Watched this one on Saturday morning while partially awake. More notes to follow...
-So, we see our first true Ancient of the show, and she's not like any seen before. Unlike Oma Dessala, who was all introspective and mysterious, Chaya Sar is more like Orlin, in that she was punished with exile for protecting the people she loved. Unlike Orlin though, Chaya seemed to have full control over her abilities and transformation, wiping out a whole Wraith attack force.
-The attack force consisted of two hive ships, which I believe is the first time we see them in space. They certainly seem massive, however we don't really get a good look at them.
-Chaya's motivation is a bit suspect - she basically just wanted some nookie. Still, she resigns herself to her exile at the end of the show, which doesn't preclude her showing up again in the future. Unlike previous Ancients, we know where this one is.
-For those wondering, her Ancient hotness was previously a different kind of immortal, playing Nyssa the vampire in "Blade II".
Mark
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, it's too bad we can't just lure all the Wraith ships to that planet...
Though I find it suspicious that the Wraith would show up in force once she left. I mean, they either knew the planet was dangerous and would thus stay away, or they hadn't been before. I suppose it could be a grand coincidence. Fighters see jumper, get destroyed, Wraith decide jumper is a decent target and come to attack the planet. Maybe.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
They were probably closeby already - possibly already in-system. The gang established that from the start, that the Darts were only short-range craft. It was just a coincidence that they stumbled upon a nearby staging area and the planet when Chaya got busy on 'em. The rest of the force shows up to investigate, just in time for her to get back and take 'em out.
Still, there may be a reason for the show to return someday... The planet, while not very advanced, has remained untouched by the Wraith since the Ancients left. There may be artifacts or technology buried under there.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes, might end up being one of those key plot points that they may come back to in the future. I'm guessing the ancients that took a last stand at Atlantis and in Antarctica were Ancients that hadn't/couldn't/wouldn't ascend. I'm wondering if there are more of them out there or they just all ended up over the thousands of years being the forebares of populations of people like Teyla's people. Now they are descended from Ancients - but are Ancients humans? in "The Hot Zone" the virus was made to attack humans and not the ancients. Did the ancients bring Humans from Earth? Is it true the ancients were originally FROM Earth - or was Earth just another outpost? Is Teyla just a 'watered down' Ancient/human mix? Like the others from Earth who posses the Ancient gene?
Loved the Kirk references.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Okay, I've got several lines of thought here.
First, pertaining mainly to "Hot Zone" but reinforced this week too: I could've sworn that all of the people in Atlantis' galaxy were supposed to be descended from the Ancients, and were not actually Humans. As I understand it (having not yet seen seasons 6 through 8 of "SG-1"), the Ancients evolved on Earth millions of years ago, and decided to head out to the Pegasus Galaxy some 10,000 years ago (as seen in Atlantis' pilot episode). Now, I suppose that 10,000 years ago is "recent" enough for the Ancients to have taken a bunch of prehistoric Humans with them on their joyride to Pegasus -- especially considering that 10,000 years ago was about the time that the Goa'uld started taking Human slaves, too.
But at the same time, just why would the Ancients want to take a bunch of Humans out to the Pegasus Galaxy in the first place? Resettlement? Hoping to save some of them from the Goa'uld? Cheap labor of a slightly more benevolent sort compared to the Goa'uld, considering the Ancients' probably-severely-declining population at that point in time?
It just seems that there are a whole lot more questions that are raised if most everyone in the Pegasus Galaxy is actually Human, and not from the Ancients.
I'm deeply disturbed by some of the implications of the end of this episode. Chaya spoke as if the Ancients were continuously watching her, and as if they all had the power to do the same kinds of things that she could, i.e. wiping out Wraith ships en masse. And if the Ancients are still watching Chaya, that means that they're still in the Pegasus Galaxy -- and probably never left.
Which raises the extremely troubling possibility that the Wraith never actually defeated the Ancients at all -- instead, the Ancients just decided to pull out and cede the galaxy entirely.
If that's true, we're treading dangerously close to a sort of "Prime Directive"-esque situation... or maybe something more along the lines of the Shadows/Vorlons conflict. Whatever the parallels, it means that the Ancients are apparently not gone at all, and instead are sitting idly by while the Wraith start yet another culling.
(Of course, I don't mean "troubling" in the fact that "Atlantis" is being somewhat derivative, but more concerning the Ancients' apparent lack of ethics. I'm not jumping to conclusions regarding the development of the series arc just yet.)
This last seems trivial by comparison, but I figured I'd toss in my guess as to what was happening around the planet. Based on Chaya's explanation, it seems that the Wraith tried to attack there ten thousand years ago, during the Wraith-Ancient war. Like that planet full of kids, the Wraith probably stayed away, but regularly sent in a couple of fighters to check things out and see if their potential lunch was no longer guarded. I assume that it was just bad luck that the Wraith and the Jumper crossed paths when they did.
Just how the Wraith knew exactly when the planet was no longer protected by Chaya, though, I can't tell. Maybe they had more ships just outside the system (being a staging area or something like Mark suggested), although I'd originally figured that the Wraith fighters came through the Stargate, just like the Jumper did. I suppose it was just one of those "it helps the plot" coincidences.
That just about sums it up. Aside from the fact that I, too, loved those Kirk references. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I can't work the Ancients out.
They aren't humans but they are. They were around Millions of years ago ("Frozen") but they left the Pegasus Galaxy only 10,000 years ago ("Before I Sleep"). Some Ascended (Oma) some didn't ("Hide and Seek"). Some want to help - Oma and Othara - some don't - the rest of the Ancients. They built the Stargate network - well before the Goa'uld showed up on the scene. They died of a disease? "Frozen" - their last outpost was in Antarctica? Atlantis was originally found IN Antarctica... they moved it to the Pegasus Galaxy... why? Why didn't they just fly the City back to Earth? Or the Milky Way Galaxy? They must have had dealings with the Asgard, the Nox and the Furlings.
*sigh* Is there a guide-to-the-Ancients around anywhere?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, it's not excruciatingly detailed, but here's a fairly good quick overview.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
As for the timing of the Ancients, my personal guess is that they didn't leave our galaxy for Pegasus directly. I'm thinking they actually settled lots and lots of galaxies. Pegasus is just the one where they ran into something that could stop them, and thus where they left their city. And the thing where they're exactly like humans, I'm thinking that has something to do with their "restarting" life in the galaxy after the plague. Maybe it included restarting themselves.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Wait, I thought that all the Humans that SG-1 found scattered around the Milky Way Galaxy had been settled there by the Goa'uld, who had originally taken bunches of Humans from Earth 10,000 years ago? Are you saying that it was actually the Ancients who scattered Humans every which way instead?
(If this is a spoiler for anything in SG-1's sixth, seventh, or eighth seasons, just tell me to wait and see. I just want to make sure that I'm not misinterpreting information that I already heard from earlier episodes.)
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I don't think we've had any indication that any humans in our galaxy are descendents of the Ancients, they all seem to have come from Earth. So I suppose my theory would be something along the lines of: plague wipes out life in the galaxy, Ancients reboot the galaxy, then go wander around in others for a long time. They eventually reach Pegasus, whence they return to Earth after encountering the Wraith. By this point, their own species has re-evolved, i.e. us.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Wait, I thought that all the Humans that SG-1 found scattered around the Milky Way Galaxy had been settled there by the Goa'uld, who had originally taken bunches of Humans from Earth 10,000 years ago?"
Two minor issues there.
One, the Goa'uld took people at many different times, some far more recent than 10 000 years ago. Thus, the reason we have EgyptWorld, GenghisKhanWorld, etc.
Also, it wasn't just the Goa'uld. We know of two planets that were settled by people put there by the Asgard.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It doesn't necessarily mean that this Genesis Device was meant to re-create HUMAN life. We've seen plenty of humanoid and otherwise intelligent species in SG-1 that could have been the result of the machine.
Mark
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, the idea of a reboot would be to recreate things as they used to be, which would probably include humans and everyone else.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
When did they mention about 'reseeding' the Galaxy!?!?!?!?!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
In "Threads" when "Jim" said, "That device was originally used by the Ancients to create life in the Milky Way. Well, re-create it, after the whole plague thing."
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Oops - I just saw the word 'threads' - I'm about to watch - it so I'm not looking any further.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: In "Threads" when "Jim" said, "That device was originally used by the Ancients to create life in the Milky Way. Well, re-create it, after the whole plague thing."
Ahhh OK, now that puts the plague thing into perspective. BUT! It opens up more cans of goa'ulds.
Ancients are Millions of years old. The Chick from Frozen had been there Millions of years? She had that plague didn't she? BUT She was seen only 10,000 years ago in "Rising".
Does this mean that they lived long lives when corporeal? Did they 'recreate life' in the Milky Way (it only seems to be the Milky Way I think - I guess the Asgard didn't get the plague as they were in a different galaxy - and maybe the same with the Nox and the Furlings) only 10,000 years ago!?! That doesn't seem right.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
In "Rising", the caption at the bottom of the screen says "Several Million Years Ago" as the jumper approaches Atlantis on Earth.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Ahh, that's my fault; I got confused as to the dates when the Ancients left Earth and when they abandoned the Pegasus Galaxy.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
So the city was several million years old, but the time-traveller Ancient - guy was worried about Atlantis lasting another 10,000 years??
OK, maybe he was concerned that it mightn't last all that time under water - or even after the wraith attack. ACTUALLY - why didn't the Wraith board/take/destroy Atlantis after the Ancients fled through the gate?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I think the Ancient guy was concerned that it might not last that long without constant maintenance and upkeep and what not. And it could be that the Wraith didn't know the gate coordinates of Atlantis.
Or another thought could be that the gate was hardwired somehow to activate the shield whenever anyone dials in except for an incoming wormhole from Earth...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I mean just diving under the water to Atlantis - or bombarding it from space. The Wraith made it all the way to Atlantis 10,000 years ago.
Ahhh yes, I see what you mean - about the upkeep etc.
Why didn't they just take Atlantis back to Earth Or to some other planet?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: And it could be that the Wraith didn't know the gate coordinates of Atlantis.
I seriously doubt that. Aren't the gate coordinates supposed to be the location of the entire star system, not a specific gate? If the Wraith knew the physical location of the coordinates, they could almost certainly figure out the gate coordinates.
As I understand it, the only reason it's so easy for the less-advanced societies who first discover their gates to end up with so many unsuccessful connections is because they don't really understand the significance of the symbols, and don't have them mapped to the various coordinates/constellations/stars. Therefore, it's important for people like the SGC (or the Goa'uld, for that matter) to have a list of valid gate addresses in order to use the Stargate system.
But once you become a major starfaring race, you can map the galaxy and get the actual coordinates to go literally anywhere that has a gate.
Of course, it's eminently possible that the Wraith are like the Goa'uld, and are just using the Stargates without any understanding of how they really work. Although I've always gotten the impression that the Wraith are a bit more sophisticated than the Goa'uld, and developed most of their technology themselves (rather than just scavenging everything).
Another possibility is that the Wraith simply didn't have any interest in Atlantis, so long as it was abandoned and their enemies the Ancients were gone. Either that, or else Atlantis still has automated defenses that can shoot down any Wraith that try to enter the city (either through the Stargate or by air).
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Why didn't they just take Atlantis back to Earth Or to some other planet?
I've actually wondered that myself, too. I can only assume that by the time the Ancients had been beaten back to Atlantis, there was no possibility of fighting their way out of the galaxy to take the city with them. I assume that even if the Wraith didn't (or couldn't) invade the planet, they'd have it pretty well surrounded with hive ships that could blow it out of the sky if it tried to escape.
Of course, this all assumes that the Ancients truly were defeated by the Wraith. I'm starting to wonder if they really just decided to give up and leave instead...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
It's possible that they didn't want to tip off the Wraith to the existene of Earth and all the life existing there. In "Rising", the Wraith interrogator didn't seem to know about the Milky Way.. It's probable that the Lanteans deliberately left the city behind in a gambit that the Wraith wouldn't then figure out that there's another galaxy out there to infest. They didn't have a sufficient FTL back then, but perhaps the Lanteans didn't want to gamble they'd want to develop it if they knew they had somewhere to go.
Gate symbology has changed over the course of the series. Where it USED to distinctly be a case of constellations delineating coordinates, it seems to have changed to simply being a code. It's basically proven that the gate prop they've been using has never really changed, and only occasionally doe sthe DHD change. Here:
The thing is, if the gates are millions of years old then there's no way they would hvae matching constellations due to stellar drift, nor would the symbols be identical from gate to gate as they are not refuted to be. Every once in a while they have some different symbols, but rarely so. In the SG1 universe, the symbols matching to constellations thing is probably a simple coincidence that Daniel used accidentally to determine how the stargate works.
Mark
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I never quite figured out why they needed him in the first place. I mean.... come on, you have six symbols, you want the seventh, there are only 39 possibilities. The movie was a high-concept thing that wasn't well thought through in some ways.
About the Ancients being defeated, I also have to wonder exactly how they could lose to ANYONE. They can rewrite all life in a galaxy, how can they not just wipe out the Wraith in their entirity from the safety of their city? There has to be more to it.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In the movie, they didn't KNOW there were seven symbols. On the cartouche they found, the seventh symbol wasn't part of the address proper. For whatever reason, no one thought to dial one more symbol afterwards.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Not that that whole constellations-forming-a-cube thing ever made even the slightest bit of sense to begin with...
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Still, she resigns herself to her exile at the end of the show, which doesn't preclude her showing up again in the future. Unlike previous Ancients, we know where this one is. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)