quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:
It has Galen. That makes it worth seeing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
If you use the same formula over and over again, it does not work.

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Okay, I'll just delete my entire recipe library now. Obviously I need to make things different every single time.

Sure, the resolution to the Shadow War was a bit sudden, but the whole POINT of it was that after the "clean" ending of a conflict, there's a whole big mess that needs fixing afterwards, and stuff you thought was solved comes back to bite you in the ass.

I sometimes think so many people complain because a show (not just B5, but anything) is so good, it's close to being "perfect" from some people's point of view that they fault it for not getting that last bit just right.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I will be the first to credit B5 for what it did, and what it pioneered. I *liked* B5. However, I have not been able to get on board with anything he's done since. One reason among many is the aforementioned lack of originality in anything he's written after B5.

And I have always abhorred his crappy, cringe-inducing dialogue, which I've posted about before. The worst Voyager monologues never got that bad, unless it was some black and white episode which was SUPPOSED to be that bad. If he didn't insist on total creative control, he'd have a check or a balance in there somewhere. But no, so no.

Mark
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
I dunno if you're including Crusade in that "everything after B5" comment, but if so, I don't think it would be (entirely) fair to criticize the development of the story. Crusade never got the chance to find its way, and it was the subject of outside interference from day one.

(Dialogue, I suppose I can understand for occasional scenes. But what about G'Kar's speeches, Delenn's musings, or Londo's posturings? There was some incredible stuff in there. Also, don't confuse bad writing with bad acting. A poor actor � and B5 occasionally went to the bargain basement for hiring � can easily torpedo mediocre dialogue.)
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
I seriously doubt TNT's "more sex & violence" edicts would have altered the fundamental plot ideas of Crusade, which are STILL the same as everything else JMS has done on TV.

And no, I'm not questioning the acting of the principal characters at all - they very often managed to change a lousy monologue into something quite eloquent. It's the dialogue, pacing, and blocking that annoyed me so damn much. Remember this scene?

[Somewhere on B5, a PRIMARY character talks with a group of extras and the ONE GUY who speaks for them.]

One Guy: We think this, and we ain't changing our minds!

Primary: Oh yeah? Well, you should think this instead, because of this, this, and this, and don't forget this, and of course there's this, and these things too, and my pappy always told me to wash my own socks because it might serve as a barely relateable analogy to the current situation someday. So, to recap, you should do this instead, because of this, this, and this, and don't forget this, and of course there's this, and these things too, and my pappy always told me to wash my own socks because it might serve as a barely relateable analogy to the current situation someday.

One Guy: Okay, fine. But we insist on these conditions.

Primary: Sure. I'll put down a favorable condition of my own, then I'll tell a short joke to my subordinate who's been silent this whole time and we'll all walk away. Cool?

One Guy: We agree. Until next time.

[Exeunt]

What REALLY, REALLY gets me though, is that all too often, the one guy who's speaking for all the extras speaks, and makes decisions for the ENTIRE GROUP, WITHOUT EVEN CONSULTING THEM! And very frequently, the one guy won't even look at his buddies or acknowledge their say. Go ahead and check, you'll see it happens ALL THE TIME. JMS apparently subscribes to the "one guy has a telepathic link to all the other guys, precluding the need for them to do anything but nod" school of scriptwriting. It just plays out so awkwardly and unrealistically, that I fast forward through them these days when going through the DVDs. It certainly doesn't help when they get a mediocre, non theatre-trained actor to be the one guy, and it wrecks the whole scene.

Mark
 

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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Okay, Galen is a technomage. If you don't think technomages are awesome, you need to go read "The Passing of the Technomages" trilogy. You will learn.

quote:

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Each one had a deceptive early plot that gave way to a deep dark major plot arc that always involved some previous evils or whatever.

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Well, in all fairness that's the basic nature of a lot of epic stories. There's a war, usually a repitition of a past war, against an enemy that was defeated but not destroyed. There's a prophetic hero, who starts the story in an everyday but in some way unsatisfying setting, and who eventually bears some wound or mark from an encounter with evil. There's the mystic figure that sets the hero on his quest, but is removed from play so that the hero can come into his own. Babylon 5, The Matrix, Harry Potter, The Wheel of Time, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, and even Final Fantasy all share many of those elements. Yes, Straczynski likes his epics. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
That's what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with it, and that's why B5 works save for the lousy dialogue. But when all you get from the guy after that is exactly the same thing, it runs out, as it has. QED.

Mark
 

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Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
*raises a hand tentatively* Me, I wouldn't mind seeing Valen's wanderings after he disappeared from Minbari history...

--Jonah
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Aah, a philosophical warrior vagabond with cranial protrusions. Fulfilling the legend, if you will, of his achievments as known in the present by his people.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I can see this going either way in regards to quality. Legend of the Rangers gets a bit of an unfair bashing since it was supposed to be a pilot. While it wasn't 1st class entertainment by any stretch of the imagination, it was at least as good/bad as The Gathering, which is all but unrecognisable from the show that followed.

As far as Crusade gose, I agree with Mark that TNT's interference wouldn't have made the dialogue any less pedantic or the plots any less familiar, but as with B5 I think the problems inherant with any JMS show would have been overcome, largley by an engaging plot, well performed characters and a slightly naive sense of overblown epic drama.

I think the same is possibly true of this new project, but of course only time will tell.
The main obsticle, in my mind, is that while B5 was (arguably) the best Sci-fi on TV at the time (in several ways) it has since been superceeded by the likes of Galactica, Farscape, Firefly and I suppose Lost.
Now they're either going to try and compete with those later shows and be critisised for "not staying true to it's roots" (we all know fans abhor change) or do what they've done before over and over and end up being dismissed as out dated.

Can we say Kobayashi Maru?


P.S. Based on that AICN post, the fact that Woodwood is back as Galen is enough to get me watching this. He was always the most interesting character/performance out of the Crusade cast.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"That's what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with it, and that's why B5 works save for the lousy dialogue. But when all you get from the guy after that is exactly the same thing, it runs out, as it has. QED."

So, you seem to be saying that, if someone does the same thing that has been done by other people hundreds of times before, it can be great. But as soon as that same person repeats the theme, it becomes crap. Not because it's been done before, but just because that person has done it before.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
No, it's a problem when that's ALL the writer can do. It's like M. Night Shaymalan movies that way.

Mark
 

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Or Dan Brown novels. Notice there hasn't been anything since Da Vinci Code? Know why? Because everyone went out, read his other 3 books, & found out he used THE EXACT SAME FUCKING PLOT in ALL of them. Even the exact STRUCTURE is the same. Now that he's famous...shit, can't use the same gig.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
First shots of the new B5 cgi!
Link
Well ok, ONE shot that's oddly familiar and a title card. But still....pretty nebula and Epsilon 3 finally has some sense of scale.

Speaking of scale, are Mimbari War Cruisers really that HUGE compared to Centauri Battleships?
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
Sweeeet! Nice to see they've got some new models to play with, since many of the originals were lost.

As for scale, I was going to use merzo.net, but their B5 sizes are all screwed up. But yeah, that looks to be a bit much.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
The Sharlin was always supposed to be really big.. More than a mile high, right?

Anyway, I'm glad to see some VFX material after all these years. The "Rangers" stuff was really more of the same stuff from the early 90s - improved, but not my much. That, and IMO I've never much liked all the crazy background they use. It may be NASA imagery, but it's all false-colour, post-processed stuff that was altered to look pretty! In real life, it's not even visible like that!

Mark
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Sure, but I thought the Centauri cruiser was bigger by comparison.
Perhaps it's just the way the old CGI was composed, the true scale of those old meshes is harder to judge than the newer footage.
BTW, anyone know that JMS is using the same effects house that works on Galactica & Atlantis? Bodes well methinks.
As for the VFX on LotR, it looked a little too 'crisp' for B5 type effects. Can't put my finger on it but there was something not quite right about the effects on that movie, more like a computer game FMV somehow.
Though the Grey council hologram bit looked really good, even if the space photography stuff wasn't quite strictly realistic, it was more convincing than the old photoshopped Hubble images.
 

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Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison.xhtml

Many of my B5 figures were taken directly from the official charts released by the VFX company; they used to be on ISNnews.net, but they've apparently been taken down. When I get back home tonight, I'll try to find a few more of my old sources. (Edit: The old charts are still found in the Internet Archive.)
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
I've always like the Brakiri cruisers the most. Even though they are smaller than the Sharlin and blow up all the time they look so nice, like a B-17 bomber wing in space.
And minbari girls are cute. I don't know why I think that, with the baldness and ridges, but they just seem so unobtrusive and content.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I agree - on both points.

1. I think it's because the Brakiri are unusually smooth and green!

2. They always cast cute, petite women... I don't recall seeing a 'Big Bertha' type Minbari woman!

Who are the entire members of the Non-Alingned Worlds and why don't we see the ships of some of the 'lesser known' members? Or are they all represented?
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nim:
...And minbari girls are cute. I don't know why I think that, with the baldness and ridges, but they just seem so unobtrusive and content.

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quote:

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Who are the entire members of the Non-Alingned Worlds and why don't we see the ships of some of the 'lesser known' members? Or are they all represented?

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I imagine most of the lesser known are such because they aren't as powerful/weathly/developed as the likes of the Brakiri, Drazi, Vree. So they probably don't have any cruiser sized warships and what they do have may be purchased from one of the other League/Alliance worlds. Of course the real reason is they only had a limited number of decent meshes to use in the battle scenes and at the time couldn't invest in designing & building any new ones.

There is president though, as the Pak'ma'ra were seen to be flying Drazi Sunhawks, which would probably mean they were purchasing them.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Hmmmm Babylon 5: The Lost Tales????? JMS is really pushing the whole Lord of the Rings "referencing" isn't he?

The first two History of Middle Earth books were called the Book of Lost Tales parts 1 and 2.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I'm pretty sure the title "lost tales" has been used MANY times before Lord of the Rings was published in various contexts.
However JMS's love of Tolkien's work and his occasional borrowing of Middle Earth names is a matter of record.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
I just realized a big reason for my Minbari-like is because Mira Furlan looks very much like Diane Keaton in the 70's. "Love and Death" is my favorite Allen movie. She's on fire there. And it crax me up.

Regarding Tolkien, JMS seems to enjoy being heavy on the myth and legend side in his works, I'm sure he's a diehard fan of Arda. I'm glad they haven't used any power artifacts in B5.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
We'll just have to watch out for the Minbari Cruiser Silmaril.

Actually has anyone done a page listing 'links' or 'influences' or 'homages' in B5 to LOTR?

OK this is just off the top of my head:

There is the number thing: The Grey Council "The Nine" - Nine Rings for mortal men doomed to die.

Sinclair, Delenn, Sheridan - the Three - Three rings for Elven lords under the sky.

Is there a "Seven" anywhere? Or a One?

That was just something I thought to mention then - on deeper thought there are a few more - I don't want to go overboard.

The First Ones leaving the Galaxy -- The Elves leaving Middle Earth.

Legend of the Rangers - Lord of the Rings.

Rangers - Rangers (Yes it's a common term)

The Hand from LotR - Saruman who's symbol was the White Hand.

Z'Ha'Dum - Khazad-d�m.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Are you kidding? Mate this is the internet. There are websites out there that catalogue how often movies portray snow blowing in the wrong direction on a Tuesday.

In this case though, first stop for useless trivia is Wiki.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
*edit*
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
"The First Ones leaving the Galaxy -- The Elves leaving Middle Earth."

No, I'd say the Minbari are the elves in this story, older than the humans but mortal, wiser but able to sin and be arrogant.
The First Ones, being immortal, are kind of similar to the Valar demigods and angels, though. And after the destruction of Numenor they did remove themselves from direct involvement in human affairs ever again and raised the coastal walls of Valinor, even the island itself from the water.

But although I haven't seen all the episodes of B5, I can't recall any evidence of there being a higher power on level with Eru, an intangible and omnipotent creator of worlds and races. The closest we come is The First One, I guess (Bombadil slash Treebeard). Resurrecting someone and transferring your life's energy to them is close to godlike, I'd say.
 

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Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
 
Not just The First One, but the First of The First Ones (so not the Second, Third, or Fourth of the First Ones, but The First, who came before The Second, The Third, and The Fourth of The First Ones, because he was The First, and First comes before Second, Third, and Fourth). Bit strange, really, to call yourself The First of The First Ones as if all The First Ones were just One and not More Than One, but then he did live in a giant dark pit surrounded by First Ones who were First (and not Second, Third, or Fourth) but not The First, so we can forgive him that.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Confusing mathematics aside, even Lorien specifically said he cannot create life and what he does do is all about the application of energies (similar to how the Alien Healing Device operates.)

The closest analogy to a supreme being in the B5 universe is the universe itself. This is reflected in the Mimbari belief that all life is the universe's conciousness made manifest and is searching to understand itself. Now if you extend that mode of thinking to how Lorien described his race's immortality then the universe started with only a handful of sentients and later DECIDED that a multitude of short lived individuals was more efficient/desirable for it's purpose.

Having said that, I'd be careful about trying to force analogies where none exist. Clearly JMS was informed by LoTR (among a great many other influences) I don't think it's fair to impose too many direct comparisons.
A good example is in that Wiki article;

quote:

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JMS noted in the DVD release of Babylon 5 that one of his favorite science fiction stories is Frank Herbert's Dune. There may be analog between the Padishah Empire and the Centauri, the Psi Corps or the Bene Gesserit, the Vorlons and the Spacing Guild, the Narn and Fremen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cartman:
Not just The First One, but the First of The First Ones (so not the Second, Third, or Fourth of the First Ones, but The First, who came before The Second, The Third, and The Fourth of The First Ones, because he was The First, and First comes before Second, Third, and Fourth). Bit strange, really, to call yourself The First of The First Ones as if all The First Ones were just One and not More Than One, but then he did live in a giant dark pit surrounded by First Ones who were First (and not Second, Third, or Fourth) but not The First, so we can forgive him that.

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quote:

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Not just The First One, but the First of The First Ones (so not the Second, Third, or Fourth of the First Ones, but The First, who came before The Second, The Third, and The Fourth of The First Ones, because he was The First, and First comes before Second, Third, and Fourth). Bit strange, really, to call yourself The First of The First Ones as if all The First Ones were just One and not More Than One, but then he did live in a giant dark pit surrounded by First Ones who were First (and not Second, Third, or Fourth) but not The First, so we can forgive him that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
Yes, but those guys specialize in the written word. This is TV dialogue!

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And B5 has often been described as a novel for television.

I agree with Rev; if the actors can pull it off, it's great. But not all of them can. It's a problem that every show has to deal with; I'd rather B5 aim high and miss slightly than write for the lowest common denominator! And that's part of why it's such a great show.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Reverend:

In the case of Star Wars, the only reason why it seamed less so in the original trilogy was because it was being delivered by the likes of Ford; who didn't take it seriously, Hamill; who spoke with utter the conviction of the chronically naive and Guinness; Who is...well GUINNESS!

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What about Chewbacca?
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Correction - the line above is spoken by a Centauri, not Sheridan. My opinion still stands - jms writes good dialogue for comics. He does not write good dialogue for TV.

Mark
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I suppose it's a matter of opinion. To be fair though, ALL tv dialogue isn't exactly natural. How many conversations have you had where all partisipants spoke in turn, finished their sentences without any hesitation, stutter, umm'ing or arrh'ing?

Realistic dialogue is hard to write, even harder to perform an cue and damn near impossible to listen to.


As for Chewie, he's an adlibing method actor. ;-)
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
New shots and an article over at CGSociety Link
Beware of spoilers!


...They bite.
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 

quote:

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Lost Tales was scheduled to shoot in 10 days, but he finished in nine. �Having edited all 110 B5 episodes, I know what I�m looking for and I only shoot what I need,� says Straczynski. �Often a director will come in and shoot multiple takes, say �that�s the one�, and then shoot 10 more to be safe.

But if I get it the first time or the second time, I�m done, and we turn the camera around and get the other side of it.� Consequently the crew was usually able to break on schedule or an hour early, meaning they could pre-light for the next day, saving additional time. Warner Brothers was pleased, and the crew was happy because instead of shooting 16-18 hour days, they shot a 12 hour day or less.

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quote:

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Lost Tales was scheduled to shoot in 10 days, but he finished in nine. �Having edited all 110 B5 episodes, I know what I�m looking for and I only shoot what I need,� says Straczynski. �Often a director will come in and shoot multiple takes, say �that�s the one�, and then shoot 10 more to be safe.

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Time and internet cronies have done noting to diminish is ego, obviously.

I'm hoping it wont suck void, but am very much thinking it will.
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Corps, even.

I'm under the impression that it will be the same cruddy dialogue, wooden acting, and marginal production values we've known as hallmarks of B5, WITHOUT the five-year story arc (though you can bet that it will have clues for a future arc jms wants to use this as a pilot for). In other words, it'll be all the parts of B5 we sufffer through for an awesome multi-year story, without the awesome multi-year story.

Download city.

Mark
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
I've always liked the B5 dialogue. Yes, it's a bit unrealistic, but to me it's always been one of the most quoteable series out there.

By comparison, as much as I love Trek, its dialogue (and acting) was always too stiff for me. It's like everyone was afraid the Captain was going to have a conniption fit if someone dared to crack a joke.

If you want to combine realistic, quoteable, and all around great dialogue, I think Stargate and Firefly have to be in that category. I'd include Farscape as well, but I don't think that counts as there was only one human for the most part.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Well, if you were watching any show about a real military organization, you'd probably be bored to tears after 20 minutes.

The military guys I know like, but cringe at themamzing lack of discipline on Stargate and Firefly was a civillian ship, so cant be held to the same standards of conduct at the others.
 

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Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
Yeah, O'Neill was especially insubordinate, but at least he was honest about it!
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
And he CARED about the chain of command too. You knew that every time he said "Sir, with all due respect...", he'd make a senior officer look like a dork right after that.

Also, in one particular episode he DID write up a letter of resignation so he could plant a big wet one on Carter... Right before a time loop obliterated it from ever happening.

Mark
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Release date and cover art for "Lost Tales" has been posted:

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/newsitem.cfm?NewsID=7211

Costco in Canada has been liquidating all the old B5 DVD boxed sets at less than $30 a pop, so I finished my collection. It's just like I remembered - good, not great; horrible, stilted dialogue from almost everyone; and a good story that JMS has cloned for every one of his works since.

Mark
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Eek, not sure I like the cover art, though it does get across the idea of an anthology in that in looks like one of those 3-cheep-movies-on-a-disc type releases.

quote:

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Costco in Canada has been liquidating all the old B5 DVD boxed sets at less than $30 a pop, so I finished my collection. It's just like I remembered - good, not great; horrible, stilted dialogue from almost everyone; and a good story that JMS has cloned for every one of his works since.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:

Only then will I fork out my ard earned currentcy for it (as there's a model kit I've waited a deacde for coming out next month).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Omega:
Or be watching The West Wing's first couple seasons. The dialog kicked ass.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nim:
I staunchly defend the dialogue of B5, I've just had the luxury of watching it from the beginning and while there are things like that unibrow gnome that talks through his nose, the many pearls more than make up for it.

Morewhat, I think Sinclair is one of the most underappreciated and venerable space captains ever. Sure, his laughter may sound like he's been smoking Winstons since age 4, but when he gets angry he's awesome.

There are a lot of good monologues in the first two seasons, more than I had ever known before rebooting. One of my favorites is G'Kar's ant-speech.
First season has the best theme song.

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