So who thinks Kara is ACTUALLY dead? Various theories I've seen include the possible similarities between Kara's Leoben and Harvey Six and Baltar. Also, there's a shot where you can see the Cylon raider, Kara's viper and Apollo's viper all at the same time. That kind of implies that it was real, I would think. Which means she could have been rescued somehow.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I'm just not sure. She did have her hand on the ejector handle, but in the VFX of the ship's destruction, the canopy is still there and you can see the glow from the pilot's helmet. That's assuming the VFX people didn't screw that up.
I'm wondering who not-Leoben really was. Was he just in her head, or some other entity? Other theories I've seen is that this is the whole Ship of Lights thing starting to rear its head.
Besides, it would really be pointless to build up all this stuff about Starbuck's destiny and then just have her nose-in.
I'm not sure this means anything (but considering the rest of the episode, it's possible), but did anyone else notice that when Starbuck came across Adama and ShakesFistAtCylons in the corridor, the lights went out in the section she went into, and then back on as she came out? Yeah, there were crewmembers working in that area, but it's too much of a coincidence for me.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
She's a cylon.
Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
She's one of the Final 5
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:I'm not sure this means anything (but considering the rest of the episode, it's possible), but did anyone else notice that when Starbuck came across Adama and ShakesFistAtCylons in the corridor, the lights went out in the section she went into, and then back on as she came out? Yeah, there were crewmembers working in that area, but it's too much of a coincidence for me.
Yeah I noticed that too. The whole episode is peppered with omens of doom; from the "I want my picture next to Kat" conversation, to the re-visit of the "bring the cat in" exchange which I'm pretty sure we haven't seen since the mini and as I recall was the first thing said between Adama & Kara onscreen.
As far as the question of whether or not she's really dead. I vote yes. She didn't eject, there was no chute. HOWEVER there are several trapdoors in the plot; the most obvious being that Lee did seam to get a glimpse of the heavy raider, which means it was really there (if indeed it was a heavy raider at all.) So her body could have been recovered before it got too deep into the atmosphere, or she may have downloaded. I'm not convinced that she's a Cylon though, for starters she has a human mother who served in the first Cylon war (before there were skinjobs) so unless the toasters captured & impregnated her mother in an early cloneing experiment (not impossible) she's human. I think it's pretty clear that this somehow ties into the greater mythology of the show, either the final 5, the fate of the Lords of Kobol, the 13th tribe, the Cylon god, the source of Six & Harvey or some combination of the above. Of course the answer to the question all hinges on the identity of Not-Leoben. My bet is he's the same (or similar) to the intellegence behind Baltar & Six's Harveys.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
So do you think Leoben is haunted by Harvey Kara?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think Leoben is haunted by Harvey Leoben. Now that'd be funny.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
Didn't she say to Lee "the others are waiting for me" a few moments before she died? My immediate thought was the final five, but if they're bringing the Ship of Lights into the series then it could be that. Or more likely, they've merged the two stories. The people on light ships did have that whole glowy white thing going on, after all.
The other alternative is that she ejected after the camera cut away. They seemed to make those shots of the Viper exploding in such a way that they could at a later point in time show it from a different angle without the camera panning away from the cockpit in the last few seconds..
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yeah, looking back at the sequence, the shot of the viper exploding is framed so the top half of the fireball (where her ejection seat would go) is cut off. Also in the shot where Lee makes visual contact on Kara's Viper, the "Turkey" is seen flying ABOVE Kara's bird. Ideal placement for a Barn Swallow.
So it looks like they planned it so they could plausibly go back and show how she survived, if the story call for it.
As for the ship of light connection, it's hard to say. I've not seen much of the original series, but from what I've read I gather the "seraphs" seam to be related to the Lords of Kobol, though with a Judeo/Christian/Islamic slant. Which dose fit in with Head Six's description of herself as an Angel of God. Though what connection that could have with the final 5 I can't quite put my finger on.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
While I think her physical body is dead, I think Kara still exists on some other level of reality.
Edit: You know she really could have gone ape-shit, at which point it would seem she killed herself for no reason.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
I'm sure that's how it'll be seen by her colleagues. She was always a little erratic, but in this episode she started seeing phantom Cylons, claiming her ship had been damaged when there wasn't a scratch on it, almost plowing into a gas giant and finally committing suicide. That must be how it would seem from their perspective.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
What interested me was the suggestion (although I may have imagined it) that the abuse she supposedly suffered at her mother's hands may not have actually happened. The black&white scene seemed to show her shutting her own hand in the door. And somehting Leoben said, that she was confusing the message with the messenger.
If she's a Cylon, then she's either one of the Final 5 or one of their tools. Certainly the other models don't know about her from the way she was treated in the Farm.
It could be, on the other hand, that she was implanted with something. After all, Baltar had his head scanned for an implant and didn't find anything - perhaps the mechanism that generates a Harvey is elsewhere in the body?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, and am probably delirious, but Suddenly All Is Clear. I've often complained in the past about how Starbuck acted so illogically, but now I understand her reasons. So, sit back in amazement as I present - not the Why of Fry, but
The Whafuck of Starbuck
OK. So, little Kara Thrace grows up the child of ex-Colonial Marine hardass Socrata Thrace and her husband, er, Mr. Thrace. Her mum isn't the easiest person to live with, and her father soon leaves. Kara grows up simultaneously idolising her absent father and resenting him for that very absence.
Her mother's parenting regime is, I'm presuming, strict but fair, harsh but nowhere near as abusive as Starbuck later makes out (for reasons I'll get into). The toughness she inherits gets her into the Colonial forces as an officer, but her duality of dedication and decadence makes it a bumpy ride.
Unfortunately her perfectionist mother isn't prepared to ignore those bumps, so the first scene we see played out between them results. Kara leaves for good, her mother dies alone.
As a Viper pilot-trainer she finds a soulmate in Zack Adama, himself the victim of an abusive mother, abandoned by his father. Unfortunately she pushes him too far, way beyond his abilities as a pilot, and he dies as a result. This colours her subsequent relationships in that she wants strong men, but also resents them if they're too strong.
Meanwhile the way she left her mother to die continues to gnaw away at her, leading her to exaggerate the abuse she suffered (confusing the tough lessons her mother taught her with her mother being tough in an abusive sense, as Leoben said).
In conclusion then, you have this driven overachiever who in classic behaviour is compelled to repeat the abuses (real or imaginary, or both) she herself suffered; who regards showing affection as a weakness, both in herself and others (the sole exception being Adama Snr., her surrogate father, the one person who in her own mind is as tough as her mother). She simultaneously likes to see the men in her life as subservient, while also regarding them contemptuously for doing so - she likes having Anders and Lee chasing after her, but despises them for doing so.
All this self-loathing is only relieved by having a second chance to say goodbye to her mother and admit the things she did for her, while forgetting the things she (allegedly or delusionally) did TO her. Why the entity (or manifestation of her own subconscious) that presented her with this chance should take the form of Leoben the Cylon, I don't know.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well she may not have been physically abused, but I would say she was mentally abused. Constantly busting your kid's balls can't be good for their development.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :