Confirming some rumors swirling around for months now, The Master will indeed be back at the end of Doctor Who's third series. According to a report in the Sun (which is not always accurate, but which HAS spilled some major beans before), it looks like The Master won't be too worried about stealing someone else's regenerations anymore:
The Master’s return will be the major twist of the third series, which starts in the spring. But he will not appear until the end.
Sir Derek Jacobi, 68, will play another Who foe — The Professor. He poses as a good guy but the Doctor discovers the truth when The Professor dies and regenerates.
The article also spills that the Master will be played by "Life On Mars" star John Simm, in a role which will presumably arc over the fourth series of Doctor Who. Coolness!
Mark
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Great, next they'll be bringing back Davros
So does this mean that Derek Jacobi is the Master, and then regenerates into John Simm when he dies, or is Jacobi's "Professor" role separate from that?
Seriously, I wouldn't mind having the Master return, as long as two issues are satisfied:
a) There's an explanation as to how he escaped the Tardis's Eye of Harmony in "The Enemy Within" (which probably won't happen, or it'll be glossed over), and
b) as long as he doesn't act like a Roger Delgado/Anthony Ainley Snively Whiplash clone, but instead becomes a credible villain. I think the Totally Useless Encyclopedia said it best in their entry for the Master: "He's nuttier than squirrel shit, and none of his crazy plans ever work."
BTW, not having seen Life on Mars, I did a Yahoo search on John Simm. Apparently, it's not just the Doctor that TPTB want to be a young guy. He even looks like David Tennant...
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I was a bit unsure of that myself - the story isn't very clear on whether Jacobi is the Master who then regenerates into John Simm, or whether he is another Time Lord entirely - hey maybe they're remembering Jacobi's earlier role in "Cadfael" and they're going to bring back the Meddling Monk? :-) I don't think they will gloss over the movie - they seem to have accounted for it in the show's backstory, what with Eccleston being the 9th Doctor and all, and RTD seems to like his references to what has gone before.
Actually I must admit from the trailer at the end of "The Runaway Bride" I thought Mark Gatiss was going to end up being a Time Lord, seeing as he seems to be an old man in one scene and a young man in another, but the dialogue didn't seem to support it.
As for John Simm I can see him playing the Master pretty well, if he can avoid the twin minefields of a) not repeating the Delgado take on it and b) steering clear of the Eric Roberts "Gallifreyan camp" take on the character. As for being young - well, what's the point of regenerating into a body that's old and past it's best already?
While we're on the subject of John Simm though, I feel I have to point in the direction of this excellent advert for the start of Life on Mars series 2. Trust me, even if you're not a fan of the show the ad is worth a look.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Hmmmm... so the rumours about the Face of Boe's message is true...
Where did the Master go during the Time War?? Maybe he isn't a true Timelord anymore?
They can't ignore the movie - it wasn't that bad!
What happened to Byliss from Torchwood - there was something strange about him... he obviously had great control over time... I thought only Daleks and Timelords had the power of time-travel. If that is true can someone explain why Jack Harkness had a timeship?
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:There's an explanation as to how he escaped the Tardis's Eye of Harmony in "The Enemy Within"
Assuming, of course, this isn't the Master from one of his 12 earlier regenerations we've not seen before. If this is a post-TV movie Master, how did he get a new set of regenerations when he'd already used his up and stolen the lives of at least two "humans". Depending on which version of the Eye of Harmony they go with, though, (the movie version inside the Tardis or the series version underneath Galifrey) presumably the Master would have been able to escape when Galifrey was destroyed... If this is a plot detail for the season finale, could this mean the strange Mr. Saxon is something to do with the Master...or even the Master himself.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Mr Saxon isn't strange... We just haven't seen him yet. And while he's probably slightly sinister, I don't think the writers want to have TWO evil prime ministers in a row. It's not like the Admirals in TNG!
The concept of stealing or granting new regenerations is not new. The Master technically had not been a "natural" Time Lord for quite some time prior to the TVM, having degraded his body, mutated it, and stolen several new ones between that and his 13th, Delgado incarnation. Some even suggest that the Monk was a very early incarnation of the Master.
However, one thing that Time Lords tend to stick to is being chronoligically locked to one another and to Gallifrey - through the original series, you generally saw the Doctor interact with the Master, other Gallifreyans, and his home planet in sequential order, short of the multi-Doctor stories (which are generally under extreme circumstances). Thus, he shouldn't be able to interact with any earlier incarnation of the Master for an extended period of time, and I think the writers will erspect that to avoid confusing the majority of new viewers. Most likely, he somehow managed to renew his life cycle, or take over some other Time Lord. Either way, I'd bet money that the reason behind it will tie in to the Doctor's own ultimate extension beyond his 13th incarnation, when they get to that point.
Mark
PS - There are many time-travelling powers in the Whoniverse, including the Cybermen and the Sontarans. However, none have shown the mastery of time as the Gallifreyans, and second have always been the Daleks.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The whole thing about Mister Saxon being significant is that it's an anagram of Master No. Six. Which would mean that Jacobi would have to play Saxon, who's then revealed to be The Master when he re-generates into Simm. But they're being clear, it seems, that Jacobi is playing someone called The Professor - which given some of the Master's previous aliases, could fit in - but in which case means Jacobi can't be Saxon, since why go to all the trouble of establishing the Saxon identity, unless it's a total red herring? Which would be a bit cheeky given the way they laid on the Badwolf and Torchwood references with a trowel, to then say "Ha, ha! Fooled you, there's no significance to the Mister Saxon thing at all!" People would feel a bit cheated if Simm played Saxon, because he wouldn't be Master No. Six, he'd then be Master No. Seven (anagrams, anyone?). And if we see him post-regeneration, and have him identified as Saxon, then he'll obviously escape to plot another day, because he won't have had time to run in elections, and win them, or have tanks shooting down alien spaceships.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Still doesn't explain what happened with the Master in the Time War...
Also - speaking of meeting other incarnations... it'd be interesting if they met an old companion again - and have them go - hey I just met an earlier/later version of you a week ago...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The current series does not have a track record for using anagrams, so until shown otherwise I'm going to believe that people like Mister Saxon and Bilis Manger are exactly as they appear to be. I don't believe that Saxon has been keyed to appear in the third series in any significant role so far - they would have let spill casting details by now.
Mark
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I think they mention that Mister Saxon is going to be important in the commentary for "Love and Monsters" on the series 2 boxset - the implication certainly seems to be that his name (glimpsed briefly on the newspaper the Abzorbaloff is holding before his alien nature is revealed) is one that we're going to see again in the next series, and the mention in the Christmas special would seem to back that up.
The Master's essence could have been extracted from the TARDIS by the Time Lords to fight in the Time War: the Time Lords by and large don't seem to be a very active race ("dusty senators" was how Finch described them, wasn't it?) so it makes sense that they would enlist the services of their more active citizens for tricky missions - and they have something the Master would want to hold over him - basically a "fight for us and get a new regeneration cycle" deal.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If so, it would also suggest a scenerio whereby not all Time-Lords died in the war; suppose: a) The Master, given his freedom etc., pulled a double-cross on the rest of his race just to get them out of the way, and b) some Gallifreyans, expecting this, came up with a contingency plan to survive the apocalypse?
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I think that's very likely. The Daleks, even with their arrogance and absolute certainty in their own superiority, sent a void ship out into nothingness containing a Time Lord prison ship full of Daleks. What's that if it isn't betting both ways on a huge scale? Okay so that might have been creative thinking on the part of the Cult of Skaro (they do seem smarter than the average Dalek) but still, it shows that someone in the Dalek hierarchy considered the idea "what if we lose?" and acted accordingly.
With that in mind I find it unlikely that the Time Lords (who were, I know, in their own way as arrogant and convinced of their superior position as the Daleks) wouldn't have a similar consideration and put a plan in place, especially with their superior mastery of time and space. Who's to know what secret bolt-hole they could have constructed?
As the Doctor said at the end of the last series, "both sides had secrets" - I think the Time Lords might have kept a few from the Doctor.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The "Scream of the Shalka" animation (which really was quite good) suggested that the Master at some point got out of the Eye, and was stuck or programmed into an android body that could not leave the TARDIS or do anything sinister to it or the Doctor. That coudl have played out really neat.
And the TIme Lord high council had already promised a new life cycle to the Master in exchange for his helping the Doctor in "The Five Doctors". He seemed convinced that this would be possible, though the council had every reason to lead him on. Would Flavia have been so deceitful, though?
Mark
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
And of course, who voiced the Master in "Scream of the Shalka"? None other than...Derek Jacobi, which might point to the true nature of his character. Okay so it was a different production, but they have borrowed elements of other stuff (audio plays and novels) before now to put into the new series - "Jubilee" provided the base for "Dalek", the "Rise of the Cybermen/Age of Steel" two parter was inspired by "Spare Parts" and this year's "Family of Blood" two parter is said to borrow from "Human nature". With this in mind it's not impossible that the casting of Jacobi (and possible connections with the Master) is a nod towards previous works.
I think Flavia - and the Time Lords in general - could be a pretty deceitful bunch so yeah, I think they might have had it in them to try to pull a fast one. Could be the Doctor, being a rather moral character, is more of an exception than the rule.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe the Master was typical of timelords and the Doctor was NOT the norm!?! Any evidence to suggest this?
What was his purpose? Was it just to thwart the Doctor at every turn? That'll turn out to be a pretty one dimensional character if that is the case.
What was the Master's relationship with the Daleks?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:Maybe the Master was typical of timelords and the Doctor was NOT the norm!?! Any evidence to suggest this?
Considering that Borusa called him something to the effect of the most vile, despicable person in existence, I'd say not. But then again, look who's talking...
quote:What was his purpose? Was it just to thwart the Doctor at every turn? That'll turn out to be a pretty one dimensional character if that is the case.
That's what I said before when I said that I don't want John Simm to be nothing more than Snively Whiplash.
quote:What was the Master's relationship with the Daleks?
Like everyone else, he just used them to suit his own purposes, hence the "trial" at the beginning of "The Enemy Within." Of course, why the Daleks didn't put the Doctor on "trial" still eludes me.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Warming up for the Time War, of course.
Regarding Sir Derek Jacobi's previous Master experience, I wouldn't read TOO much into it. He's an extremely well-regarded actor, and having him as ANYTHING in Who is bound to be popular in the UK. I mean, did anyone imagine or think that Colin Baker's turn as Commander Maxil would result in his casting as the sixth Doctor? Would David Tennant's minor role in "Shalka" clued people in to his ending up as the tenth?
Further, I trust the Who staff to come up with a proper story and arc for the new Master, as I'm sure he'll end up being THE major villain for the fourth series. Both Ainley and Delgo had smooth, motivated roles as the Master, and despite the fact that Eric Roberts killed the character, I'm sure the Master will be digested properly this time around. John Simm is terrific in "Life On Mars", and with a proper dark hair dye and goatee I'm sure he'll make a great Master too.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Maybe the Master was typical of timelords and the Doctor was NOT the norm!?! Any evidence to suggest this?"
They're both pretty abnormal for Time Lords. Your typical Time Lord just spends his time being sedentary on Gallifrey, whiling away the centuries doing nothing.
The Doctor and the Master are both, by Gallifreyan standards, a couple of weirdos, due to their desire to go out into the universe. The difference, of course, is that the Doctor does it out of curiosity, and the Master does it out of lust for power.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: I mean, did anyone imagine or think that Colin Baker's turn as Commander Maxil would result in his casting as the sixth Doctor? Would David Tennant's minor role in "Shalka" clued people in to his ending up as the tenth?
Well no, of course not - I'm not reading anything into this other than a bit of speculation on my part, but as I said the new series does seem to be borrowing elements from the "expanded universe" stuff (for want of a better term) and putting them to use in the TV show, which makes it a vague possibility at least.
I'm not saying that Jacobi's previous role as the Master makes him a dead cert, but just that if they're using plot elements, characters, names etc from other stories in the TV show it makes it a possibility that they might use Jacobi in a role he has played before. And if they're going to do a pre/post regeneration Master, then both actors mentioned would be good choices.
Have to say I agree on John Simm - I think he will be good in the role and I think the production team will come up with a good story angle on the Master and his relationship with the Doctor. Of course if it does turn out to be the Master the question is this - why couldn't the Doctor sense that other Time Lords were out there? Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I remember reading that there was a possibility of the Master being related to the Doctor, perhaps being the Doctor's brother. However, the idea was eventually dropped.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
There was also a story planned at one point that would have seen the Master sacrifice his life to save the Doctor's - it was meant to be the final 3rd Doctor story and the last appearance of Roger Delgado's Master. Unfortunately before it got close to being put into production Delgado was killed in a car crash (and, I assume, didn't regenerate) so they wrapped up Pertwee's era with "Planet of the Spiders" instead.
Wasn't the plan for the Master/Doctor brother thing in the initial drafts of the McGann movie? I think I remember reading something about how Borusa was revealed to be the Doctor's father and his spirit inhabited the TARDIS, though my memory might be playing tricks on me...if not, I'm glad that little gem never went beyond the planning stages, anyway. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wasn't there also something about the Doctor being one of the 'special' Timelords... Mentioned in the Five Doctors - I remember the name Rassilon... anyway I remember reading a long time ago that the Seventh Doctor's stories were peppered with hints about him being something even greater still.
AND, If all the Timelords died in the Time War... then does that mean they were all erased from history?
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Ahh, the Cartel Masterplan - they planned to hint that the Doctor was one of the original three founders of Time Lord society - Rassilon (who came up with Time Travel), Omega (who fashioned the eye of harmony out of a star to power Gallifreyan time travel devices) and The Other (who kept the Rassilon/Omega alliance together). The Doctor was meant to have been The Other, but it never really came to anything what with the series ending and all. The books took it further, but as far as TV went all we got was initial hints (such as the one in "Remembrance of the Daleks" where the Doctor hints he was present when Omega was working on his stellar manipulator).
Rassilon was mentioned - and even appeared - in the Five Doctors, as a projection before turning Borusa into an early version of the paving slab girl from "Love and Monsters".
I don't think it means they would be erased from history if they died - I always got the impression Gallifrey was in some way outside of normal space-time anyway.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Also when did the time war happen?
I don't think Gallifrey was completely erased from history since that would drastically alter the Doctor's past. I would think that the planet still exists in time prior to the war's end but that the Doctor chooses not to go there.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, it's one of the bigger laws of time travel that you shouldn't directly interfere in your own personal timeline. If/when you do, giant monsters come around and eat everyone.
Fandom generally accepts that the Time War happened at the end of the 8th Doctor's incarnation, included seveal major battles involving fleets of warships throughout time, and that in general his regeneration into the 9th Doctor was one result of the War.
Mark
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I had always thought that Da Doc would end up being the "White Guardian" from the Tom Baker "Key of Time" episodes. Who knows?
OK....VERY bad pun.
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: I don't think Gallifrey was completely erased from history since that would drastically alter the Doctor's past.
Very drastically! If Gallifrey never existed, neither would the Doctor's parents...very confusing situation where you exist but your parents didn't. No wonder he's eccentric and lives in a telephone! Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
He is his own grandfather!
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: I would think that the planet still exists in time prior to the war's end but that the Doctor chooses not to go there.
I don't think it's a case of choice - I remember one of the books saying that travelling into Gallifrey's past was forbidden because the time traveller might inadvertantly alter Gallifrey's future. Fits in with the generally conservative nature of their society, I suppose. The TARDIS might be locked out of any co-ordinates that would take it to Gallifrey's relative past.
While there has never been any real confirmation of the Time War's duration, RTD has commented on the backstory and wrote a bit about it in one of the annuals - I think in one of the "Doctor Who Confidential" episodes he even went so far as to say that the Time Lords started the war with a pre-emptive strike against the Daleks, featured in "Genesis of the Daleks" - which places it back in the 4th Doctor's era.
I have to admit I always assumed the Doctor's line in "Dalek" about watching the Dalek fleet burn referred to his actions in "Remembrance of the Daleks" where he detonated Skaro's star - which was in the 7th Doctor era. And of course there is the Doctor's line at the start of "Rose" where he seems to check out his new face for the first time, which would put it not long after his regeneration and the (presumed) end of the Time War.
Of course we might be chasing our tails here looking for info on the time war - is there an answer to such a question as when did two time travelling powers fight a war? Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not really. Davies wrote a brief history of the Time War, or at least the end of it, which barely mentioned the Doctor at all. From Wikipedia:
The Doctor Who Annual 2006, published by Panini in August 2005, contains an article entitled Meet the Doctor by Russell T. Davies, which provides some additional background information on the Time War as seen in the television series, also mentioning in passing events depicted in the novels, audios and comic strips. Although the canonicity of such material is debatable, the fact that Davies is the chief writer and executive producer of the television series may add some weight to the information given. Whether or not any of the material will be used as part of the television series is also unclear.
The article describes the Time Lord policy of non-intervention, but states that on a "higher level", they protected the time vortex and kept the peace. It further claims that two previous "Time Wars" had been fought: the first a skirmish between the Halldons (a race mentioned in the Terry Nation story We are the Daleks from the Radio Times 10th Anniversary Special, 1973) and the Eternals (Enlightenment). The second was the brutal slaughter of the Omnicraven Uprising, with the Time Lords intervening on both occasions to settle matters.
The conflict between the Daleks and the Time Lords is described as "the Great (and final) Time War". Initial clashes included the Dalek attempt to infiltrate the High Council of the Time Lords with duplicates (Resurrection of the Daleks, 1984), and the open declaration of hostilities by one of the Dalek Puppet Emperors; although the Daleks claimed that these were merely in retaliation for the Time Lords' sending of the Doctor back in time to change Dalek history in Genesis of the Daleks.
The article says that historical records are uncertain, but mentions two specific events in the lead-up to the war. The first was an attempted Dalek-Time Lord peace treaty initiated by President Romana under the Act of Master Restitution (a possible reference to the otherwise unexplained trial of the Master on Skaro at the beginning of the Doctor Who television movie, 1996). The second was the Etra Prime Incident (The Apocalypse Element), which some say "began the escalation of events." Weapons used by the Time Lords included Bowships, Black Hole Carriers and N-Forms (the last from Davies' 1996 New Adventures novel Damaged Goods) while the Daleks wielded "the full might of the Deathsmiths of Goth" (from the comic strip story Black Legacy by Alan Moore and David Lloyd, in Doctor Who Weekly #35-#38) and launched a massive fleet into the vortex.
The timelines of lesser races and planets shifted without the inhabitants of the worlds affected being aware of the changes in history, as they were a part of them (presumably including humans). "Higher Species" who were able to notice the changes included the Forest of Cheem, who were distraught at the bloodshed; the Nestene Consciousness, which lost all its planets and further mutated; the Greater Animus, which died; and the Eternals, who apparently fled this reality in despair, never to be seen again. The war lasted for years, and exactly how it ended was also not precisely known.
The article ends with a description of a monument to the Time War on a distant planet, upon which, under an image of a lone survivor walking away, the message "You are not alone" has been scratched, perhaps indicating that the Doctor was not the sole survivor of the conflict.
I don't think the destrution of Skaro by the Doctor in "Rememberance" was the ten million ships thing. He wasn't really "seeing" it happen, literally - he was staring at Davros' wrinkles at the time.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Could they do another 'x doctors'?
Theoretically they could have Tennent, Eccleston and McGann...
McCoy still looks the same?? Colin Baker and Tom Baker look way older/different - you could always put a wig on them! What about Peter Davidson?
Hmmm the 7 Doctors! Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Fanwank! See the "Dimensions in Time" special for how poorly that would look. Only Pertwee was able to look convincing, with everyone else getting fat and/or bald. Love the actors, but there IS a limit on credibility, in this current series even moreso.
I wouldn't want any previous Doctors unless they looked like they still could when they WERE the Doctor... And that basically leaves 8 and 9 at this point. McGann is willing to entertain the possibility (there was no "last" story with him, so theorhetically he could play the doctor at any time), but Eccleston apparently hated his time as the Doctor and for the present is not interested in doing anything related to it ever again.
Personally, I'd like to see a feature film or TV special with McGann, which would cover the Time War itself. The actor certainly has the chops, and I'd like to finish it with a regeneration (but not seeing Eccleston), since we know what happens next anyway.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Peter Davison certainly looks older, but, with enough make-up, I don't think he'd look any worse than Troughton did in "The Two Doctors".
Also : "Deathsmiths of Goth" sounds like the worst name for a band ever.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Here's Peter, a year and a half ago when he met the then-new David Tennant on set for "The Christmas Invasion":
And here's how he looked in 1980, when he first took the role:
I'd say he's in pretty good shape for a man of 57. He could play a Doctor of age 57 - but not his fifth Doctor when he was still 30. And have you heard his voice in the audio plays? It's a good half octave lower and much gravelier than it was a quarter century ago.
As for Troughton's appearance in "The Two Doctors", I personally explain it away with the popular fandom "Season 6B" theory: that after his capture and conviction by the Time Lords, he actually went on for a couple centuries doing their dirty work - including his three appearances in the multi-Doctor stories - before being exiled to Earth. This explains how he (and Jamie!) managed to look so much older by the time he met his sixth incarnation, as well as dealing with a number of plot holes (not the least of which was Troughton's refusal to dye his hair for his last appearance).
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I was 3 years old in 1973. I can remember 1973. This show is even being marketed at people my age. But I haven't seen it. I'm pondering whether to splash out �15 on the DVD, or spend the next week getting a 4GB torrent off the net. Before the new series - dammit, no way can you call this a season! - starts.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
"Life On Mars" is the best cop drama I've ever seen. That it's about a time travelling / comatose / nutcase cop who wakes up in 1973 is almost secondary. See the link for my thoughts on the first series. The second and final series begins in a matter of days!
Mark
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: I was 3 years old in 1973. I can remember 1973. This show is even being marketed at people my age. But I haven't seen it. I'm pondering whether to splash out �15 on the DVD, or spend the next week getting a 4GB torrent off the net.
Get the DVDs. The commentaries are pretty interesting, as is the behind the scenes stuff. Can't wait for the next series, this is easily the best sci-fi/cop/time travel drama ever made. No, really.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Torrented it (in the end, only took two and a half days, running my laptop for that long probably cost about �15 in electricity, bastard British Gas), watched, then saw last night's ep. And got the power up and won the game for good measure. The phone call at the end could be a way of moving away from the "he's in a coma" angle that was really at the fore in this ep.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Sorry to bring this topic up again after so many months, but after watching Mark's YouTube links to the series 3 trailers, something kinda bugged me about this whole "Master No. Six" thing.
According to my count, there seem to be either five or six Masters, depending on your point of view (Note: I'm only using the televised material).
Master No. 1. Roger Delgado. This is the first time we see the Master.
Master No. 2. Peter Pratt. This is the guy who wore the horribly disfigured Master costume in "The Deadly Assassin." Here's the problem: Chancellor Goth explicitly stated that he'd found the Master in that state, dying on some planet because he'd run out of regenerations. Until now, I'd always assumed that the "horribly disfigured" Master was supposed to be Roger Delgado's Master, and that RD was the 13th regeneration. But unless there was some line in the Pertwee era that stated otherwise, apparently Peter Pratt's Master was actually the final 13th incarnation, and RD's Master was perhaps the 12th (Note: There was some other guy playing the disfigured Master in "Keeper of Traken" but it's obviously supposed to be the same incarnation).
Master No. 3. Anthony Ainley. He's actually Nyssa's father Tremas, who's body the disfigured Master stole. Why he became younger, and with different clothes and already-styled hair & goatee automatically coming into existence, we'll never know.
Master No. 4. Eric Roberts. I'm going under the assumption that the person the Daleks executed on Skaro in the TV movie was supposed to be Anthony Ainley's Master (although it wasn't Ainley playing him, but you couldn't see his face, so who cares?) And the less said about Eric Roberts, the better.
Master No. 5. Derek Jacobi?
Master No. 6. John Simm?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I can't find on the SciFi site when Dr. Who is supposed to return to SciFi. Anyone know?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The idea is that "Master No. Six" refers to the sixth ACTOR to play the role; that the second guy to play the crispy Master does indeed count even if it's intended to be the same character. Inasmuch as there have been three actors to play Davros, etc.
As for which incarnation of the Master we may or may not be encountering, it could be up to the twentieth depending on how you think of it. Most fandom accepts that Delgado was the thirteenth and final NATURAL incarnation of the Master. At some point, he was wounded or otherwise forced a regeneration upon himself and got the monster case of excema. That's fourteen, unless you think that it's still Delgado underneath the crispy exterior and that's just how Time Lords look if they get too old.
Next, some count the "Traken" version of the Master as a separate incarnation (as walking corpses go he DID look completely different and the personality was also different due to the actor's take on the character), so that could be fifteen. Ainley would therefore be sixteen. At the top of the TV Movie, a bearded figure is executed by the Daleks, but even if his face is obscured (his eyes at the time may not have been unlike the cat's eyes he developed in "Survival", but it IS another actor under the koopa hood), he's clearly younger and thinner than Ainley was when he was last seen in Perivale. It's not inconceivable that the Master had found a way to regenerate again. Seventeen.
Finally, if you count the slimy snake thing as a brief incarnation , the camp Master in the TV movie could be the eighteenth or ninteenth Master. Fast forward to John Simm. QED.
Mark
Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
Indeed. The only way logically for this 'Master No. Six' business to actually fit with the available facts is it it's the Master from early on in his personal timeline, a regeneration prior to that of Delgado. But again, that's not been how they've portrayed things with Timelords previously so even that has problems. The most realistic explanation is that Saxon isn't the Master...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Ah, but for the most part the Doctor and various other Time Lords have been locked into concurrent time lines - they don't bump into each other from past or future versions of themselves except in extreme circumstances. My personal theory is that the time streams of advanced time-travelling races are somehow outside of linear time; so whenever they encounter each other it's always in a linear format. This is why the Doctor is always coming back to Gallifrey AFTER the last time he was there (except for "The Five Doctors"), and why he keeps running into Davros as he gets perpetually more pissed off. The novels throw this out the window, but I'm not counting them.
Mark
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:The idea is that "Master No. Six" refers to the sixth ACTOR to play the role; that the second guy to play the crispy Master does indeed count even if it's intended to be the same character. Inasmuch as there have been three actors to play Davros, etc.
But that wouldn't work. That would make it:
1. Roger Delgado 2. Peter Pratt 3. Geoffrey Beevers (the second guy to play crispy Master) 4. Anthony Ainley 5. Gordon Tipple (executed Master at start of TV movie) 6. Eric Roberts 7. Derek Jacobi? 8. John Simm?
So Master No. Six would be Eric Roberts (unless they just aren't counting number 5. But even then, John Simm would be either Master No. 7 or 8, if Jacobi is also an incarnation.
Personally, I think my theory works. Peter Pratt's disfigured Master acts nothing like Roger Delgado, and is way more vicious and demented than RD ever was (of course, looking like a walking corpse will do that to you...), so I think he's a separate incarnation.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Maybe they are counting in Gallifreyan Number Base where 7 or 8 or 20 = 6 numerically....yeah...that's the ticket.
So....as numerology goes, with Six representing evil, will this be the most dastardly of Masters?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Maybe this "Master No. Six" business is just a coincidence, and they just picked the name "Mr. Saxon" because they liked it.
Or did I just blow your mind?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
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