the Cylons. Really, really poor.
I also have a bone to pick about the computers on the Galactica not being networked; however, my complaint is different from Balaam's. Who the hell is Adama that he gets to decree that there will be no networks and no automated systems aboard the battlestar? I mean, that's an important capital ship, and the military command just said, "Well, Adama's the shiznit, so we'll let him have a battlestar and allow him to force his paranoid views of computer technology on the ship, thereby making it less sophisticated than the rest of the fleet." Whoever agreed to that deserves to be a TNG-era Starfleet admiral.
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane The battle scene was very cool though. I mean the heroic piloting was silly, but fun. But the battle was neato. Was it just me or was the animation of a couple of the Cylon shots rather jerky. It's not a big deal. It was definitely way cool.
I noticed that a lot of the battle scenes in the conclusion were jerky and shaky. It was a bit distracting.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I missed the first ten or fifteen minutes, and haven't watched most of my recording yet. Can anyone tell me if there's any reason stated for the Cylons wanting to kill us all? Or is it just a given?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Omega, that is indeed explained in the first 10 minutes of part one. Humanity created the Cylons to serve us. Man kinda acted like God and got too bossy with the machines. They revolted and a long, bloody war between man and Cylon began. Eventually, an armistice was reached, and the Cylons settled on another world. Forty years after the conclusion of that war, the Cylons came back for revenge.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Of course, that premise was pretty stupid to begin with: humanity has been at war with an implacable enemy (ok, a race of oversized rolls of aluminum foil complete with flashy KITT eyes, but an enemy nonetheless) for decades, yet because ONE man claims he has brokered a peace deal, we all decide to go about our business and leave our colony worlds defenseless. Such strategic minds we are.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Yeah, the preamble to the destruction of the colonies is much better in the miniseries than it was in the original series. That's not to say that there aren't problems, though. The colonial military had no monitoring outposts around their homeworlds to detect the incoming Cylon invasion force? They didn't care that one of their officers died on a diplomatic space station they shared with their enemies? In forty years of not hearing from the Cylons, they think that just maybe they ought to do some reconnaissance to see what they're up to? Like I said, TNG-era admirals must have found new jobs in the BG universe.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: The other thing to think about (while trying desperately not to think about how much Baltar looks/sounds like a strung out Bashir) is that this guy really is supposed to have one of the most advanced minds on the planet. It's entirely possible that with a little help from Scorpius-er, I mean No. 6 that he'd be able to intuit who's a Cylon and who isn't. My theory is that he might be a Cylon sleeper. Maybe. That leaves two possibilities. Boomer is a sleeper, and there's an active Cylon on the crew somewhere. Boomer is an active Cylon, and there may or may not be a sleeper on board.
Well I doubt she's an active Cylon. That would blow for them the opportunity to have the old, "what do you mean I'm a replicant" episode. (In which they'd have to figure out some way to make her not a Cylon.) Not to mention the, "no, shoot her, she's the Cylon replicant!" episode. I suspect the human Cylons will make for all kinds of paranoid "who's the mole" fun. [/QUOTE]
I thought "Dr. bashier from the Mirror Universe" many times when listening to Baltar from the other room.....really funny in a sad, unoriginal way.
#6 being inside Baltar's head is a HUGE Scorpious rip-off! Can I get a HELL YEAH?!?
I'd be impressed if Boomer was an active cylon: All the scenes where she's an emotional wreck are with lots of witnesses and she's never shown alone. I like that.....buuuut the Galactica's location could also have been given away via that chip we know is in Baltar's head. Mabye the cylons know everything Baltar knows?
I would hope they avoid all the "what being human is really about" stories they could do with Boomer if she predictibly learns she's a cylon and sides with the humans anyway. It's Sci-Fi channel so they'll alomst certainly take the bait and re-hash old Data/T'alk stories though.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Re: networked computer systems
Uh, how important can it be? Its about to be decommissioned and turned into a museum and Adama is supposedly some hero for some random reason, fleet command probably just shrugged their shoulders and said "whatever, let the guy suit himself". In fact, it kinda bugs me how they weren't MORE prepared for this. I mean, its only been 40 years since WWII and people are still paranoid about nuclear radiation, neo-Nazi's, anti-Semitism, etc. I would have expected them to have EMP devices, more teams devoted to countering electronic gear, no "mainframes" for Baltar to get his hands on , and be bloody paranoid about any electronic equipment with a transmitter on it. Oh well, serves the plot.
Re: 12 models
That just seems weird. They designed totally new Cylons that the humans aren't aware of with advanced AI and whatnot, but decided not to make anymore variations? In addition, they decided to taunt Adama with this information, letting him know about it? What flakey random language are these robots programmed in? Turing?
Re: aesthetics
About time we have a big capital ship that actually IS big and ungainly with a seemingly large crew. That really bugged me about Andromeda SFX aside from the endless repetition of stock footage. These are supposed to be big huge fricken ships, don't have them bopping about twisting around like an insane top, especially with no sense of scale.
Re: guns vs. missiles
Is there a reason from the original why this decision was made? Or is this just meant to evoke WWII images and give a big aesthetic difference between the Cylons and the humans? There doesn't seem to be any reason not to have both, you'd think they would both have their uses.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:I mean, its only been 40 years since WWII and people are still paranoid about nuclear radiation, neo-Nazi's, anti-Semitism, etc.
Um, I don't know when WWII ended where you live, but it's actually a lot closer to sixty years since the end of the war.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
You can tell I'm in math right But, see, that only helps my point....
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean, its only been 40 years since WWII and people are still paranoid about nuclear radiation, neo-Nazi's, anti-Semitism, etc. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, I don't know when WWII ended where you live, but it's actually a lot closer to sixty years since the end of the war.
Well, in the South.... The War Between The States never ended. Lee did not have authority to surrender. So maybe since Hirohito didn't sign the armistace of WWII we are still at war with Japan.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes, but the South should be irrelevent to this discussion. And, indeed, everything.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Yes, but the South should be irrelevent to this discussion. And, indeed, everything.
Dont say that! Wherever a trailer has avoided cyclonic destruction, the south lives on!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"in the South.... The War Between The States never ended."
Not in Tennessee, anyway. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "in the South.... The War Between The States never ended." B)
Or the lovin' between first cousins. Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Yes, but the South should be irrelevent to this discussion. And, indeed, everything.
::cough:: I'm in the South, you know.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
My heartfelt condolences, Siegfried. Really. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm in America's Wang. Not south in a "yee-haw" kinda way, though.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Wherever a trailer has avoided cyclonic destruction, the south lives on!
'A rag-tag fleet of trailerhomes desperately making their way...' You've got the makings of a fun parody there.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Say, are copious amounts of screencaps from the show available online somewhere? I won't be getting it until later January, and I don't think I can yet justify the download.
Mark
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Re: guns vs. missiles
Is there a reason from the original why this decision was made? Or is this just meant to evoke WWII images and give a big aesthetic difference between the Cylons and the humans? There doesn't seem to be any reason not to have both, you'd think they would both have their uses.
My guess would be that the Galactica, being an artifact of the Cylon war, was designed with extreme paranoia about electronically sophisticated weaponry, and for that reason uses "buckshot" that no AI can convince to change course, etc.
What bugged me a little about the big final battle was that Adama says to leave the Basestars to the Galactica, but did they ever show the basestars taking a single hit?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No they didint. Nor did Galactica do anything besides throw up a big AAA screen tat the fighters (somehow) flew around when attacking the cylons. I'd love to think the (inevitible) series will mention the obvious problem of their eventually running out of ammo and not being able to make more, but I doubt it'll happen.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Oh, was Moore involved in Voyager?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If he was, you can bet Galactica will have a limitless supply of Vipers.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
He was for roughly 1 and a half episodes at the beginning of season 5. I'm not sure if that's long enough to count for anything.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I was only kidding! Although his beinf involved at all id a bit unsetteling....
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: Oh, was Moore involved in Voyager?
His resume basically goes like this: He started out on TNG around season 3, stayed with it through Generations, and then switched to DS9 until the end of its run. He says DS9 was the best of the Trek series, largely because Rick Berman was focussed on Voyager and stayed out of their hair. After DS9 they offered him a spot on Voyager, but he says they were hostile to his ideas for fixing it, so he didn't stay long.
Marian
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
No, but back to the Network thing. I just can't imagine a vehicle as technically advanced as Galactica is being so backwards. I know that the Space Shuttle's computers are networked. I don't know enough about the Apollo capsule, to know whether it had multiple computers or whatever, but so my point is that being in space is inherently a more complicated place to be than, say, water. The WWII battleships may not have had Networked computers, but you weren't asking a WWII battleships to do the sorts of things a Battlestar would be required to.
Have you any idea how complicated prioritizing, ranging and firing their guns at thousands of targets swarming all around them at what must certainly be thousands of kilometers per centon would be? How could they possibly compete with the presumably massively networked Cylon counterparts? There's no way to do that effectively no matter how many people you've got reading off digits from octagonal sheets of paper. What about human error? With the amount of redundant data entry that would have to be happening, I would think that might constitute a threat to rival the Cylons. How could their CIC even work without at least some networked systems? How could Tigh see how much bullets [sic] they had in their magazines? Would someone go look at the gage, come back, ring up someone upstairs, then that person types that number into the Magazine X computer (since each Magazine would need one, right?) when Tigh isn't using it? That doesn't fly for me.
I'm sorry I'm having so much difficulty with this, and I realize I'm belaboring the point. There is such a thing as dramatic license and all. I just think maybe for the sake of simplifying things they've sacrificed credulity to make this one point overly simple. So much of the rest of the show I'm willing to swallow, but this one sticks. Are the producers trying to make the point that computers talking to one another is a bad thing? No wonder the internet buzz was so negative. They could've just said that the only networks on Galactica are old and hard-wired and are using some really byzantine (but effective) encryption.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the "Networking" Adama refers to allows for such good ideas as computer override of Vipers and other shuttlecraft, remote directional control of misssiles and remote computer taps into planetary defense systems and the other ships in the fleet. That kind of remote "network" would be (and was!) hugely comprimised by Cylon technology.
The real question is, if that's what Adama ws referring to, why didint the fleet learn this lesson: if the (obsolete) Galactica was built to avoid that kind of remote computer violations?
Silly writers.
Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
Perhaps networking refers to connecting multiple unrelated systems together? Thus an attack on, say, the targeting computers won't impact anything else. There are very few things that humans can't do that computers can, though we're always slower.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
It's probably the difference between LANs and WANs. Even today, LANs are becoming so commonplace we hardly think about them any more. But WANs require a bit more protocol and setup and maintanance, and all that.
It's likely the bridge computers are all hooked up through a LAN that isn't connected to the rest of the ship, or anything outside. And so on.
--Jonah
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
The more important line, is that Apollo couldn't use the automatic landing system, because there isn't one. By choice. The Cylons didn't use any new weapons or tactics, they just used a computer virus. The Galactica had the virus, but it hadn't infected anything that mattered.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
In general, objections the plausibity of Galactica's lack of networking seem to be based on two assumptions: it needs networking because it's a spaceship, or because it's a warship.
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: ...so my point is that being in space is inherently a more complicated place to be than, say, water.
Hey, it's not like it's rocket science or anything. Oh, wait... =)
But seriously, maneuvering in three dimensions isn't that much more complicated than maneuvering in two. Nothing Sir Isaac Newton couldn't handle. Orbital mechanics are a little trickier at first, because they aren't intuitive--you basically accelerate to slow down and brake to speed up--but once you get a handle on it it's not that hard. I can do it on paper without any computer, networked or otherwise. Remember, Apollo 13 was able to make burns with her guidance 'puter down.
In short, a spaceship doesn't need networked computers just because it's a spaceship.
quote: The WWII battleships may not have had Networked computers, but you weren't asking a WWII battleships to do the sorts of things a Battlestar would be required to. [SNIP]
Aren't we? I don't know how complicated "prioritizing, ranging and firing their guns at thousands of targets swarming all around them" would be, but I'll bet AA gun crews on WWII warships did. After all, Galactica wasn't trying to hit each Cylon with a single shell so much as throw up a wall of metal.
CIC doesn't need to know the exact number of bullets each turret has; a good officer would know roughly how long the magazines will last, and if a gun is about to fall silent, it's crew tells DCC (or whatever the equivalent), and the skipper gets an update from the DCO.
Generally speaking, two crewmen and a telephone can handle any specific piece of networking necessary, just as they have done on real warships until very recently. It takes a lot of warm bodies to manage the dataflow for a carrier, but it can be done. It has been done, successfully, under combat conditions.
In short, a warship doesn't need networked computers just because it's a warship.
I also don't agree that the creeping return of computer networking in the fleet constitutes "silly writing," either. The show addressed that, in a number of scenes. It's been 40 years. People are complacent. They've forgotten the danger and see only the convenience. People who still worry about it are old fogeys that no-one takes seriously, like those people in the 1980s who were so concerned about the Japanese "buying up everything." It's very human.
In researching for the script Moore spend an extended tour aboard the USS Constellation, and it shows. He's said in interviews that he wanted to make the Galactica as much as possible like an aircraft carrier from the 1950s or 60s, and I think he's succeeded. I've never seen any scifi TV show come close to this level of verisimilitude in depicting life aboard a warship. Even in good SF TV like Babylon 5 there are many moments that make me wince.
On the other hand, I didn't watch B5 because I wanted to see a realistic depiction of life aboard an O'Niell cylinder. =) While the characters also feel "real" as military people, I don't like them very much. That, and the unnecessary and juvenile sexuality, are my biggest disappointments about the show. If a series does follow, that's what they need to work on--making us care about the people and what happens to them.
Marian
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I would just like to state briefly that Marian is the first "newbie" I've taken a liking to right off the bat since probably Captain Mike. Hope you stick around, Marian!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: But seriously, maneuvering in three dimensions isn't that much more complicated than maneuvering in two. In short, a spaceship doesn't need networked computers just because it's a spaceship.
I also don't agree that the creeping return of computer networking in the fleet constitutes "silly writing," either. The show addressed that, in a number of scenes. It's been 40 years. People are complacent. They've forgotten the danger and see only the convenience..
In researching for the script Moore spend an extended tour aboard the USS Constellation, and it shows. Marian
Actually, The galactica would need everything not only networked, but also all of it's mass accounted for and all it's systems working in perfect synnchronicity because, it goes FTL. I shudder to think of all the things that would have to be interconnected for an FTL jump or heck, even retracting the landing bays before making the jump. I said the writing was "silly" simply because it's an EXACT copy (down to protocall and terminologies!) of a US aircraft carrier in space and not something that humans far in advance of ourselves, with hundreds of years experience in space and zero connection to present day earth would have made. It's one thing to take inspiration from real life military sources and another to completely copy them and call it something "colonial". Even if the 12 colonies had originated from Earth of today (with all the military ideas and jargon in place) in hundreds of years, none of that would remain.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I shudder to think of all the things that would have to be interconnected for an FTL jump or heck, even retracting the landing bays before making the jump.
Why? I mean, we don't know anything about the requirements for an FTL jump except that the hanger deck probably needs to be secure, do we? And even if there are various things that need to be done, they can all just run to a big board of green lights on the bridge. If it's done, the green light comes on. If all lights are on, you can jump.
I said the writing was "silly" simply because it's an EXACT copy (down to protocall and terminologies!) of a US aircraft carrier in space and not something that humans far in advance of ourselves, with hundreds of years experience in space and zero connection to present day earth would have made.
The protocol and terminologies could have been translated for our benefit, like the names and language, to be something we could easily understand. As for what we might build centuries from now... well, why not? Can you point to something on Galactica that could be done better in some objective sense, without requiring networked computers?
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
We know that FTL jumps apparently require some calculations. Tigh and Gaeta, I believe, did the required calculations for the jump to the Ragnor munitions stations. Gaeta was tasked with calculating the jump from Ragnor to just beyond the red-line. We also know that there are FTL engines that need to spin up in preparation for the jump. Depending on how the jump engines operate, the process could be as simple as programming the engine controller to run the engine for the set amount of time to travel the distance they wish to traverse. I do doubt, however, that the process is that simple.
As for the networks, I think I like Peregrinus's analogy of LANs and WANs. Obviously there are networks on the Galactica. There's a network of sensors that connected to the damage control panel on the command center that Tyrol, Tigh, and someone else were pondering. There's a network of communications devices that allow the phone and intercom systems to work. And, to echo Charles, the virus was in the communication system of the Galactica, but it was prevented from spreading to the power system because the two were not networked together.
Looking at it like this kind of reminds of the DS9 episode where Eddington sabotaged the computer system of the Defiant. The systems basically worked, but there was a lot of verbal communications going on to get the ship to function properly.
And, while I like that explanation, it doesn't explain why Adama was so damned adamant about not having freakin' maps networked together on the Galactica. I guess all we can say at this point is that Moore was very much less-than-clear on this issue, and that the series would explain the issue more (should there be one).
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
On a side note, there's a virtual tour of the command information center now online at SciFi's Battlestar Galactica site. I have to say that that is a pretty impressive set; I don't think I ever got a real sense of the details and dimensions of the room from the miniseries.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I know, I know. "Let it go bX." I can tell you're all silently wishing I would (while simultaneously feeling a little sorry for me). Know that this isn't some blatant attack and a reason to hate the show. This is not a "no-networks-therefore-show-is-crap" argument. Rest assured I am making this stand for the benefit of the writers of a potential future on-going series, who have been known from time to time trawl the boards (especially those renowned for exceptional techno dorkdom) looking to get feedback about how to do things. I'm just saying that while the idea of not having any networks is very interesting, if they are going for believability, then a more moderate WAN, limited wired-LAN, encrypted traffic approach is the better way to go. Saying "No Networks" is going to get them into big-hairy fan-boy trouble. I actually do quite like the series, this is my primary bone of technical contention. I also have solutions for their dramatic issues, but I suspect tha the series creators are A) not the least bit interested in what I have to say B) certainly aren't looking for that here C) already quite aware of the problem and working on a solution. D) intimidated by Edward James Olmos's star power and the machinations of the studio system pinching every penny such that the very marrow of their bones quivers for even a dollop of artistic freedom. With that in mind...
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: But seriously, maneuvering in three dimensions isn't that much more complicated than maneuvering in two. Nothing Sir Isaac Newton couldn't handle. Orbital mechanics are a little trickier at first, because they aren't intuitive--you basically accelerate to slow down and brake to speed up--but once you get a handle on it it's not that hard. I can do it on paper without any computer, networked or otherwise. Remember, Apollo 13 was able to make burns with her guidance 'puter down.
Ok, I might even be able to do that given a semi-nice calculator and some graph paper. But, let's say you're flying Galactica. You're maneuvering out of a gas-giant (or gas-coud or whatever Ragnor was supposed to be.) with some shearing force coming from atmospheric and magnetic impulses (we'll make it simple and sum those forces with a net vector S). Ok, now you have X number of fighters accelerating out of your port tubes which are canted at angle V from the center of gravity (which will, of course, be shifting from time to time from these exits and entries), and Y number from the starboard tubes canted at an angle W. Some of these fighters are Mk IIs and some are Mk VIIs which each exert different thrust. Now you have T number landing in the port and U in the starboard. Ok, now one of the civie ships is coming up a little fast. Speed up. And another one is along side. Steer to port. Got that? How you doin? Keepin' up? Ok, and now there are seventeen nuclear warheads bearing down on your position, please try to avoid getting hit without exposing the civilian ships. Ok, and so now you have A-N turrets exerting P torque along Q axes, which variables will likely be changing nearly constantly. How's it coming. All of this assuming that the maneuvering system is functioning properly and that there is no damage or malfunctions from, say, said inbound nuclear warheads for example. Just to keep things interesting please bear in mind that in a few minutes we're going to make an FTL jump which requires minutely accurate positioning and so therefore you must constantly know our precise location and orientation. Also we'd better minimize our profile, escape the gravity well, and btw, your entire extended family has been reduced to irradiated dust along with everyone and everything you ever loved on the crumbling cinder that was your homeplanet about ten hours ago.
I'm saying it's a daunting task, and there's a lot to try to keep track of, and if it's changing as fast as the scenario above, even with a REALLY nice well structured program, you are going to have to be entering an awful lot of data REALLY fast in order to make it work.
Also I like Marian. But then I liked kmart and look where that got me.
Also, yes, I do realize that it's, like, 8:30 on a Friday night and that my entry above only serves to further the theory that therefore I have no life.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: I would just like to state briefly that Marian is the first "newbie" I've taken a liking to right off the bat since probably Captain Mike. Hope you stick around, Marian!
Golly. Ah may blush. =)
I'm kinda curious as to why, though...
Marian
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Are you a girl? That would do it.
Bx brings up very good points and I'd further them by bringing up how nearly impossible it would be (and wasteful) to coordinate all that AAA fire the Galactica spewed forth by relaying orders via intercom to dozens of gunnery control teams each targeting and firing independant of the other guns....
quote: The protocol and terminologies could have been translated for our benefit, like the names and language, to be something we could easily understand. As for what we might build centuries from now... well, why not? Can you point to something on Galactica that could be done better in some objective sense, without requiring networked computers?
If we're to accept that all those exact terms are just a translation for our benifit then we might as well accept continuity errors, bad science and hokey dialogue as translation mistakes while we're deluding ourselves.
I can point out that the Galactica is a product of a culture that SHOULD be far diffrent than our own: far moreso than anything the Federation uses in TNG in fact, because the colonies have no design or verbal lineage with any of our modern earth tech or naval history. It'd be far more likely that a "lost colony" wold build something like the new Basestar than anything we'd recognise as an aircraft carrier with a flight deck.
As to what could have been better (and could still be fixed to some point): If Galactica is truly run by mini networks that are not interconnected, I'd have a sub class of technicians and command officers to coordinate their departments and run independent systems. Like the Flight Controller position but for AAA, Missiles, FTL, Damage Control, Ships Stores etc. Each department would need at least a small team with one supervisor to run it properly.
That would however mean a HUGE hirearchy of middle-managment to make the ship run smoothly. It could lead to some great "Lower Decks" type episodes though, I suppose. Everyone would certainly be too busy working their butts off to realize Adama is full of crap.
Maintence crews in particular will be spread very thin to keep the whole fleet in working order. ....and the other ships in the fleet are still probably networked in a way that leaves them vulnerable to the Cylon system-corruption.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I'm kinda curious as to why, though...
We run into annoying newbies. They leave with great rapidity. You are not among these. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Something intresting: Glen Larson jsut bought back the rights to make a BG movie and Bryan Singer has been trying to produce/direct one for a few years now: he even has the script, new viper and cylon designs and at one point (when it looked like a greenlight) had full sized Viper mockups under construction before it all fell apart.
quote:Larson's strongest criticism is that the miniseries is so contemporary: "It sort of drove me crazy to have so much dialogue that is earthbound and colloquialisms."
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The Battlestar runs Kobol. There's your networking in a nutshell. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The new Vipers run on Kobol v. 6.0
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Golly. Ah may blush. =)
I'm kinda curious as to why, though...
Coherent sentences. And punctuation. It does wonders for first impressions.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I for one am not wishing that you'd drop it, Balaam. Quite the contrary, I hadn't put much thought into Adama's "no networks" line until you brough it up here. Besides, this is the most engaging discussion I've been in since I've stopped participating in the Enterprise threads. My opinion at this point is Moore goofed on this point, Adama was over-simplifying for the Secretary of Education, and Adama's just an inch away from locking himself in a shack in rural Montana and hammering out a manifesto.
Also, Jason, could you elaborate a bit more on the need for a huge middle management to run a ship that has no unifying, interconnected network? I'm not quite sure I'm following you on that. Thanks.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: Like many people, I've previously watched little to no Battlestar Galactica. I once tried to watch an episode of Galactica 1980...
*Begin flashback*
My eyes! They burn!
*End flashback*
...but I can't say I cared for it.
Anyway, I enjoyed the mini-series. Commander Adama sounded so much like B5's Sheridan that it was kind of scary, though.
The one thing I want explained, though, is the scene where Adama picks up that piece of paper that says there are only 12 models of Cylons. I'm guessing this is supposed to mirror the 12 colonies, but I still don't get it. Does that mean 12 models that look like humans, or just that many models period? Can't the Cylons design new models themselves?
Appears to be twelve models that are humans like. Silly, to havew only twelve.
There are a lot of flaws in the mini, but overall I liked it. Ratings were great for Sci-Fi, so I figure they will go on to series. As long as they can keep Olmos, I'll keep watching. I hope they can also keep McDonnel.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Also, Jason, could you elaborate a bit more on the need for a huge middle management to run a ship that has no unifying, interconnected network? I'm not quite sure I'm following you on that. Thanks.
I was speculating that if each of the ship's departments were not connected, they'd have to be maintained by crews of people and those crews would need department heads and those heads would report to the XO who reports to the Captain and by the time the Captain gets word, the situation could have changed so the process starts all over endlessly. As opposed to just having the Captain glance at a status report on a monitor.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:I was speculating that if each of the ship's departments were not connected, they'd have to be maintained by crews of people and those crews would need department heads and those heads would report to the XO who reports to the Captain and by the time the Captain gets word, the situation could have changed so the process starts all over endlessly.
I'm just not seeing the problem. No matter what, the ship is going to have a crew working in the various departments maintaining, controlling, and reporting. Having a wide-area network connecting all of the ship's systems isn't going to change that. You may have to add a network engineer to each department, but communications is still going to have receiver repairmen, intercom operators, etc., and engineering is still going to have structural engineers, mechanical engineers, power engineers, etc. A ship as large as Galactica is going to have a large crew regardless of whether all the systems are interconnected or not.
quote:As opposed to just having the Captain glance at a status report on a monitor.
But, this is similar to what we saw happen on the Galactica. There's a damage control station in the command center, and it was getting input from internal sensors and crew reports. Tigh, Tyrol, and another officer were directing the efforts from that station. Not too mention, a lot of the ship's systems were directly accessible from the command center. Dualla appeared to be the communications officer or representative, and she seemed to be on the ball with forwarding messages to Adama. Gaeta appeared to be in charge of navigation. The ship's systems not being interconnected didn't seem to be a problem because all could directed from the command center.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
I think you two are talking about different concepts.
Jason is thinking about a completely isolated system. Every computer is not networked at all. Every sensor goes to one monitor and thats it. Therefore, yes, it would require a huge amount of middle management. The sensor tech for say, the starboard sensor array would have to confer with the head sensor tech, who would relay the information to the tactical officer, etc. However, this doesn't seem likely and doesn't fit the onscreen evidence.
I propose something like what follows, which fits the onscreen action and what Siegfried is thinking about and CC said briefly. 1) Every subsystem has a separate network. The sensor subsystem may join all sensors with a server and to a master control screen on the bridge but nothing else. 2) No connections between unrelated networks. Propulsion is *physically* disconnected from communications, is separate from life support, etc. 2a) No shared computer core. All calculations are done on servers native to their areas. 2b) Every console has a specific function which cannot be reconfigured.
So how is this separate from what we see in say Star Trek? Well Star Trek does have a shared computer core, every console is multifunctional, everything is connected.
Lets look at a few scenarios:
a) Baltar's infected navigation program. Star Trek: Two choices. Infection can proceed to the navigational console, reconfigure it to a new function and send the appropriate new commands or worse go directly to the shared computer core and do whatever. BG: Infection is confined to the navigation computer. The user may get a few funny looking messages, but without any hard connections to any other systems, i.e. propulaion, nothing happens
b) Bridge is taken over by hostile troops Star Trek: Redirect controls to Engineering, lock out old controls by command codes. BG: Controls harder to redirect, without pre-existing backups...screwed.
c) President Rosalin's teacher computers Star Trek: Computers installed and hooked into network. Due to shared computer core, everything is "faster and more convenient." Unless higher priority functions like navigation or tactical kick in. BG: Only local resources are used. Programs run slower without distributed computing
d) Moriarty goes mad Star Trek: Holodeck connected to computer core, Moriarty takes over the bridge. BG: Moriarty takes over rec-deck chess games
e) Riker orders tactical pattern Epsilon Beta via voice command Star Trek: Computer inputs appropriate navigational coordinates, arms the weapons, puts a tractor on an enemy vessel and prepares a steaming cup of really good tea instantaneously BG: Riker has to talk to three separate individuals and has to go to the replicator himself.
So as we can see there are advantages and disadvatages to both. With a reconfigurable console, Data can essentially control anything connected to the Enterprise computer. BG might need a tractor beam technician, a whole panel of navigation techs, sensor techs, etc. to do the same thing. However BG is much more immune to a computer virus or whatnot. But invariably, the BG setup will need a bigger crew, if only to relay orders between the various subsystems.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A good wrap-up both points of view. Galactica is also screwed if it's intra-ship communications eat it or if large umbers of crew are rendered unconsious or dead. Even on TOS, there would be computer lockouts to prevent the kind of system wide takeover shown on BSG. If Data could shut out the Borg, the Cylons owuld be no biggie.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: d) Moriarty goes mad Star Trek: Holodeck connected to computer core, Moriarty takes over the bridge. BG: Moriarty takes over rec-deck chess games
Priceless.
Okay, so I was still misunderstanding you, Jason. Sorry about that. And, nice wrap-up, Mucus.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Here's something intresting: someone over at SSM thinks Tigh will turn out to be Starbuck's father. It would make sense: Why else make the chracter white? ....and it follows the idea of "parents (not) accepting responsibility for their children" that the series pounds into our heads. Besides, Starbuck calls Tigh "a Drunk" and "weak" but Tigh made some tough calls in the series and wasnt drunk (at least no more than Starbuck was) so where was her whole little bitch-out coming from?.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
BX, first let me say that I didn't intend to come across as wanting you to "let it go" or "shut up" or anything of that sort, and I'm sorry if my post sounded that way. You argue your points both intelligently and politely, and I enjoy reading your posts.
But I still don't agree. =)
You did a thorough job of thinking out some of the variables, but wonder if you aren't overthinking the problem. The answer might be as simple as choosing a fixed position relative to some reference point, and telling a guidance computer to compensate for any deviation. The computer wouldn't need to be networked to the rest of the ships systems, it just needs some way of knowing the ship's position and the reference position, and be able to monitor changes and fire the ship's reaction control engines to compensate. It would be a busy little 'puter during a firefight, but it wouldn't need to be a networked one.
The Galactica seemed to me to be stationary for this battle (relative to the nebula aperature, anyway; nothing's truly stationary in space), with the barrage perimeter shielding Galactica and the Galactia shielding the civilian ships. But I think the basic same idea could be applied to a ship under way. The guidance computer would just be told to compensate relative to a course instead of a fixed point.
I'm confident that there's a counterexample for ever argument that the Galactica's lack of networked computers is implausible, but I wonder if there's anything to gain by arguing the point into the ground. Will I ever persuade you?
Which brings me to the question I've been pondering all day: how do you (and here I mean generic "you," not anyone specific) decide whether something's plausible? How well do you have to understand how something would work to believe that it can?
What I mean is, If you feel that something is (or isn't) plausible, it might be because you're right, or it might be because you don't know enough about the subject. How do you tell?
I recall when I first saw the movie Braveheart thinking how unrealistic it was that Wallace just happened upon one of the great tactical innovations of the Middle Ages--using a tight pike formation to break up a heavy cavalry charge. Then I went home and looked it up, lo, that part of the movie was accurate. Stirling Bridge was the third battle ever in which that tactic was used.
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Also, yes, I do realize that it's, like, 8:30 on a Friday night and that my entry above only serves to further the theory that therefore I have no life.
You're in good company. =)
Marian
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: I recall when I first saw the movie Braveheart thinking how unrealistic it was that Wallace just happened upon one of the great tactical innovations of the Middle Ages--using a tight pike formation to break up a heavy cavalry charge. Then I went home and looked it up, lo, that part of the movie was accurate. Stirling Bridge was the third battle ever in which that tactic was used.
Macedonian Phalanx worked in much the same way: the technique was just lost (along with such innovations as the formula for concrete) during the Dark Ages.
As to what's plausable: It's obvious that we Flarites dont know exactly how FTL would work or anything about creating cybernetic organisms or the logistics of commanding a spaceborne aircraft carrier but some things seem to be lacking common sense and practicality: Cylon girl's spine gowing during sex for blatant example or their ability to emulate humans at all after living seperately for so long and us not seeing anything like an intermediary stage between these perfect Terminator units and the lunchbox models. ....and for me, the exact terms and methods used on 2003 era aircraft carriers being used by people with zero contact with us now or within at least three thousand years. The aircraft carrier terms would have really enhanced Space Above and Beyond or Starship Troopers but it detracts from the concept here.
I'm still not writing off this as "bad", just pointing out parts that made me either wince or change the channel the first time through.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by MarianLH: Golly. Ah may blush. =)
I'm kinda curious as to why, though... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coherent sentences. And punctuation. It does wonders for first impressions
Now ah beginn too undrstand y Psiliam doznt lik mee
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Perhaps it's because of your flavour that he doesn't lik you very much.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Grammar rules! (Think about it.)
I think I'm putting myself into the nicely-exampled Mucus camp of isolated networks. (it's all sticky)
Even if you did have one computer calculating the distance/speed of some reference point (presumably with a separate sensor apparatus to determine it's position) with the same computer then calculating/controlling the maneuvering thrusters, there are still numerous complications. Does this same computer register damage to the maneuvering system or even damage to itself? Wouldn't the complete lack of redundancy make such a system even more vulnerable to damage/problems/malfunctions (and significantly, wouldn't such susceptibility negate any advantage not networking might lend?)
When the young officer shows Baltar that they have his program, but just haven't installed it yet, where is it? Is he sitting in the Navigator's seat? Mustn't that be the sole navigator's station because if there's more than one terminal where you can work on things navigational, then you have a network.
Speaking to plausibility: Even if the colonies have developed entirely separate from earth we must imagine their technological progression would be similar to our own. At this point we will probably never make even a small probe without utilizing at least some network technology. This is to say nothing of a vessel of the magnitude and complexity of Galactica (let alone of a fleet of, *gulp* 120 of these bohemoths.) I find it hard to believe that a culture as advanced as the colonies obviously are (they did make the first Cylons) would be so paranoid and backward as to completely ignore the distinct advantages networking would allow them as far as efficiency and capability. I understand the writers' intent and attempt to incorporate some history, and I understand that we're supposed to see that Galactica is a rusty old bucket but still useful (which, like, totally resonates for me, btw). I just can't get past that one technical conceit. Because I'm an obsessive fanboy. Someone please deliver me from this fate.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's kinda funny that while Adama is obsessive about not "having networks" while he's in command, he overlooks a softball sized piece of Cylon technology on his own bridge for probably a whole week. No one on his bridge crew is even curious enough to say "Hey guys, what's this new gizmo?" Good thing the cylons arent smart enough to have an explosive in there isint it?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I find it hard to believe that a culture as advanced as the colonies obviously are (they did make the first Cylons) would be so paranoid and backward as to completely ignore the distinct advantages networking would allow them as far as efficiency and capability.
The culture as a whole was only that paranoid for a little while after the war. The whole reason the Cylons wiped out the fleet is because the majority of the civilization DID recognize "the distinct advantages networking would allow them as far as efficiency and capability." Adama was the paranoid and backward one. And y'know what? He was right.
As for networked computers, computers can still get signals from each other without being networked in any usable (to the Cylons) sense. Something similar to morse code, just a simple electrical signal or the absence of it. If there's a signal, things are fine, if not, half the ship has been blown away.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Y'know, actually, I'm with B "fanboy" X on this one. I don't know how much of a knack the bucketheads have for decoding (machines for brains and all), but cryptographic systems ought to have progressed far enough by Galactica's time to secure information streams against most, if not all, forms of remote attack. Of course, the Cylons had forty years to perfect their cryptanalysis methods, but still...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: [i]
Adama was the paranoid and backward one. And y'know what? He was right.
Sweet: when the machines rise up against us, the Amish will kick back and say "Ayuh. I toldya". Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: At this point we will probably never make even a small probe without utilizing at least some network technology. This is to say nothing of a vessel of the magnitude and complexity of Galactica (let alone of a fleet of, *gulp* 120 of these bohemoths.) I find it hard to believe that a culture as advanced as the colonies obviously are (they did make the first Cylons) would be so paranoid and backward as to completely ignore the distinct advantages networking would allow them as far as efficiency and capability.
Except it seems implied that there was a push to getting high-powered networks everywhere. Remember, Galactica was the only one of 120 battlestars that was not affected when the Cylons launched their attack. That means all the others had to have some form of an interconnected network in place in order for Baltar's communications program to disable the rest of the systems on those ships. Also, when Apollo first arrived on the Galactica, he made a big deal of the auto-landing system being down. So, the other ships must have them (and the implication that they also have interconnecting networks). Yet also some more, Baltar was working on a high-level super-security-granting project that involved networks. I'm with Omega, the only backwards one is really Commander Adama.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon It's kinda funny that while Adama is obsessive about not "having networks" while he's in command, he overlooks a softball sized piece of Cylon technology on his own bridge for probably a whole week.
Tigh missed it completely as well, and Gaeta just assumed that it was for the decommissioning. Yeah, they all should of caught that. I bet Adama just trusted his subordinates to know that nothing networkish be installed on his ship, and his officers (most of them youngens who never fought in a war) were just complacent going into this decommissioning ceremony. Still, really sloppy on that, yes, I agree.
Back to the belaboured subject of networks, after rewatching the first part, the implication in the conversation between Roslin and Adama on the tour's network is that Galactica flat out has no networks of any kind whatsoever. Obviously a contradiction to how things were shown and what logic would dictate. Sloppy writing, again.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Remember, Galactica was the only one of 120 battlestars that was not affected when the Cylons launched their attack.
Well, that we know of. I wouldn't be surprised to see Battlestar Pegasus mentioned should this become a series.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Perhaps it's because of your flavour that he doesn't lik you very much.
I like the flavour of all things.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Finally got the second part downloaded and watched, so at last I can read this thread!
Coupla things I noticed: setting up - for the future - the fact that there's a ship with a hold full of convicts. I think one ep of the original involved a similar plot. . .
My question though, is, is the SciFi Channel actually capable of producing a show on this scale that doesn't suck? The SciFi Channel we have in the UK has almost nothing to do with the one you have in the US, so I don't really know what things they show. But what I do know of their past 'triumphs' isn't encouraging. . .
I think the rot was already setting in on Sliders before they took it on, but I don't think the SFC helped matters there. Then there's their lack of financial flexibility to take on new stuff, like Crusade - I don't think any of the shows they'd committed to instead are still going, not even the good ones like Farscape - and it can't be any coincidence that they dumped that at the same time of their taking on of Stargate SG-1. . . Can we be confident that they can produce a show that lasts long enough to be worthwhile? And that even if miraculously they do maange to go as long as Farscape did, that eventually they won't get bored and ditch it in favour of some EVENT like a, I dunno, Space: Above and Beyond "reimagination" miniseries or something?
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote:Except it seems implied that there was a push to getting high-powered networks everywhere. Remember, Galactica was the only one of 120 battlestars that was not affected when the Cylons launched their attack. That means all the others had to have some form of an interconnected network in place in order for Baltar's communications program to disable the rest of the systems on those ships. .
Obviously the Cylons hooked up with the Aliens from ID4 then hired Jeff Goldblum to bring his MacLaptop and download the most insidious programming available at the time.... Windows XP.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
The prospect is terrifying to say the least.
I wasn't able to tape the pilot and I'm mad at myself for not having been more dilligent in trying. Like Lee, I am concerned about the Sci-Fi Channel's ability to consistently produce quality episodes. I do think the new BSG has the potential to be great, but then I feel like Farscape was going gangbusters, but kind of lost it there. And honestly I haven't seen enough SG-1 to know if I really like it (They did have a mini-marathon on one night and I thought I'd just catch a little and then watch a video, but wound up watching the whole thing, for what it's worth.)
My primary concern with BSG is that they don't seem to understand what they've got. The sci-fi aspect seems like it's good stuff to me. The drama could use some work, but there's some potential there with EJO and Mary President. The Bay-Watch Nights thing is problematic. It just doesn't seem to fit, and I'm not saying it couldn't, but those scenes didn't play erotic to me. (Ok, well looking at the naked back of a supermodel is certainly erotic in one sense, but I'm more refering to the characters and their performances and the way it made me feel) It seemed this entire production was rushed, and where that REALLY hurt the show was in seeing the character interactions. In a lot of situations, characters who were life-long friends seemed to have only just met. As I understand it, budgeting some rehersal time will help immensely with this. And maybe if they get a series, that will be better. Anyway I like it, I thought it was good. I think it can be better. I hope there will be more.
But then I really liked Firefly and look where that got me.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Speaking of which, somebody should start a thread about those Firefly DVDs.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Just kiddin' ... I LUUUUV YOU MAAAAN!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Jusus holy fuck: It's still 2003 and nobody loves anything or anyone. Got that pal?!?
save that noise for next year.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I LUUUUV YOU, MAAAAAN!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
:: wraps Jeff in a big ol' Texas Bear Hug ::
I LOVE YOU, MAN! FOREVER AND EVER!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Get a room you two.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I LUUUUUV YOU JAAAAAAAAAAAAASON!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I never wanted a man to say that to me and now that it's happened, I never want it to happen again. I like you, but just "as a freind".
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, er, thanks, but I just meant that I loved you as a "friend" ... I'm going to leave this 'freind' thing along for you and your twisted friends!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I LOVE YOU, JASON! WITH ALL MY HEART AND LOINS!
On another serious note, and returning to the topic, I agree with you, Balaam, on your point in regards to the sometimes off-kilter interpersonal exchanges. Would I be far off base if I said you had the Apollo and Starbuck scenes in mind? A couple of them really stood out in my mind for unintentional awkwardness (the brig scene and the "He's Alive!" scene).
If this goes on to series production, I think a lot of the rough edges will be smoothed out.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Yes, the Apollo-Starbuck, Apollo-Adama, President-Apollo... Apollo-AndPrettyMuchEveryone seemed off. But then the Gaius-AnyoneNotACylonStrumpet relationships also seemed really confused. I liked Tigh, though. I thought he did a good job. And that younger bridge officer was good too. I frequently liked the president. I occasionally liked the president's aide. I thought Boomer was good on the planet, and less good in space.
As Siggy says, I suspect that given a little time together and perhaps less production pressure these kinks could be ironed out. I'd watch it for a while probably.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I can understand the awkwardness in the Apollo-Adama and the Adama-Roslin relationships. Both of those are supposed to be (in my opinion) pretty adversarial. In one, you have a guy who's royally pissed off at the other and has been for years. In the other, you have a strong-willed military man versus a strong-willed humanitarian. I concede, though, that the awkwardness in those relationships, while realistic, weren't the results of superb acting.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Watch Firefly sometime if you get a chance. There's an example of interpersonal relationships done right. It's a little rough in spots, but you do get the feeling that these people have lived and worked together for some time. I actually thought the Adama-Roslin (thanks, btw) relationship was pretty OK. And there was one scene with Apollo-Roslin that was actually pretty good. But I attribute this largely to Mary McDonnell because she's awesome and also Donnie Darko's mom.
Also, I LUV YOU, MAN.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I finally got a chance to watch this thing - after reading your comments for some time.
1} Having the terminology mirrow terran wet-navy terminology didn't bother me. I assumed that they weren't speaking English, and that the dialog (and graphics} were translated. I assumed the same thing during Star Wars (remember the Tractor Beam graphic?). Seriously, if they are going to use English translations for 'the' and but', why not for 'Landing Bay' and 'Fusion'? Why would they use 'Gllcooash' when they mean 'computer'? And why not use contemporary translations for the character names as well. I thought the cutest part was making such monickers as 'Starbuck' callsigns instead of their proper names. A clear case of the second producer improving on the first.
2) I have to go with the 'several mini-networks' theory. It makes a lot of sense - and is similar (I believe) to present-day naval systems.
3) Regarding hyper jumps, apparently all they need is a displacement vector and scalar (direction and range) from their present position. The only difficulty seemed to be insuring that they didn't re-emerge in a BAD place. I loved the jumps - which seemed to be fairly instantaneous. Very reminiscent of Niven/Pournelle's 'The Mote in God's Eye' - up to and including the post-jump disorientation.
4) Haing met several families who put the 'fun' back in 'disfunctional', I didn't have any problems with the interpersonal relationship aspects.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
It's just the way they were portrayed. Seemed oversimplified.
ALSO, there is new news. For those of us interested in there being an ongoing series, well it sounds like we're getting one.
I think I'll walk over to the studio and get a set tour...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I've just watched most of the first part and so far I'm quite impressed, it's allot more mature and watchable than the original, which lets face it was little more than a children's show.
I think it's actually the most literate sci-fi that I've ever seen in a television show.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
About the only thing I thought the original series had going for it was the 'sense of wonder' - which they helped manufacture by making some details just different enough to pique our curiosity (we were curious about their religion, anthropology, technology, etc.).
This new 'series' has me interested in the storyline and characters - surely a better state of affairs.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: I think it's actually the most literate sci-fi that I've ever seen in a television show.
Go. Watch Firefly right now. Quickly.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I only caught part of one or two episodes (don't have much time for TV). I remember a bit where they're chasing a train and something about a naked girl in a box. That's about the extent of my Firefly knowledge...apart from the fact that is was cancelled pretty fast.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)