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Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Spoilers, bitches.
This episode essentially wraps up the open plotlines left over from the first season�s finale. In that episode, �Kobol�s Last Gleaming pt. II�, Roslin convinced Starbuck to disobey Bill Adama and take the captured Cylon raider to Caprica to retrieve the Arrow of Apollo; a three-Raptor scouting party including Dr. Baltar, Chief Tyrol, Callie, and Crashdown was shot down over Kobol and stranded; ordered to relieve Roslin of her authority, Lee pulled a weapon on Col. Tigh and was arrested by Colonial Marines; Roslin found herself in the Galactica brig; on a successful mission to destroy the Cylon basestar over Kobol, Boomer M1 (who had earlier botched her suicide) learned for certain that she was a Cylon, and later put two rounds into Bill Adama�s chest.
This led to a situation known as �fucked beyond all recognition�, and considering it took roughly two-hundred and eighty minutes of episode time to �repair� what went wrong in 1/7th of that time, the assessment was quite correct. Things of course didn�t improve with the 2nd season premier � actually, they got a lot worse. And then worse. And then even worse. First, the Galactica inadvertently lost the fleet. Then found the fleet, but got boarded by Cylons. Then Tigh declared martial law and Marines shot up a bunch of civilians and Lee led a rather low-key mutiny on the ship to free Roslin.
There will still be repurcussions from this arc for episodes to come, but I misted when Roslin�s party on Kobol, anticipating a Cylon attack, sent Lee out as a scount, and he stepped around the tree, and aimed his handgun right at �
� his dad.
And there�s Lee, all ready to be disowned for his insurbordination, his mutiny, and instead he gets a big gracious hug and a �Y�know, I never knew until now what my dad meant when he would say �psh, these kids today�.� And there�s Starbuck, looking more contrite then when she told Bill it was her fault (indirectly, anyway) his younger son was dead, and Bill Adama�s all like �Aw, aren�t you cute when you�re not smokin� a cigar and slugging my XO. Shit girl, all�s forgiven. Don�t go stealin� no more ships now ��
And there�s also Roslin�s reunion with Billy, who you�ll remember, refused to accompany her on her secretive flight away from Galactica, unwilling to take further part in an action that could result in massive bloodshed. The real-world explanation is that Paul Campbell had to audition for a pilot and was unavailable � it played well, this way, with Billy coming with Bill Adama as his emissary. I wonder if Roslin had kids � killed on Caprica � and I wonder if, in the wake of the Cylon attacks and the flight for Earth, has come to view Billy as she would her own son.
Bill Adama�s reaction to seeing Boomer M2 is, uh, not unsurprising. �You bitch! I�m going to smash your skull in! Bitch! Oh - oh - my heart! Arrrrr�!�
Boomer M2 is a sly, cunning little con who plays back when bad people try to play her. Too bad for James Remar, who going against Zarek�s orders, plots the double-assassination of the Adamas and tries to enlist Boomer M2 to his cause by telling her Boomer M1 was murdered at the sanction of Galactica�s crew. She�s all like, �Yeah, totally, I�ll take Bill, you take Lee.� Then when he�s like �Now!� she�s like �Eat lead Remar, you motherfrakker!� The lesson contained herein � never try to play a Cylon.
Turns out Baltar doesn�t have a chip in his head which allows him to see Six � so, is it a chip invisible to Cottle�s CAT machine, or is Baltar just out of his friggin� mind? Or is Six, as she claims, really an angel from The One True God? Looking at the evidence, he can�t be crazy � Six has said way too much accurate (if sometimes cryptic) stuff about what later transpired. The mystery deepens � in any case, it was good to see the Julian Bashir lookalike get a bit more screentime this episode, as the last few he�s been stuck in the background doin� not much of anything.
Oh, yeah - Six? With her hair pulled back into a ponytail? Hottest she�s been.
So we finally see the Tomb of Athena we�ve been hearing so much about. It�s a big grassy field. �So where were we before?� someone asks. �The lobby?� Roslin says. See, they were in this big cave-chamber with statues, and Starbuck put the Arrow of Apollo on the statue of Apollo�s drawn bow, and suddenly she, Roslin, Billy, and the Adamas are standing on a big grassy field.
On Earth.
See, it�s complicated, but essentially Earth is located � well, we all know where its located, but the characters don�t � so they figure Earth is located where the twelve constellations which mark the twelve colonies can all be seen. Also, Lee recognizes a nebula which he figures can serve as a directional guide. �That�s a far way out,� Bill Adama observes. On the other hand, now they actually know where they�re going.
Best Scene:
The flight pod, with a ton of Galactica crew and fleet dignitaries present. The deck is scuffed and dirty � interesting to compare with the miniseries when it was polished and clean, y�know? Anyway, Bill Adama introduces Roslin to scattered applause. Before she can speak, he begins forcefully clapping his hands, and the assembled crowd follows his lead. It�s rythmic at first, and then the dam breaks and everyone seems to recognize that things are going to get a lot better and it becomes all freeflowin� and �Woohoo! The Red Sox Win The World Series!�
Things I would have liked to see:
Someone � someone! � be surprised that Helo is still alive. Apollo last episode (granted, he�d only just met Helo before all the shit went down in the miniseries) didn�t say �Oh, wow, Helo, you aren�t Cylon food.� And in this episode, neither the Chief, nor Commander Adama acknowledged Helo in like regards. Also missing: Col. Tigh�s �You gotta be frakkin� kidding me!� when he sees Starbuck. Might�ve been a bit much to pack into the episode � go figure.
Next Week �
What is Sci-Fi doing next Friday that they�re prempting Battlestar Galactica for? I suppose I could check the schedule but � meh � lazy. Anyway, what this means is that it�ll be two weeks to see Xena: Warrior Princess do her �Mean Liberal-Leaning Reporter Demands to Know Why Tigh Ordered Marines to Fire on Innocent Hippies� impersonation, and a month until Michelle Forbes does her guest stint. She�s got her own Battlestar. It�s bigger.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Next week, Sci-Fi's doing their top 6 Stargate episodes that people voted on at their website. It's Labor Day weekend, so I'm not suprised that they're not doing their regular schedule.
Baltar: He doesn't have a chip in his head, but neither do the other Cylons - it's almost indistinguishable from organic stuff. My personal theory is that Baltar IS a Cylon and has been receiving their transmissions.
The scene where they were flashed to the field on Earth really caught my attention. All the colonies have their names based on contemporary constellations. And M8, the Lagoon Nebula, is about where they showed it, but obviously it's not that big and bright in real life.
B.J.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Effin' Stargate marathon.
Oh well. Maybe I'll actually go out and have a life.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Is it only me or if you have a device that can actually transport these people to Earth after laying dormant for so many centuries...wouldn't you think there would be some more interesting MILITARY junk there too?
It always irks me in SciFi when someone comes upon something that hasn't been used in centuries and it magically works perfectly. Crap...I can't let my truck set for a week without it having to really crank over several times just to start and then have to run for a few minutes to operate properly.
I STILL can't shake the feeling this is a herding operation by the cylons. I also have this dark suspicion that the cylons are doing this to "purify" humanity, so to speak. It's pretty obvious that the cylons know exactly where the fleet is. The ONE thing the fleet would definitely need is fuel, so they leave a totally unprotected depot right in their path. Six KNEW that B2 would be there on the G. B2 says that the toasters know MORE about the humans religion than the humans do, yet there are very few cylons on Kobol when obviously B2 knew they were on a quest for the Tomb of Athena. I tell you, its a "rats in a maze" thing the cylons are doing to them.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
They weren't actually ON Earth, it was just a simulation of it.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, uh, that Depot wasn't unprotected by any definition of the word.
I don't think the Cylons know exactly where the fleet is -- although I think they have a pretty good idea its general location. I mean, if the Cylons wanted to "herd" them why would they have come on so strong in "33"?
I was curious about the lack of Cylons on Kobol or around Kobol -- you'd think they'd've sent another Basestar over when their first one got nuked.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Lots to ponder, indeed. One small nit, first. Kara put the Arrow on the statue of Sagitarrius. As all the statues in there were representations of the twelve Colonies, there was no statue of Apollo. I'm still miffed however that they've altered some of the Colony names from the original series (Saggitaron instead of Saggitara, for example).
I never even considered that Blatar might be another Sharon Mk.I, a Cylon with no idea he's a Cylon. Oo, icky. And I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of the physical Six's presence on the Galactica -- or her almost immediate subsequent disappearance. I've seen all the episodes, haven't missed anything, so I'm pretty confused.
What would get this fan out of his seat doing the Dance of Joy when the Pegasus shows up is to see a ship that looks maybe just a teensy bit more like the realGalactica.
--Jonah
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote: And I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of the physical Six's presence on the Galactica -- or her almost immediate subsequent disappearance.
She'd been hiding out in the fleet. She came aboard Galactica after the ship carrying the scientist - can't think of his name - was killed (in "33") -- remember, he'd claimed to have evidence that could've exposed Baltar. Once the Physical-Six's task was done -- ensuring that Baltar's credibility was established -- she probably flushed herself out an airlock or snuck off the ship.
quote:I never even considered that Blatar might be another Sharon Mk.I, a Cylon with no idea he's a Cylon.
I doubt it. If he was, the physical-Six from the miniseries wouldn't have needed to seduce him in order to gain access to the defense ministry's computers. Besides, how could the Cylons have predicted or engineered the chain of events which led Baltar to Galactica? No, he might be crazy, and his Six might be an angel of god or a really well hidden computer chip, but he's no Cylon.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Besides, how could the Cylons have predicted or engineered the chain of events which led Baltar to Galactica?
Actually, now that I think about it, considering Boomer was a Cylon and piloting the Raptor, I guess it wouldn't be a whole lot of luck ... rather, the Raptor's landing site could've been pre-picked, and Baltar could've been waiting. If Helo hadn't given up his seat, Boomer could have said "Hey, that's Adar's advisor! We're taking him!" or given up her own seat.
So. Yeah.
I don't think he's a Cylon, though.
Maybe everyone is a Cylon and they're just too effin' stupid to know it.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I just had a little giggle over a potential plot point -- wouldn't it be neat if the old Centurion in the museum (wherever that stuff ended up getting stored) got reactivated by one of the undercover Replicants...?
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I would hope they wouldn't be stupid enough to actually keep a real deactivated cylon as a display piece. More likely it's either a replica or an empty shell, with all the guts ripped out.
Although it would be fun if they ran across a bunch of the old model Cylons at some point.
I like how the new show is really tapping into the mythology of the original, which ironically is something the original didn't seam to do as often. I'm still pondering what timeframe Earth will be in when/if they arrive. The very fact that the simulation of Earth exists shows that SOMEONE must have come back from Earth, otherwise how would the "Book of Vague Mystisisum" know that the 12 colonies are visible from Earth?
Is it possible that the "Gods" took mankind there, or perhaps it was this one God that six keeps rattling on about. That would make sense, if the other Gods took the 12 tribes away from Kobol to the colonies, while the One God took the 13th to Earth. Or perhaps I'm being too literal and the "Gods" were just the leaders of their time and history has since deified them.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Something like the original Star Trek establishing that the Greek gods were visiting aliens who thrived on our worship?
Like those "gods", the gods of Kobol might have been able to bestow a limited godhead on favoured humans. Then those "Lords of Kobol" started getting uppity, things fell apart, and here we are.
Incidentally, how many thousand years either way can we go before those constellations no longer look like that from Earth? That gives us something of a timeframe, at least. Ten thousand years? Fifty thousand? Yeah, I know that's a lot, but ya gots ta start somewheres...
--Jonah (just wants to hear that vocoded "By your command...")
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
(...Along with the Glen Larson Humming Red Scanner���)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Something that's occurred to me concerning the mono-/poly-theism issues in the show...
Obviously this is a gross over-generalization and over-simplification, but couldn't you say that monotheism has a much greater hold in societies on Earth, whereas polytheism is predominant on the other Twelve Colonies? I wonder if that could somehow fit into the Cylons' plans in any way...
(I also would love to see an episode to feature a cameo return of the old-model Centurions and their cheesy "By Your Command"� voices!)
Peregrinus: Personally, I expect the "new" Pegasus to be even more different from the classic ships than the new-Galactica -- remember that new-Galactica was a very old ship that was about to be decommissioned. If Admiral Caine survived on the same ship she was commanding at the time of the Cylon Holocaust, then it's almost certainly a newer ship. (Although possibly it being an older ship would be an explanation of how it managed to also survive.)
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Spoilers:
Pegasus was undergoing a refit when the Cylons attacked the space-station she was docked at. The explosion of the station knocked the Pegasus away from the station and the crew was able to execute a blind FTL jump.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I can't find the image I saw of the Pegasus. Maybe it was speculation. Anyway, here are some screencaps from the Mini of a Battlestar biting the big one. The Pegasus may look like this. Some people think there are differences between this and the Galactica.
From other spoilers (in case people have missed them here): Admiral Cain and the Pegasus find the Galactica and Commander Adama submits to her authority. Cain is played by Michelle Forbes (aka Ro Laren from TNG).
I think the Cylons are herding the fleet. They aren't making it easy, but they are herding them. Perhaps this is so they can find Earth as well and eliminate all of humanity. If there is a 13th tribe out there, they may pose a threat to the Cylons at some point in the future.
I'm wondering if the battle between the Lords of Kobol is going to parallel the original series battle between the beings of light and Count Iblis, with Iblis playing the new part as the Cylon "one god." Perhaps this is really a battle between these advanced beings and they are using the humans and cylons as pawns.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
If this turns out to be another "ancient, advanced aliens duke it out through their primitive 'children'" kind of plot, I'll be extremely annoyed at Ron Moore. That whole theme has already been done with Babylon 5, Andromeda, Deep Space Nine, and who knows how many others.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Something like the original Star Trek establishing that the Greek gods were visiting aliens who thrived on our worship?
Like those "gods", the gods of Kobol might have been able to bestow a limited godhead on favoured humans. Then those "Lords of Kobol" started getting uppity, things fell apart, and here we are.
Incidentally, how many thousand years either way can we go before those constellations no longer look like that from Earth? That gives us something of a timeframe, at least. Ten thousand years? Fifty thousand? Yeah, I know that's a lot, but ya gots ta start somewheres...
--Jonah (just wants to hear that vocoded "By your command...")
Maybe not quite so literal. More like the Gods, or Lords of Kobol were actual human people, the leaders/founders of their respective tribes and that as history is told, retold, written, re-written, embellished, exaggerated, misinterpreted and mistranslated, these great, yet very mortal people have become raised to the point where they're said to be very literal gods.
From what I've read, some scholars hold similar opinions about the true origins of the legends of the ancient Gods of Greece, Egypt, South America and the like. Not to insult any devout Christians that might be reading, but one could even hypothesise that Jesus of Nazareth was a mortal man, although Ghandi like in his ideas and philosophy, was only later raised to the status of a demigod by historians and religious radicals of their time.
Another, although less significant example could be the deification of Imhotep, two millennia after his death.
Of course that's just an idea. The Lords of Kobol could very well have been "aliens" that cared/ used/shepherded mankind. It all depends on how the writers want to play it. Although in my mind the aliens or "higher beings" angle is a little fantastical for a show that's all about the gritty realism.
Plus the Shadow/Vorlon thing has been done already.
Having said that, whoever the Lords were they were advanced enough to make a tomb with Dolby 5.1 holo-surround that still works after being sat there for a couple millennia. Presumably they also left mankind with FTL technology.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
By "limited godhead" I don't mean immortality per se. More like... One favoured human is bestowed with a gift of prophecy, one with eloquence, and so on. A side-effect is a lengthened lifespan (but only about double or triple normal). I don't know. I'm not thinking about it too hard. They'll tell the story they're going to tell. *heh*
The impression I get -- both from the original series' "Lost Planet of the Gods" and all these new Kobol-centric episodes is that everything was great for some time and then fell apart quite suddenly and rapidly. The last act of a dozen forward-thinking individuals would have been to take their respective followers elsewhere before things went completely to smeg-all -- but not all were of like mind. The statues in the tomb would have been constellation representations, but the message/guidepost/whatever would have been designed to only allow the right person or people to see it. I mean, if you didn't want to keep someone from entering the tomb, whey take the Arrow with you when you left for Caprica?
I also like the notion that maybe Iblis was the one who instigated that hypothetical infighting. *chuckle* And in a cute inversion of the original series take, rather than manifesting to the Cylons and prompting them to abandon the flesh for the perfection of the mechanical, he may have been the instigator of the new series' Cylon rebellion and pursuit of organic perfection...
Tasty, tasty speculation. And -- of course -- probably having nothing to do with what eventually hits the screen. *hee hee*
--Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Sorry about lowering the tone, but, mmm, naked Six. . . How long can one person go on talking to himself before someone starts to show some concern?
Also. . . This may be a complete coincidence. But the gun Remar gives Sharon (obviously a favourite since he has another one tucked away) was a COP .357, a four-barrelled derringer-type pistol. Most well-known use of same having been in Blade Runner, which starred one Olmos, Edward J.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Hmmm...what if it is Earth that did an "uplift" of the Cylons....and their intent is to herd the humans there?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: The scene where they were flashed to the field on Earth really caught my attention. All the colonies have their names based on contemporary constellations. And M8, the Lagoon Nebula, is about where they showed it, but obviously it's not that big and bright in real life.
B.J.
Hmmm... Apollo said something like "look there, in Scorpius - it's the Lagoon Nebula, I recognize it". Problem is, M8 actually lies on Sagittarius as seen from Earth. And I think Scorpius was reversed (as in a mirror image). So, either this series is taking place in an alternate universe with such characteristics, or else, the holographic display (or whatever it was) that showed them the location of Earth isn't working properly... I need to take another look at that scene and check the other constellations too...
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Sagittarius and Scorpio are adjacent, as the former is guarding the latter.
--Jonah
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Six pointedly states to Baltar that the goal is the eratication of Humans. She made it very clear.
For Earth to be responsible for "uplifting" the Cylons would mean that either A)Earth is not inhabited by humans or B)The humans on Earth are gonna be shocked when their "uplift" backfires and bites them.
The Cylons know the prophecies. The Cylons occupy Caprica. The Cylons have these nice mini-van transports. Why couldn't they have grabbed the arrow and opened the tomb?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Because they already know where Earth is?
I don't know how that fits in, but it's the most reasonable answer I can think of.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Is it possible that they were trying to? Maybe that basestar had just arrived when Galactica blew it up, and perhaps the Six that Starbuck killed was retrieving the arrow. But that would be way too convenient timing.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
So what are the names of the 12 Colonies and their corresponding constellations? These are the ones I can remember off the top of my head:
(bonus: As one of the original 12 battlestars, Galactica represents Caprica. Speculation on the others?)
B.J.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Problem is, M8 actually lies on Sagittarius as seen from Earth."
Well, if you want to split hairs like that, a bigger problem is that Adama shouldn't know anything about the Messier system of cataloguing nebulae, though it obviously wouldn't be the first really freakish (and disbelief-jarring) case of parallel development on the show so far.
(The twelve colonies are Aerelon, Aquaria, Canceron, Caprica, Gemenon, Leonis, Libron, Picon, Sagittaron, Scorption, Tauron, and Virgon. That will be one powerup, sir.)
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I don't think they know where Earth is. I think they know it exists and that they need to find it if they want to wipe out all of humanity.
Gives them a reason for herding them along.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Six pointedly states to Baltar that the goal is the eratication of Humans."
No, she says that she's with Baltar till "the end of the human race." One, there's no particular motive attached to that statement, and two, sometimes things end because they're destroyed, but sometimes they end because they turn into something else.
Survivors: 47,855
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "Problem is, M8 actually lies on Sagittarius as seen from Earth."
Well, if you want to split hairs like that, a bigger problem is that Adama shouldn't know anything about the Messier system of cataloguing nebulae, though it obviously wouldn't be the first really freakish (and disbelief-jarring) case of parallel development on the show so far.
(The twelve colonies are Aerelon, Aquaria, Canceron, Caprica, Gemenon, Leonis, Libron, Picon, Sagittaron, Scorption, Tauron, and Virgon. That will be one powerup, sir.)
Given Roslin's comment that the names of the Twelve Colonies originally were the same of the Zodiac constellations, that could mean they were derived from those of the constellations (and not the other way around, as was implied on the original series). If that's so, it could also mean that this series is set in the future as my friend suggested once, and that Earth is in a development state comparable to that of the Twelve Colonies. Furthermore, as someone already mentioned, the "holo-map" of Earth (to give it a name) implies that someone had been there already in order to set it up on Kobol. Now I'm thinking maybe some time in the future humans went from Earth to Kobol first, then when things went wrong there, they departed, some to the Twelve Colonies, some others returning to Earth. That would explain the "parallel development" issues... making them something like "continued development" rather than "parallel", I guess.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Did anyone else think that Six, in her relaxed, sweatpants and ponytail look, acted a lot like Starbuck? I mean, beyond just having a similar hairstyle.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Yes. I thought it was an image of Starbuck at first. Especailly how it happened right after Starbuck was mentioned.
True, saying the end of the human race can be taken in more than one way. But with a Cylon saying it, I think the worst.
The constellations were named after the ancient names of the colonies. It's possible Earth retains the ancient names because they were separated from the rest of the colonies and didn't know about the drift in language. It's still just as likely the Colonists brought the names with them from Kobol and not the other way around.
But yes, for the star map to be there means they knew some way what the stars would look like from Earth. Either someone came back from there, they knew were Earth was for a long time before colonization or else they are really good at stellar cartography and were able to speculate/project where the stars would be as seen from Earth.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The 13th Colony (Earth) was the only colony that could see it's 12 brothers, according to the Sacred Scrolls. Roslin mentioned that the shapes of the 12 constellations were on the old flags of the colonies.
So it does seem likely that Earth is much more than just the lost colony. It may be the origin of the Lords of Kobol.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Hmm... now that you mention it....
I may be totally lost on this.
Earth could be the foundation after all.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
At the end, they arrive on Earth and find R. Daneel Olivaw and in a metallic voice he says....
"By...Your...Command..."
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: The 13th Colony (Earth) was the only colony that could see it's 12 brothers, according to the Sacred Scrolls. Roslin mentioned that the shapes of the 12 constellations were on the old flags of the colonies.
So it does seem likely that Earth is much more than just the lost colony. It may be the origin of the Lords of Kobol.
That's more or less (up to 99% or more) what I had in mind, and I thought of mentioning it in detail today... glad to see I'm not the only one that noticed the implications (plus, your post saves me the work of typing all that myself ).
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: At the end, they arrive on Earth and find R. Daneel Olivaw and in a metallic voice he says....
"By...Your...Command..."
Well, certainly, this search for Earth (especially now that they found the holo-map) has been reminding me a lot of Foundation and Earth...
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
As I don't have the series on DVD, could someone with reference or a better memory than I hunt down specific mentions of the Earth/Kobol connection(s)? I'm beginning to feel that perhaps the gods of Kobol hit Earth first, brought along some human worshippers to Kobol, then when things fell apart and the gods all died or whatever, some humans went back to Earth while the rest went on to found the twelve Colonies...
If that's the case, than Terran humans could indeed be in any developmental stage after all.
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm pretty sure the bulk of those connections are from this very episode.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The Earth Origin theory might also link the actual Greek and Roman gods to the (apparently real) historical figures in the Scrolls. What if the classical gods in the Mediterranean were the Lords of Kobol, and left Earth in some long forgotten time?
What was the timeline again for the colonies' ancient history? When did they leave Kobol? Is it known how long humans lived in harmony with the gods on Kobol?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:What if the classical gods in the Mediterranean were the Lords of Kobol, and left Earth in some long forgotten time?
I think that's a very likely theory -- or at least, a plausible one.
I don't think there's an established timeline for the ancient history of the colonies ... I don't recall any mention being made of when Kobol was abandoned.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And we're also straying into Stargate territory here - "the Gods existed, and were aliens (OK, probably not this bit, but you never know), and when they left they took a bunch of humans with them to populate other planets."
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I thought Earth was the "Lost Tribe" of Kobol. The fabled "Thirteenth Colony". The "Colony" bit making me thing it was established at or around the same time as the other 12.
As for the stellar projections, if you visit the 2D-3D Starmaps thread you will discover Flareites with clever enough stellar cartography to show you starmaps from alternate perspectives. Also Starry Night.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Balaam,
I think what folks are suggesting is that thousands upon thousands of years ago, the "Gods" fled Earth for Kobol, mayhaps because of natural disasters. Then, thousands upon thousands of years later, one tribe decided to try to return to Earth instead of going with the rest of the colonists to what was - until the Cylon attack - the Twelve Colonies.
I mean, look, somehow someone from Earth got in touch with someone on Kobol about the location of the planet ... not to mention the name of the planet. Or maybe they made it all up. Or something. I don't know.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The scrolls of Pythia are 3,500 years old, I think, if I am remembering right.
Couldn't the Kobolians already know where Earth (and for that matter the other twelve colonies) was, before they went to live on it?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
They certainly had at least our equivilent level of technology -- possibly a bit more. It isn't out of the question that Kobol's space agency sent out long-range probes with an eye towards colonizing other worlds in the event over-crowding and/or enviornmental disasters overtook the planet.
The "map room" may have been based on images sent from Earth by a Kobolian rover of some sort.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Considering the scrolls begin with the words "life here began out there", that seems an OK assumption, unless, when they were written, everyone had forgotten where "out there" actually was. And the exodus happened 1500 years after that, so...
SF histories or futures without clear timelines totally vex me.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: The "map room" may have been based on images sent from Earth by a Kobolian rover of some sort.
If that were the case only, why would the original Twelve Colonies' flags have included the images of the constellations as viewed from Earth (and not from, say, Kobol, which would be a more logical choice)? (Certainly, dialogue from the episode implies that the night sky on Kobol doesn't look like that on Earth)
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote: If that were the case only, why would the original Twelve Colonies' flags have included the images of the constellations as viewed from Earth (and not from, say, Kobol, which would be a more logical choice)?
Well, a big deal was made about how the twelve constellations could be viewed from Earth. So maybe using them that way is intended as a tribute to their long-lost cousins?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Here's something interesting to consider, though: because of galactic drift and other stellar movements, constellations do NOT stay static, and change over a period of thousands of years.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, they'll obviously have to recalculate unless they find a DHD, then.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Although speaking of archeological investigations, I wonder what happens now, as far as the location of the fleet goes. There are Cylons on Kobol, but a whole planet filled with things you can eat and air you can breathe is worth fighting for, a little, I think. Not to mention the potential of more caches of information and/or technology, like the Tomb of Athena. I'd also want to take a look for things that might be elsewhere in the system.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Here's something interesting to consider, though: because of galactic drift and other stellar movements, constellations do NOT stay static, and change over a period of thousands of years.
That depends on how many thousands of years you're talking about. In 5000 years the Big Dipper will still look a lot like it does now. 100,000's another question.
In fact... Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
If Earth was the "13th" colony you would logically assume that if the colonies were not founded simultaneously, that Earth must have been the last founded.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I wouldn't say last founded, just because they refer to it as number 13. When making a list, someone has to be #1 and someone has to be last.
There were 13 original state in the U.S. (from the 13 colonies). All of them would like to claim to be first. If, for some reason, one state or colony was cut off completely from the other 12, I can see how everyone would start referring to it as the 13th, no matter where in the order of colonization/statehood it was.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Or even if it wasn't cut off. Sort of like how the commentators on Fox News like to rib Canada with the title of the 51st State Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Herb:
Easy enough to solve. Just look at the U.S. "statehood quarters" series. Delaware was the first colony to ratify the Constitution, thus becoming the first state. If the other colonies wanted to be the first state, they shouldn't have dragged their heels.
Mucus:
I object to that on common-sense grounds. I've often heard that term applied to Canada, and it's just plain wrong. They are in fact the 51st through 63rd states. Although those numbers may get bumped up a bit if Puerto Rico, Guam, the Virgin Islands, or any of our other holdings get in first... And I'm not even going to bring up Mexico, with its dozens of states. Yick.
--Jonah (here's to the United States of the Americas!)
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Now back to BSG. One thing to remember is that these scriptures are oldoldold. And the Exodus probably happened some time even before that. Even a 100% factual account is going to lose something over transcription and changes in the language(s) over thousands of years. So the description of Earth as the "13th Colony" might be dead-on accurate, or completely wrong. All we can really be sure of is that someone on Kobol had either been to Earth or had the ability to know what the constellations looked like from there in order to construct the Tomb.
Incidentally, why was the Arrow taken to Caprica? And I'm stroking my chin thoughtfully about the possibility of a connection between the maker/owner of the Arrow and the callsign of our CAG...
--Jonah
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote: Incidentally, why was the Arrow taken to Caprica?
Y'know, the tomb was probably first constructed by the "Gods" almost immediately upon arrival on Kobol from Earth. As for why the arrow was taken ... well, perhaps after the tomb's construction, the arrow was moved out of the Apollo statue and kept elsewhere -- another, generic Apollo statue? When the colonists were fleeing Kobol, someone grabbed the arrow (possibly only as a memento of the Land of the Gods) and took it with.
quote: And I'm stroking my chin thoughtfully about the possibility of a connection between the maker/owner of the Arrow and the callsign of our CAG...
More like, "Wow, that Lee Adama's a really good pilot ... almost god like, really. Hmmm. Let's call him 'Apollo.'"
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
$$$$$Spoilers$$$$$$$$
Lee has it taped to the nose of his Viper in future episodes. "It's my call sign, my arrow." Except not really.
Basically it sounds like the humans that came to inhabit Kobol came from elsewhere. Whether that is Earth or not is debatable.
So were they "transported" to Earth or was it just a projection. We didn't see them leave the "map-room." I expect a fair number of questions about their origins and where they are heading could be answered with a thorough forensic/archeological examination of the tomb. Like Simon I am curious about specific things in this system.
I experienced similar frustrations with the miniseries and the crew not utilizing science to uncover potentially vital information.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Snay -- once again Saggitarius =/= Apollo. The only archer in the Zodiac is a centaur. Apollo was not a centaur.
So what I was getting at is... It's called the Arrow of Apollo, but it fits on (was part of?) the statue of Saggitarius. Granted Apollo was a patron of archery, but why was his Arrow in the Tomb. As he was also prophetic, might he have known what would eventually happen in the here-and-now? More interesting hints can be found here.
While I'm at it, some historical edification on the inspiration for the Cylons can be found here. Incidentally, the main site has been one of my favourite BSG resources for some time. A little browsing of the sections and articles can be most edifying, but I just want to direct attention to the section(s) on the dead Larson/Moyer and DeSanto/Singer projects for those who might not know about the messy road between Galactica 1980 and the new SciFi series.
And perhaps the most painful (for me) "what might have been", this is what I was hoping would actually get made. *sigh*
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Hmm...
quote:Apollo was the god of music (principally the lyre, and he directed the choir of the Muses) and also of prophecy, colonization, medicine, archery
Prophecy and colonization? What if Apollo was the Lord of Kobol that led mankind to the 12 colonies, that would explain how the arrow ended up on Caprica (he took it there) and why there (might) be a statue of him in Athena's tomb. Apollo + the 12 tribes on mankind = a depiction of the exodus from Kobol and the arrow shows the way the other lot went.
One thing though, if that was Athena's tomb, then where was Athena?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Death is a little more fluid a concept for gods, and we're still not convinced there were any real Lords of Kobol, are we?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Why build a tomb for someone that isn't dead or never existed in the first place?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a gravesite somewhere in the middle of nowhere for Captain James T. Kirk, a fictional character who not only never died, but also never existed in the first place?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
yeah, on the planet Viridian.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Or the craggy stretch of Earth that posed for Veridian.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
There's also a stone marker in Riverside, Iowa, noting that JTK will be born there in another couple centuries.
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Slightly different situation methinks.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: There's also a stone marker in Riverside, Iowa, noting that JTK will be born there in another couple centuries.
--Jonah
Why do I have the feeling some nut and his wife are going to go there to give birth?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Rev:
quote:Slightly different situation methinks.
Yes, but when you think about it, if the Colonists held their Gods to these high standards -- why not build a tomb for Athena?
I mean, my whole point was, Jim Kirk is a fictional character who was never born & certainly never died -- yet there are memorials to his birth AND death!
I mean, god, if people'll do that for Kirk, what would a society which revered their gods as much as the Colonists did, why wouldn't they build tombs for their gods?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
For one thing, because gods are supposedly immortal?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes, plus - you just try sticking a Tomb of Allah in your back garden and see what happens.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Also the tomb is on Kobol, home of the gods, the implication being that it was built the gods, especially if we take Boomer's bit about Athena topping herself by diving off a cliff literally.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
of course, the Tomb of Athena might not actually be where Athena's body was kept.. that might just be the name given to it over time, because it looks like a tomb and is related to Athena.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Greek gods are very specifically not immortal, at least not in the sense of being able to live in the mortal realm forever and ever no matter what. Sure, they pass into the underworld and live on there, but then so do you.
No idea if anyone ever built a "Tomb of Cronus," though.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, we don't really know what they did with his body after robo-Teal'c shot him.
Oh, wait.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I'm sure they just stuffed his carcass down the laundry chute.
As for the non-Stargate Cronos, wasn't he imprisoned in Tartarus, rather than killed? One would think that one would require the other, but as I recall Tartarus was more of a hold all pen for the nasty types that Zeus didn't want roaming the Earth than an actual afterlife kinda place.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Tartarus is hell. Some stories put Cronus in there, others, if I recall correctly, have him in the paradisiacal Elysian Fields.
But both of these places, among others, are in Hades, which is as afterlife as you can get. If you want to argue that the existence of an afterlife, especially one you can maybe come back from, rather mutes the whole notion of death I won't disagree with you, but that's the size of it.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I was never clear on the exact nature of Tartarus. Somehow I thought it was the deepest darkest level of the underworld, the foundations of the world (Gia?) if you will and that Hades had the bit right above that. Mind you it's been a while since I read up on the subject so I won't be surprised if it's just my wandering memory.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Well, even Greek mythographers themselves weren't clear on the exact nature of the underworld, since it sometimes consists of three distinct layers (Elysion, Hades, and Tartaros) and some other times just of Hades, with Elysion and Tartaros being regions in Hades, so, erh, if you're planning to go there, bring a map. B)
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