Moving along in reviewing SGA for the season 4 premier, I'm just about halfway through season 2 now. Couple of random musings have occurred to me that I thought to discuss on here.
-Aurora class: Can anyone tell how big it is? Do you think they all have hundreds of stasis pods built into them? It doesn't seem entirely practical, BUT that would depend on the size of the ship. (City-ships wouldn't be practical to have them either, because they have a much higher population density, I'd assume)
-ZPMs: How many could the Ancients make? I remember from the Asurans episodes (I don't recall if they're season 2 or 3 at this point but I think 3) that the Asurans had the capacity to manufacture "an unlimited supply" of them. If the Lanteans could as well, could they give every ship a ZPM? If they could, why wouldn't they? The Orion and Aurora don't have them (not mentioned anyway) so that seems to be an answer...but does that make the Asurans liars, or more advanced than the Lanteans? (And where does the massive energy stored in them COME from? I mean, you can't store energy - even by creating a universe-in-a-bottle - without having that energy in the first place.)
-The Four Races: Why didn't the Ancients share more of their tech with the other three? They seem far more advanced 10,000 years ago than the Asgard are even now. (The Nox do seem to have *really* perfected cloaking technology - but even Atlantis can cloak with a simple part-swap.) The only exception to this I can think of is the Asgard beam. The Ancients could beam from room to room, or via rings, but not through open space. Also, the Asgard beam (see that rather disappointing "Unending") can be used to create matter out of nothing (say hello 'replicators', heheh). Does that beaming tech seem like something that could have been developed in only 10,000 years, or did the Asgard have it back then? If they did, why didn't the Ancients? I only ask *that* apparently stupid question because tech development (when it's not reverse-engineered, stolen, or a gift, that is) seems reallllly slow in the SG universe - over millions of years the Ancients didn't really improve a great deal...they went from hyperspace-capable city-ship to...hyperspace-capable city ship. But then, they were rather the pinnacle, weren't they? And again, pinnacle or no, no beaming tech....
-Do you think the Stargates in the Ida galaxy were installed by the Ancients, or the Asgard? This brings up the question of, can the Asgards make Stargates? The Tollan can, and they're not nearly as advanced. If the Asgard can construct the Ancient's greatest achievement, is it fair to say they're finally on par with the Ancients? And it also leads me to wonder how many Alterans there *were.* Sure, it took millions of years per galaxy, but they installed Gates on untold thousands of worlds that they themselves probably terraformed (witness multiple habitable planets in solar systems, esp. Lantea) throughout the entire galaxy. That requires a lot of resources and population to get done, I'd think - both the manufacture *and* distribution.
Well, I'd say this post is long enough.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
At this point one ought to just forget anything that happened in SG-1 prior to season three or so, it seems, at least regarding non-Goa'uld backstory.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The Tollan gate was built with help from the Nox, IIRC. It's also worth noting that the Furlings could beam through open space, seemingly.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I know the ZPM harvests zero-point energy; but it harvests zero-point energy from an artificial universe: an "artificial region of subspace-time; kind of like a universe-in-a-bottle." Project Arcturus harvested zero-point energy from OUR universe, and was a bust due to the creation of exotic particles unpredictable by physics. ZPMs therefore have to be created; it takes energy to store energy, even if 'storing energy' means 'creating a micro-universe.'
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Then I'm not sure I understand your original question. (Though I'm ready to postulate that a wizard did it.) They do seem to sometimes treat them as batteries, and sometimes as generators.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Yeah... It keeps going and going and going....till the plot runs out.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Season three is in stores today. I've got a couple hours before I leave work to pick mine up. And Family Guy.
The Aurora is best guestimated at about 500m long. A Daedalus class ship is around 335m.
2) For the capital city of the Lantean society NOT to be able to manfacture its own ZPMs is silly. I like to think that the technology to create them was taken with 'em back to the Milky Way when everyone jumped ship, leaving only the three powering Atlantis plus whichever other ones they had scattered around Pegasus.
The Lantean ship Tria had a ZPM, and was using it to travel at near lightspeed to the Milky Way since their hyperdrive was destroyed. I don't think it was a standard piece of equipment. Only the Asurans seem to have the technology to make them now. However ZPMs work, there has been mention made of their structure reaching "maximum entropy" and thus losing their ability to draw power from subspace.
3) Each of the four races seemed to have plateaued in their technological development at a stage where they couldn't advance further, or didn't want to. The Nox seemed happy being able to hide and heal, while the Ancients and the Asgard were basically able to do anything they wanted to have a happy Trekkie existence, at least until species-extinction reared its head. Eath and its allies are making rapid progress mostly because they're only making it TO that point. Lots of Ancient and Asgard tech seems to be far over anyone's heads anyway, to the point that it wouldn't be NEEDED in everyday life (who needs to reboot all life in the galaxy, anyway?). It's like us and nuclear technology. No one really understands how to make it, we benefit from it anyway, and it's otherwise just out of everyone's reach.
As for the beaming thing, well... Who needs beaming when you've got rings, gates and jumpers? They get'cha where you're going either way. Perhaps everyone was freaked out that over-use fo beaming will make you look withered and googly-eyed and sterile like the Asgard.
4) The one gate we saw in the Ida galaxy seemed to be of Milky Way design, so it stands to reason that the Asgard didn't have much need to them. They seemed perfectly capable of travelling between stars and whole galaxies in very short times by ship. They just did stuff differently.
Mark
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
"Maximum entropy" is actually exactly what you'd say if what you were doing is draining the energy from an artificial universe. See, when a universe dies, depending on a particular little constant, it will either go into a Big Crunch, or it will expand out forever until the energy in it is spread so thin that every particle in the universe is almost at absolute zero and has not enough energy to interact with anything else - a long, slow, cold, dark death where the energy content of the universe is at maximum entropy (the most possible 'spread' of energy and the most possible disorder in matter).
And bear in mind the artificial universe need not even be contained within the ZPM itself - the ZPM could be the 'umbilical cord' that connects the 'baby'verse to our own universe. Some physicists speculate that's what black holes are, and that energy can only move from the parent to the child (not the other way around). I'm perfectly willing to believe they're wrong - I'm a great believer in paradigm shifts...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I've always been of the opinion that the Gate seen in the Ida galaxy was the only one there, established by the Ancients as a means to travel back and forth to the Asgard planet. The Asgard, as was mentioned, don't seem to have need of a Gate network themselves, but as far as maintaining communication and diplomacy with the other 3 races, it would be convenient.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yes, and the one gate we've seen in Ida seems to have been placed in an important location (as Asgard started popping up immediately after O'Neil arrived). However, it' snot like ANYONE can just gate there on a whim, as you need a ZPM or other large power source to get there. I'd like to think that the United Nations planet was one place so-equipped to travel to Ida, but we may never know (and there's no real need to go back there now anyway).
Mark
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Yeah, no need for that Universal Language - everyone speaks English. (Seriously though, yeah, all that stuff is surely in the Ancient Database and probably the Asgard computer as well).
I *still* wonder, if Asgard weapons on Odyssey can outmatch an Ori mothership, why the small fleet of O'Neill-class Asgard battleships didn't fare better in the Battle of PY-Whateveritwas. They should have wiped them the fuck out, especially supported with the absolute *fleet* of Ha'taks lent to the battle by the Free Jaffa and the Lucian Alliance. And if the Ancient Database will contain any info on how to modify the Asgard power core so as not to be trackable from hyperspace; and whether we'll ever hear mention of the Asgard legacy again in Atlantis. Or the Nox or Tollan; I'm sure we won't, but that'd just be beyond cool to see serious colleague-level relationships developing betwixt the Tau'ri and the 'elder' type races.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I'm a great believer in paradigm shifts...
Does that mean that one day you wont be?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Deep, man. Meta.
I should clarify, I meant that I believe we as a species will continue to have paradigm shifts over and over every so often until the universe ends.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Civilizations rise and fall periodicly, so there's no reason to think the "advanced" races dont occasionally backslide into anarchy and then re-form into new, distinct communities. Consider a situation like China and Japan: over tens of thousands of years and lightyears of distance, there should be several seperate cultures of Asgard, Aint-cent,Nox (or any other long-lived race). You'd expect some worlds colonized by older races to be far removed in social structure from the ones we normally see- a mean, xenephobic, militaristic Nox might be fun too. Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Or even just a SINGLE Nox who didn't find him/herself bound in their value systems. I can't believe EVERY Nox agrees with every OTHER Nox.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That's a typical limitation of Sci-Fi shows, though - a bunch of heroes come accross a planet, and EVERYONE THERE agrees on everything. Thus, the plot becomes between the ethics or morality of our heroes, and those of the alien-of-the-week. The variation therefore comes when an opposing force is revealed to have multiple factions. Stargate did this admirably with the Goa'uld system lords, crafting a very textured adversary with multiple leaders and levels under each one.
This has not happened as much (yet) with the various foes on Atlantis - the Wraith have factions but they're all the same in looks and goals, and the Asurans are a unified mind. The addition of Michael to the Wraith, and the various political machinations of the Genii have been pretty fun.
Mark
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
That's one big thing I liked about Babylon 5 - the different races were far from being homogeneous.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yeah. Oh?
Among my many critcisms of B5, is that the races were SO homogenous, it got severely annoying. The Humans, Centauri, Minbari and Narn were relatively multi-faceted, but basically everyone else was of the "one species, one voice" variety. Also, within a given episode, most of the "big four" were guilty of the "I speak for us ALL!" mentality - and a huge pet peeve of mine, the one actor of a given race who makes decisions for a crowd of like-minded people without discussing it, even when he's surrounded by his own people. >.<;;
Mark
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
In that case, I shall have to kill you. Shall I? Oh, I don't think so. Well, what do I think? I think kill him. Oh, lets be nice to him. Oh shut up!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Green! Purple!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Green! Purple!
The exception that proves the rule.
The first-season episode that had Sinclair introducing all of the human religious representatives comes to mind as being an alien monoculture episode.
Of course, B5 had more cultural diversity among the alien races than Star Trek does.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The exception that proves the rule? Next you'll be telling us the proof is in the pudding.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
mmmmmm..... pudding..... *drool*
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
No, the proof is in the Spoo.
Anyway, if that's the exception then what about the Mimbari? Not one, but three distinct and socially separate communities with their own traditions, attitudes and prejudices.
For that mattter what about humanity? As you point out, B5 did a very good job at shoing that Earth wasn't USA in spaaaaaaace...Now, if there's one race that most other sci-fi shows portray as monolithic and lacking in diversity, it's Humans. I mean, how often did trek REALLY show any diversity beyond superficially casting different ethnicities, here and there. Everyone still spoke with an american accent, nobody displayed much in the way of cultural heritage. The only exceptions being Sisko's African artifacts and Kim having a nagging dominating mother.
quote:The first-season episode that had Sinclair introducing all of the human religious representatives comes to mind as being an alien monoculture episode.
I think you missed the part where they say it was supposed to be a demonstration of each rece's DOMINANT beliefs. Sinclair's stunt just showed that he's a little more broad minded than Londo, Delenn and G'Kar...big surprise.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Also, within a given episode, most of the "big four" were guilty of the "I speak for us ALL!" mentality - and a huge pet peeve of mine, the one actor of a given race who makes decisions for a crowd of like-minded people without discussing it, even when he's surrounded by his own people.
Except that that's the very definition of an ambassador, to speak for the group! Don't tell me that the United Nations represents each and every sub-culture around. Do Brooklyn, the Midwest, the Deep South, and California each have their own ambassador to the UN? No! The whole point is that the higher levels of power politics always will end up simplifying diversity.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
If you're going to put a representative in for every subculture, you might as well just open up voting to the general public. Which gets my vote!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That's not what I mean. I'm talking (yet again, I know) about the awkward and oftimes cringe-worthy dialogue from jms. Scenes like this:
[Scene: Sheridan and a bunch of aliens in the corridors - always a great place to make political decisions. The alien ambassador stands in front of the people behind him, who look generally angry. He NEVER LOOKS AT THEM.]
Sheridan: I think what you're doing is wrong.
Ambassador: Well, we think what YOU'RE doing is wrong. Or gods/traditions/leaders/scarf colours tell us so.
Sheridan [speaking to the whole crowd]: Well, that's stupid, but fine. My dad/wife/alien hottie/drill sergeant once did something that can help. All of you will suddenly change your minds according to this idea I just whipped up.
Ambassador [Who STILL doesn't look at the people he's representing, even if they're nodding in agreement]: Very well. But because of this, WE have several conditions before we do anything. And here they are.
Sheridan: Wait a second, you're not even going to consult the people standing behind you before changing your minds based on a barely-relevant anecdote I used to come up with a plan?
Ambassador: No.
Sheridan: Why not?
Ambassador: They're extras. They're not paid to speak, or even look at you.
[Aliens nod in agreement, then start to disperse on their own without talking to anyone]
Sheridan: I'll insert a tagline here.
Ambassador: I'll reply with an expression prefaced with "As you humans say...".
[Exeunt]
Awkward, awkward dialogue. Also, lack of speaking incidental characters, another consequence of a low-budget show, was all too obvious most of the time. The lack of ambient chatter from these extras (B5 sound mixing was often atrocious, even for its budget) hurt, too.
Mark
[ September 28, 2007, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Ok, where here...
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Yeah. Oh?
Among my many critcisms of B5, is that the races were SO homogenous, it got severely annoying. The Humans, Centauri, Minbari and Narn were relatively multi-faceted, but basically everyone else was of the "one species, one voice" variety. Also, within a given episode, most of the "big four" were guilty of the "I speak for us ALL!" mentality - and a huge pet peeve of mine, the one actor of a given race who makes decisions for a crowd of like-minded people without discussing it, even when he's surrounded by his own people. >.<;;
Mark
Do you mention bad dialogue?
Anyway, off the top of my head I can only think of ONE instance where Sheridan confronted an ambassador and a mob in the corridor like that and it was right after he came back from the dead and mate, if you're going to criticise the dialogue, at least give a direct quote.
As for why everyone in a crowd agreeing with their Ambassador, remember that he is THE local leader of that particular species and is already a recognised spokesperson of their government. Do you think the Drazi Ambassador consults the local Drazi shopkeepers on the latest trade deals or takes a vote when enforcing policy? Doubtful. Besides, if they disagreed with him then they wouldn't be in his mob in the first place.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I know I'm going to get flayed raw for this, but...I have never, not once, seen a single minute of Babylon 5. I can't recall it ever being *on* whilst flipping channels. I have a friend that's crazy about it, so crazy he once built a 3.5 foot long model of something called the Whitestar out of Lego bricks...with no plans or kit or anything.
So...is it worth getting into, or isn't it?
I giggle at "If they didn't agree with him, they wouldn't be in his mob."
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It's not for everyone, certainly, but worth a look. If you have friend that's into it I'm sure he'll lend you the 1st season on DVD. It's a tricky show to get into because the Pilot movie "The Gathering" isn't great (thought the remastered version is a great improvement) and the show itself takes most of the first season to hit it's stride and you get a vague picture of what's to come. Once you're into it though, you'll want to see it through. Whatever you do though, don't watch the "In the Beginning" movie until you've at least gotten though to the 4th season.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I know I'm going to get flayed raw for this, but...I have never, not once, seen a single minute of Babylon 5.
After season 3's God-awful ending, you're missing nothing. Seriously: I want those many ours of my life back.
Some honestly great episodes lead up to that shit season ending, but there's zero payoff- probably the lamest, most disapointing hour of television I've ever had the misfortune to watch. (I've never seen the final episode of Ent, but I hear that's almost as bad)
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: Or even just a SINGLE Nox who didn't find him/herself bound in their value systems. I can't believe EVERY Nox agrees with every OTHER Nox.
Yeah. Same wit the Asgard. I was really disapointed in Loki- no mischief or evil, just some shaky ethics- biiiig deal. A low SG1 point, that episode.
It'd be amazing to reveal that the Nox kill off any segment of their population that is deemed a "threat" to their overall culture: possibly explaining their non-interference policy in darker tones. Or possibly they're all just slackers and pot-heads. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:After season 3's God-awful ending, you're missing nothing. Seriously: I want those many ours of my life back.
Seriously? Were we watching the same show because for me, everything from mid 3rd season all the way the the end of season 4 was the highlight of the whole series! "Intersections in Real Time" alone is worth waiting nearly 4 years for.
Since there is an uninitiated present I shan't get into spoilers, but seriously, that G'Kar monologue at the end of season 3 is one of the more memorable, by far and the cliffhanger is certainly the most foreboding of them all...well to be fair the show technically only had 2 cliffhangers, still, it was a good'un.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm...baybe I'm being a bit harsh. For season 4. It's just the rancid aftertaste of the crappy end to the Shadow storyline that taints my memory.
I do recall enjoying the episode where the EarthGov spin machine twisted all the TV interviews into propaganda. that was nicely handled (if not exactly a suprise).
That whole "free Mars" underground stuff just sucked like an open airlock...but not half so much as the telepaths uprising. A whole string of episodes that qualify as tranquilizers.
DId I mention that I really liked the build-up to the Shadow's attacks?
See? I'm saying something positive about the show!
But I still laugh derisivly at those hardcore B5 fans that swear the show was somehow superior to DS9, or that DS9 was somehow a "rip-off" of B5. Then I step on their necks and piss down their throats.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
G'Kar? Gesundheit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
G'Karmalok.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Hmmm...baybe I'm being a bit harsh. For season 4. It's just the rancid aftertaste of the crappy end to the Shadow storyline that taints my memory.
I do recall enjoying the episode where the EarthGov spin machine twisted all the TV interviews into propaganda. that was nicely handled (if not exactly a suprise).
That whole "free Mars" underground stuff just sucked like an open airlock...but not half so much as the telepaths uprising. A whole string of episodes that qualify as tranquilizers.
DId I mention that I really liked the build-up to the Shadow's attacks?
See? I'm saying something positive about the show!
But I still laugh derisivly at those hardcore B5 fans that swear the show was somehow superior to DS9, or that DS9 was somehow a "rip-off" of B5. Then I step on their necks and piss down their throats.
I wouldn't say B5 is superior to DS9, neither would I say DS9 is superior to B5. Apples and pears. Superficial similarities aside, they're two very different shows and I really like them both. Put it this way, DS9 is the only Star Trek series for which I have purchased the DVDs and the only series I ever intended to do so.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
(Seriously though, yeah, all that stuff is surely in the Ancient Database and probably the Asgard computer as well).