Tora Ziyal said that she still does not know of the reason for the attack on Amidala. Well, neither do I, unless you get beyond the facts.
The facts are:
Zam Wessell was hired by Jango Fett to kill Amidala.
Zam Wessell is killed by Jango Fett when she fails.
Jango Fett gave a genetic sample of himself to facilitate a clone army.
Jango Fett is working for Count Dooku, who in turn is working for Darth Sidious.
The entire Clone Wars is basically a sham to tear apart the Republic, and kill all the Jedi in the process, by converting Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side.
What I don't quite remember is whether or not Amidala was trying to vote for or against a Republic Army consisting of these clones. I am under the impression that she is, under the urging of Palpatine and the new Queen of Naboo. If she was voting against, then this might explain the attempted assassination on her life. If not, this complicates things.
If Amidala did support the notion of a Republic army, the only reason I would think of why Amidala was a target is so that Palpatine would get Amidala and Anakin together, in order to ferment Anakin's bad side. Palpatine did know that Anakin had some sort of affection for Amidala, and perhaps decided to use it against him. Palpatine also perhaps may have urged the Jedi Council to let Anakin escort Amidala alone back to Naboo, in order to get Anakin away from the influence of the Jedi, most notably Obi-Wan Kenobi, who has of course been trying to keep him in check.
I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku or Palpatine paid the Tusken Raiders to kidnap Anakin's mother as well, and to kill her in order to have him lash out in the Dark Side of the force.
What think you?
Posted by Spekkio (Member # 729) on :
Amidala was against the clones.... I still do not understand who ordered the clones to be made in the first place. And who wiped the data from the jedi computers...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
One of Palpatine's Jedi, I'd imagine.
He's got this well orchastrated out. I don't think he cares if Amidala and Anakin get together or not -- why would he? He's certainly got plans for Anakin, but I don't think he's forseeing turning him into his most trusted aide (at least not yet). Hell, even in ANH Palpatine trusted Vader only as far as Tarkin did.
Yes, Amidala was against the clones -- I get the feeling she was one of the most vocal opponents towards the "grand army of the Republic", and probably one of the reasons Palpatine targeted her for assassination ('cuz its pretty clear he's the one playing with all the strings, here).
Speaking of the clone army ... they DID say they'd cloned 1,000,000 troops, right? Is that ENOUGH for a "Grand Army of the Republic" which consists of thousands of worlds? Somehow I think that might be a bit like the US having a standing army of 100 troops or so. Uh, nice, sure, but hardly great.
Oh, yes ... can I add? Jar-Jar Binks is essentially responsible for the destruction of the Republic?! What a fuckin' ... argh. Oh, well. A real reason to hate him now.
[ May 16, 2002, 19:52: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
As I recall, the first batch was ready, and it was sometihng like 1 000 000 or so. Can't quite remember.
Now, it was mentioned that Dooku was a Jedi at one time. Was it stated how long ago? If it was at the same time of the order for the army, then it could have been him doing it. Also, if he was still a Jedi at the time, Dooku could have easily erased the records of Camino from the Jedi Archives. He seems to be quite the powerful dude.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Reading the novel right now, and, yup, Amadala was more or less the leader of the opposition. Palpatine was, if not BEHIND the assassination attempt, at least not horribly bothered by it.
Dooku's been un-Jedi for some time, at least a year or so.
Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
That is odd, I thought Amidala was FOR an army- not the clone army because noone knew it existed yet. They wanted an army so that the Republic could act on its decisions rather than having no teeth. Kinda like a League of Nations vs. United Nations thing. This makes sense because Amidala left Jar-Jar in charge and I highly doubt Jar-Jar is that much of a goof to go totally against Amidala's views/wishes.
As for the army, it just so happened that there was a clone army ready for transport, and thus came into battle against the droids.
Amidala's murder attempts were ordered by Dooku and Nute Gunray. Gunray has a bit of a grudge against her and since she supports a Republic army- she is the main resistance against the Trade Federation's droid army, and thusly domination.
So it makes sense that Amidala supports a Republic army.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Amidala is the leader of the Senatorial opposition to a grand army of the Republic. She has been for at least a year.
You need to re-watch the film, Jeff Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I'm going again on Sunday! Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
I just did watch the film again... and I'm still convinced Amidala supports the army- to stop the Trade Federation's(and the Separatists) droid army.
How else would they stop it? Negotiate with them? "Please don't secede, or else we'll argue you to death!"
It doesn't make sense any other way.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Dude, they state *very clearly* that she is the leader of the opposition to the Grand Army of the Republic.
She may have changed her mind after Genosa. But they reference twice *in dialogue* that she opposes the clone army.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yeah, obviously you missed the lines. She is the leader of the opposition to the Military Creation Act. She states this when she and Anakin are packing for Naboo, and at least one other time I think...
Jar Jar was duped into playing along with Palpatine, and that's at least partly why Palpatine wanted Padme to leave Coruscant in the first place. He knew he could trick Jar Jar and take control as long as she wasn't around...
-MMoM
[ May 17, 2002, 21:23: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
Yeah, I assumed that this was the reason he wanted her killed in the first place. If the assassination succeeds, Jar Jar would probably end up taking her place until Naboo could send another senator (assumably one with a brain). If the attempt fails, Palapatine has reason to insist that she go into hiding, again placing Jar Jar in charge.
Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :
Interesting then, if Nute Gunray wants her dead as well, when she could give the Federation no obstacle for taking over.
Maybe Nute Gunray isn't that bright, I don't know. It doesn't make sense.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Nute also thought blast-doors would save him from two rather irritated Jedi Knights. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
And the planet's called Geonosis. Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
I just got back from the movie... Anyway, I figured that Amidala was targeted for both reasons: To satisfy the Trade Federation guy and to get Jar Jar as a temporary Senator.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yeah, the Trade Federation didn't NEED her killed, they just wanted her dead for personal reasons.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I'm not sure that Palpatine and Dooku were even the ones trying to kill Amidala. I think it was Gunray who asked Dooku to have her killed. I suspect Palpatine and Dooku were perfectly alright w/ that, since it helped them out, but I don't think they really cared if she died or not.
Also, it was presumably either Dooku or Sifa-Dyas who deleted Kamino from the Jedi database. They probably did it ten years earlier when the clones were first ordered.
And I highly doubt that the Sith had anything to do w/ the kidnapping of Shmi Lars. I think it's just one of many things that are making Anakin more resentful and pained, thus making him more susceptible to Palpatine whenever he does start trying to turn Anakin to the Dark Side.
And to answer the question of who ordered the clones... Ultimately, it must have been Palpatine. Sifa-Dyas was the one who ordered the clones from the Kaminoans. Dooku was the one who hired Jango Fett to be the clonee. We know Dooku works for Palpatine. Presumably Sifa-Dyas did, also.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
But doesn't Obi-Wan say that Sifa-Dyas DIED before the timeframe presented by the cloners? This would probably mean that someone (Dooku?) went to the cloners and impersonated Sifa-Dyas (on the off-chance that if someone started snooping around, it might hinder the investigation). Since Jango was recruited by Dooku/Tyranus, this theory makes sense.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Speaking of the clone army ... they DID say they'd cloned 1,000,000 troops, right? Is that ENOUGH for a "Grand Army of the Republic" which consists of thousands of worlds? Somehow I think that might be a bit like the US having a standing army of 100 troops or so. Uh, nice, sure, but hardly great.
I took note of this when I saw the movie again today. Taun We told Kenobi that the first battallion was ready, weighing in at 200 000 troops. 1 000 000 more were on the way. I'd say the 200 000 was enough to deal with the skirmish on Geonosis, and by the end of the movie, the other 1 000 000 had arrived on Corsucant. Still, 1.2 million troops isn't really that much considering the size of the Republic. Palpatine's probably ordered a lot more, though.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Especially since we learn that "another 10,000 star systems are ready to follow Dooku ..."
That's a LOT.
Yeah, a million ain't much. Methinks many hundreds of billions would be needed.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Obi-Wan said "I was under the impression [Sifa-Dyas] was killed before then". This doesn't mean it was necessarily a fact. Yoda and Windu still seemed to think that Sifa-Dyas was involved, even after Obi-Wan said that. They didn't say "He's right, Sifa-Dyas was dead, so who could it have been?".
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, it IS a possibility.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Those are some of the big questions that the movie intentionally left open. Who was Syfa-Dias? How was he involved in all of this? And who killed him?
Consider this: When Yoda is meditating on Anakin while he's slaughtering the Tuscans...we very clearly hear Qui Gon's voice say "Anakin!". The novelization of the book plays up the fact that Yoda heard his voice and was almost frightened by how strong it was. This fact combined with the other mention of Jinn in the movie, tells me that Qui Gon has somethign to do with all of this...something we're not aware of yet.
What if it was Jinn who killed Syfa-Dias? Perhaps he was tricked into doing it...perhaps he was acting on orders from the Senate or the Council.
As far as Palpatine's use of people and situations...keep in mind, his only goal is to obtain power. He knows he has to eliminate the Jedi to do it. Right now, Anakin is someone to keep an eye on. He's been playing him for years with an eye on making him an ally. But I don't think he's counting on him being his apprentice yet. But his invovement in the blockade/invasion of Naboo, his attempt to have Amidaa killed in Episode 1 and his invlovement in starting the Clone Wars have been for the sole purpose of gaining more power and eliminating the Jedi. He's got enough things going on, that the people around him are fairly expendable.
[ May 20, 2002, 06:44: Message edited by: Aban Rune ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'm wondering why no one else seemed to notice a rather glaring connection between the clone army and Count Dooku. Because Jango Fett was the template for the Republic's clone soldiers... but Fett was fighting for Dooku in the big battle.
Shouldn't that be worrying to a lot of people?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
It probably wasn't widely known (especially by Dooku's other buddies) that Fett was the clone template. The cloners told Obi Wan, and Jango sort of confirmed it... but I doubt the Geonosians or the Trade Federation guys new about it. As far as they were concerned, Fett was just one of Dooku's "associates".
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yeah, that part makes sense.... but why wasn't the REPUBLIC concerned that their clone template was fighting for the other side?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
They might be later.
At the time, Yoda needed an army to rescue the Jedi. Hey -- an ARMY!
Besides, Jango could've been recruited by Dooku/Tyranus for other work AFTER being a clone donor.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah...Obi Wan will probably figure it out. But at that particular time, they had alot of other stuff going on.
Now...I'll have to watch for this... but did Obi Wan ever actually see Jango with Dooku? The council knew that Jango was being used as a template, but only Obi Wan knew what Jango looked like. If Obi Wan never saw Jango with Dooku, and if Obi Wan doesn't yet know that Dooku is the mysterious "Tryanus" who hired Jango... they may not put it together that he's working both sides.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Now this is gonna be fun: I have no idea what you folks are talking about, since I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm gonna try and answer Aban's quetion anyway...
"Who was Syfa-Dias, and why is his status as deceased not firmly established or universally accepted?"
Umm, didn't we already have a presumed-dead case like this in the first trilogy? What if Syfa-Dias wasn't actually killed, but simply jumped over to the Cool Side? What if his real moment of death was witnessed in "TPM", when Obi-Wan chopped him in half?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm thinking it would be too much of a stretch to say that Maul was Syfa-Dias. Syfa Dias was a part of the council, if I recall correctly. Surely Qui Gon would've recognized him as they fought had he been Syfa Dias.
This is where you point out, "Maybe he did recognize him, Aban" True...maybe he did. But if he did, he did an excellent job of pretending he didn't.
The fact that Syfa is dead doesn't appear to be in dispute...it's simply when he died that people like Obi Wan aren't quite sure of. Presumably the how of the situation is also somewhat sketchy, though they didn't really go into that.
I'm going to say that both the Council and Qui Gon know/ knew more than they're saying. I seem to recall that Yoda said he was going to the water planet to inspect the clones...yet he returns having mobilized them. Seems like he got convinced of their benefit real quick.
It'll be interesting to see what they do with all of this.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
It would be simple to explain why Qui-gon didn't recognize Darth Maul if he is the same person as this Syphillis (or whatever) guy. Maul had all kinds of tattoos. Maybe he got them as a symbol of his new found devotion to the Dark Side. Having that many tats (and horn implants) changes one's appearance greatly.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That's assuming he didn't look that way normally.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
True. But I think they were decorative tattoos. Purposefully wearing the colors of assassination like a badge of honor would make the character cooler to me than if he just looks that way naturally. Makes him more dangerous, and crazier.
Besides, I doubt we'll see anybody else that looks like Darth Maul in this series, unless they're Sith.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Black and red are "the colors of assassination"?
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
heh. yeah, sure, why not?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Maul did have Sith tatoos all over his body, but the horns are part of his physiology. Incedentally there's another of his species in the film, Jedi Councilman Eeth Koth. They're Zabraks.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I had heard that Eeth was the same species as Maul...but their horns don't really look the same. Guess it could be two different races within their species.
Maul was pretty much raised by Palpatine and trained from a very young age to kill Jedi. He was an assassin and a behind the scenes guy. The comic series about him taking out the Black Sun leadership is pretty cool and it really shows how Sidious uses him.
I really don't think that Maul will turn out to be Syfo-Dias.
Incidently, an early version of the cast list lists Syfo-Dias as a "Jedi imposter" hinting that he may have originally had a scene in the film. It also seems to suggest that it's not any of the characters we've seen before. If it is one of the characters we've already seen, I'm voting for Sidious in disguise.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I thought that too, maybe Sypho-dias was Sidious... sounds similar... Its's presumably also the same time the Sith came back on the scene...
Andrew
Posted by DeadCujo (Member # 13) on :
Maybe it was that little Yaddle lady.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
That guy with the horns looks so fake. At least Maul's horns look somewhat real.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
You're just round-horn-ist.
Do they have nice clear pics like that of all the Jedi (at least in the council) somewhere?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
starwars.com
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Was it ever stated anywhere that the Army of the Republic was going to be clone-based? I thought that when they finally voted for the Military Creation Act, they enlisted the clones because they were there, ready, willing and able.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
From what I got, the Senate was voting on whether or not to create an Army of the Republic, but I don't think they ever mentioned what the Senate's impression was of just how this army would be raised if it was voted for. I don't think they necessarily knew it would be clone based, and they definitely didn't know that the army was already being produced.
It's possible, though, that they did know the army would be clone based...maybe that's one of the reasons that so many people had a problem with it. But they still didn't know about the Clones on Kamino.
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