I guess the show just wouldn't be "Battlestar Galactica" without a Commander Adama ...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Curse you, Snay, that's exactly what I was thinking when the rank pins were presented, too!
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Curse me? You could've just said, "Holy crap, Snay and I think alike! Therefore, GREAT MINDS REALLY DO THINK ALIKE!"
Then you'd pause, and ammend that to: "Dammit. He's a dumbass, so dumb minds really do think alike! Curse you, Snaaaay!!!"
**
If I served in the Colonial Fleet, I'd be whispering about some favoritism there, I would.
**
Also, after Cain, Fisk, and Gardener, if I was Lee? "Uh ... no thanks. Why don't you give these to Colonel Tigh?"
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Okay, so serious commentary now:
I suppose, first, it was supposed to be 100% obvious that the whole incident was a Cylon trap from the very beginning. It seemed that it was just intended to reinforce the dramatic tragedy of the entire story. I'm not sure exactly how I feel about it, because the plot device of the "Peter Principle" (a person being promoted to one's level of incompetence) is all too common.
It might've been necessary, though, because it seems that the writers are building a theme of "The Beast" being something like a cursed ship. If Starbuck is supposed to be a screw-up, then the Pegasus is the mother of all screw-ups!
One possible plot hole: If the engineer-commander-dude was not a people-person and liked to run things like machines, then why wasn't he doing his job and obeying orders?
I have to admit that I was a little bit surprised that Apollo was made the commander of Pegasus, or that he was promoted all the way up to the Rank of Commander, since it wasn't suggested that Colonel Fisk or whats-his-face got promoted, either. I have a feeling that there's going to be some cries of nepotism in upcoming episodes. And I also have a feeling that Lee is not going to get along well with the Pegasus crew. They're not going to be able to see past his last name, and figure that he's nothing more than a stooge to fill in for his old man. (Of course, what's-his-face did give Lee the conn during the battle, and Lee was able to hold it together enough to hold off the Cylons so they could repair things and escape.)
Other tidbits...
How about those heavy cannons mounted on the Pegasus bow? It helps explain in part how the battle went so well in "Resurrection Ship", since it means that the battlestars have the sheer kinetic firepower to leave the Cylon capital ships seriously hurting, assuming the battlestars can survive the long-range pounding. I also would assume that the Galactica used to have such weapons, but that they were removed as part of the pre-decommissioning process.
As for the politics... geez, Baltar, way to do a very public backstabbing like that! Even Tom Zarek has better class than you do. (Of course, we all know that it just happened to be the issue of the moment that Baltar chose to take advantage of to make a huge splash and gain attention.) Once again, Richard Hatch gets a very short scene, but a very important role. He needs to have a little chat with Dirk Benedict some time...
Finally, the question of "right to life" versus "freedom to choose"... It figures that Baltar would choose the totally selfish side. And I think that's the best way to sum it up in the circumstances that the Colonials are in � it's simply selfish to choose an abortion, considering the needs of Humanity as a whole. Assuming Baltar was right � the Human race will die out within 18 years � then babies must be protected at nearly all costs. Collective survival is far too big of a concern to worry about individual rights. Certainly, the need for collective survival can't be taken as a carte blanche for trampling any and all rights, but in this case, I'd say that the benefits are solid and obvious.
(Coming below: speculation based on the teaser for next week.)
. . .
Next week: Angry Boomer returns again. Looks like we're going to be adding a third major/recurring copy of Sharon to the mix! Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:since it wasn't suggested that Colonel Fisk or whats-his-face got promoted, either.
Gardner was referred to by rank as "Commander", so Adama promoted him. I don't know the rank pins well enough to know if Fisk was wearing a Commander's pins when he was murdered, or if he was mentioned as 'Commander Fisk' in the episode.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I thought the whole abortion thing, while interesting in theory, wasn't really. . . a practical concern. That is, I doubt abortion on its own would be statistically important. (Not to mention that the only extra people this will produce will be to parents who don't want them.)
If, as stated, population growth is now a primary concern, than making abortion illegal isn't going to cut it. They need to remove women from high risk roles, since sperm is much easier to come by than eggs, not to mention wombs; and perhaps even make insemination mandatory. In which case Baltar's rhetoric might take on an ominous truth.
Having said that, I thought this episode was awesome, though by jumping ahead a month they seem to have rushed Dee through the grieving process.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I also really liked the apparent hurt on Six's face during Baltar's "The Cylons hate us for our freedom" speech.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yeah, I notices Six's expression, plus Baltar seeming to look directly at her during that "the Cylons hate us" comment. Who knows whether he actually believes that or if he was just spouting bullshit for the audience.
Concerning the abortion issue, you do have a point, Sol, but I think that falls under my previous carte blanche comment. Certainly forcing women to have babies is extreme to the point of making us just like the Cylons (re: "The Farm"). Okay, so this girl doesn't want her kid. I'd bet that there are thousands of couples in the fleet who would love to have a newborn child to take care of. ...Well, hundreds, anyway, considering the economic issues plaguing the fleet.
Besides, if the girl was four months pregnant, that means the kid was certainly conceived after the Cylon attack, which means that she had to have known the consequences and the needs. Regardless of any other circumstances, I think that just aborting the pregnancy was an incredibly stupid and selfish thing to do. It's not just about freedom or principles, it's just plain selfish.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I get the impression birth control isn't terribly popular among Geminonians.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, but clearly it will be to that Geminonian.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: I don't know the rank pins well enough to know if Fisk was wearing a Commander's pins when he was murdered, or if he was mentioned as 'Commander Fisk' in the episode.
(And, yup, after last weak week, this was a welcome change, even though it was obvious that "It's a trap!" Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Also -- I liked the Tommy Gun in the Cain's old quarters aboard Pegasus.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Oh, yeah. That too. It shouldn't be there, obviously, but, yeah, it was nice Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:One possible plot hole: If the engineer-commander-dude was not a people-person and liked to run things like machines, then why wasn't he doing his job and obeying orders?
He's an engineer, they tend to think they're right most of the time. Soldiers obey orders, engineers tend to go with what they know...or in this case think they know. He knew Thrace and her theory was full of it and he knew Adama was wrong, hence the disobedience.
quote:How about those heavy cannons mounted on the Pegasus bow? It helps explain in part how the battle went so well in "Resurrection Ship", since it means that the battlestars have the sheer kinetic firepower to leave the Cylon capital ships seriously hurting, assuming the battlestars can survive the long-range pounding. I also would assume that the Galactica used to have such weapons, but that they were removed as part of the pre-decommissioning process.
Or they're still there but they didn't have any of the heavy ordinance ammo for them until Pegasus showed up. I can't say for sure but I think Galactica was indeed throwing high calibre rounds during the Ressurection Ship assault. Also I got the impression that they mostly picked up the anti-fighter flak rounds at Ragnar. We know they have nukes, but it's been made clear they don't have many to spare, certainly not enough to throw at every Basestar that jumps in front of them.
quote:Once again, Richard Hatch gets a very short scene, but a very important role. He needs to have a little chat with Dirk Benedict some time...
From what I've read it looks like Benedict is persona non grata, at least as far as his successor is concerned. Apparently he said some unkind things about the new show and Katee Sackhoff in particular. Don't know what was said, but apparantly Sackhoff wasn't terribly flattered.
quote:Finally, the question of "right to life" versus "freedom to choose"... It figures that Baltar would choose the totally selfish side. And I think that's the best way to sum it up in the circumstances that the Colonials are in � it's simply selfish to choose an abortion, considering the needs of Humanity as a whole. Assuming Baltar was right � the Human race will die out within 18 years � then babies must be protected at nearly all costs. Collective survival is far too big of a concern to worry about individual rights. Certainly, the need for collective survival can't be taken as a carte blanche for trampling any and all rights, but in this case, I'd say that the benefits are solid and obvious.
Sticky subject, at least I gather it's a sticky one over in the states which is probably why the writers included it in the show. In the very unique situation that is the Rag-tag fleet, the more births the greater the chances of humanity's continued existence, which is oddly opposite to our terrestrial situation where the problem is over population. Anyway, I can see that any enforced law concerning birth control has to walk a very fine line between the needs of the population at large and the rights of the individual. Lest they stray into the sort of thing we saw in "The Farm" or the equally disturbing idea of eugenics and arranged genetic pairings. On the one hand, yes in this fictional situation it's probably a good idea to ban abortion on anything other than medical grounds (although that's a sticky grey area all by itself) that should be balanced by a legislated support system to protect girls like the one featured in this episode. For starters if she's under genuine threat (we never did find out what her family is liable to do to her) there should be a mechanism to relocate her within the fleet and secondly, if the mother truly is unwilling then there has to be a competent adoption system in place.
Of course if humanity does survive there's always the danger of overpopulation, which is just as threatening when there's only so much living space on board the ships and only so much food and water.
Without know the exact figures it's hard to know what's more of a likely hood given the inherent death toll of a mobile population in a constant state of war with an outside force. There's the natural birth and death rates to consider; are there allot of old people in the fleet? How many children die due to lack of medical assistance? Is there a problem with sterility on ships with poor reactor containment or inadequate or damaged shielding from interstellar radiation? I think we'd have trust Baltar's assessment (assuming he wasn't bullshiting Laura to drive her to a decision opposite to the stance he intended to make.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
A couple of additional ...
1. Cottle was apparently running an illicit abortion clinic.
2. Nice Tommy Gun. Did I already mention this?
3. I think Gardner might've been trying to BE a bit more reckless when he jumped the ship -- he wants someone to cut him "a little slack." The Viper pilots get away with this kind of crap all the time, why can't he? But since his career has been in engineering, his intuition lead him in the wrong direction.
4. If I were Adm. Adama, I think I would seriously considering integrating the two crews. Many of Pegasus officers & crew seem to hold themselves superior to Galactica's complement.
5. Nice, quick ref for "Stinger." Wasn't he Pegasus' CAG before Cain relieved him in favor of Starbuck?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
A quick glance would seem to indicate that Fisk had Commander's pins.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:I think we'd have trust Baltar's assessment (assuming he wasn't bullshiting Laura to drive her to a decision opposite to the stance he intended to make.)
Since Roslin made the issue of abortion a "survival" issue, Baltar took issue with it on the altar of freedom.
However, if Roslin had made her decision on abortion on grounds of freedom, Baltar would have taken issue with it on the grounds of survival of the species.
Baltar didn't care which choice she made -- abortion is most likely just a devisive an issue in the Fleet as it is here on Earth. Roslin might lose or gain support by taking one stand over the other, and Baltar could expect only to gain support (because since he'd just started running, he would've have had much support to begin with).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So, the commanders of Pegasus have been :
1. a homicidal megalomaniac, 2. a criminal, 3. incompetent with a persecution complex, and 4. promoted through two ranks and right over a third in the span of a month.
And, given the trend, Lee will be dead within a few weeks.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As John Heard made his way to the engineering deck, I was thinking "Well, I hope the show lets him at least be a competant engineer" and then when he was, I was thinking "Oh, come on, now he gets to die a hero?" So apparently I'm impossible to please. But, seeing as how he wasn't killed by the mafia for illicit dealings and as far as we know never authorized any prisoner abuse, we ought to cut him some slack.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I just thought it was cool to see the Vipers using Pegasus' lower *upside down* landing deck.
B.J.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Um... Pegasus was upside-down herself at the time, B.J. Remember Commander Lee ordering the ship rolled to protect the already-damaged top from further impacts?
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But we clearly see Vipers landing on both sides, is the point.
Does that work, though, I wonder? I mean, all the hanger stuff has to be in the space inbetween. Is there enough space there for it all to fit?
And this has nothing to do with this episode, but how awesome would it be for Marc Alaimo to guest star? IMDB reports he hasn't been in anything since DS9's series finale.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
As soon as I saw that John Heard was the new Commander, I thought "Dead!"
And, while on the subject, "The Captain's Hand?" Whose hand? The 'Captain' of the Pegasus, actually a Commander? Is it because in his hands, the ship was nearly destroyed, but it was his hands that saved her in the end? Or is it a reference to Starbuck, who is an actual Captain? What's wrong with her hands?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: But we clearly see Vipers landing on both sides, is the point.
Does that work, though, I wonder? I mean, all the hanger stuff has to be in the space inbetween. Is there enough space there for it all to fit?
And this has nothing to do with this episode, but how awesome would it be for Marc Alaimo to guest star? IMDB reports he hasn't been in anything since DS9's series finale.
I imaging there would be some kind of rigging to rotate the vipers after they go up the lifts into the maintanance deck...hmm, hard to know what sort of gravitational forces are at work here. We know from the pilot that the landing deck does have gravity, I wonder if it's possible for that inverted deck to have the field inverted or have it as a nul field with magnets on the vipers' skids so they don't float away. Either way it's tricky.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I dunno. We haven't seen that degree of gravity control so far on the show... All internal decks, including the landing bay, hangar deck, and launch facilities, seem to be pulling down only. Haven't seen any null-grav areas. If the launch tubes take their cue from TOS, they are gravitised, too...
I imagine the closest we get to multi-vector gravity would be the ill-fated agro ship from the miniseries. Each of the domes seemed to have its own "down", and the command and engineering sections probably did, too, but the central spine was probably null...
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Screencaps of the battle, anyone? I ould like to see Pegasus' forward BFGs...
I thought for a second that they'd be the "main battery" turrets seen above the doors, the same kind that Galactica has. Galactica herself may yet have larger cannons like these, if they haven't been removed. Or alternatively, they simply don't have the means to manufacture such munitions to use them...
Mark
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
BTW - 49,584 Survivors at the head of the episode.
So, but there was suddenly a space battle with the desperate humans engaging the vicious, freedom-hating Cylons. And me likey. No, but I'm excited because that meant a little less humanity fucking itself over, and frankly I get my fill of that on the news channels.
I knew it was going to happen, that Lee was somehow going to wind up commanding Pegasus, but I was glad to see that it was because the ex-engineer Commander couldn't give up his old job. That sort of jibes with my own experiences with highly technical people. It was cool to see an engineer actually doing some engineering even if all he was doing was cranking (with a spanner!) some coolant valves until some lights turned green. I wasn't clear on why exactly no one else had thought to do the same, but I'll give them the benfit of the doubt. The heroic death thing was sort of ridiculous as it seems he could maybe tell Goggles at the door to open it up for a minute so he could catch his breath and then close it, and maybe "Have some medics on hand because I'm gonna run out of O2 and pass out, but I'll probably be alive for like 4-15 minutes if the resuscitator is even half awake." No, but with the heroic death, OK.
The Roslin and Baltar politics game is cool. The Zarek stuff was also cool. I loved the timing of Baltar's announcement. They sold that completely as far as I'm concerned. I just wish they'd picked a less hot-button issue maybe. And yeah, as Simon already mentioned, I'd suspect that statistically we're not talking about a major population factor. That said, the very real catering to (possibly manipulation of?) the religious Geminonian (oh, like you know) demographic was certainly appealing. Mary McDonnell continues to take things up a notch with her reluctant announcement of her new policy and esp. her "You got your pound of flesh" speech.
Lee and Dualla: yawnstretch. Starbuck still fucking up ship operations by being an insolent asshole (despite her briefly, shallowly introspective journey in episode Scar): so yawning. Inexperienced commanders brashly disobeying a direct order from a superior as well as the advice from his second in command to even send a single scout thereby jeopardizing critical and irreplacable pieces of military hardware, placing his entire crew as well as the future of humanity at risk? Oh, c'mon, it's not like he came up in McHale's Navy. Also, dude, it's SUCH a trap... Lee getting promoted to full commander? Er...
Which is to say that I liked it and I was glad to see at least a little Cylon ass-kickage. It may seem to be formula, but it's a formula that hungry, angry babies like me can happily digest.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
On the other hand, say they sent in the force of Raptors Adama planned. Do the Cylons still jump in with three baseships? Because I think a case could be made for going in with as much force as possible and the most survivable ship specifically because it might be a trap.
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: On the other hand, say they sent in the force of Raptors Adama planned. Do the Cylons still jump in with three baseships? Because I think a case could be made for going in with as much force as possible and the most survivable ship specifically because it might be a trap.
ok. The Rapters were captured and pilots killed strictly as lures. Did they assume that one of the Battlestars would take the bait, as opposed to the smarter Reenforced Recon Flight?
Obiviously the Raptors were bugged to inform that something sprung the trap. Would that many ships still jump in had Peggy-sue not gone instead of the Recon flight?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Um, the episode didn't say so I don't know?
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
I can't remember, did we decide whether Vipers have FTL drives? The blackbird had one, I remember.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Well, the Blackbird was an exception. I don't think we've ever seen a Viper jump and if they could, it would limit the usefulness and importance of battlestars as carriers.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I would think that there would be a retrieval ship of some sort. Similar to the Army's M88 or the Navy's DSRV. come in with escort, attach a tow, and away we go. There really needs to be some auxilary vessels on this show.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Didn't Apollo's Viper have one in the Mini? Isn't that how he was able to escort Colonial One? Or was his Viper docked with it each time they jumped?
But yes, I agree. If Vipers have FTL, then why do you need a carrier?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Range, support, repairs...
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
For deep deployment. Do we have any idea exactly what the range of the Colonial military was? Was it mostly confined to the one solar system? If not, how deep did they go? And what did they really have to protect beyond their heliosphere?
My question, essentially, is, wouldn't even a Raptor's limited FTL drive be sufficient to hope from one end of the system to another, if in fact the majority of their stuff was intrasystem? Battlestars (and their range extension) would only really come into necessity over interstellar distances, and what kind of distances could they be traversing and protecting on a regular basis as to require 120 of them?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Doesn't Colonial One only make two FTL jumps in the miniseries? And Apollo was on it for the first one, his father's Viper safely tucked away inside, and shooting down raiders during the second one.
Though, if I'm remembering correctly, that raises a question: why was the ship flying through boring old Newtonian space at all? Why not just jump from Caprica to Galactica and back? Maybe jumps are energy-intensive, but then they don't seem to have a problem with that now.
As far as fighters with FTL drives, if the Blackbird and Raptors can have one there's no reason a Viper couldn't, though they do not appear to have them now. (Well, OK, Vipers probably have no space for it, but, a Viper-like craft.) But even if they did have them, the drives of smaller craft may have shorter ranges, less fuel for jumps, or other drawbacks that would make a carrier a good idea, tactically.
Also, it seems like Vipers exist more for the benefit of the battlestar, rather than the other way around. Granted, they did blow up the resurrection ship, and a Raptor sneakily blew up a basestar, but it seems like once the shooting starts in earnest battlestars do most of the heavy hitting themselves.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Mining operations (the Colonials probably had mined their planets to the limit), outposts, distant listening posts, *possibly* colonies, science missions ...
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
No, I mean there are plenty of reasons to have the big carrier. I mean beyond it just being totally neato. I was just pondering Sol System's question as to why not jump in with max force. If the Cylons had, say, 10 basestars lying in wait with the damaged Raptors, it's likely their trap would have worked and the RTF would absent one Battlestar and at least two main characters.
Would sending the 5 (?) Raptor assault team per Adm. Adama's orders afforded them the ability to better stay in contact while investigating? I'd assume that strung in a line, the Raptors would have the ability to tunnel and redirect communications so as to fight the interference (and maybe that was implicit in his plan). Everything I know about space-fighter tactics, I learned from playing Tie Fighter, and so I assume the 'escort' Raptors would be fitted out with lots of torpedoes and shit.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:in "Pegasus", the CAG mentioned doing an FTL jump with the Vipers and Raptors during his briefing. Could it be that the Mk VII Vipers are equipped with FTL drives, and the Mk IIs are not? I would imagine that if the Mk IIs could jump, they wouldn't have to land on the Galactica before they could bug out every time the Cylons attack.
Of course, we've now seen the MkVIIs scrambling to get back on the deck of the Pegasus before they jumped. There's gotta be some limitations to the Viper FTL.
B.J.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Fuel, probably. If you burn all your gasoline in manuevers against the Cylons, you won't have any to power the FTL engines.
And yes, I know the Colonials don't use gas, but they do use, what, Tyllium, and it's supposed to be "similar" except mined from asteroids.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Like Irn Bru. . . Oh, wait, that's "Made in Scotland from Girders."
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Also, it seems like Vipers exist more for the benefit of the battlestar, rather than the other way around. Granted, they did blow up the resurrection ship, and a Raptor sneakily blew up a basestar, but it seems like once the shooting starts in earnest battlestars do most of the heavy hitting themselves.
It's possible, and there's certainly more evidence of that with the Peg's latest display. However, the battlestars are still modeled after modern aircraft carriers and RDM's experience with them. So, at the very least, the models of the battlestars exist and are built around their fighter complement, which makes me inclined to continue thinking of battlestars in the same light.
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