Okay, so let's pick up the pieces,, up the ante, and set things up for the new year without hitting a reset button. God, I miss these openers on SG-1 - we haven't had something like this for a while, and even though it's not as shiny as it once was, it's still a good hour of TV to take us into the new season.
-If Tomin's outfit is any indication, it looks like the Ori forces are FINALLY getting some sort of uniform. The whole medieval motif has been overdone somewhat of late on both shows, but I've mostly been criticizing the notion that there's been little real organized "look" to the Ori followers.
-I guess I'm finally getting used to the Ori toiletships... They're portraying them principally from angles that make them look and move like zepplins or blimps, which is pretty cool. Still doens't stop them from moving like fighters later on...
-Ah-HAH! It was the Korolev, as everyone knew since February. In addition to Mitchell making it out on a 302 and Daniel ringing off during an abortive attempt to transport a nuke to an Ori ship, there were only six other survivors who were beamed off. No sign of Colonel Chekov, who may have been a survivor, and thus live to lovably annoy the SGC another day.
-The only two workable ships left after the battle were the Odyssey and the Lucian Alliance flagship. Any other ship left can't support any life, and what few survivors are bring ringed to the Odyssey, which can't support that many people despite its size (an issue known from SGA "Inferno" last year).
-No sign or mention of the mis-scaled O'Neill-class Asgard warship! If it was taken out, it demonstrates JUST how advanced the Ori are, as the Asgard generally come next in terms of advanced technology.
-Annoyed with Kvasir's delays in fixing the beaming technology on the Odyssey, Mitchell commandeers the WHOLE SHIP to scoop up Sam, who's been floating outside since the previous episode. Machismo aside, isn't there something he could have done without having to move the whole ship? Isn't there at least one 302 in the fighter bay? Well, at least we get to see some great VFX and a good example of just how big these things are.
-The Lucians have also gotten more uniforms, and even rank insignia on their Alliance symbol. Like the Ori forces, they were mostly portrayed as pretty bedragged until now.
-Ah! I just got it. The Ori are trying to emulate the fusion motif from that Riddick Chronicles movie. I guess it works to an extent...
-The Ori have fighters! We don't get a very good look at them, but they look vaguely like a cross between a toiletship and a Wraith hiveship. As expected, they're uber-effective compared to the defenders on Chulak, clearing a path so the toiletship can land like a really big castle.
-The Ori forces have a zat-like weapon mounted on their armor that will stun. Several shots will kill, also like a zat gun. No disintigrate.
-After another plan to beam explosives onto an Ori ship fails, Bra'tac decides to ram one with his own mothership. How characteristic of Bra'tac is this? He loves dying free, but why take everyone down with him without even speechifying to them about it?
-And when the Odyssey beams everyone with a beacon off in the nick of time, what about the remaining crew? Too bad for them, huh...
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Responses...
-- I highly doubt that Colonel Chekov made it off in time. Daniel and Mitchell had excuses, but Chekov would've been on the bridge, and I doubt an experienced commander in his position would be that eager to escape (at least not in the five seconds (max) it took for the Korolev to vaporize).
-- I saw the new Lucian Alliance uniforms, too. But did anyone notice the very Trek-style pips on the left chest? The head honcho had four pips, while the extra behind him had two.
-- Concerning Mitchell's rescue maneuver, I expect that an F-302 isn't equipped for low-speed maneuvers either; Earth just hasn't had the need (so far) for such high-precision activity. What would a fighter grab on to Carter with, anyway? A grappling arm would probably puncture the space suit and negate the whole purpose of a rescue mission.
-- I really loved the new architecture for the inside of the Ori toiletship (love that name, too, Mark!). Wonderful to see something new to replace the gold Goa'uld insides, and something much more original than the basic medieval settings of the village.
-- I'm quite relieved to see that Vala is keeping her trademark sense of humor and wit, even in the face of extreme angst. I'd been slightly worried that Vala would end up turning sad and angst-y like her last major sci-fi character. ("And there will be no conquering of any more worlds, young lady, or else!" HA!)
-- Any bets that the next time we meet Adria, she's going to have personal forcefields or something?
-- Concerning the Asgard, I'm not surprised they were vaporized too... it seems that the Ori forces are effectively working just on brute force.
-- Also, did you notice just how friggin' BIG those toiletships were? I'd say their width is at least three times that of a Ha'tak. (It was kinda hard to get a sense of scale just from the SuperGate itself...)
-- Concerning the Korolev, how many times is the show going to give the poor Russians the shaft? They were unwitting fodder for Replicators, victims in "Watergate" and that tomb episode, they got their DHD blown up while it was on loan to the SGC, and now that they sold the original Gate back to the USA in exchange for a BC-304, that gets blown up in its very first action! (Personally, I think it would've been more interesting, dramatically over the next season, to have the SGC not have direct access to its own cruiser full-time, but have to cooperate with the Russians for transportation and the like.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It would be neat to see the "SG1 alliance" employ some desperate measures against the Ori. Like Replicators with a limited life span or soemthing equally morally ambiguous.
You'd think that some scary combonation of Aincent Drones and Replicators could be achieved.
The toilet ships do seem to move a bit too much like fighters (in orbit no less!)..and the LAND! I;m thinking they're actually just floating at ground level- something that large would just sink into the ground or cause massive damage when setting down methinks...
I get a very Trek-meets-Trade-Federation feel to the toilet ships. Their color and that deflector thingie (beam emitter?) at the front of the ship looks a tad Federation-ish.
Watching SGA, I thought some nifty Wraith vs. Ori battle could have been staged: how yough would a Wraith Queen be if she sucked dry an Ori Fryer?
Would the Wraith know anything about the Ori? Adria almost certainly has something in her databanks about the Wraith that could be of use...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: how yough would a Wraith Queen be if she sucked dry an Ori Fryer?
Man, I normally try to ignore spelling mistakes on Flare, but this is just too much. Heh heh heh ... oh man Posted by Chris (Member # 71) on :
Something that caught my attention was the interaction between Adria and Daniel... I was expecting just a tad more hostility. Sure, she wanted him dead because he was planning to abduct her and was unwelcome on the ship, but seeing as how he's a (twice) de-ascended Ancient I should think that she would really, really hate him...?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
It's conceivable she just didn't know. She's not omniscient, and the Ancients presumably made him just a regular old guy again when they descended him.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Holy crap those toiletships can move when they want to! And I'm not suprised that they can land on a planet, seeing as how they were *built* on a planet.
I was a little intrigued at the way they look on the inside. There's not much apparent advanced technology. Looks like 99% of the ship was built using medieval tech, and the priors probabaly provide the remaining 1%.
It was funny to me when they finally decided to scoop Carter up, seeing as how that was what I was yelling at the TV for the last 15 minutes! (So what happens when your TV starts to listen to you?)
And exactly how many times has Daniel either been killed or nearly killed? That guy's got more lives than my cats!
Personally, I hope Chekov made it off the ship, since I really like his character. Of course, SG1 has been making a habit of offing minor characters I like, so maybe I'd better shut up. Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
BTW, was the background music a bit loud, or was that just me? I found the dialogue a bit hard to hear sometimes.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The scoop up Sam scene reminded me of Star Trek TMP - with V'Ger coming up on Epsilon IX and the person was stuck outside in a suit.
Daniel at least has the good sense to make use of technology that is around him... the Gate at the end of season 1 etc.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The scooping scene was more like Spock's thruster suit mindtrip through V'Ger, IMO.
Or the ridiculous thing that Sheridan did in Thirdspace. Anyone remember that movie? No? GOOD!
Mark
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Maybe Daniel & the adult Adria will come together in some big glowy light-merge and create a NEW ascended being that is half Ori, half Ancient ala Decker/Ilia only they will actually DO something.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Daniel is not, nor has he ever been, an Ancient. He was an ascended human. I mean, Anubis ascended, too. You wouldn't call him an Ancient, would you?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Give him a break, this whole Ancient thing is getting pretty confusing.
I mean, as far as I understand it. Ancients evolve to a human state before we do on Earth. But then we evolve as the second evolution of their form. Then some of us get transplanted to Pegasus when the Alteran sect of the Ancients build Atlantis and some other Ancients go to some other galaxy. Then the Alterans come back whereupon they ascend and become what we know as Ancients and the other Ancients become Ori. But as the second evolution of their form, we have the ancient gene...as do some people in Pegasus. But not all Ancients ascended, some stayed behind to inspire stuff like Merlin.
...and there's a plague in there too...sigh.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The scooping scene was more like Spock's thruster suit mindtrip through V'Ger, IMO.
Or the ridiculous thing that Sheridan did in Thirdspace. Anyone remember that movie? No? GOOD!
Mark
Thirdspace is indeed craptackular, but the exact scene was done in Crusade to save Captain Lockley in her damaged Starfury. It's the same scene but -with zero drama or tension, I should say- SG1's was sooo much better for the acting/directing.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hang on - I think the Ori and the Ancients were 'together' BEFORE the Ancients came to the Milky Way Galaxy weren't they?
Or they did indeed leave the Milky Way for the other Galaxy? Are the humans from the other Galaxy indeed HUMAN or like the 'humans' of the Pegasus galaxy descended from the Ancients before they ascended? I assumed the 'humans' in the Ori Galaxy were descended from the Ori before they became ascended Ori!?!
*boggle*
And what is the difference between 'Lanteans' and 'Alterans'?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Okay.
The Alterans were from some other galaxy, and looked pretty much like us. Some left to run around and explore the universe. Some stayed behind and became the Ori. Those that left became known as the Ancients. They seem to have run around pretty much everywhere, and may well be the ancestors of all the not-quite-human races we've seen, including the Nox and the Asgard. There seem to have been a number of groups. Some ascended during that uberplague in our galaxy millions of years ago. Others were on earth a few tens of thousands of years ago, in Atlantis. This group (the Lanteans) left to explore a new galaxy, ran into the Wraith, and stopped there. But there could well be other groups still running around.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wait a minute, wait a minute - that Lanteans were on Earth living on Atlantis (or they just used this to go to the Pegasus Galaxy?)... there was no Wraith when they got there - they must have seeded the Pegasus galaxy and then the Eratis bug began to evolve into the Wraith drawing on the traits of the 'humans' that were there.
OR was the Pegasus Galaxy empty and Lanteans moved in and spread throughout that galaxy and the Eratis bug fed on them. Some didn't ascend - some are essentially around as the descendents like Tayla and Ronan's peoples.
OR was the Pegasus galaxy seeded like the Milky Way using D'kara or something similar in the Pegasus galaxy?
And how did that seeding work? The "Alterans" were nearly all wiped out by the plague so they reseeded the galaxy with Humans or just Earth? I thought the idea was that Earth was the home of humans throughout our Galaxy.
This is getting confusing!!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I'm pretty sure the timeline goes something like this:
long time ago, galaxy far away: pre-split Alterans evolve.
(long time ago minus some time), galaxy far away: Alteran society splits into into Ori and Ancients, Ancients ousted by Ori, Ori eventually ascend to Pah-Wraiths and become all-evil, seed their galaxy with believers.
(long time ago minus some more time), Milky Way: Ancients fleeing from galaxy far away settle Earth (Terra), begin seeding life, dump stargates everywhere, form big alliance with Asgard & Nox & Furlings (?), etc.
X million years ago, Milky Way: plague starts spreading across galaxy, Ancients initiate ascension research, some Ancients ascend, most are wiped out, others escape to Pegasus galaxy in Atlantis but not before rebooting Milky Way via big glowy thingy on Dakara.
X million years ago, Pegasus galaxy: surviving Ancients repeat Milky Way seeding process, accidentally (?) let Wraith evolve on one of their seeded planets, fight massive war, are driven back to Atlantis.
10K years ago: Ancients in Pegasus galaxy leave behind Atlantis and escape back to now-rebooted Earth, mix with local population (ie. second evolution of their form) causing Ancient genes to enter human DNA.
5K years ago: Goa'uld show up, transplant primitive humans from Earth all over Milky Way.
present day: you are here.
("Lanteans" is just the cutesy Wraith name for the Ancients in Pegasus.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
THANKYOU!!
I was wondering how the rebooting 10k years ago would give enough time for new evolution of the species.
So the "Lanteans" who came back to Earth never ascended - or most probably Altarens were ascending all over the place since the original Ascension to avoid the plague.
1. Who caused the plague? 2. The chick who was found frozen near the Antarctic gate had the plague did she not? So either it's a different plague or they LIVED with the plague over millions of years cause she was from 10k ago.
The Alterans/Lanteans must have been long lived to have Merlin around ~1500 years ago. Maybe a small branch survived on Earth somewhere?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Well... we know from Merlin that at least some of the Pegasus refugees ascended (and, in his case, later descended again) after returning to Earth, but a lot of them probably didn't, influencing Roman and Greek mythology though generally staying out of history's way.
"Who caused the plague?" is one of those story-threads the writers like to keep dangling until they can figure out how to properly tie it up.
Her Frozen Ancient Hotness found in Antarctica had been there for millions of years, not thousands, as she can be seen in SGA's pilot episode when Atlantis flies off for greener pastures.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yeah - and I'm fairly certain that Atlantis was sent off to Pegasus before the plague thing wiped everyone out. Didn't the slightly-less-hot hologram in "Rising" explain all that?
There's a link to the Ancients' article from there.
Mark
[ July 18, 2006, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Ok...so more confusing than I thought.
Questions:
1. Do we know for sure that the precursor to the Ori Ancient split took place away from Earth? (Hazy memory from a Merlin episode?)
If so, then its a real coincidence that we evolved to "the second evolution of their form".
2. What were the Ancients seeding exactly in our galaxy and in Pegasus? Like were they tossing around bacteria, a disabled version of themselves that we know now as humans, or full-blown pre-ascention Ancients?
3. Biologically, how different are they? I mean they have funky healing powers and whatnot. But if Cartman's 10k years ago point is correct, then we share genes with them not out of convergent evolution but because we actually did the nasty with them? (That would make us the same species even, biologically speaking)
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Okay...if the Ancients ascended to become glowy-white jellyfish.... and Daniel ascended to become a glowy-white jellyfish... wouldn't that put him in the same class as the Ancients? Given that the Ancients did the horizontal Lambada with the humans present, they mingled and became at least Half-Ancient. So TECHNICALLY, anyone with the gene is part Ancient. Would this mean that it is easier for them to ascend too?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not necessarily. I'm told I'm about 1/16 French (and otherwise Vietnamese), and to my knowledge I don't have a higher resistance to wine than any other Asian guy.
IIRC, The ATA gene occurs at a frequency of about one in 16,000, and itself is one gene amongst many thousands. It by no means suggests that ascendency is easier as a result - typcially ascending seems to be more of a mental and spiritual thing than anything of the flesh. Daniel apparently doesn't have the ATA gene (which is why they kept going with O'Neill, who does and who therefore can fly puddle jumpers, etc.).
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: 2. What were the Ancients seeding exactly in our galaxy and in Pegasus? Like were they tossing around bacteria, a disabled version of themselves that we know now as humans, or full-blown pre-ascention Ancients?
Aincent-tards.
I'm still wondering what the Aincents were doing in The Abyss and where the Shadows and Vorlons fit in...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
One more thing about the 'seeding' of the galaxy - are they saying that humans now evolved on all the planets that we've seen (with humans) or they seeded the galaxy with various types of life forms, otherwise that wipes out the entire premise of the Goa'uld and the Tau'ri etc.
The Asgard are from another Galaxy, and we know nothing about the Nox and the Furlings, really - and the other aliens we've seen have been the 'altered-humans' Jaffa, those two from the first Vala episode who were waiting for the shipment, the Unas, the Fishy guy from "Fire and Water", the crystal aliens from season 1, the aliens with the freaky nostrils/mouths that were the basis for some Native American mythologies and the glowy aliens from "Crystal Skull" oh and the aliens from the 'life-boat' and 'space race episodes' who interbread with the human population - they were the 'Hebrideans' or something oh and I suppose the Goa'uld parasites themselves
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Nope, they're still saying that the Goa'uld populated most of the Milky Way. The Ancients seeded some planets, but not all; alternatively, it's possible that they seeded plenty, but wiped everyone out with the big reboot device on Dakara. Either way, the Goa'uld still came across Earth about ten thousand years ago, decided that skin looked better on them than scales, and started exporting the primitive defenseless population en masse through the stargate to a thousand more worlds.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Reboot device was used to wipe out everything after that plague MILLIONS of years before - wasn't it?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So...how exactly did the Goa'uld first develop and come to power then? It might be cool if they were an Aincents experiment to preserve their knowledge while the young races matured, but things went wrong...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
ANCIENTS
(The Goa'uld first possessed the lizardy bipedal Unas who also lived on their homeworld, presumably something they'd been doing for as long as both species existed, I guess, and then they found the stargates, and then they all swapped their Unas bodies for human ones even though the Unas are like twenty times more robust. Maybe they started out with some unascended Ancients, since they wouldn't be able to operate some of their tools with Unas bodies, and moved on to humans from there. Just why an aquatic neuroparasite would need to evolve intelligence in the first place is left unanswered. )
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
How aquatic neuroparasitist of you!
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
quote:Just why an aquatic neuroparasite would need to evolve intelligence in the first place is left unanswered.
I suppose anything in control of a body like a human or an unas could benefit from being intelligent.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Andrew, I don't think that means what you think it means.
Omega: Well, yeah, but how would they come by it in the first place? Symbiotic evolution, perhaps. But what did the proto-Goa'uld get out of taking over land animals? It would need to be something complicated, since if they were just hitching a ride there are easier ways to do it.
(Yes, I realize that biology is the unpopular stepchild in science fiction, TV science fiction especially.)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, in terms of evolution, a water creature (read: Goa'uld) being able to latch on to land animals for transportations helps said creature go farther, spread its genes to other bodies of water that it would ordinarily be cut off from. The ability to burrow into the host's body could've developed as a means to leech off the resources of the host for longer trips away from water (since the Goa'uld wouldn't be able to easily eat while sitting on the shoulder of some prehistoric Unas). As for the ability to totally control the host's neurological functions, well, that makes the need to remain around water completely unnecessary.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As I said, there are much easier ways to hitch a ride, and you don't have to be sapient to take advantage of them.
But perhaps brain tissue is just a whole lot less resource hungry on P3X-888. (I totally looked it up.)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:As I said, there are much easier ways to hitch a ride, and you don't have to be sapient to take advantage of them.
Sorry, I meant to address that too. For the sake of argument, you could also say that early on, the primordial Unas didn't object to the early Goa'uld hitching a ride on their shoulders, and so they might've just inched their way up or something. But as the Goa'uld became sentient, and parasitic, they would've needed to develop a quicker means to attack and latch onto their hosts.
On a related note, why the frell didn't they ever make such a big deal of discovering the original homeworld of the Goa'uld? It could've been a huge breakthrough to capture some specimens (that probably were separated from the System Lords for a few thousand years, but genetically still mostly identical). But we never went back to or even heard a mention of P3X-888 again!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yes we did, once or twice, though it was not the object of the episode. Though I agree, it was disappointingly not exploited as it should have been. Still a pretty dangerous place, though.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Andrew, I don't think that means what you think it means.
Discriminating against aquatic neuroparasites?
It *WAS* just a joke.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe life between the Goa'uld and the Unas started off as symbiotic and as the Goa'uld evolved it became more parasitic. As we've seen the Tok'ra are symbiotic relationship - maybe it was a genetic throw-back that lead to the Tok'ra.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The Tok'ra are symbiotic because they choose to be. The only real difference between the Goa'uld and the Tok'ra is that the Tok'ra do not suppress the mind of the host. Physically, though, they're the same.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Maybe someone tweaked the Goa'uld for symbiosis to take advantage of their healing abilities and the parasite developed intelligence slowly from that point...returning to the homeworld as a spawning ground?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The concept of genetic memory might affect the evolution of intelligence in unusual ways. If a dog was born with thousands of years of doggie experience, it'd probably be one smart dog. And then there's the fact that queens seem to have some control over the development of their children.
Though I'm still liking the idea of the Goa'uld as an artificial species...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: The Tok'ra are symbiotic because they choose to be. The only real difference between the Goa'uld and the Tok'ra is that the Tok'ra do not suppress the mind of the host. Physically, though, they're the same.
MAYBE though this is the true form of the Goa'uld - i.e. they originally existed as a symbiotic relationship with the Unas until some parasites realised they could forceably control their host.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That's a very interesting theory... dunno how reasonable it is, but it's very interesting nonetheless.
Remember, the Ancients already had their own healing powers, and they were already very long-lived (to the tune of millions of years, right?). So why would they need the Goa'uld? The only answer I can think of is that, if they WERE artificial, then they were created not for the Ancients themselves, but for the Humans instead.
It's possible that the Goa'uld were actually the result of some kind of genetic experimentation (maybe the Asgard?), but that doesn't exactly make sense either. What would they be used for? They could've been created or sent by the Ori, but the Ori didn't know that the Milky Way was inhabited with Humans.
No, I think that the Goa'uld probably evolved naturally, as was originally proposed. There just don't seem to be any likely candidates for creators.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
In addition to Mitchell making it out on a 302 and Daniel ringing off during an abortive attempt to transport a nuke to an Ori ship, there were only six other survivors who were beamed off. No sign of Colonel Chekov, who may have been a survivor, and thus live to lovably annoy the SGC another day. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)